Talk:Russo-Georgian War/Archive 10

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Total bias in "Humanitarian impact" section

This is for "South Ossetia" section on Wikipedia:

On August 8, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev stated: "Georgia’s actions have led to human losses, including among Russian peacekeepers... Georgian peacekeepers were opening fire at Russian peacekeepers with whom they were supposed to work together in... maintaining peace in the region. Civilians, women, children and old people are dying today in South Ossetia, and the majority of them are citizens of the Russian Federation".[1]

On August 8, the International Red Cross urged the combatants to make a humanitarian corridor to evacuate the wounded and civilians from Tskhinvali.[2][3] According to Russian sources, Tskhinvali's main city hospital was non-functional, and ambulances could not reach the wounded, while Georgia continued to bomb the hospital. Twenty-two wounded remained in the building, which reportedly had only two storeys left.[4] International Red Cross spokeswoman Anna Nelson said it had received reports that hospitals in Tskhinvali were "overflowing" with casualties.[5] According to Russia Today, more than 150 people were trapped under the rubble of the city hospital.[6] Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin alleged that Georgia was responsible for a "complete genocide."[7]

The UN refugee agency, UNHCR, said that thousands of refugees left South Ossetia, mostly for North Ossetia in Russia within the first days of the conflict.[8] About 140 buses, carrying thousands of refugees, had already arrived in North Ossetia on Friday evening, August 8, according to Reuters.[9]

Human Rights Watch visited a camp for the displaced in the village of Alagir and interviewed more than a dozen people, including those from Tskhinvali and neighboring villages. Those from the city reported spending more than three days in the basements of their houses, unable to come out because of the incessant shelling. Residents of Satikhar village said that after the village came under heavy artillery fire on the night of August 7, all women, children and elderly (more than 100 people) started fleeing their homes. Most of them spent the next two days hiding in the woods and then trying to make their way toward the Russian border. Later, the Russian military in the village of Ger helped in the displaced civilians' transport to North Ossetia.[10]

Eduard Kokoity stated from South Ossetia that the death toll has risen to 1,400 in South Ossetia.[11] Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin on August 9 upon his return from Beijing to Vladikavkaz claimed that "tens of people killed, hundreds wounded" and 34,000 refugees had crossed the Russian border.[12] The United Nations refugee agency said that between 10,000 and 20,000 people have been displaced within Georgia.[13] According to Russian sources, Tskhinvali was lying in ruins, and more than ten border villages were burnt to the ground as of August 9.[14][15] According to western media who arrived in the city later, however, "[s]everal residential areas seemed to have little damage" and "[r]eporters witnessed more than a dozen fires in what appeared to be deserted ethnic Georgian neighborhoods and saw evidence of looting in those areas.[16] According to Chicago Tribune, theater and typesetting school were heavily damaged or destroyed.[17]

The fighting interrupted electricity and telephone service in Tskhinvali, and some inhabitants sheltered in basements[18] with no access to water or medicines.[19] Human Rights Watch interviewed an Ossetian man who noted that Ossetians had lost property "in Tskhinvali and other places".[20]

Russian media reported on August 9 that several journalists were hiding in the basements, as they appealed to world society for a peace corridor to let them out of Tskhinvali.[21][22]

At a makeshift hospital camp in Alagir on August 9, Prime Minister Putin was told that Georgian troops had set fire to a house with several young women inside. "They were rounded up like cattle, shut into the house, and set on fire. In another place, we saw a tank run over an old woman who was running away with two children. We saw how they slashed up an 18-month child," a refugee said.[23] Russian reports cited the representative of South Ossetia administration who asserted that Georgian troops opened an irrigation canal to flood the basements of Tskhinvali in order to prevent people from hiding in the basements of the buildings during bombings.[24] and that Georgian tanks ran people down and that soldiers took away women.[25]

