Talk:Shivaji/Archive 2

This is an archive of past discussions about Shivaji. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

Ready for debate

Thanks for invitation for debate regarding following points-- 1.Ramdas is one of Gurus 2.Dadoji is one of Gurus 3.No brahmin opposed his coronation. But please note that I am opposed to those also who says that 'only' Ramdas or Dadoji are his Guru.Both opinions are extreme and not accepted by majority of shivaji's follwers who are not bothere much about politics or caste based approach or even religion. ok.Let us debate but in a constructive manner so that we can understand the soul of shivaji's movements. ddbkasar203.153.40.49 05:57, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for positive response

Thanks for positive response. But please let me know what is the mode of debate means did you want to debate over internet or we can meet or some other correspondences.

I also want to ask as you quoted ‘But please note that I am opposed to those also who says that 'only' Ramdas or Dadoji are his Guru’ I want to ask who they who put such ‘extreme’ opinion are. As per others is who said ‘another extreme opinion’ we know they are people like NR Phatak, Jotyrao Phule, Dr. Bhimrao Ambedkar, MM Deshmukh, Jaising Rao Pawar, Hari Narke, Shreemant Kokate, ect. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 59.95.69.250 (talk) 17:31, 19 December 2006 (UTC).

Other Shivaji related pages

Hi all. I am making a list of other shivaji related pages down below. Please add more below. The idea is

We know what other pages are present
Normalize the information across the pages
Consider moving information from this article to these pages (if subject warrant. Also, will help reduce length of article)
Consider merging these pages into this article (if the content of these pages is small enough)

So here goes:

Shivaji's Forts —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mskadu (talk • contribs) 12:33, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Archives: 1

I am glad you are ready for debate. But first we have to decide the issues on which we want to debate. My points are 1. Ramdas , Konddev, and Coronation of Shivaji Maharaj

I denied the story of Ramdas as Guru of Shivaji I denied the story of Kondev as Guru or mentor of Shivaji I denied your story that Shivaji Maharaj’s coronation was not opposed by learned Bramhins of Maharashtra

These are my points if you accept it as debatable issue then I will sure arrange debate.

waiting for response

I am waiting for your response Kasar —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 59.95.70.237 (talk) 06:16, 1 January 2007 (UTC).

Ready for debate

Thanks for your invitation.We can debate on internet or if you want in person ,no problem .Tell me the place where you want to meet me , I will be there .I am in Mumbai, but can come for debate on shivaji in any town of world.Preferably select saturday or sunday .You can e mail me on dbkasar@yahoo.com dbkasarDbkasar 05:10, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Ready for debate

I was real busy now days but will send you mail soon, and yes thanks for accepting my debate invitation —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 59.95.75.27 (talk) 05:48, 25 January 2007 (UTC).

DOB? DOD?

Date of birth? Date of death? Aren't they supposed to be in first line? Szhaider 06:50, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Controversy of Celebration of Shivaji's Birth Day

Can someone put good details in this matter? It is a major issue raised nowadays! Also adding deatils about specific events like slaying Afzal Khan etc. would make article more coprehensive. Swami RamTirtha 20:09, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Corruption in India.

Is their any relation between corruption in India and attack on Surat in 1664 by Shivaji. vkvora 16:16, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't see any relation at all. Do you? Yogesh Sawant 09:03, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Nor do i. Should this section be removed as a part of cleanup? -Mayuresh 10:33, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Timeline of Shivaji's Life

Year Historical Event
1627 Shivaji born in the hill fort of Shivner.
1643-47 Shivaji overran the hill forts of Kondana, Torana and Raigarh.
1647 Shivaji's Guardian Dadaji Khondev died.
1656 Shivaji conquered Javli from Chandra Rao More.
1657 Shivaji : conflict with the Moghuls for the first time : raids into Ahmednagar.
1659 Afzal Khan of Bijapur was killed by Shivaji.
1660 Moghul Governor Shaista Khan occupied Pune
1663 Shivaji made an attack on Shaistakhan's harem and wounded him.
1664 Shivaji raided and looted Surat.
1665 Jai Singh besieged Purandar and forced Shivaji to sign the treaty of Purandar.
1666 Shivaji escaped from Agra.
1670 Shivaji attacked Surat for the second time.
1674 Shivaji crowned himself at Raighad and assumed the title of Maharaja Chhatrapati.
1676 Shivaji's last campaign against Jijapuri Karnataka. Captured Jinji and Vellore.
1680 Shivaji died.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Vkvora2001 (talk • contribs) 11:37, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Make this Entry Useful to Someone Seeking Information

This page falls far below the general wikipedia standards for neutrality and accuracy, rendering it useless for someone seeking information on the subject. I suggest the following, and surely there are those who can provide them:

citations of known sources for otherwise mythical events of Shivaji's life;
some mention at least of the current use of Shivaji as a hero by Hindu supremacist groups;
explicit statement of Shivaji's action as being (at least in part) directed against the then-dominant Muslim elements in Maharashtra.

Without such inclusions, statements like the one that he died at 12 Noon give the whole piece the tone of a fairy tale, not a biographic entry. Dekephart 23:38, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Shivaji : Wily Brave Warrior

It used to say “wily” (larger version available here). Someone, assumedly from the Archeological Survey of India (ASI), has replaced “wily” with “brave” as an adjective for Shivaji. I don’t know when, and I don’t know why, but I wonder if the ASI was covering its butt after recent communal unrest in Maharashtra concerning a book about Shivaji…

http://www.passtheroti.com/?p=193

http://lists.jrn.columbia.edu/read/messages?id=104582

http://www.google.co.in/search?hl=en&q=shivaji+wily&btnG=Search&meta=

vkvora 03:09, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Main page picture of Ch. Shivaji Maharaj

I think the earlier image of Ch. Shivaji Maharaj [on Sinhasan on Raigad] is more appropriate than the new image uploaded by [Redtigerxyz]. The painting of Mr. Dhurandhar is about Ch. Shivaji maharaj and his army, which could be added in appropriate section on the page. The main information box should contain the distinguishing image of the concerned person. Judging by these criteria, the image of Ch. Shivaji Maharaj on Sinhasan on Raigad is perfect match here. If nobody has objections to this, i will make the above change. Changes:

Put http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:RaigadFort5.jpg as main information box image of Ch. Shivaji Maharaj.
Put current http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Shivaji-Dhurandhar.jpg image in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shivaji#Revolution_in_military_organisation section.

Ashishbagate13 (talk) 05:47, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Shivaji and Surat

Article Shivaji on wikipedia is since 2002. There is no reference or information on Shivaji and Surat. vkvora 17:48, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

http://www.freeindia.org/biographies/greatlkings/shivaji/page2.htm

To build up such a vast kingdom independently and to rule it with an army and a navy, Shivaji needed lots of money. Where could he hope to obtain so much wealth for the purpose?

He decided to extract this money from Aurangzeb himself who was enjoying the wealth of this country.

In those days Surat was known to be almost the city of Kubera, the God of Wealth.

So he attacked Surat on one occasion and then emptied the city of its great wealth. vkvora 19:08, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I read few days back that the Marathas looted places like Surat, which should be brought to notice and only the positive points shouldn't be given. What? This is utter non-sense. If the Marathas didn't loot places like Surat, then from where does one expect the Marathas to get wealth to build the Marathas Empire. There weren't any banks or such kind of organisations to provide people with money!! Marathas under Shivaji Maharaj and afterwards didn't harm any women or children during their campaigns and that's what is important. There have been only handful of Empires in history which are idealised today and Maratha Empire is one of them. Infact, today we are very proud about the campaigns of Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj and other Maratha leaders which were carried with great strategic mobility and emense courage. ThanksKesangh (talk) 08:36, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Shivaji' Coronation

Hey!! the para containing Shivaji's coronation is missing detail as to Why Pandit

Gaga Bhat from Kashi was invited ?? The topic does not even mention that the then Brahmins Priests had opposed Shivaji's Coronation putting forth the fact that Parshuram had destroyed all the Kshatriyas. Thus denying to coronate him.Hence the necessity was felt to prove his line of birth and get him coronated by Gaga Bhatt. I suppose we all have learnt the same history and this matter is availabe in all Indian History books. Here i open a debate to all .. if none is interested i shall add the above details.

(Asro 14:57, 19 July 2007 (UTC))

1. How is the "line of birth" proved when somebody from hundreds of miles distance vists to a person whom he hasn't seen before? 2. If Parashuram destroying Kshatriyas is the cause of Brahmins opposing Raje's coronation, why did Gaga Bhatt accept the invitation. Wasn't he a Brahmin? 3. In Valmiki Ramayan, Lord Ram who took avatar in a Kshatriya dynasty defeated Parashurama. Knowing the complete thing, doesn't the so called reason put forth for Brahmins opposing Raje's coronation sound artificial? --Krishnarpana —Preceding unsigned comment added by Krishnarpana (talk • contribs) 15:25, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Whether it is true or false, I do recall reading in my primary school history text books mention about brahmins opposing Shivaji's coronation on whatever grounds. Further Gaga Bhatta from Kashi was indeed brought to coronate him. The text book, however, tried to maintain neutrality by mentioning reasons why Shivaji wanted coronated at all. Anyway, please take a look at maharashtra state board's 1st to 4th standard history text books for references.Tkul (talk) 02:24, 11 July 2008 (UTC)tkul

"Perhaps, that was the reason for his life long fight for independence. " Is there any point to keeping such a line in an encyclopedia? We don't need to make poetic comments , just the facts underline Maharaj's greatness —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.200.84.194 (talk) 13:46, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I oppose the inclusion of this matter under WP:UNDUE.--Redtigerxyz 12:11, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Random edit for inclusion in main article

I have moved a random edit (demoted one level) as a child section below to be reviewed and then added to main article by other editors -Mayuresh 12:39, 18 October 2007 (UTS)

Thanks. Please create a saprate article for this information. As you all know that i am blocked by anti maratha vandalist, i can't do it. What is more important that what King Shivaji had to say about his kingdom through his secretary. And not the modern physcu, syudo hustorian hve to say. For yor kind information, for the own and god sake i have stopped doing war and have moved to Bluwiki. I have created pages their as the world knows that all these valuable information was brought in to light by me Vishal Prakash Dudhane under the user name Vishal1976. I did't expect money or other rewards, but a whenever this information is used or mention anywher my copyrights should be respected. I have observed that many authors are making money, fame etc by useing my information. 1) http://bluwiki.com/go/96_Maratha_Clans

2)http://bluwiki.com/go/Khandoba

3) http://bluwiki.com/go/Jyotiba

Hi Vishal. Thanks for posting this information on Shivaji. However, in order to post this and other information to the main article we need to have citeable references to this information (such as books, newspapers, etc). In other words, it needs to be verifiable Also, can I request that you post the information you wish to have added to the talk page rather than the main article? Also, if the information is copyrighted, it cannot be included into wikipedia (see: GFDL)

