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Article merged: See old talk-page here

I’m confused why the term “depopulated” is used to describe forced expulsion—-which clearly amounts to ethnic cleansing. This article has a clear Zionist bis and attempts to white wash crimes against humanity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.96.63.3 (talk) 01:08, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Untitled

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I removed this text - which appeared under the heading "ETHNIC CLEANSING" - as it is POV:

Originally an Arab Palestinian town (NAJD), it was ethnically cleansed and destroyed by the Israeli forces and by zionist settlers from 1948 on. You can check more information about this at PALESTINE REMEMBERED project ( www.palestineremembered.com ) : http://netfinity2.PalestineRemembered.com/Gaza/Najd/

There is no reason that this page should not contain a disucussion of how and to what extent the demographics of the town have changed since 1948, but this should consist of more than a raw POV statement and a link to an external site. Molinari 20:38, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

"City under siege" vs "City in siege"

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Hi. At one point I altered the heading "City in siege" to "City under siege", which is the normal expression in English. (More accurately, I should say that it is the normal expression in my version of English; I grew up in Australia.) This change was later reverted. Is there some specific reason why "in siege" is preferred to "under siege" in this context? Molinari 20:33, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It seems to me, from video footage that I've seen on the Web, that Qassams are really rockets and not mortar bombs - that is, they are powered by an ignited propellant out in the open as opposed to being propelled out of the barrel of a mortar by a gunpowder explosion that tries to go in every direction, but is confined by the mortar's barrel to only moving significantly in one direction - toward the open end of the barrel - thus, shooting out the mortar bomb.


In the section Sderot Cinema, in the following sentence there is a word missing: "As Marc Goldberg claims there is nothing new and nothing wrong it." Andygx (talk) 13:55, 13 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Relationship between Mayor Moyal and Mayor of Los Angeles

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Any details on the flowering relationship between the Eli Moyal, the Mayor of Sderot and the Mayor of Los Angeles. They declared each other unofficial (it might even be official, in addition to or in place of Eilat) sister-cities during the bombing particularly in July 2006 and Mayor Villaraigosa declared it in a speech to some 10,000 people in Los Angeles in late July about his phone call being cut off by a Qassam. Valley2city 06:29, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Proper references?

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The article continually repeats the line "According to CBS", but there are no links or reference listings to support this. It would be helpful if someone could track down the link, or otherwise properly attribute the date in the article.Aervanath 15:25, 21 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Najd, etc.

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Just to be clear: Sderot was not built on farming lands, this area is mountainous and most of it is sand dunes which are present to this day. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.57.176.28 (talk) 10:48, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't want to get into a dispute about the former existence of a village called Najd, but want to make a couple fo points:

  • Palestineremembered is hardly an unbiased source, and having reviewed the site, I'm hard to think of it as particularly reliable
  • I think it would be misleading to characterize cities, towns, villages, etc., that existed before 1948 as "Palestinian," as everything in the area - whether predominantly Jewish, Arab, or other, was Palestinian. If the point is that a place used to be predominantly Arab, we should write "Arab" to avoid any confusion. --Leifern 16:28, 24 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • This village was a Palestinian village prior to 1958, which the Zionist regime stole from them.

There is some kind of documentary evidence[1], however it is difficult to say how relevant it is. It does seem that it's a book that references other data - difficult to find any estalished evidence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.152.51.163 (talk) 20:37, 8 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The palestineremembered site now contains the video of the oral history given by Mansour al-Kurdi to Rakan Mahmond. The website statistics give an English version of events documented by the oral history of a person who can give a first-hand account of events of May 13, 1948.