Human Rights Watch entered Tskhinvali on August 13 and reported that it saw numerous apartment buildings and houses damaged by shelling. It said some of them had been hit by "inherently indiscriminate" weapons that should not be used in areas populated by civilians, such as rockets most likely fired from Grad launchers. It said there was evidence of firing being directed into locations where civilians frequently choose as a place of shelter, such as basements. Human Rights Watch talked to a teacher at the local kindergarten, who said: "They were shooting from Grad rocket launchers, paying no attention to civilians living in these houses. We went deaf from the shelling. They simply wanted to wipe us off the face of the earth." The woman showed Human Rights Watch researchers the kindergarten building hit by the Grad rockets, as well as fragments of the rocket itself. [26]

What we got here?

1. SO is in Georgia. Why is "South Ossetia" section separate from "Georgia" section? It should be, say, "South Ossetia", "Gori", "Abkhazia" and "Elsewhere" sections, for example.

DISAGREE - Please tell me, we're not going to have this edit war of whether SO belongs to Georgia all over again. I'd have thought, it's already discussed more than necessary. ETST (talk) 14:25, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me good sir, but at this moment nothing changed an SO belongs to Georgia according to UN, Wikipedia (check out the maps of Georgia) and Georgia and every country in the world, possibly with the single exception of Russia. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 15:59, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

One could argue juxtoposition of de jure information and de facto situation in both SO and Abkhazia.theUg (talk) 19:51, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

2. Most of this are unconfirmed reports of Georgian atrocities bia the Russian/"Russian citizien" propaganda - by now, this stuff should be in propaganda, and here only confirmed reports (UN, HRW, IRC, etc.). Russian propaganda (there's only Russian propaganda there) BS which has to be removed or moved to "Propaganda" section was highlighted by me in strike.

DISAGREE - I've seen nothing to date, which unarguably disproves any of your "strike-marked BS", and still all of them are official claims from official sources. And to put it into "Propaganda" section, or anything of the sort, you should wait, till it will be stated as such by all sides of the conflict(unlikely event in the near future, don't you think?), otherwise, it will be no more than (even if heavily supported) POV. ETST (talk) 14:25, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Wrong aproach. Please find anything which confirms these statements as facts. I havent's see ANY confirmation of any of these wild claims from UN, HRW, IRC, OSCE, or even a third-country journalists on a Russian military media trip. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 16:02, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

3. There's no mention but "according to western media" of the widespread looting and destruction of the ethnic Georgian villages, and the 15,000[1] Georgian refugees get less space then the wild ravings of V.V. Putin. This is not "according to western media", it's a fact (HRW, UN) which was only confirmed by media from the third-party countries too.

Well, maybe. But where this claims of "widespread" came from? I see no such word in HRW report, moreover it doesn't precisely account for actual spread. I think, we should list specific affected areas with refs to HRW(You did that once). And, knowing you, Captain, I urge you not to address the looters as men from regular Ossetian Militia, or any other Russia-affiliated regular troops, without at least adding "allegedly". ETST (talk) 14:25, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Not isolated incidents - HRW researchers witnessed first-hand in several villages. They confirmed it's Ossetians, including a statement by an Ossetian officer saying they are destroying villages on purpose, to keep the Georgians from returning. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 16:02, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

4. As mentioned in the previous point, HRW quotations only regarding South Ossetians - and none of these disaproving Russian BS claims in the style of "total genocide".

DISAGREE - Goes to where your first point did. ETST (talk) 14:25, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Also, there's no mention(!) of the plight Georgians in Abkhazia. UNHCR via Reuters Reliefweb:

More than 700 frightened residents of the remote Khodori Valley in Georgia's breakaway Abkhazia region have been escorted to safety in a two-day operation mounted by UN refugee agency staff. (UNHCR secures safe passage for Georgians fearing further fighting)

Why are they "frightened" and need to be evacuated from the territory controlled by "peacekeepers", where the Georgian army did not attack so there's no "revenge"?