-Mayuresh 09:27, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

This information is not copyrighted. It collected from a marathi book written by King Shivaji's own sectrey. Very important. ----- Vishal1976

thats nice, how about posting details of this book (title, ISBN, author, publisher, etc). We can use that to cite information. -Mayuresh 11:25, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Ans: Book Name:-Shree Shiv Chatrapatinche Saptaprakarnatmak Charitra. Author:-Malhar Ramrao Chitnis. Editor:- R. V. Herwadkar ISBN 81-85600-44-9 -Mayuresh , It was very insulting to ask me the ISBN No in errogant tone. Any way i let it go. From :- Vishal1976

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.247.252.189 (talk) 06:25, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

King Shivaji's army, forts and ministry

From Vishal Prakash Dudhane, User: - Vishal1976. Referance - Book Name:-Shree Shiv Chatrapatinche Saptaprakarnatmak Charitra. Author:-Malhar Ramrao Chitnis. Note:- Plese wikify or creat new article for this valuable information

King Shivaji's army, forts and ministry

1) Hansaji Hambirrao Mohite, Sarnobat. 2) Gomaji Naik Pansambal. 3) Santaji Raje Bhosale, illegitimate son of Shahaji Bhosale. 4) Sabaji Bhosale, Shinganpurkar. 5) Makaji Anandrao Palak Lek. 6) Ganoji Darekar. 7) Khanhoji Angre. 8) Santaji Ghorpade, Jumledar. 9) Dhanaji Jadhavrao. 10) Tailangrao, Page Sardar. 11) Vyonkoji Khandekar Jumledar. 12) Gondji Jagtap. 13) Santaji Jagtap. 14) Baji Nalge. 15) Maloji Nalge. 16) Sambhaji Kawaji.. 17) Harji Rahe Mahadik.. 18) Andrao Hftahajari. 19) Achaloji Raje Mahadik. 20) Rupaji Bhosale Sardar. 21) Mansing More. 22) Mahadaji Naik Pansambal. 23) Mudhoji Khajankar. 24) Kokate. 25) Amraji Pandhare. 26) Amrutrao Nimbalkar. 27) Hande. 28) Padaji Katkar. 29) Netaji Katkar. 30) Pilaji Shirke. 31) Tanaji Shirke. 32) Ganoji Shirke, son of Pilaji. 33) Sambhaji Shirke. 34) Jaising Palkar. 35) Parsoji Bhosale. 36) Bhujbalrao. 37) Arerao. 38) Bahirji Ghorpade. 39) Somvanshi. 40) Kanhoji Bhandawalkar. 41) Bahirji Naik Engle. 42) Khandoji Jagtap. 43) Sambhaji Katkar. 44) Suryaji Katkar. 45) Rayji Gadadhe. 46) Devji Ughade. 47) Keroji Pawar. 48) Parsoji Shitole. 49) Rayji Nalge. 50) Yesaji Khandekar. 51) Krushnaji Ghatge. 52) Krushnaji Pawar. 53) Maloji Nimbalkar. 54) Hiroji Shelke. 55) Khapne. 56) Rumaji Shirke. 57) Waghoji Shirke. 58) Tukoji Palkar. 59) Mahadji Naik Nimbalkar. 60) Yesaji Thorat. 61) Khanderao Dabhade. 62) Nemaji Shinde. 63) Khatoji Atole. 64) Bahirji Bandgar. 65) Balwantrao Devkante. 66) Bhavanrao Devkante. 67) Mahanarwar. 68) Kakde. 69) Kadu. 70) Balaji Naik Nimbalkar. 71) Dhamdhere. 72) Uchale. 73) Jaising Palkar. 74) Anandrao Nimbalkar. 75) Baji Mohite.

                               Chiefs of infantry and Maval infantry

1) Yesaji Kank, Sarnobat 2) Tanaji Malusare 3) Jiva Mahal 4) Sona Mahal 5) Rajpatil Yashwantrao 6) Ramji Vishwasrao 7) Khrushnaji Naik 8) Subhanji Naik 9) Tan Sawant 10) Kondaji Walkhale 11) Bajirao Pasalkar 12) Babaji Prabhu Deshpande, from Hirdas Mawal area 13) Thakur 14) Dhamale 15) Baji Murar Deshpande, from Mahad 16) Dhawale 17) Kudalkar 18) Malghade 19) Hiroji Rote 20) Ramaji More 21) Tukoji Lad 22) Tulaji Fharjad 23) Hiroji Bhangire 24) Yesaji Darekar 25) Son Salwi 26) Mudhoji Saswdekar 27) Khandoji Naik Jasud (Spy) 28) Bagrao 29) Dinkarrao 30) Harji Naik Jasud (Spy) 31) Suryaji Kale 32) Suryaji Malusare 33) Tanaji Duduskar 34) Pilaji Sanas 35) Jawji Parale 36) Mudhoji Fhurgawhane 37) Vithoji Kadu 38) Indraji Gade 39) Mahadji Fharjad 40) Hiroji Fharjad (Spy) 41) Nagoji Fharjad Naik 42) Habaji Fharjad 43) Parthe 44) Changoji Kadu 45) Krushnaji Bhosale 46) Dadaji Bapuji Deshpande 47) Chimnaji Bapuji Deshpande 48) Ran Dalwi 49) Mal Sawant 50) Dole 51) Jawji Mohne 52) Mudhoji Khanwalkar 53) Bajirao Darekar 54) Ganoji Kawale 55) Somaji Naik Banki 56) Bapuji Mandre 57) Ranoji Darekar

                                            Chiefs of navy

1) Daryasagar 2) Maynak Bhandari 3) Ibhramkhan

                                           Ministry (Ashtapradhan)

1) Moro Trimal Pingale, Peshwe 2) Ramchandra Nilkanth 3) Raghunathrao Panditrao 4) Annaji Datto 5) Janardanpant Hanmante, Majamdar 6) Dattajipant Wakenis 7) Balaji Sondev 8) Niraji Raoji 9) Pralhad Niraji 10) Shivaji Shankar 11) Krushnajipant Mathure 12) Kashipant Mathure Vishwasrao 13) Krushnaji Sakhaji 14) Shamji Awaji Karkhanis 15) Yesaji Gowind 16) Shamji Naik Punde, Potdar 17) Sankraji Nilkanth 18) Trimbak Bhaskar 19) Pantaji Gopinath Bokil 20) Annaji Rangnath Malekar 21) Vitthal Pildev Garudkar 22) Timaji Keshw Sabnis 23) Konherpant 24) Govindbhat Upadhye 25) Balji Awaji Chitnis 26) Chimnaji Awji Chitnis, Dafhtardar 27) Prabhakar Upadhye 28) Shivbhat Upadhye 30) Raghunath Ballal Korde 31) Balaji Raghunath and Narhar Ballal Sabnis 32) Rawji Sonnath Subhedar 33) Vyonkoji Datto 34) Visajipant Mathure 35) Krushn Joshi 36) Narhar Anandrao 37) Balambhat Gosawi Upadhye 38) Shamraj Padyanabh

                                                        Forts and States King Shivaji own.

A) State Satara and Wai.

1) Satara 2) Parali (Sajjangad) 3) Vairatgad 4) Kamalgad 5) Pandawgad 6) Chandangad 7) Vandangad 8) Nandgiri (Kalyangad) 9) Vardhangad 10) Mahimgad 11) Tathawda (Santoshgad)

B) State Karad.

1) Vasantgad 2) Mchindragad 3) Bhushangad 4) Karad station

C) State Panhala

1) Panhala 2) Pavangad 3) Khelna (Vishalgad) 4) Gajendragad 5) Rangana (Prasidhagad) 6) Bhudhargad 7) Bhivgad 8) Pargad 9) Bhupalgad 10) Madangad 11) Gagangad 12) Bawdagad

D) State Maval Shyadri

1) Rohidgad(Vichitragad) 2) Purandar (Daulatmangal) 3) Rajgad 4) Dategad 5) Visapur 6) Lohgad 7) Narayangad 8) Vasota (Vyaghragad) 9) Kelanj 10) Rudramala 11) Kondhana (Sinhagad) 12) Torna (Prachandgad) 13) Kuwari 14) Tung (Kathingad) 15) Tikona (Vitanggad) 16) Rajmachi (two parts- Shrivardhan and Manranjan) 17) Shivneri 18) Morgiri

E) State Konkan Ground and sea forts

1) Malvan (Sindhudurg) 2) Vijaydurg (Gheria) 3) Jaydurg 4) Ratnagiri 5) Suvarnadurg 6) Khanderi 7) Underi 8) Kulaba 9) Rajkot 10) Anjanvel (Gopalgad) 11) Revdanda 12) Raigad (Rairi) 13) Pali (Sarasgad) 14) Kalanidhigad 15) Arnala 16) Suranggad 17) Mahipatgad 18) Mahimandan 19) Sumargad 20) Rasalgad 21) Karnala 22) Bhorap (Sudhagad) 23) Balmgad 24) Saranggad 25) Manikgad 26) Sidgad 27) Mandangad 28) Balgad 29) Lingana 30) Prachitigad 31) Samangad 32) Kangori ( Mangalgad) 33) Pratapgad 34) Talgad 35) Talgad 36) Ghosalgad (Virgad) 37) Birwadigad 38) Mahimantgad

F) State Konkan

1) Bhairavgad 2) Prabalgad 3) Avchitgad (Mendhe) 4) Mandangad 5) Kumbhagad 6) Manohargad 7) Sagargad 8) Ratnagad 9) Subhangad 10) Mitragad 11) Prlhadgad 12) Makrandgad 14) Sahajgad 15) Simeragad 16) Mahidhargad 17) Sehgoggad 18) Bhaskargad 19) Mahuli 20) Kawnai

G) Army Headquarters (Thani)

1) Kalyan 2) Supe 3) Shirval 4) Bhivandi 5) Khatav 6) Miraj 7) Wai 8) Baramati 9) Tasgaon 10) Karad 11) Chakan 12) Karvir

H) State Bagalgan

1) Saleri 2) Muleri 3) Nahva (Navha) 4) Ahiwantgad (Sarp Killa) 5) Ghodap 6) Kaner (Kanhera) 7) Harsal

I) State Trimbak etc

1) Trimbak 2) Ramjes 3) Gadgada 4) Chawandas 5) Chandvad 6) Harindragad 7) Markandeygad 8) Karola 9) Avandha (Aaundha) 10) Bahula 11) Harshan 12) Jivdhan 13) Ravlagad 14) Javlagad 15) Hadsar 16) Machangad 17) Manranjan 18) Siddhagad 19) Manohargad 20) Mruggad 21) Sabalgad 22) Pattagad (Vishramgad) 23) Rajdehar 24) Ankai 25) Tankai

J) State Fhonde Bidnoor

1) Kot Fonde 2) Kot Kadwal 3) Kot Shiveshwar 4) Kot Kahoor 5) Kot Ankola 6) Kot Manglur 7) Kot Bakar 8) Kot Kathor 9) Kot Kahoor 10) Kot blyal (Halyal) 11) Kot Labgre 12) Kot Krushnagiri

H) State Karnatak etc, State Jagdevgad.