The fact that the Jewish city of Sderot is build over the ruins of the Arab city of Najd is independently documented by historians Walid Khalidi (already referenced in the Wiki article), Ilan Pappe, and Benny Morris. The existence of the Arab city of Najd is also mentioned by the Christian historian Edward Robinson (1841). [See following blog entry for discussion and selected quotes

http://nonarab-arab.blogspot.com/2009/01/lets-talk-about-sderotor-is-it-najd.html

Any article about Sderot needs to recognize that the version of history offered by the current residents is not the only version of history that exists. The fact that there are individuals with a claim of previous ownership is important. The fact that those previous owners have been pressing their ownership claims through the entire period of occupation is also important. Occupation does not remove the claims of those who were landowners before the occupation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.184.15.190 (talk) 04:39, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's amazing really that Najd is not mentioned. Orwellian. Human beings were ethnically cleansed here, their land stolen they were forced to Gaza. Does the chapter on Gaza mention this or similar in Ashkelon etc? I doubt it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tcherkessi (talk • contribs) 16:59, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Najd needs certainly to mentioned since it's the core of the founding history of Sderot. The website "Palestineremebered" is not an "advocacy site" but a history facts site. The site did lots of research on the Najd village, it gives numbers and in-depth information. If anyone doubts these numbers are incorrent please give the source of your information on Najd. Tijs schelstraete (talk) 23:43, 2 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Page from a book: http://www.palestineremembered.com/download/VillageStatistics/Table%20III/Gaza/Page-138.jpg

IDF operation in 2006

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The page says: "In June 2006 the IDF occupied the Gaza Strip's border area and began a shelling campaign, which claimed the lives of not only the intended targets: two senior members of the Palestinian militia, the Popular Resistance Committees but also the lives of 177 Palestinian civilians" Can anyone confirm this information? The other wiki article about the 2006 conflict says that there were 402 casualties, 280 of them militants.

city under attack

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Informally, I suggest removing the part of this section recording certain events or splitting into another article. Most of these dates are insignificant and detract from the article. --Shuki 19:01, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reliable sources

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palestineremembered.com is a personal website, and a partisan, unreliable source. Please do not use it on Wikipedia. Jayjg (talk) 14:41, 2 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

see [1]. I'll try to acquire some of the literature mentioned there, to improve the sourcing. As per who's partisan and who isn't, I notice that you don't seem to have objected to edits like this one: [2]. --Soman 14:49, 2 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I only noticed the article moments ago, haven't edited it before. I'm not sure why you're bringing up stuff from before I'd ever seen it. Regarding palestinerembered.com, despite the use of the royal "we" on that page, it's an anonymous personal website, no different than a million others from what I can see, and far more partisan than many. Please try to use reliable, scholarly sources. Jayjg (talk) 14:51, 2 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

@Soman, as you labeled an edit by me (the one with the external link #2) derogatorily as "edits like this one", my I ask what's your objection? -- Túrelio 14:20, 3 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Moyal's resignation

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While I wouldn't normally find the resignation (sudden or not) of a mayor to be worth including in an encyclopedia, I think the fact that Eli specifically referenced the rocket attacks as his reason for quitting makes the event significant, so I've added it to the "city under attack" section (which, btw, I have also retitled "City under seige", simply because I adore alliteration. :D Eaglizard (talk) 19:47, 12 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A Child's drawing used in the article

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Under whas Wiki rules is a child's drawing used to justify this article as enclopedic? I strongly suggest the drawing be removed. Chaldean (talk) 05:55, 7 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What is your problem with that image? I suggest to read the description in Image:Sderotchilddrawing.jpg. -- Túrelio (talk) 19:27, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
How is it encyclopedic? Chaldean (talk) 06:02, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think that the drawing itself illustrates the trauma that the people of Sderot are going through. While the main ilages should be the standard scenery of the city, for now there is a lack of those pictures. --Shuki (talk) 18:06, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Call me crazy, but I'd prefer an actual picture of say a bombed house. Not a child's drawing. I have not seen this in any other Wiki page. Chaldean (talk) 07:27, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Shlama, is it really so hard to understand that this image expresses something different ("has another message") and far deeper than an image of a bombed house?
I have not seen this in any other Wiki page. If that had been taken as an argument by Jimbo, there would be no Wikipedia. Sorry, couldn't resist. As to my knowledge, fair use is legally valid only here on :en. Also, you are free to take the effort to obtain a comparable picture of a palestinian, assyrian, or african child for example about the life as a refugee and procure a fitting license/FU rationale. -- Túrelio (talk) 10:04, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, children's drawings aren't encyclopedic, this is an encyclopedia, not an art forum - look at the following links : [3] [4] . Photographs are much more important. thestick (talk) 19:19, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think the use of a child's drawing is perfectly encyclopedic. It shows some of the psychological impact of the rocket attacks. However, it should not be the only image in the article - there should be a photo of the city, and perhaps one of damage done by the rocket fire too. Also, it should if possible accompany text discussing the impact of rocket attacks. Saluton (talk) 16:54, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sderot in film