1) Jagdevgad 2) Varungad 3) Gagangad 4) Sudarshangad 5) Ramyagad 6) Siddhagad 7) Mallikarjungad 8) Nandigad 9) Prabalgad 10) Martandgad 11) Dirghapalligad 12) Bhairavgad 13) Maharjgad 14) Krushnagiri 15) Jawadigad 16) Kasturigad 17) Mangalgad 18) Ramgad

I) State Shrirangpattan

1) Kot Dhrampuri 2) Kot talegiri 3) Kalapgad 4) Harihargad 5) Sundargad 6) Mahinadgad 7) Kot Garud 8) Kotwallgod 9) Ranjangad 10) Pramodgad 11) Kot Athnur 12) Kor Alur 13) Manohargad 14) Kot Tripadur 15) KotShamal 16) Bhavanidurg 17) Kot Dutajati 18) Kot Viraden 19) Kot Amrapur 20) Kot Lakhanur 21) Kot Changmal 22) Kot Tul 23) Sur

J) State Yelur district anf forts

1) Kot Arkat 2) Kot Trimal 3) Kot Trikolnur 4) Kot Lahnur 5) Kot Dalnapattan 6) Garjangad 7) Kot Triwadi 8) Kailasgad 9) Rasalgad 10) Karnatakgad 11) Yashwantgad 12) Chetpavhalligad 13) Mukhyagad 14) Prangad 15) Sajra Gad 16) Palkot 17) Chanji Barakot 18) Sagargad 19) Kolabgad 20) Madbind Gad 21) Mahimandan Gad 22) Kot Vrindavan 23) Gojara Gad 24) Dubhe Gad 25) Anurgad

K) State Vangad etc Sub Districts

1) Vangad 2) Gahangad 3) Simdurg 4) Naldurg alias Miragad 5) Srimant Durg 6) Shrigadan Gad 7) Parakramgad 8) Nargund alias Mahantgad 9) Kanakadri Gad 10) Brmha Gad 11) Chitradurg 12) Prasanna Gad 13) Kopal Gad 14) Bahadur Binda 15) Vyankat Gad 16) Gandhrav Gad 17) Dhakegad 18) Surpre Gad 19) Hadapsargad 20) Kanchan Gad 21) Achalgiri Gad 22) Madan Gad

L) State Kolhar Balapur.

1) Kolhar 2) Brmha Gad 3) Vadanna Gad 4) Bhaskar Gad 5) Preivar Gad 6) Somshekhar Gad 7) Medgiri 8) Chen Gad 9) Ganesh Gad 10) Khal Gad 11) Bidnoorkot 12) Malkolharkot 13) Mahipal Gad 14) Mrugmad Gad 15) Hatmangal Gad 16) Manchakprakash 17) Bhimgad 18) Shrivardhangad 19) Ambenirai Gad 20) Budhalafhot 21) Manikgad 22) Nandigad 23) Thakur Gad 24) Saras Gad 25) Malhar Gad 26) Bhumandal Gad 27) Birukot

M) State Chandi

1) Rajgad 2) Chaingad 3) Krushnagiri 4) Madonmattagad 5) Arvanloo Gad 6) Kalakot

Vandalism, my edits are visible but not recorded in history-- Vishal1976

Vandalism, my edits are visible but not recorded in history-- Vishal1976 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.247.140.252 (talk) 07:02, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

SAIBAI

Saibai was the first wife of Ch.Shivaji. She was married to him when she was seven years old and he was eleven years old.Before marriage her name was Rajas Nimbalkar. She was the source of strength for Ch. Shivaji. Both of them played chess,and this was how Ch.shivaji got ideas to win a battle.

They also had a daughter named Sakhubai who was elder to their son Sambhaji,who was married to the son of Saibai's brother Baji, who was brought back to hinduism by Ch. Shivaji.

Saibai by nature was a jovial person. She died at the age of 26, after giving birth to their son sambhaji,at the fort of "RAJGARH",which was the capital of the maratha empire at that time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vikkyvikrant (talk • contribs) 07:29, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

This post may be possible vandalism.

1) Both of them played chess,and this was how Ch.shivaji got ideas to win a battle.---- May be true, but later part that Shivaji gets ideas sounds vandalism.

2) She died at the age of 26, after giving birth to their son sambhaji--- Sambhaji's mother died when he was two years old. --- Vishal1976 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.247.141.252 (talk) 10:35, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

No reference to Ramdas Swamy (saint ramdas)

There is no reference to Ramdas Swamy , Shivaji's spiritual and political mentor in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vdeshmuk (talk • contribs) 05:57, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I am also trying to find references to meetings between Shivaji and Ramdas Swamy. In the article titled Ramdas Swamy, it is mentioned that there is no reference to meeting between the two; however, I have read a book (I do not remember the author or such details anymore) mentioning several meetings between Shivaji and Ramdas Swamy.Tkul (talk) 02:05, 11 July 2008 (UTC)tkul Communalism & ideas for improvement

Shiv Sena, Sambhaji Brigade etc

Is there no mention of the takeover of his legacy by fundamentalist groups like Shiv Sena, Sambhaji Brigade etc? I feel they should be mentioned, but it should be made very clear that these are groups with an entirely different ideology, trying to use his name for political gain. --ti 16:39, 4 June 2008 (UTC) Discovery of India comments on Shivaji How about adding those to the main page?Tkul (talk) 02:28, 11 July 2008 (UTC)Tkul

Contributions by 146.145.36.41

An anonymous editor is continuaosly readding some of the stuff that I had removed. SO let me explain why I have removed this section. the article is about Shivaji , so it does not really make sens to mention what Godhkindh means. Also some of the content was very "prose" in style which is not acceptable in Wikipedia. Also the Death and Succession section goes too much into detail about the future whereas it should ideally just mention what the heading says : death and succession. Hope that helps. --Deepak D'Souza (talk • contribs) 18:07, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

1/3 of Shivaji army Muslim?

This is repeated, almost in a cliche manner throughout the article.

The article is already scarcely cited, but what evidence is there to support the idea that 1/3 of Shivaji's army was Muslim? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.217.174.166 (talk) 18:49, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

The claim that Shivaji was anti-Muslim is a projection derived from current (especially Hindu nationalist) struggles for political identity and it does not hold true in the historical context of the 18th century. At that time religious identities were not that relevant for defining socio-cultural and political affiliations as they are sometimes today. It is of course true, that the vast majority of adversaries that shivaji fought were Muslims or were at least associated to Muslim rulers. That said one has to realize that this was not a sign of a religiously motivated conflict, but of a struggle for political power. To establish an independent kingdom in those times necessitated opposing the dominant political elites which were mainly Muslim.

Also, Shivajis referral to Hindu rituals during in coronation and his patronage for Hindu religious institutions were more a move to assume political legitimacy for his claim to power than characteristic of a conscious rejection of Muslim religion and culture.

Thus to claim that Shivaji was inherently anti-Muslim is a distortion of the historical situation. The question whether there were Muslim soldiers in Shivajis army has to be answered with recourse to the historical sources and not on the basis of ideologically founded propositions. I do not feel competent to deliver such an answer, however a Muslim presence in Shivajis army seems plausible to me as they possessed a significant military expertise which was an attractive asset for a ruler like Shivaji. The amount of Muslims as 1/3 of Shivajis soldiers seems high to me, but not entirely unrealistic. On the other hand there were of course also Hindu soldiers in the armies of the Mughals as well as in those of the Sultanates of Bijapur and Golconda, again a testimony against clear-cut religious identifications as the basis of political loyalty. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.206.86.86 (talk) 11:29, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Section dedicated to Shivaji's family ties???

I do see a need to have an section which provides details about Shivaji's family. Basic contents that come to my mind would be a listing of immediate family members, as in parents, siblings, wives and children. As an encyclopedia article, the information would be required for the sake of completness

The current article provides very little information as to when, where and how Shivaji got married to the various listed wives, their maiden last names or their family backgrounds. The situation is worse when it comes information about Shivaji's daughters, no names or information about the families they were married into. Family ties were a very important strategic decision in those days and so I see a need for a new section, any opinions?

--Kedar (talk) 00:41, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Definitely needed. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 12:55, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Why such childish doubts

Well the above user seems to be highly ignorant about Maratha history. The article is not a result of story-telling but is supported by concrete proofs and references. As far as speculation is concerned you are free to do so but that won't change the Maratha history. Foreigners have written about Shivaji Maharaj (most famous being the 'History of Mahrattas' by Grant Duff), the books written by Marathi authors are backed by solid evidences and so are the websites. I advise you not to bang your head against the wall doubting the authenticity of the article and believe the greatness of Shvaji Maharaj.Kesangh (talk) 06:47, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

I may not wholly agree with the comments by Archaic Indian but I understand why he thinks so. The article is riddled with peacock terms. (The message below is a telling pointer). I tried to clean it up and make it more suitable for Wikipedia but an anon user kept reverting back. And I am not the only one who tried and gave up. The entire article seems like a copy of the History textbook i studied in school. Too long , any reader will loose interest. Add to that the constant insertion of glorifying terms, imbalanced editing and incoheerent writing. A pity that the article of such an important leader has a C Class rating. Ironically it is Shivaji's fans who are preventing this article from reaching FA status.--Deepak D'Souza 09:51, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Show some respect to Maharaj.

Shivaji Maharaj needs to be addressed/refered as 'Shivaji Maharaj' ONLY and not as shivaji. There are multiple instances in this article where Maharaj is referred as shivaji only , which is my view is a serious disrespect to Great Maharaj. Can anybody please take up this issue with the editors and get every instance replaced by Shivaji Maharaj .

Thanks ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.112.84.138 (talk) 12:23, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Does't matter what you think, Wikipedia needs to maintain NPOV. AMbroodEY Reloaded 08:20, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Biased Article

Almost at all the places in the article "Shivaji" has been referred as "Shivaji Maharaj". I don't remember he was ever conferred a title of "Maharaj". It is another story that "Maharashtrians" like to refer him by the same but history should not be mixed with emotion.

Shivaji, was never an independent ruler even till his death. This can be verified by having a look at his tax system and revenue collection method. He was indeed instrumental in laying the foundation of a strong Maratha empire but his story and that exactly what it is a STORY is over rated and exaggerated. The references stated here are nothing but from Books written by Hero worshipers.

Shivaji is a hero in common Maharashtrian home and his exploits and achievements mentioned here have their roots in folklore. Most of the times in the article appropriate references are missing, statements true for a particular region (South of Deccan) generalized for the entire Indian Sub-continent, and dubious and contradictory historical claims presented as matter of facts. The writings have been twisted to suit the author's perception of the Shivaji.

References mentioned here should be from a more dependable and neutral sources. 122.163.52.8 (talk) 20:17, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Shivaji was coronated as King and hence the title Maharaj. The history of Shivaji and Maratha empire is well documented by serious historians so calling it a story or folklore is unjustified. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrtpolice (talk • contribs) 12:35, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

You lack in your knowledge of history. Maharaj is a title given to him in his coronation, which was common for all Indian kings. Shivaji had established a free rule and was coronated as chattrapati by priest of kashi vishwanath temple declaring shivaji as representative of free hindu state. The bundelas got their inspiration of free state from Shivaji.Read Raja shiv chatrapati - book by Baba saheb purandare His policies of tax collection etc were supreme ways of political tact of making people in other states feel what swaraj can do. Recent politics defaming shivaji by typecasting him to marathis should be stopped and shivaji should be proclaimed as true hindu leader. Vivekanada describes him as ideal ruler in past 1000 years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.91.207.30 (talk) 11:46, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Translation

"Aadhi lagn Kondanyacha, mag majhya Raibacha" is translated as "First Kondana will be conquered, then Raiba will marry", which possibly have the correct jist. However it would be nice to have a verbatim translation available with it, so that the pun/humour of the statement will be clear. It would be nice if some marathi editor does this job. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pallab1234 (talk • contribs) 12:17, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Title

If possible, somebody please change the heading of the page to Chhatrapati Shivaji as i feel the name "Shivaji" dosent show the deserved respect and awe to this great warrior king who fought for the rights and prosperity of the poor people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.138.109.246 (talk) 14:06, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Introduction

I feel the introduction needs to be re-written to better represent the topic. For example, see Mahatma Gandhi. Any suggestion. I feel it is important that the intro should talk about what makes Shivaji so important to the Indian history? One suggestion could be Swarajya? Any other thoughts/ suggestions? -Mayuresh 20:57, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Reply to Controversy of Shivaji's b day

There is no more controversy regarding birth date .People are celebrating as per their poitical agenda.Nothing else.dbkasarDbkasar Chhatrapati Shivaji Raje Bhosle (Marathi: छत्रपती शिवाजीराजे भोसले) Born on February 19, 1627, and Died on March 4, 1680. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.182.89.168 (talk) 09:19, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Kannada origins

Shivaji was a gujarby origin, the High court of Maharashtra and the Supreme court has given verdicts regarding the same in 1946, 1980 and 1992. I dont understand why people are trying to make him kannada, brahmin or rajput... Pls see the link provided http://indiankanoon.org/doc/21602/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashokharsana (talk • contribs) 04:29, 16 May 2010 (UTC) I have read various accounts in reliable sources about Shivaji's Kannada origins. Can somebody please add it to the article. It will help greatly to improve the article and may be make it FA. Also we can add information about his pillage and plunder of sorrounding areas too. Some information can also be found on the Chattisgarh government website. Also the Marathas ransacking of Hindu temples, like the one at Sringeri(which Tipu Sultan had to help rebuild) which Adi Shankaracharya is said to have established. Thank you. Sarvagnya 17:14, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Excuse me... pillage and plunder are POV terms. Sources attesting Kannada origins are vague. Given the appropriation of Shivaji's legacy by Hindutvaadis, its unsurprising that many people would like to claim him for their own.

As for improving this article, be my guest. I've been mainting this article for over 2 years, only to have unsourced gibberish added every other week. I'd stay away from here given the fact that i'm busy with A Levels and also some people have of late begun stalking my edits. Amey Aryan DaBrood^© 18:52, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I read few days back that the Marathas looted places like Surat, which should be brought to notice and only the positive points shouldn't be given. What? This is utter non-sense. If the Marathas didn't loot places like Surat, then from where does one expect the Marathas to get wealth to build the Maratha Empire. There weren't any banks or such kind of organisations to provide people with money!! Marathas under Shivaji Maharaj and afterwards didn't harm any woman, child or innocent person during their campaigns and that's what is important. There have been only handful of Empires in history which are idealised today and Maratha Empire is one of them. Infact, today we are very proud about the campaigns of Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj and other Maratha leaders which were carried with great planning, execution, excellent strategic mobility and immense courage. ThanksKesangh (talk)

I am not sure if pillage and plunder can be POV terms. Historians use them all the time. If they are, then what is the NPOV euphemism for 'pillage and plunder'? You tell me. Also, I've never stalked yours or anybody's edits ever. Neither will I in future. I usually edit articles in my own field of interest and I have a passing interest in Marathi history too. I am not talking from hearsay and if and when I do make a edit to this article, I will surely come with reliable sources to quote.

As for people appropriating Shivaji as their own for his Hindutva credentials, I can assure you that neither myself nor Kannadigas(or anybody in Southern India for that matter) are in the least bit interested in doing that. The only reason I raised this topic was because I thought it was encyclopedic and warranted atleast a mention somewhere in the article(I am not asking you to fill the entire article with it). Anyway, I'll hold my peace for now and next time I drop by here, I'll bring my sources along. Sarvagnya 19:52, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Just a google serch revelas at least 2 reliable sources [1][2], all what one has to do is continue this search on JSTOR too see whether there are any other reaserch articles on Shivaji's origins that say he may be of what ever origin Taprobanus 15:55, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

There is no doubt that Shivaji Maharaj was a Maratha and that's it! I am going nuts on thinking that why some immature people are trying so much on deceiving the world about the Kannada origins of Shivaji Maharaj. Why don't we emphasise on Shivaji Maharaj's works and his achievements. It would be better if this page isn't used for such non-sense discussion. The people who served the Maratha Empire were Marathas and not Kannadas. Thus, people should stop taking undue credit or appreciation of the glorious Maratha history. ThanksKesangh (talk)

I totally agree with kesangh , where the hell did kanndigas come into this ; Raje SHIVAJI was a Maratha and thats it ; Reliable? snort,, Taprobanus with all due respect your article from The Hindu contains gems like: One such book tracing the origin of Chatrapathi Shivaji Maharaj is by the famous historian Dr. Ramachandra Chintamana Dhere, popularly known as Ra. Chim. Dhere. His seminal work on the subject Shikara Shinaganapracha Shambhu Mahadeva has been brought to Kannada as an abridged version of the work by famous Kannada writer Dr. Saraju Katkar as Shivaji Mula Kannada Nela meaning the origin of Shivaji is Kannada soil.

I totally agree with kesangh , where the hell did kanndigas come into this ; Raje SHIVAJI was a Maratha and thats it ; at that time there were no state borders ; Chatttrapati Shivaji established his rule even over Jinjee and Tanjore, but that does not make him a Tamil ; Please dont quote any vague source out of context ; Raje Shivaji had nothing to do with Kannadigas ; and it does not speak well of the Kannadigas to make such statements ; rather they should try to find genuine Kannadiga heroes.

For a supposedly a famous scholar, his name gives a grand total of 1 Google hit. [3]

In fact now there is a massive movement to reclaim Shivaji from rightist forces like Shivasena in Maharastra by Sambhaji brigade, a militant non-Brahminical force, by citing the shudrahood of Chatarpati Shivaji.

Sambhaji Brigade is not non-Brahminical, it is virulently anti-Brhaminical. Shiv Sena has always been an OBC i.e so-called shudra party. There are two types of Marathas, 96 kuli Marathas and Kunbi Marathas. 96 K Marathas have traditionally been at the ruiling and land owning caste. Sambhaji bridage is largely seen as a Kunbi reaction to this... Kunbis since they are Marathas are regarded as forward castes, hence they cant avail of reservations. Also i didnt even bother with your other link, that was a blog site! I doubt whether JSTOR will yeild anything, anyways i'll try to go down to Guilford campus on friday just to check...

Shivaji's orgins are a subject of lot of controversy in Maharashtra, mostly between 96k Marathas, Kunbi Marathas and Brahmins... Sources testifying to Shivaji's Rajput ancestry are vague. Marathas have always been a heterogenous caste group. There have been many instances of petty ruling families marrying into other ethnic groups, case in point Scindia.

Oh and Sarvagnya, i didnt mean to accuse you of stalking me, those comments were meant for someone else. Salud...

Amey Aryan DaBrood^© 17:14, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Amey, dont feed the trolls. Cheers Parthi ^{talk/contribs} 22:33, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I am thankful to all who maintain this article and request to not entertain trolls and vandalisers like sarvagnya or dineshkannambadi. Dont be surprised if he says whole mankind have kannadi origins. Their lack of glorious history is the reason they speak dirt like this. These shameless self-congratulatory kannadis have no intrest in contributing to wikipedia and know only to defame other states's history. Meanwhile i will see how to deal with this kannadi jerks.

Oh i forgot to mention sources which this sarvagnya is talking abnoutl. It is likes kamath and whatever which only idiotic kannadis like sarvagnya and kannambadi read. Let him try using that shit here and face the 'Maratha music'. Also i'd like sarvagnya to talk about kannadis and not act like spokesman of whole south india .we look the claims of shivaji maharaj being kannadi as insult, given the inferiority complex and frustrations of kannadis. Is this the reason u interfere in other's history?

Looks like there is a lot of incivility assuming bad faith and wholesale attack on ethnic groups by an anonymous editor all in return for a simple question and answer that seems to have published material supporting it. When the editors concerned have decided to do the reasonable action under these conditions and have decided to check for further reliable sources, the flippant commentary by others is absolutely not required and potentially against WP:ATTACK. The commentary by the anon insulting an entire ethnic group has to be taken to WP:ANI Taprobanus 13:08, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I apologize sir. U dont know the history of these few kannadi editors who are creating a rift and insulting other communities by belittling their history. These comments are meant to tell them that they should stop their ill-work else others can play the same game.

I appreciate your candor, the best solution would be to strike out the comments that may be construed as racist attack on Kannadigas. Thanks 22:48, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

The article I had read(I guess it was India Today 2003) mentioned that Shivaji's clan was related to Billava Yadavs of Karnataka. I dont remeber whether it actually said that he was of Kannadiga origin. Ill see if anything comes up. Btw Ameys stalker wasnt meant to be Sravagna. He thinks I am stalking him!--Deepak D'Souza (talk • contribs) 13:14, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Shivaji's mother, Jijabai, was originally from the Jadava clan. Supposedly, whe was descended from the Seuna Yadava Dynasty of Devagiri, which ruled before Ala-ud-Din Khilji's invasion. The Seuna Yadavas were related to another Yadava dynasty, the Hoysalas of southern Karnataka. This is probably where the supposedly "Kannada" origin comes from. It is doubtful, and even if it existed, it is simply too remote to be of any significance. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.244.147.177 (talk) 01:51:02, August 19, 2007 (UTC)

Whether Shivaji was of ethnic Kannada origin is doubtful. However, he inherited some of the Kannadiga's legacy. Before the rise of Shivaji and the Maratha Empire, the Vijayanagara Empire of Karnataka was the dominant Hindu power in India. While the Kannadigas and Telugus of Vijayanagara were valiantly defending Hindu civilization from the Muslim invaders, Shivaji's Maratha ancestors were serving under the banner of Vijayanagara's chief enemy, the Bijapur Sultanate. After Vijayanagara fell to Bijapur/Golconda in 1565, the Marathas(including Shivaji's father, Shahji Bhonsle), were taking land that once belonged to Kannadigas and Telugus. Shivaji was the noble exception to this rule in that he upheld the honor of the Hindu faith by opposing Bijapur and attempting to re-establish Hindu power in South India. His campaigns into Tamil Nadu (Vellore/Jinji) are evidence of this. Thus, even though Shivaji was certainly not a Kannadiga, his empire filled the political void that was left after the fall of Vijayanagara. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.244.147.177 (talk) 01:42:03, August 19, 2007 (UTC)

I totally agree with kesangh , where the hell did kanndigas come into this ; Raje SHIVAJI was a Maratha and thats it ; at that time there were no state borders ; Chatttrapati Shivaji established his rule even over Jinjee and Tanjore, but that does not make him a Tamil ; Please dont quote any vague source out of context ; Raje Shivaji had nothing to do with Kannadigas ; and it does not speak well of the Kannadigas to make such statements ; rather they should try to find genuine Kannadiga heroes.