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I think anyone following the situation in Sderot will be interested that a documentary filmaker with a proven track record and funding has a crew there making a movie. More than one publication found this interesting enough to run an article. I think the banner is unwarrented.Elan26 (talk) 18:34, 2 June 2008 (UTC)Elan26[reply]

Also, scenes from Unsettled were filmed there.Wikidemon (talk) 10:20, 3 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Evidence lacking

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Where is the evidence that Hamas is organising and actually firing rockets into Israel? As far as I remember, it was not Hamas but Islamic Jihad. You confuse the issues if you lump all these groups together. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.194.91.5 (talk) 22:43, 1 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The statement is sourced. Where is the evidence that Hamas was not involved? Remember, we're talking about the entire 2000–2008 period here, not just the 'truce' of 2008. On a side note, please register an account. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 20:40, 8 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

'Millions of dollars in damage"??

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"These have killed 8 residents, wounded hundreds, caused millions of dollars in damage..."

Where is the evidence of "millions of dollars in damage"? Most Qassams don't damage anything. While all humans should be free of fear from rocket attack, the claims of "millions of dollars in damage" are nothing more than propaganda.

Put up the proof or remove the fallacious references. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Richardkeefe57 (talk • contribs) 21:44, 15 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have added a source per your request. In the future, please refrain from making baseless accusations of propaganda if you do not have the reliable sources to back up your own claims. Thanks, Ynhockey (Talk) 23:16, 15 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why doesn't it address the fact that Israel took this land from the Palestinians. The people who used to live in Sderot now live in refugee camps. It makes no mention of this, it is completely fabricated and biased towards Israels rewriting of history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.145.215.230 (talk) 04:49, 17 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Information about Najd

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Saluton recently unilaterally re-added some information about the village Najd. The information was removed many times by several different users, because it belongs in the main article, Najd, Gaza, which is linked in the text. I cannot see how capture of the town by the Negev Brigade is relevant to the city of Sderot, or its history, which started in 1953. I don't oppose a brief mention of Najd, just so anyone can follow the link and read for themselves, but who captured it or why is not relevant to Sderot. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 17:16, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What Walid Khalidi actually writes is not that Sderot was built on the side of Najd, but that it was build on "village lands" implying agricultural fields.160.39.35.50 (talk) 23:19, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Vandalism by Philip trueman

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Mr "True man" (as opposed one presumes to lesser breeds of humans) has been reverting attempts to establish neutrality on this page. Is there a way he can be banned? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.61.100.212 (talk) 18:54, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Human Shields

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While the IDF (Israeli Defence Force) criticizes Palestinian militants for using "human shields" in their continuing political struggle against Israeli expansionism, the truth of the use of "human shields" in Sderot is not even visited. Driven from Najd in the 1948 war, Palestinians have never given up their claim to the land that encompasses Sderot. What Israel has done is to use immigrants (and their children) as a human "buffer zone" between the encircled Gaza Strip and the rest of Israel. When Palestinian militants (Jihad, Hamas) retatliate against the continued Israeli occupation the nearest "target" happens to be Sderot, which is populated by recent arrivals. While Israel continues in its aggression against Palestinians, and their attempts at ethnic cleansing, they use attacks on Sderot as justification for their continued escalation of attacks on Gazan Palestinians, denying the fact that Israel placed their own citizens in harm's way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.126.170.20 (talk) 17:12, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Most heavily bombed place in the world?