Authenticity of this whole article

I read the whole article and i must congratulate the writer about his attempt and fantastic art of story telling. Now coming to the point i am speculative about the content and it seems like this whole article has been tailored to exaggerate the personality of the maratha warrior. Very sparsely links have been provided and that to of websites of marathi origin. Everyone of us is very well acquainted with the picture that a marathi person bears in his heart about the warrior but is ain't fair to misguide the mob just for the sake of self interest and i strongly discourage this attempt made by whosoever. I request all of you responsible people to take a initiative for writing a new article.

student IIT bombay —Preceding unsigned comment added by Archaic indian (talk • contribs) 17:32, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Your borderline racist comments about Marathi people notwithstanding, I can assure you that this article may well be exaggerated, but any serious student of Indian history can attest to the veracity of basic plotline of the article. AMbroodEY Reloaded 08:23, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Archaic indian's statements to some extent. It is really hard to separate fact from opinion in this article. Please supply more references for this article. And who wrote that Shivaji's mother slept around? Where is this information coming from? If the contributors of this article want Shivaji to be taken seriously, please delete your opinions and clean up this article. I would do it myself but I feel I am unqualified. I think it is best left up to you guys who seem to like Shivaji (a bit too much, perhaps?). I look forward to a cleaner, well referenced article to learn about Shivaji.--Josettpat (talk) 17:35, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

I have removed the defamatory sentence. Doing a cleanup is pointless, his fans will come and decorate it again. But if you are intersested you can take a try at it. --Deepak D'Souza (talk) 05:58, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Birth date

The notice "STOP vandalizing the dates. If you disagree, *provide references* for alternate dates on discussion page to get these changed!" is a little ironic, since all the references provided in the article for the birth date give contradictory information, or mention that it is disputed:

Shivaji and his times By Sir Jadunath Sarkar: says that there are no contemporary records of Shivaji's exact birthdate, and many records give it as 16 April 1927
The Gazetter of Maharashtra State gives the date as May 1627 ("n May 1627,in Shivner fortnear Junnar, Jijibai Shahaji's wife gave birth to Shivaji, the founder of the Maratha empire.")
Google Docs are inaccessible, and are not WP:RS anyway

The Government of Maharashtra accepts 19 February as the official birthdate of Shivaji, while some other sources disagree. So, I am editing the article accordingly to incorporate this information. utcursch | talk 13:42, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

want change in title of this page

I want to request page developer(writer) and wikipedia that whenever they mention name of our great king Shivaji Maharaj .....Please mention it with respect ...Dont mention only shivaji. He is not an ordianry man...and we indians never call or mention our elders by their names directly(atleast to whome we respect a lot)...so I request u all plz mention him with respect...just change name to Chharapati Shivaji Maharaj.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eshwari27 (talk • contribs) 16:54, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi Eshwari27, welcome to Wikipedia. is no single "writer" for any Wikipedia article. You are equal to any other editor, new or experienced, as long as you collaborate in the spirit of Building an encyclopedia and follow some important guidlines. Kindly check out the welcome message on your talk page for links to these guidlines and tutorials.

We share your respect of national leaders like Shivaji. However Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and follows a different style of writing than, say, what is used in history textbooks. Wikipedia rules prevent the use of honorifics in biographies. That is why this article is only titiled suing the common name "Shivaji" instead of the full title "Chatrapati Shivaji". Similarly the article on Gandhiji is titled Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi and not Mahatma Gandhi. Hope that helps. --Deepak D'Souza (talk) 17:57, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Terrible Article

This is not an encyclopedia article, but rather a hagiography. Someone who doesn't have a vested interest in denigrating or promiting Shivaji should write this article. There is no mention, for example, of his serving as a vassal of Aurangzebfor some time. This article paints Shivaji as a Christ-like Hindu figure, which is horribly incorrect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.255.47.252 (talk) 02:41, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree. Before my arrival on this page I had absolutely no knowlege of this subject and, sadly, afterwards I find myself in the same situation. This article is so stuffed with peacock terms and unverified assertions I simply don't know where to begin. When I came across a citation I was sufficiently surprised as to follow it up; needless to say, citing a popular fiction film as evidence in an Encyclopedic article is ludicrous. Ironically, the absurd wealth of unverified detail makes this article useful for only the most superficial of superficial overviews. This article is in need of a drastic overhaul, one which I'm afraid to say I'm completely unqualified to give. Looking back at the discussion portal I see the few people who are (at least to my unknowing eye) knowlegable on the subject and as concerned as I am with its systemic flaws massively outnumbered by chauvinistic knee-jerk reactants. To those dedicated few trying to rectify this situation I can only say good luck! I don't envy you your task. This is one of the few occasions Wikipedia has let me down badly enough that I'm going to have to go and look up this subject in a standard encyclopedia. What a shame. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.88.171.211 (talk) 01:28, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Anachronistic use of the term Hindavi Swarajya is misleading

I have been conducting some research into Shivaji lately and I feel that to portray him as a proponent of Hindavi Swarajya is anachronistic and highly problematic. Hindavi is a very general term, which no person within the bounds of what is now modern India is likely to have used as a term to identify themselves in the 17th century. In the way it is used here, Hindavi is essentially standing in for the modern nation state of India, which Shivaji could not possibly have anticipated or experienced.

If people editing this article wish to use Shivaji as a symbol of nation-building that is quite acceptable but they need to be explicit about it and also make clear that this is a modern interpretation of a decidedly pre-modern period. I think this is only fair given Wikipedia's intention to provide unbiased information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.111.108.59 (talk) 12:17, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

"Icon of Hinduism"

An anonymous user is trying to add the following statement about Shivaji:

"... remembered as an icon of Hinduism,he showed the world the strenght of the Hindu people when the Maratha empire he founded later on went on to destroy the Mughal Empire and Muslim rule in India,he is idolised in Maharashtra and respected throughout the nation as one of the greatest children of Bharat."

This may be true, but it cannot be included in Wikipedia without citation support from one or reliable sources. The article is currently semi-protected to encourage discussion of this statement, and the sources that may exist to support it. --Orlady (talk) 15:48, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

While Shivaji was a deeply religious man and shared the resentment of a large majority of Hindus to Muslim rule and is an icon to Hindu nationlists; he was also known for his fair treatment to people of other faiths. Shivajis motivation wasnt just religious but also ethnic. So an exceesive emphasis on his religious motives is n\unnecessary. --Deepak D'Souza (talk) 08:26, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Tell the truth

Say it as it is! Shivaji Maharaj defeated the Muslims and established Hindu kingdom, India is now a predominantly Hindu country because of him! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.65.244.6 (talk) 01:11, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

You seem to be an expert on the subject, I'm sure the article needs one. I'm certain you can find reliable sources and edit the article. --Muhandes (talk) 05:48, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

citation needed for shivaji shahaji bhosale

Here is the citation very well known to all those who know about shivaji.The sanskrit verse from Rajmudra i.e.Royal seal of Shivaji is as --'Pratipchandralekhev vardhishnu vishvandita Shahsyno Shivsaishyamudra bhadray rajate.It means 'This royal seal of shivaji, son of Shahaji is well respected and his kingdom is growing like a crescent of moon.So i request to add'Rajmudra'for citation. I will wait for a week for the person who has nicely editing this article ;afterward i will add dbkasar —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.153.44.130 (talk) 07:04, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

I will be glad to try to help, let me see if I understand. You are saying the rajmudra (royal seal) of Shivaji has the following Sanskrit verse : "प्रतिपच्चंद्रलेखेव वर्धिष्णुर्विश्ववंदिता शाहसुनोः शिवस्यैषा मुद्रा भद्राय राजते।", and that it means "This royal seal of shivaji, son of Shahaji is well respected and his kingdom is growing like a crescent of moon" (The translation I have is more like "it will grow like..."). There is in fact an image of the rajmudra here so we might be able to import it to the commons and put it on the page itself, if it was correctly licensed there. But you are saying that it is a source for something, what do you want to add it as a source for? Him being the son of Shahaji? This was never disputed. --Muhandes (talk) 08:04, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

I quoted this seal for the citation asked in main page for 'Shivaji shahaji'.dbkasar —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.153.44.130 (talk) 07:02, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm afraid all I can see is that is says "Shivaji, son of Shahaji", which was not disputed. The citation was requested since an editor was not sure the custom to call someone by their father's name was practiced at the time. This might be since I don't understand the language, and maybe the language does amount to the same, so I'll leave this to someone who does. --Muhandes (talk) 11:51, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Shivaji's Shudra status

I'm running across quite a few mentions of Shivaji having been of a Shudra family, who was then later recognised as Kshatriya by Brahmins in order to legitimise his coronation. Is there any legitimate reason to leave out this information, other than POV? MatthewVanitas (talk) 18:47, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Pandit Gaga Bhatt presented a genealogy declaring that Shivaji's ancestors were Kshatriyas descended from the solar line of the Rajput Ranas of Mewar.

Ref here- ^[1]. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 10:00, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

^ H. S. Sardesai (2002). Shivaji, the great Maratha, Volume 2. Genesis Publishing Pvt Ltd. p. 428. ISBN 9788177552843.

And what exactly makes Pandit Gaga Bhatt a reliable source for this? Does Sardesai actually critique him? I ask because Sardesai's book gets zero hits for citations on GScholar, despite being around for 10 years. While I recognise that is not the only indicator, it is often persuasive. Similarly, Genesis Publishing Pvt do not appear to be a recognised source for quality books.

NB: I have not looked at any sources other than the one cited above. I therefore have no opinion on the matter at all, other than to query the quality of this particular source. - Sitush (talk) 23:36, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Is the book written by Pandit Ganga Bhatt? No. To say that the Pandit Ganga Bhatt as a source is incorrect.