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[5]. What do you guys think? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:12, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Latest shellings

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Per [6] and [7], Sderot has been fired on more recently than May. I doubt a "last hit" counter is truly necessary, would it be possible to remove the (broken) cite? 70.134.92.20 (talk) 03:48, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Edit war

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There are those that insist that history of Sderot include biased/controversial information that is off topic. There are other wiki pages dedicated to those topics. Those that continue to post should be punished for vandalism.67.142.167.23 (talk) 22:09, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It seems that this applies more to you than to those you criticize. The sourced part that you've removed had been worked on by a regular editor of that article and was sourced. --Túrelio (talk) 07:52, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oh really, and who would that be? And what makes a regular editor someone who vandalises regularly.204.15.6.65 (talk) 01:33, 18 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Najd and other notes

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There has been a constant edit-war on this article about Sderot's relation to Najd, and other issues. Until now I didn't think it was worth commenting on, but because a more prominent editor made an edit I disagree with, I have reworded the first paragraph and am posting here.

  • Firstly, the editor who put the information about Najd first unwittingly completely reversed the meaning of the paragraph. Sderot was not "also next to the Gevim-Dorot transit camp"; it was the Gevim-Dorot transit camp. However, the previous version was correct because the permanent structures were built next to the camp. After the edit this meaning was lost and a misleading meaning took its place.
  • Secondly, there have been a lot of attempts to insert WP:UNDUE information into the article. Information on the village Najd belongs in the article on the village Najd. Sderot is not Najd, and they are not related in any way, except that Sderot sits on land that belonged to Najd (not on the site of the village itself!). Moreover, the information, while sourced, is dubious, because either Khalidi does not mention how much of Sderot's land sits on the land of Najd, or the editor who used him as a source did not place this information. Sderot expanded exponentially since 1954, and commands a much larger jurisdiction today.
  • Some basic information about Najd would be necessary if Sderot was located on the site of the village, but it is not, as even the anti-Israel site www.palestineremembered.com admits. None of the buildings or ruins of Najd are currently located in Sderot.

—Ynhockey (Talk) 02:20, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, hi, sorry for the delay, (and it is not exactly the first time you comment on the Najd-issue (see above, on this talk-page ;)) Anyway, here are a few points:

  • I assume you refer to this edit by me, back on 7 March 2010. Now, there were several problems with this article in the state I found it before my edit:
    • The article then said: "Sderot was founded in 1951 next to the Gevim-Dorot transit camp, on the land of the former Palestinian village of Najd"...*and* the ref given for this was: "Morris, Benny (2004)etc". BUT: this information is *not* in Morris! (And if it is something I really, really hate, it is info that is, on the surface, sourced, but when you look into it...the alleged info is not in the source given at all.) The source to Sderot being on Najds grounds are to Khalidi, and that is what I changed it to.
    • Secondly; I tried to put into a separate sentence that which was unsourced (the transit-camp-info). From what I understand from Ynhockey above, it is both correct to say that A)Sderot "was the Gevim-Dorot transit camp." B)Sderods "permanent structures were built next to the camp". Fine, as long as it is sourced (correctly!) it is fine with me. And I assume both are -now- sourced to HaReuveni.
    • However; one thing I strongly object to, is the mess-up of the time-line. When I write the history of a place, I always try to follow the time-line, ie; we describe the events of 1948, before we mention the events of 1949, then 1950 (if any), then 1951 (if any), etc, etc. In the article now we have the events of 1956...and *then* we mention events which date back to 1948? This is plain messy and bad writing, IMO.
    • As I am sure people know: the average Palestinian village was normally a place where people lived very close together, while they, typically, owned much larger areas in the vicinity which they then used for agriculture. The new Israeli places hardly ever were *directly* in the old village site (a few exceptions, the "better" villages like Ayn Hawd and Ijzim), instead it was somewhere else on village land. The village of Najd had 13,576 dunums of land in the last survey before the war...compare that with (presently) Sderots 4,472 dunams. Or HaNer was also founded on village land..I don´t know how much land they took.
    • To allegations of WP:UNDUE--well, that is closely linked to how much is written under Rocket fire from Gaza in the article, isn´t it? If the section was one or two lines, I could understand it. But, in view of the all the details in that section, I simply cannot see that my edit violated WP:UNDUE. It is a question of seeing the context -without having to click on the link to Najd. AFAIK, it is an undisputed fact that the owners of the land of Sderot were driven out by force in 1948, many ended up in Gaza -and some, maybe, are behind the rocket attacks on people they view as thieves....... However, I´m not going to spend much time on this; as I suspect we have a zillion editors here ready to edit-war to keep this out (and who, apparently at the same time are unable to discover pure falseness inserted into the article.) Go figure.