About the content, lets not judge content. The source is reliable. Please mention how Genesis Publishing didn't turn up as a reliable publisher for you. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 06:05, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

I did not say that the book was written by PGB. I asked did the author (Sardesai) critique him for his reliability. Genesis Publishing Pvt scores beggar all: they are not a well-known publisher internationally, not a university press and not even seemingly much used on Wikipedia as a source. So, we have a pretty much unknown author published by a pretty much unknown press - what's to like? For all we know, they may be a vanity publisher. - Sitush (talk) 06:50, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

More on Cosmo Publications for uninformed. Perhaps this will toss away all loose talk of "a vanity publisher"? ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 07:06, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Nobody is doubting that Brahmin leaders wrote a genealogy for Shivaji, what we are discussing is whether there is academic debate as to the validity of this genealogy. This is not some fringe theory, search gBooks for "shivaji kshatriya" and you'll note that a large number of serious books (including O'Hanlon) bring up the issue of how even at the time his Kshatriya claims were contested, and even today people debate his actual origin. What is the problem with mentioning in the article that these issues are not necessarily clear-cut, and mentioning the main theories? MatthewVanitas (talk) 13:43, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

The point is how are editors judging who should debate the genealogy once it is written. In any case, as already mentioned many times, caste is not ironclad for ironclad anthropological classifications, unlike race that can not be changed by religion. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 14:42, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Well, you kicked off that debate by giving my initial question an answer that implied "no, he's Kshatriya". My question wasn't "did anyone ever say he was Kshatriya", my question was "is there some reason we're not including the scholarly discussion of his possible (likely) Shudra origins?" MatthewVanitas (talk) 15:11, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

As I understand, the varna understanding even at this point of time is not ironclad. I am not sure how clear another discussion on an an event that was about 450 years ago would be, for what is clear is that his Sisodia lineage was accepted, etc. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 15:27, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

It does not have to be ironclad. As said earlier, I have not actually checked up on anything in this area. but if there is a reasonable academic debate then we need to reflect it. Just as at Kurmi we reflect the claims to kshatriya status that have been made. I am sure that you are aware there is no such thing as "absolute truth", so provided that the issue MV refers to is not a fringe theory etc, it should be covered. If there are a lot of source, as MV suggests, then it definitely needs something saying about it. - Sitush (talk) 23:53, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

As on Kurmi page, the page should not look like more on debates & misunderstandings of editors. It would look poor reflection of enforcing Wikipedia standards and an attempt to add smear, at the same time undermining the stated substance of Kashtriya lineage/admission. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 07:12, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Take that to the Kurmi page. You really are not learning a thing about how this project works, are you? How many more times must people ask you not to spread this junk across umpteen different pages. There is a place for it and the procedures for what to do if you cannot resolve at that place have been explained to you on several occasions. So, please stop introducing points that are irrelevant to what ever page it is you happen to be editing at the time. Thank you. - Sitush (talk) 10:15, 28 July 2011 (UTC) Retracted: a gross misunderstanding on my part, sorry. - Sitush (talk) 11:18, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

There are lots of superb modern sources for Shivaji's original Shudra status. In fact, Shivaji is the paradigmatic case of such transformation in Susan Bayly's work. I will post the references here later. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 12:40, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

The article mentions that 'Initially, when Shivaji decided to formally ascend the throne, the local Brahmins refused to crown him because he had no proof of his Kshatriya Rajput ancestry. Subsequently, Pandit Gaga Bhatt presented a genealogy declaring that Shivaji's ancestors were Kshatriyas descended from the solar line of the Rajput Ranas of Mewar.[20]'. I think it should be left at that. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 13:51, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't have any interest in this article, but since I have already posted the references on the India project page, I'm providing the links here, in case someone is interested:

Interesting edit there! ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 15:33, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

There is a world of difference between not being able to prove one's status and changing one's status. Since you now appear to be coming round to MV's point, the article needs to reflect it. To do otherwise is (yet again) censorship. You are not learning, are you? - Sitush (talk) 15:57, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Since we are discussing about censorship, detail on Coronation of Shivaji would also be good I suppose. In any case I am glad that 'changing status' is now finding a regular mention in otherwise unchanging positions on varna status. That varna system is quite fluid is somehow sinking in is a good indicator. You can blame whoever you want to, but I am glad that systemic biases are getting cleared. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 16:17, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Don't "break your arm patting yourself on the back"; nobody has been arguing that varna is a constant, we've been arguing that varna is a complex issue that needs to be qualified and contextualised. Again, if you look at my work (Kayastha for example, which I did an almost total rewrite on) I've done entire paragraphs about varna flexibilities and controversies. I am impressed at the cognitive dissonance involved in trying to block information, and when that becomes unfeasible congratulating others for being open-minded. MatthewVanitas (talk) 16:24, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Please check the book by noted historian Jadunath Sarkar on how the brahmins of the day regarded Shivaji as a Shudra and how he in turn got the learned Gaga bhatt to create a Kshtriya lineage for him in order to get crowned. The book also talks about the greediness of the brahmins of the day.[4],page 242Jonathansammy (talk) 17:10, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

How did sarkar knew that brahmins of his day considered shivaji a shudra what are his sources further the poetry Jayaram by Maharastrian Brahmin Champu on Shahji states he and maloji(grandfather) are sisodia rana. Sarkar is speculating and his views dont forms source how did he knew how much money was paid infact many of sarkar writings are invented he has described wars as if he witnessed the wars these are creative writings and not authenitc.115.241.246.57 (talk) 07:33, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Where does it say all this? Please quote passages. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011 17:14, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

TT2011 , The gbook is searchable. Please check page 240-242. When the local brahmins denied his Kshatriya claim, Shivaji in turn asked all his brahmin administrators to resign and get back to their traditional pursuit of puja and surviving on "bhikshuki". The book or certainly this section is very entertaining.Jonathansammy (talk) 21:10, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

how jadunath sarkar knew this, what are his sources jaduath sarkar cannot be a source.115.242.19.234 (talk) 08:10, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

The pages of Jadunath Sarkar can be referred on Archive.org here. Please stop using Googlebooks for references where they don't even bother to put up a free copy of a book in the public domain. AshLin (talk) 10:29, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

MV said that his kshatriya origin was contested even at that time sorry MV but thats a lie and if not plz furnish the sources of that era and not of modern historians . I dont believe in speculating anything i need evidence thats all, further the thing that Kshatriya origin was created just for his coronation is false the book written on Shahji by Champu was 20 years before shivaji coronation similarly shahji letter to adil shah was of very earlier date than shivaji coronation, hence shivaji created fake demand of kshatriya is false and is propogated by few historians with vested interest . MV can you give the source which proves that his origin was contested in that era i guess thats written by modern historians till 20th century nobody contested this only after 20th century many origins of shivaji pop-up to take the claim of freeing india from muslims.115.242.19.234 (talk) 08:03, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Shivaji's Rajput ancestry

From James Mill , ( 1817 ), THE HISTORY OF BRITISH INDIA. BY JAMES MILL, ESQ. , London , Baldwin, Cradock and Joy, Paternoster Row , p. 606

"Malojee was the son of Bauga Bonsla, a son of the Rana of Odipoor, by a woman of an inferior caste. The degradation of Bauga Bonsla, from the impurity and baseness of his birth, drove him to seek, among strangers, that respect which he was denied at home. He served during a part of his life a Rajah, possessing a Zemindaree in the province of Candesh; and afterwards purchased for himself a Zemindaree in the neighbourhood of Poonah, where he resided till his death. His son Malojee entered the service of a Mah- ratta chief, in which he acquired so much distinction as to obtain the daughter of his master in marriage for his son. This son was Shajee, and Sevagee was the fruit of the marriage. But Shajee, having quarrelled with his father-in-law, re- paired to the King of Beejapore, and received an establishment in Carnatic. He here joined the Polygar of Mudkul in a war upon the Rajah of Tanjore; and having defeated the Rajah, the victors quarrelled about the division of the territory. Shajee defeated the Polygar, took possession of both Mudkul and Tanjore; and, having married another wife, by whom he had a son named Ekojee, he left him and his posterity Rajahs of Tanjore, till they sunk into dependants of the East India Company.*"Jonathansammy (talk) 22:47, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Khafi khan has reportedly wriiten that bhonsle are illegitimate heirs of rana of udeipur with inferior women , further i would like to attract everyone attention towards this, according to hindu rituals caste of mother is caste of child in ancient times best example the only shudra empire of india Nand empire was founded by Mahapadma Nand who was son of Mahanandi(kshatriya) with shudra wife shunanda. Objecting to rise of Mahapadma his step brothers objected on which he killed all the kshatriya so that no one can claim the throne. Now in modern world all rituals changed now caste comes from father as well as religion so even if Shivaji grandfather or ancestors were son of rajput father and shudra mother will we consider them as rajput or shudra , one thing which is undisputable is that by some way or other shivaji family is connected with rajputs reason have a look at the grammer.

Shiva ji bhonsle or shiva sinh bhonsle, shah ji bhonsle or shah sinh bhonsle , similarly "JI" is not attached for respect but is common and it is probable it came from SINH(pronounced sih) which may have corrupted into "JI" .Apart from this the mudhol state persian sanads prove the rajput lineage of shivaji and his ancestors further to say only shivaji is rajput is wrong many maratha generals traced their lineage to rajputs. The mohammedan conquest may have forced migration from north to central india. GH Ojha is another great historian of repute who have agreed on rajput origin but assigned his illegitimate tag. The most common outcome is that it is possible shivaji ancestors are of mixed birth father from rajput side and a shudra mother because higher caste men were allowed to marry lower caste women and their are many examples of this.115.241.246.57 (talk) 07:41, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

yes many ancient scholars have commented on Shivaji origin and they all refer to them as Rajputs, the letter of Shahji to Sultan Adil Shah states he is sisodia rajput. This is disgusting to doubt people like Shivaji and Shahji but these modern claims by historians in 20th century are disgusting and sadening , can a man of Shivaji repute lie about his origin i dont think so, maybe he was of mixed birth but still he was rajput . Further the alternate origins are not shudra but "YADAVA", "hoysala" and "lingayat" shudra origin is promoted only by dalit right activists and supporter and till any evidence is furnished i am against mentioning this because this will make propaganda and is not right we need atleast some evidence Jadunath sarkar too didnt call shivaji a shudra he contested his pure rajput claim but never said him a shudra and further shudra which "CASTE"!!!! this is important question to which caste in shudra community he belongs to so i think it will be just propaganda and not fact. Atleast one primary source should point towards that but without a single piece of primary source it will act as propaganda and not a fact backed by evidence. Will this not be injustice towards the rajput origin because It has been supported by both primary sources and renowned historians(i will not nit pick like qwyrian).115.240.64.250 (talk) 07:53, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Why would the Dalit promote the Shudra claim ? According to the Varna theory they are not even part of the four varnas. At best they can be regarded as "Ati-shudra". Shivaji and Shahaji were great men. To me, whether they were half Rajput or quarter Rajput does not reduce my respect for them. By the way, the reference I gave earlier was from 1817. What I would be interested in is whether the Sisodia ever acknowledged the Bhosale family as one of their own. Also some brahmins may even challenge the claims of Rajputs to be Kshatriya. To them , after Parshuram's genocide of Kshatriyas, only two varnas were left, brahmin and Shudra !Jonathansammy (talk) 15:11, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Oh yeah and who defeated Mr Parshuram the great warrior and Hindu most beloved God Lord Sree Ram Chandra he is ancestors of all the "SURYAVANSHI KSHATRIYA" their are overall 24 kshatriya groups who are considered Suryavanshi Kshatriya. The fact that parshuram wanted to establish brahmins on the top of varna system which was objected by kshatriya on which he killed all kshatriya but Lord vishnu then took the avatar of LORD RAM and handed mr parshuram(a brahmin) a shameful defeat infact even Lakshman(another kshatriya) would have rocked mr parshuram.

I have to say that even though i am an upper caste(not brahmin but kshatriya) but i hate brahmins the most because they have always tried to pull kshatriya down infact they have tried to dominate Hinduism and wanted to replace hinduism with brahminism and that angers me. They have done the same with Chandragupta morya all the hindu texts(purana and ved) descirbe chandragupta as kshatriya of solar dynasty but the brahmin accounts such as mudrarakshahsa a text which is written 800 years after chandragupta call him a nanda son from a sudra women. Further just think this is Jadunath sarkar have more values and integrity than Shivaji i dont think so even if jadunath sarkar die and born 1000 times he will not have same integrity and values therefore i have never doubted shivahji he was a rajput and will always remain one , the claims which started around 20th century cannot be given importance if shivahji has said he is rajput then that is final.

Yes Sisodia did not accept shivahji as rajput because shivaji is not a pure rajput infact his mother is yadava chieftain daughter , another reason that jai singh was afraid that if he accepts him as sisodia rajput then other rajputs will support shivahji over him. But jai singh has infact written a letter in which he has accepted that shivaji is rajput and he has mentioned that both of them are brothers because they are from same dynasty you can search the jai singh letter to shivaji on gbooks or on various sites.115.242.65.202 (talk) 07:14, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

(folks, please remember to indent your replies using a colon so they don't all run together)

115.242.65.202, you need to take a step back and look at this objectively. Phrases like "shivahji has said he is rajput then that is final" are not conducive to academic discussion. Clearly, the fact that we're even having this heated argument shows that there are several interpretations of the history, and if there are multiple (mainstream, non-fringe) views, they should be portrayed in the article. Nobody should be trying to add "Shivaji was XYZ and this is final", but rather "there is debate as to Shivaji's affiliations, with arguments such as X, Y, and Z" with proper footnotes." If you want to edit on a topic, you must be able to set aside your strong emotional ties to it, or else direct your editing attentions to other topics on which you can be more neutral and objective. MatthewVanitas (talk) 14:56, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

115.242.65.202 (talk),

There is a famous saying by Dr. Martin Luther King and I quote, "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." Similarly we should judge Shivaji Maharaj by his deeds and character rather than whether he was Rajput or not. You, Sir, seem to be too fixated on the Rajput origins and hate for brahmins as well as the Dalits. Yes, we have thousands of castes and tribes in India. We should all be proud of our own individual heritage, however, that should not be at the expense of hate for other groups. Shivaji Maharaj really was a good example of someone who could count amongst his supporters people from all backgrounds including brahmin and even muslims. Jonathansammy (talk) 20:25, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

i will accept not only X,Y AND Z theories about Shivaji but A-Z theories till they are supported by evidence and evidence means -

1-Primary source or text

2-Noted historians agreement.

Rajput origin had both and on the other hand the any other origin of Shivaji is not backed by any primary source of evidence even Jadunath sarkar in his book was interested in rejecting Shivaji origin rather than proving his alternate origin therefore those propaganda dont stand and their is big big loopholes in sarkar many theories he was an expert on Mughal infact from his first to last subject he only wrote about mughals for instant fame and recognition but his knowledge of other subjects are under heavy cloud. 122.161.15.28 (talk) 05:09, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Folks, please indent your responses by putting one more ":" next to your paragraphs than the previous person used, so your reply will be one step further right. If you're getting too far right, type {{deindend}} and start over again at the left. Otherwise this is all too hard to read. MatthewVanitas (talk) 20:10, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

I think i found some material in which Rana of Udeipur has accepted that bhonsle are descendants of sisodiya apart from that chavan and more are also called rajputs one of them is chauhan and other is mori rajput. http://www.archive.org/stream/shivajithegreatv030775mbp/shivajithegreatv030775mbp_djvu.txt

The letter in the possession of satara royal house from udepur shows that the maharan of mewar(udeipur) has written that- This result of the enquiry is to be had in the two letters published in the Sidhanta Vijaya by Mr. Dongre. There is a letter from the Maharana of Udepur and another from the Royal Priest Amreshwar of Udepur to Maharaj Shri Pratapsinha of Satara. Therein it is said that " you are our near kindred. No difference regarding matters of that and this place is to be kept in mind. Originally we are one." And this is not new even Jai singh has referred to shivaji as his brother because both belong to same dynasty and the pattern which i have founded is that Non-rajput origin books start coming only in 20th century and that raises question mark , are those people of lower caste because at that time in india their was lower caste movement for right and respect and they started claiming shivaji for self respect.

And i guess the then head of satara royal house has himself showed the letter it proves to many extent that they are rajputs otherwise no one will write that letter. Further the great Historian Gaurishankar Ojha too has confirmed from the sources that the last member who leave mewar Dilip singh was the one who was the founder of this bhonsle branch.122.161.105.221 (talk) 03:58, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Here people dont understand the meaning of historians and their field of research for example Jadunath sarkar is never known for any of his other subjects apart from Mughals means he has very less knowledge about both rajputs and marathas further he has not written any detailed report as to why shivahji is not rajput, similarly Their is no historian who is as eminent as Gaurishankar ojha in rajasthan history(along with hc raychoudhuri) , people need to understand this i have seen many commnets( from non-history students) like jadunath sarkar greatest indian historian i can only laugh greatest indian historian title can be inferred to three historians who cover many periods and not only mughal and they are RG Bhandarkar, RC Majumdar and Damodar Koshambi apart from these 3 legends in Indian History no other historian can be termed as greatest indian historian or doyen of indian historian. Only those who dont know much about history as subject can say it that" Jadunath Sarkar is greatest indian historian " So come out of that mentality and refer to works by historian for which they are known , tomorrow someone will call a economics field historian such as rc dutt as the doyen of indian historian , many historians have specialized field and we should refer to them by that.122.161.105.221 (talk) 04:18, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

vandal acts by new user

The vandalism seems to have crossed all boundaries the new user deleted all the relevant material with all the sources i copied 2 of the sources but if other know about the sources plz restore it , as many points sources are not known thnx to the blanket editing by the new user, and where are mods .Shail kalp (talk) 09:28, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

the evidence cited by jadunath sarkar in shivaji and his times was flawed, the book was released in 1917(not sure though) in 1939AD jadunath sarkar took a U-TURN and concluded that Shivaji was a rajput , he called the genealogy of bhonsle by dr balkrishna(shivaji the great, volume -1, 1936) as a fairly correct one go and read the later books of sir jadunath sarkar. In 1924 persian sanads were released by mudhol state which tore apart sarkar claim then the first historian to confirm shivaji rajput lineage was great marathi historian gs sardesai and then dr balkrishna give the whole family tree which was termed fairly correct by sarkar in 1939 work. http://www.google.co.in/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=dr+balkrishna+bhonsle+geneology+correct&btnG=#sclient=psy&hl=en&tbo=1&tbm=bks&source=hp&q=Mudhol+firmans+%26+constructed+what+appears+to+be+a+correct+genealogy+of+the+Bhosles+from+the&pbx=1&oq=Mudhol+firmans+%26+constructed+what+appears+to+be+a+correct+genealogy+of+the+Bhosles+from+the&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=8357l8357l5l8623l1l1l0l0l0l0l0l0ll0l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=b362390a3dbaaa3b&biw=1366&bih=677. This work of jadunath sarkar was in 1939 and dr balkrishna has proven with much extent that bhonsle and ghorpade are both rajputs. Stop refering to the old 1917 work of jadunath sarkar the later work in which he retracted his sentence and agreed with shivaji rajput lineage.115.242.127.25 (talk) 08:07, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

At no point did Sir jadunath sarkar recognise the rajput origin of the Bhosales. Please stop spreading false and malicious articles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bhushanbush82 (talk • contribs) 23:01, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

we have seen your credentials bhushan , second thing he has already accepted shivaji rajput origin, infact the work you are citing is 1919 work-shivaji and his times and the work on jadunath sarkar and the letters and works not published were released in 56 by another historian go and read the above mentioned work , the persian sanads released in 1924 tore apart jadunath sarkar claimed though it was his greatness that he after that accepted the shivaji rajput claim, plz refer to the links provided by me, the 1936 work by dr balkrishan is a classic he has done giant research with all the possible sources and gave a genealogy which is widely accepted now and the bhonsle and ghorpade both are descendant of same sisodia so your ranting will not change the fact.115.242.13.119 (talk) 14:39, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Contesting the half Rajput descent of Shahji

I see a lot of unverified theories being portrayed here as facts, infact many links or references provided by the claimants themselves are not true. When there are contesting claims and unreliable sources , you cannot portray one point of view.

As per " Raja Shivchatrapati" - Balasaheb Purandare , Shreeman Yogi - Ranjeet Desai ( Shivaji The great - Mr.V.D.Katamble ) , .Shahaji decends from the Marathas of Ellora/ Satara.

Lets challenge the Rajput theory line by line

1] Claim - Shivaji's grandfather Maloji Bhonsle claimed descent from the Sisodia clan of Rajputs ......Challenge - When and where did Maloji Claim this? Where is that letter and who has verified the authenticity of this claim ? You can't just attribute some authors or your wown fancy.

2] Claim - Bhushan the Hindi poet speaks of the Bhosales being Rajput - Challenge - There is no place where Mahakavi Bhushan Tripathi claims Rajput Origin, this is unverified .

3]Claim - Shivabharata of Paramananda mentions that Shivaji and Shahji are of the Ikshvaku lineage like the Sisodiyas ; Parnalaparvata Grahanakhyana states that Shivaji is a Sisodia;.. Challenge - These are unverified and infact mailicious theories. Lets just use our commonsense , if a poet / philosopher calls someone a Rajput / Tamil , does he became one , does his lineage change ????

4] Regarding Kaifi Khan , his visceral hatred for Raje Shivaji and the Marathas is well known ; his history is not neutral at all ; its infact very biased.

5]James Mill and James todds theory is contested and controvertial even then and even today. They are not part of standard accepted history . None of their History is taught in any school or university in India.

6] Sir Jadunath Sarkar is considered the most imminent historian on the subject of the Moghals and Marathas ; and he has always contested the half Rajput Claim . The fact is that during those Medieval times of 16/17 century and even later , when caste segregation was an integral part of India ; the Brahmins of Maharashtra refused to coronate Raje Shivaji ; Hence the Marathas got Pandit Gaga Bhatt of Varanasi and he presented a genealogy declaring that Shivaji's ancestors were Kshatriyas. The fact is the Bhosales come from the Maratha family of Satara and Ellora. and Jijabai comes from the Yadavas of Deogiri.