Cheers, Huldra (talk) 22:21, 26 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Huldra, IMO, has a point in that if the rocket fire is emphasized at length, it makes sense to also provide the context for it, which is that the Palestinians feel they're firing rockets into their own land. --Dailycare (talk) 11:14, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Please, let's stop the soapboxing.
Huldra: You are right about Arab land ownership, and this is why I don't dispute the likelihood that Sderot was on the land of Najd—but it is not clear whether it was entirely inside the jurisdiction of Najd. However, I wouldn't give this high importance; land ownership laws and customs are fundamentally different in Israel from what is accepted in Arab lands, therefore, in general, making the link between Israeli localities and lands belonging to former Arab villages is much like comparing apples to oranges.
About writing in chronological order, again, I believe you are forgetting that the article is about Sderot, not Najd. Therefore, it has to be clear how everything that's written is related to Sderot. When an event is described that happened before Sderot's founding, that had no direct relation to the town, it's unclear why it's even there. When it's put into context however, it is much more understandable. —Ynhockey (Talk) 22:38, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

as one who is regulary investigating this issue, all the way from Sderot to Najd, about 3 Kilometers, is hilly and it couldnt have been a place for agriculture. it is very confusing, how does Sderot with population of 19,300, factories, shopping centers and etc. use 4,700 dunams of land while Najd with population of 620 people uses 13,576 dunams? this number is remarkable, it means every resident of Najd had more then 21 dunams... and if we seperate it by householdes, every household had 100 dunams. WOW. —MaorM (Talk) —Preceding undated comment added 12:36, 3 May 2010 (UTC).[reply]

Does someone have the Khalidi book for reference? --Dailycare (talk) 15:44, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Of course I have the Khalidi-book. And I´m getting rather tired of people removing stuff because of "IDONTLIKEIT". Cheers, Huldra (talk) 15:55, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Huldra, could you scan and make available the salient part, or type a short verbatim citation here? Does Khalidi say Sderot is on the lands of the village, or next to them? --Dailycare (talk) 18:51, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Khalidi writes that Sderot is on Najd village lands, NOT "next to them". I have uploaded it here. Note that I do not have the copy-right licence, so the file might be deleted. Huldra (talk) 21:20, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Huldra, it appears then that the present version of the text accurately follows the source. --Dailycare (talk) 19:46, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This text is false and a lie, 620 people lived in 82 houses, which is 7.5 people for one 3X3meters house. there are ruins of 10 houses. Khalidi must be a liar. if I publish a book and will write there were 4 people living in Najd, will it be true? [User:MaorM|MaorM]] (talk) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.228.6.112 (talk) 05:13, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If you are an academic (like Khalidi) and publish something false (especially in such a contentious area as this); then I´m sure your academic peers would tear your work to pieces. That has not happened here. And MaorM; you should review WP:BLP: given your unfounded accusations about a man being a "lier". And so far, you simply havent´t come up with any proof at all, have you? You just don´t like/find it unbelievable what Khalidi writes. You know; that simply isn´t good enough reason to remove something. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 22:16, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Seems that MaorM has a slight reading difficulty. The number of houses 82 was for 1931 and the population 620 was for 1945. The population for 1931 was 422. These 1931 statistics are exactly as in the census report. Zerotalk 12:58, 4 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Removed population density comparison

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A comparison between the population density of the Gaza Strip (which is a territory, and not a city) to the density of Sderot (which is a town, and not a territory) is as irrelevant as a comparison between apples and oranges. A comparable statistic is the population density of Gaza City and that of Sderot. In this case we remark that Gaza City has a population density of almost 10,000/sq.km. compared to Sderot's ca. 4,000/sq.km. This makes Gaza City more than twice as dense as Sderot, not the other way around. 163.1.208.193 (talk) 21:47, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Coatrack

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Is there any specific reason why the Sderot page has a section for "Palestinian Attacks on Israel", but the ENTIRE GAZA STRIP page has nothing on the Israeli attacks? Why is there a child's drawing? Gaza have been under much heavier attack than Israel, and arguably even more Psychological trauma. Why doesn't the Gaza page say anything about the thousands of murders in the introductory paragraphs? This article is seriously horrifying

Cut the fucking bullshit propaganda and start being Neutral.

Let's start being neutral by deleting your noninformative Israel hating comments, jackass. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.72.65.162 (talk) 02:31, 4 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
1. sign your comments 2. it has nothing to do with neutrality, it is a major part of the life there 3. removed the neutrality tag as nobody opposes to it-- Someone35  18:17, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Tags for updating and sources

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I've placed two tags on the article. It's relying on sources that are many years old to make assertions about the present day. Further, sources for really important statements are based in some cases on blogs, eg http://quitenormal.wordpress.com/2011/07/17/rocket-attacks-from-gaza-continue-now-over-160-so-far-this-year/ which includes a statement, "remember, the media is the enemy" in a sidebar. That source, to name just one, obviously doesn't meet our standards. Basically, every ref in this article needs to be checked for currency and reliability. Perhaps other genuinely reliable sources can be found for content that's now cited to outdated or unreliable ones, or exclusively to primary sources. Please don't remove the tags unless you can personally assert that you've carefully completed this necessary process. Thanks,  – OhioStandard (talk) 11:49, 22 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If you a problem with certain statements, tag those. Adding vague tags at the top of an article is not helpful. Most articles on Wikipedia need updating. So are you going to tag them all?--Geewhiz (talk) 11:58, 22 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Gilabrand, although to be fair, the demographics section is outdated. We should use more recent CBS data. —Ynhockey (Talk) 12:42, 22 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for that, Ynhockey. It encourages me to risk a flyer: What if we were to actually try to improve this article together, instead of simply responding reflexively out of our differing political perspectives? Gilabrand, I don't claim to be any better at that very difficult task of self-monitoring and self-restraint than you, or than anyone else is. But you did revert my "out of date" and "sources" tags exactly two minutes after I placed them, as if I'd committed an aggressive act. That really wouldn't have given you a lot of time to evaluate whether they were legitimate.
I wasn't trying to be aggressive, though. I left the tags as an alternative to "wp:so fix it", because I didn't feel like jumping in here. My thinking is that people who live with such terribly difficult conditions tend to be hyper-sensitive to any kind of dissent or criticism, and, very understandably, to see anyone who hasn't gone through the same things as if they were clueless, hostile, presumptuous, or all three. I've never lived under the specific conditions that obtain in Sderot, and thus feel some reluctance to engage on the topic with people who might have done. Still, it seems a problem to me where this article uses sources and talks about events that took place during the roughly four days of Operation Hot Winter as if they were still the norm today in Sderot, Ashkelon, and the other border communities. That's what motivated the "out-of-date" tag.
And re the "sources" tag, I even kept in the blog post I brought to your attention, hoping you guys would see the kind of thing I was talking about, and would remove that yourselves. I've now done so, but you have to admit that was pretty good "jungle manners", yes? So in all sober earnest, having examined my conscience to exclude any thought of condescension, smart-ass intent, or suchlike thing, to the extent I'm able, could we all attempt the hard work of AGF for now? At least until, say, one of us insults the other's mother, religion, funny, curly head of hair - hey, I'm sensitive, okay? - opinions, sexual prowess, or intellect? I will, if you will. It might actually be kind of fun. Besides, what's the risk if this is all just an elaborate, Machiavellian ploy on my part, to lull you into complacency? It's only one article, and you're both smart enough to figure out whether I have a manipulative agenda pretty quickly.  – OhioStandard (talk) 03:43, 6 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Casualties

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I added the names, ages, and dates of death for eleven of the victims. The article says there have been a total of thirteen deaths, and I tried to list them all, but I could not find the names of the other two. Does anyone else know? --96.60.169.178 (talk) 21:03, 3 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Why the heck do we have this paragraph?? Shall we add similar paragraph, to say, each and every place on the Gaza strip?? I suggest that this paragraph is removed, or changed into "11 residents were killed by rocket fire between 2004 and 2008."Huldra (talk) 20:32, 8 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Dispute over images

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There appears to be a dispute about the value of adding images of buildings in Sderot being subject to rockets. I have yet to get a good reason as to why the images are removed seeing as there are many pages that depict similar material in similar quantities.