There is no other Historical record from any court documents of the Marathas or any claim made of any Maratha Sardar ( including the Bhosales)about being Rajput ; — Preceding unsigned comment added by Subhashbhosle55 (talk • contribs) 20:23, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

you are wrong, poet jayaram of shahji bhonsle court and bhaskar of shivaji court both mentions bhonsle as sisodia rajputs. Yes khafi khan was critical thats why he attached the illegal rajput tag with shivahji to show him below others but he did not call him a shudra or something like that and if he was faking then why will he call him a sisodia they are among the 4 rajput house who opposed mughal till the very end have no relations with mughals no matrimonial relations always damaged mughals and why not kachwaha this rajput branch used to sell their daughters in the harem of mughals so why he did not call shivahji a kachwaha and why sisodia. Oh have you read mahakavi poetry on shivaji do you even understand it dr balkrishna has verified all these sources what are you thinking about dr balkrishna go and search dr balkrishna(shivaji the great) then you will know how his work is considered a classic on maratha history no historian has collected and studied that much sources to know the origin of maratha warriors. Second thing it is pretty certain that you have no evidence and is guranteed that you are working for your own caste glory have you ever read kavi bhushan work then plz remind me which style was used by kavi bhushan , dont try to fool others the dr balkrishna work is a greatly cited book without major fault. Jadunth sarkar also changed his version post dr balkrishna work115.242.13.119 (talk) 14:58, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

I agree, There is no historical evidence of any kind if Shivaji ever claimed to be of Rajput descent ; infact according to Dr Ranjeet Desai or Babasaheb Purandare Shivaji Claimed Hindvi Swarajya or Maratha Shahi ; I read in some earlier discussions about some claiming that Shaha-ji , where Ji can be linked to Singh ; If I may say , this is such stupid logic ; some one is talking about a letter from Shahaji ,who has seen that letter and what is the authenticity of this letter ? Does that ONE letter define the lineage of a clan ? . Many of these historians like Kaifi Khan , and many British historians called Shivaji a robber ; what is the veracity of claims by these baised historians? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bhushanbush82 (talk • contribs) 22:18, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

neither is jadunath sarkar most eminent maratha historian, the title remains with james grant duff and gs sardesai and second thing the source of jadunath sarkar you are quoting is of earlier date, shivaji and his times was a 1919 work , persian sanads were released in 1924, gs sardesai agrees with sisodia lineage of both shivaji,ghorpade -http://www.google.co.in/#sclient=psy&hl=en&tbm=bks&source=hp&q=+Bhim+Sinh's+descendants+thus+came+to+be+known+as+Ghorpades&pbx=1&oq=+Bhim+Sinh's+descendants+thus+came+to+be+known+as+Ghorpades&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=80395l80395l3l80682l1l2l0l0l0l0l0l0ll1l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=42ee3e466722faa5&biw=1366&bih=677

and third thing after the 1936 work of dr balkrishna(shivaji the great volume 1-3) the genealogy he has given in his work was accepted by the so called great historian sir jadunath sarkar in his 1939 work---http://www.google.co.in/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=g#sclient=psy&hl=en&tbm=bks&source=hp&q=Dr.+Balkrishna+of+Kolhapur+has+issued+his+first+vol.+of+%22Shivaji+the+Great%22+%E2%80%94+dealing+with+the+career+of+Shahji.+He+has+made+free+use+of+the+Mudhol+firmans+%26+constructed+what+appears+to+be+a+correct+genealogy+of+the+Bhosles+from+the&pbx=1&oq=Dr.+Balkrishna+of+Kolhapur+has+issued+his+first+vol.+of+%22Shivaji+the+Great%22+%E2%80%94+dealing+with+the+career+of+Shahji.+He+has+made+free+use+of+the+Mudhol+firmans+%26+constructed+what+appears+to+be+a+correct+genealogy+of+the+Bhosles+from+the&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=8207l8207l0l8481l1l0l0l0l0l0l0l0ll0l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=42ee3e466722faa5&biw=1366&bih=677 further the so called jadunath sarkar contesting the rajput origin of shivaji falls flat because he has already retracted from his earlier stand. The book by dr balkrishna has been cited as reference on this site and the full book can be read on the archive.com(also included in this section plz search the reference section).thnx.115.242.13.119 (talk) 14:34, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

dont be ignorant of all historians, gh ojha a great historian, gs sardesai another great historian, later on sarkar also retracted from his earlier stand, this means not a single noted historian doubts the rajput claim of shivaji. second thing neither of you respect shivaji or his family you both are same persons with different user name as can be seen , how many historians and sources will you term incorrect the fact is that bhonsle,ghorpade, chavan, salunke, more and many more maratha family are rajputs as can be seen from their names as well. And the jadunath sarkar opposition can be deleted because that was ealier work 1919(shivaji and his times) in which he claim shivaji is not rajput but later on retracted and agree with dr balkrishna genealogy of bhonsles and ghorpade.115.242.13.119 (talk) 14:47, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Let me rebuff you point by point but FIRST Lets get certain things straight here :

THIS IS CONSENSUS FORUM . NOT YOUR HOME BLOG PAGE , WHERE YOU CAN PUT CONTROVERTIAL QUOTES , OR SOMETHING THAT IS NOT ACCEPTED AS STANDARD HISTORY AS FACTS .

As I said before read works by Balasaheb Purandare or Ranjeet Desai. The Bhosales come form the Maratha house of Satara/ Ellora.

Point one : Dont give me some unverfied quotes by some poets . In Dr. Shirish Despandes work on Shahaji Raje, there is no mention of any Rajput house nor did Shahji ever claim it.You can also use your commonsense that when a poet calls someone a Rajput his lineage does not change.This is no scientific evidence. In "Shivraj Bhushan" Mahakavi Bhushan compares Shivaji to Indra and Ram , does not mean he has become one .

Point two: Ragarding Kaifi Khan , the whole world knows his visceral Hatred and Biased History against the Marathas. How on earth can you quote his work on a public forum of consensus. We do not need Kaifi Khans certification on the Non- Shudra status on Shivaji . He was a Maratha , thats a proven fact. You seem motivated on proving the Rajput link , Lets get this Straight, Except Rana Sanga and the GREAT Maharana Pratap , none of the Medieval Rajputs(12th-17th) resisted the Moghals;Since you are so fond of Balakrishnan , let me quote from his book ( Shivaji The great , vol1)" The Hindus of the Deccan made no efforts for three centuries to throw off the Muslim yoke. In Northern India several Hindu kingdoms survived in Rajputana but all of them had become vassals of the Delhi Empire. Even,the Solar Dynasty of Udaipur bowed to the inevitable and accepted the suzerainty of the Great Mogul. The large ^resources of Jodhpur, Jaipur and many other Rajput states were utilized in subjugating the Deccan, in destroying Shivaji, and in swallowing the Muslim states"

Point 3: You seem to be quoting , some thing that is convenient to you and leaving out that is inconvenient . Govind Sakharam Sardesais orignal history work in Marathi " Riayasats" ; at no place does he mention the Bhosales are half descents of the Rajputs; infact even in the link you provided there is a very general statement by Sardesai on the Maratha lineage; But in the same link it says ..." the name Bhosales has not been satisfactorily accounted for ...."

Point 4:At no point did Sir Jadunath Sarkar study or quote the half Rajput Genealogy of the Bhosales.

So the bottom line is , none of the historians (including) Balkrishnan or Ojha did an exclusive study of the genealogy of the Marathas. THE LINEAGE OF ANY CLAN OR RACE CAN NOT BE ATTRIBUTED TO SOME PERSIAN SANADS (that also without verification); All their history has been contested and none is accepted as standard history taught in schools and colleges in India. And the most Important : None of the Maratha Chronicles ever claim anything of the Rajputs; There is no evidence if Shivaji or Shahaji or any Maratha sardar to have ever claimed that.

I REMIND YOU AGAIN; THIS IS A CONSENSUS FORUM AND NOT YOUR HOME BLOG PAGE , YOU CAN NOT QUOTE ANYTHING, EXCEPT STANDARD ACCEPTED HISTORY. I REQUEST YOU NOT TO USE THIS FORUM TO FURTHER YOUR ULTERIOR MOTIVES.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Bhushanbush82 (talk • contribs) 16:22, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Hii Mr 115.242.13.... I JUST READ your last statement and you quoted " ..... the fact is that bhonsle,ghorpade, chavan, salunke, more and many more maratha family are rajputs as can be seen from their names as well. ...." to start with I do not think this is an attitude to develop consensus; you are so hell bent on proving something about the Rajputs , that your only motive seems to be to bring credibility to the Medievel Rajputs. This is not a forum for that , but to put forward standard accepted history. By the last logic about names you put forward; Inder kumar Gujral should be a gujarathi ( but thats not a fact , he comes from Jhelum, Punjab ) ; I have a friend in Pune whose first name is Shahu whose a Maratha and a friend in UP whose last name is Shahu whose a bhumihar ; By your logic every Patel should come from Patils ; but this is no evidence ; The fact is , In a common cultural spectrum and in a blanket of common indo-aryan language family ; names can be similiar or tweaked versions of each other ; but this serves no evidence of common lineage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Subhashbhosle55 (talk • contribs) 18:20, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

you belong to the lower caste marathi family and we belong to upper caste marathi family and that is the difference we will not allow marathi lower caste to even enter our house maybe you need the official book by some maratha chief then read this ---https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:jRh45e3f1ZwJ:www.resourcedesign.co.in/imgs/samplings/books/A_profile_in_courage.pdf+Shubha+Krishna's+descendants+bhonsle&hl=en&gl=in&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESionoY5VtoJY5xodWNZOvpyq9Xe0CTnECqvzM3SJw2tGqhX6lu9_UgtBebMr3D6G2Xkkq37bdG59JNpwOs2u0vF7GR6vybjyxmHjvKVjrc2S8VqGk8iymND0kiHgN0WEk1XGH0L&sig=AHIEtbSM1tAldjiAvurGKZy7QNvV_eUP1g

the book written by the his highness former chief of ghorpade branch and further plz read the dr balkrishna(shivahji the great) which is written under the kind patronage of the chief of satara bhonsle house go and read the whole interface. Shahji letter is already preserved and it punctured a hole in the theory of their low caste, the jadunath sarkar material is also outdated reason the citation is from 1919 work(Shivaji and his times) whereas in 56 --"Sir Jadunath Sarkar commemoration volumes: Volume 1" go and read this the work was published in 1956 and what jadunath sarkar has to say about the genealogy made by dr balkrishna of kolhapur (shivaji the great), he has termed the genealogy fairly correct, the outdated version of sarkar has been used to propagate the propaganda of shivaji low origin which sarkar has already denied himself in his 56 work.115.241.190.53 (talk) 07:38, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

THIS IS FOR EVERYBODY TO SEE; MR 115.241.190.53 's very view of history , is through the PRISM OF CASTE, and that is why he is trying to hard to concoct unverified claims , which is not accepted as standard history as proof. Infact Balkrishnans study is based on the same grounds as done by satara bhosale house because of caste preassure at that time; so what you are doing is presenting the same evidence multiple times in different ways . Jadunath Sarkar and even the state GOVT of MAHARASHTRA have never accepted this evidence. Now , My friend , you dont have to try so hard to prove a Rajput link to prove a clans Non-Shudra status. Who has said that only the Rajput are Kshatriyas, there are Ahirs , Jats , Kayastas, Marathas, Khatris , Nairs etc etc etc. A person becomes a Kshatriya by his valour and deeds , and not by the caste he is born in. Chattrapatis Shivajis Mavale were ordinary peasants and soldiers, but they wrecked the largest standing army of tartars at that time. And Btw I also come from the Satara Bhosales ; we moved to pune and mumbai generations ago. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Subhashbhosle55 (talk • contribs) 15:25, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

[1] H. S. Sardesai (2002). Shivaji, the great Maratha, Volume 2. Genesis Publishing Pvt Ltd. p. 428. ISBN 9788177552843.

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