I am of the opinion that we ought to keep the images as they show a side to the conflict that is rarely seen if ever and thus contribute to a greater understanding.

Iwant2write (talk) 21:37, 13 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Huh?? Presently 7 (out of 11) pictures in the article are related to the rocket-attacks. What this article desperately needs, are more pictures *not* relating to the attacks. Huldra (talk) 20:08, 14 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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Hello fellow Wikipedians,

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History

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In History, another source of: "The development was located on the land of the Palestininan village of Najd which was depopulated during 1948 Arab-Israeli War" is All That Remains : The Palestinian Villages Occupied and Depopulated by Israel in 1948. Khalidi, Walid. Washington, D.C.: Institute for Palestine Studies. 1992. p. 128. ISBN 0-88728-224-5. OCLC 25632612.

I can't edit by myself due to WP:ARBPIA4 edit restrictions.

Thanks! User:Huldra Bustan1498 (talk) 19:28, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Jack Frost (talk) 09:42, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Please add

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in the lede, the number of yards (919) (for what we only now indicate in meters). --2604:2000:E010:1100:68A0:D758:F52B:2D8B (talk) 23:03, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Please add

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{{Largest Israeli cities}} 2604:2000:E010:1100:68A0:D758:F52B:2D8B (talk) 01:07, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Please add under notable residents ..

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--2603:7000:2143:8500:508B:C400:F170:5B (talk) 09:16, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Missing citation

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Under Culture, last paragraph mentions missing citation for the Dror Kessler's activity in Sderot. You may use this walla item: https://news.walla.co.il/item/2869795 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dror27 (talk • contribs) 13:57, 19 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Old talk-page

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The hyperlink here in this page's first line, "Article merged: See old talk-page here" leads to a page with "Talk:Sderot cinema From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Sderot_cinema but otherwise empty. Mcljlm (talk) 11:20, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Renaming

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Section #1 History includes both "The town was renamed Sderot after the Eucalyptus boulevard planted along the length of the town, whose planting provided employment to the residents of the settlement." and "Sderot received a symbolic name, after the numerous avenues and standalone rows of trees planted in the Negev, especially between Beersheba and Gaza, to combat desertification and beautify the arid landscape." separated by a paragraph. Perhaps they should be merged. The Hebrew article[1] has שדרות קיבלה את שמה לציון האקליפטוסים שנטעו על ידי הקרן הקיימת לאורך כבישי הנגב translated by Google as "Sderot got its name from the eucalyptus trees planted by the Jewish National Fund along the roads of the Negev.". Mcljlm (talk) 11:40, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A9%D7%93%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%AA#%D7%94%D7%99%D7%A1%D7%98%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%94

Picture

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I'm offering this picture as a better one of the city's skyline: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sderot_from_above.jpg Nizzan Cohen (talk) 06:22, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a section on Najd?

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Is there a section on Najd? 88.97.108.45 (talk) 10:31, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Why has the history been deleted?

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Why has the history been deleted? It was there last month. 88.97.108.45 (talk) 10:32, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sderot cinema

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I think the cinema paragraphs should be a separate subsection, along with a the viral image of the people watching. Hovsepig (talk) 16:23, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Expunging facts.Lockstep reverting without significant discussion

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These are all major excisions of factual material that is strongly sourced. No Israeli historian denies them. The first is a pretext. If DR objected to 'ethnically cleansed' then they might have changed the term to 'depopulated', conserving the text.No, the whole prehistory para was erased. Therefore the motivation is apparently not as asserted, a matter of wikivoice neutrality, but the content surrounding the challenged wording.

The same applies to EladKarmel, whose edit summary asserts that what Benny Morris, Julie Peteet, Robert Fisk, Walid Khalidi etc(more sources are in the texts cited) state as historical facts are 'extremely controversial claims'.

The text now reads 'depopulated' which is the euphemism for 'ethnic cleansing'. I have conflated the two separate source notes to avoid reduplication. Neither DRoth nor EKarmel noted that the facts they expunged in one section were affirmed a few lines later.

Removing sources of optimal quality on spurious grounds is a reportable offense. Nishidani (talk) 09:21, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Depopulation and ethnical cleansing are not the same... this is biased language. Do all the scholars you cited stand behind using the term "ethnical cleansing" as appropriate here? Also, WIkipedia dictates that "The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content." This content is disputed. Eladkarmel (talk) 10:21, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What source disputes this? nableezy - 17:56, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
per @Eladkarmel, Wikipedia regulations, contentious, partisan language. Homerethegreat (talk) 11:03, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Homerethegreat . Your edit is the third example of disattentiveness. In reverting me you expunged text that had been in this article, by consensus, for over a decade, namely Benny Morris and Walid Khalidi. So that is a revert showing you never even examined what you were doing, or what I did in the edit where I conflated new with preexisting sources already uncontroversially on the page. Disattention, in short, while simply endorsing unsighted what another editor, equally disattentive, claimedNishidani (talk) 12:21, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia is rule-governed. (a) two editors removed substantial text on the basis of one word, 'ethnic cleansing' for 'depopulation. Rather than challenge that one word, source-based, they expunged the entire text which documents the expulsion at gunpoint of 422 people for which there are several academic sources that establish its factuality. So the reverts are specious. In his reply EladKarmel does not reply to my point, but talks past it.
If several unimpeachable academic sources point to the immediate prehistory of Sderot in terms of the depopulation of the land on which it was built, it is not a matter of consensus, which in this area means, a numbers game. It is a matter of respecting impeccable documentary sources which connect the two. History is not an opinion. So address the issues, no WP:IDIDNOTHEARTHAT. Nishidani (talk) 12:15, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
ONUS does not mean "you can take out anything you don't like and demand that other people do the work of consensus building". That's not how it works. If you can't think of a good reason for challenging relevant text that is based on reliable sources, you don't have a case for taking it out. Anyway, consensus is not based on a vote but on argument quality. Nishidani has correctly appealed to source content. Homerethegreat has contributed exactly nothing except "me too". Eladkarmel's "extremely controversial", besides being simply wrong, isn't an argument at all without reasons. "Depopulation and ethnic cleansing are not the same" is a correct statement, as "depopulation" can mean many things, but that only implies that we shouldn't write "ethnically cleansed" when the source says "depopulated". But that isn't the case here; instead the sources are in agreement as to the nature of the depopulation. While Fisk uses "ethnic cleansing" (a phrase I am personally opposed to using in wikivoice), Morris uses "driven out" and Khalidi uses "expelled". Either "driven out" or "expelled" are a fine match to all three sources and we are entitled to use them. I recommend following Morris as his work is based on primary Israeli sources. Zerotalk 12:49, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. When the erased text is restored, depopulated can be changed to 'expelled'.Nishidani (talk) 13:04, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There are no Wikipedia regulations on contentious or partisan language, and you are removing well sourced material on specious grounds. That is tendentious editing and prohibited. If you have any policy based reason for exclusion please provide them, and as none has been provided I have restored the well sourced material. nableezy - 17:51, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Weird Spelling in population template

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I'm not sure what's going on here or how to fix it. But the population template seems to only work with a different spelling. {{Israel populations|Sederot}} I don't know if this is an error in the pop template {{Israel populations}} that can or should be fixed? or if it's a valid alternate Romanization that should be mentioned on this page? Is it definitely the right place?

I'm not sure how that template works? The Israeli government website that the template uses {{Israel populations}}[1] links to the website https://www.cbs.gov.il/en/settlements/Pages/default.aspx?mode=Yeshuv [2] and that seems to use the "Sederot" spelling in the table, but searching for either "Sederot" or "Sderot" gets nuls and dead links.

  1. ^ "Regional Statistics". Israel Central Bureau of Statistics. Retrieved 21 March 2024.
  2. ^ "Regional Statistics". www.cbs.gov.il. Retrieved 1 December 2023.

So I'm stumped. Irtapil (talk) 04:10, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what the issue is here, as the spelling "Sederot" does not appear in the article; it's simply a bit of code used in the background to allow the population to be shown here. The reason for that spelling being used in {{Israel populations}} is that this spelling is used by the CBS. The easiest way to update the template is to copy the contents into Excel and use a vlookup, which requires the same spelling to be used. Number 57 09:28, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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