Hmm... I dunno. Maybe it were advancing Russian Hordes screaming out their thirst for Georgian blood? Or maybe it were retreating Georgian soldiers' shouts(just like the ones, voiced in Gori for no apparent reason, except panic-inducing) of 'run for your life' fallen on ordinary Georgians' ears, which were struck already by Saakashvili's broadcasted screams of 'Russia invades us'? Sigh. I think, we'll never know... ETST (talk) 14:27, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

By the same article: Right now there are 118,000 refugees, including 15,000 Georgians from SO (practically all of the Georgian population there) and 73,000 Georgians from "Georgia proper" (maybe including Abkhazia in the report), mostly Gori.

Of ~118,000 refugees, only 1/4 are Ossetians. The rest are Georgians. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 10:53, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I glad you've mentioned Gori. Again, i have to say, that i've seen nothing to date, that could justify people leaving Gori, except G-gov induced panic. And if we won't count Gori, then we'll get your statistic of 1/4 but this time it'll be in favor of Georgians. Of course, the Georgians are not where they're used to be, and nobody including me, will disregard that, but your implication of 1/4(O/G) ratio should be blamed on ""peacekeepers"" is, at least, unfounded. ETST (talk) 14:27, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

There are, let's say, 30,000 Ossetian refugees and 15,000 Georgian refugees from South Ossetia, so hardly four times more Osetians. " G-gov induced panic" - you say, Tbilisi ordered the panicky rout of its own forces from Gori, making them abandon their guns, vehicles, barracks and army depots on purpose? This is very interesting, but I think people rather fled the guys who are now looting & burning, after the Georgian army abandoned them to the enemy mercy. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 15:49, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Cleanup, too

Also, what remains should be cleaned up, becuase it' badly written and mostly look like just copy-pasted (and doesn't matter if's in citation marks, it should be edited, it's supposedly encyclopedia and not a blog entry or a press article - if anyone wants to read more, they can click the link rwead in the source).

For example, the apparant copypasta of:

Human Rights Watch talked to a teacher at the local kindergarten, who said: "They were shooting from Grad rocket launchers, paying no attention to civilians living in these houses. We went deaf from the shelling. They simply wanted to wipe us off the face of the earth." The woman showed Human Rights Watch researchers the kindergarten building hit by the Grad rockets, as well as fragments of the rocket itself.

Should instad be:

HRW researchers found a kindergarten building hit by the Grad rockets, as well as fragments of the rocket itself.

If I'm back and nobody cleaned up this, I'll do it myself. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 11:12, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

DISAGREE - I believe, most of people do not look into ref's section, unless they're doing some research requiring strict verifictation, while, i feel, this witness' impression of what have happened is notable, and changes the whole tone of the section. ETST (talk) 14:29, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Ha, they should. Are you going to post whole HRW reports here? Btw, the previous section manipulated sources: for example, the "Ossetian man" in Wikipedia complaining about the lost property in reality was an Ossetian militiaman saying why he's looting. Yes - I checked, and you should too - everyone should, instead of believeing Wikipedia editors. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 15:15, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

About moving to the "Propaganda" section

If there was such a section one could fill it with reports from CNN, who do nothing but ignore the Russians and totally side with the Georgian President, who for the theatre of world media is playing the wounded aggressor. luckluckluck —Preceding unsigned comment added by Luckluckluck (talk • contribs) 08:19, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

There's no such section, but should be (about the stuff which was presented as facts and provided as a justification for the invasion, but later turned out to be untrue). For example, we take the lie of:

According to Russian sources, Tskhinvali's main city hospital was non-functional, and ambulances could not reach the wounded, while Georgia continued to bomb the hospital. Twenty-two wounded remained in the building, which reportedly had only two storeys left.[4]

and the lie of:

According to Russia Today, more than 150 people were trapped under the rubble of the city hospital.[6]

and make it:

• According to Russian sources, Tskhinvali's main city hospital was non-functional, and ambulances could not reach the wounded, while Georgia "continued to bomb" the hospital, which allegedly had only two storeys left and where 22 wounded were alleged to remain.[4] According to Russia Today, "more than 150 people were trapped under the rubble of the city hospital".[6] However, it turned out that the city hospital, which was hit in the roof by a single Grad rocket, did not collapse. The Grad rocket damaged part of the second and third floors of the building. The hospital, whose outer walls were also hit by either small arms fire or shrapnel, continued to operate in the building's basement until August 13, when all the wounded (of which 273 were admitted in during the fighting) were evacuated to Russia.

Instead, Wikipedia is promoting disproved lies as "humanitarian impact". --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 11:28, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

As i have already said, i don't think we're ever going to reach consensus on the matter of existence of such section. Moreover, as far, as i can see, you failed to provide any refs to your "turned out" proposal. Add them, and we'll discuss that further. ETST (talk) 14:29, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Already done (btw, the damage by the rocket in the hospital is not even visible from the outside[2]). --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 15:11, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Captain and his bloody hungry beast - How much people you need bleeding and dying to call in "humanitarian impact"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.102.43.111 (talk) 13:40, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Only exactly how many had bleed and die and not even one more. Hey, shouldn't you be actually happy that 2,000 people didn't die? --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 13:54, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Tagging "original research" to the section. The "propaganda" is the conclusion of Wikipedia editor. --Anton Gutsunaev (talk) 17:06, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

So remove these lies altogether. :shrug: It's actually kind of beating a dead horse anyway. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 17:24, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

If there is to be a section of this kind, I think ”Propaganda” is too wide a term. I propose ”Information warfare” instead, or possibly ”Disinformation”, or ”Alleged disinformation”, if you like.--gnirre (talk) 21:38, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Unused for now

OK.

• On August 8, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev stated: "Georgia’s actions have led to human losses, including among Russian peacekeepers... Georgian peacekeepers were opening fire at Russian peacekeepers with whom they were supposed to work together in... maintaining peace in the region. Civilians, women, children and old people are dying today in South Ossetia, and the majority of them are citizens of the Russian Federation".
• Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin alleged that Georgia was responsible for a "complete genocide."
• Eduard Kokoity stated from South Ossetia that the death toll has risen to 1,400 in South Ossetia.
• Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin on August 9 upon his return from Beijing to Vladikavkaz claimed that "tens of people killed, hundreds wounded" and 34,000 refugees had crossed the Russian border.
• According to Russian sources, Tskhinvali was lying in ruins, and more than ten border villages were burnt to the ground as of August 9.
• At a makeshift hospital camp in Alagir on August 9, Prime Minister Putin was told that Georgian troops had set fire to a house with several young women inside. "They were rounded up like cattle, shut into the house, and set on fire. In another place, we saw a tank run over an old woman who was running away with two children. We saw how they slashed up an 18-month child," a refugee said.
• Russian reports cited the representative of South Ossetia administration who asserted that Georgian troops opened an irrigation canal to flood the basements of Tskhinvali in order to prevent people from hiding in the basements of the buildings during bombings. and that Georgian tanks ran people down and that soldiers took away women.

I didn't even chceck the Georgia section, but I guess it may has similar problems.(?) "Buses" link was dead. (And yes, I check the links and the content - everyone editing should.) --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 13:52, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

And yeah, Georgia proper reports also should be cleared of media sensationalism and the possibly rumour-type stories of panicky refugees (which may be or may not be confirmed later) and only post the preliminarily confirmed reports (of which some might also be corrected later). For example, the Cluster bombing of Gori. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 15:42, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, remove all the supposedly Russian POV, and fill it up with your pro-Georgia crap... That's what you do, isn't it. As long as it's AGAINST Russia, it's not POV? I esspecially like how you removed all the Russian sources, yet left all the Georgian/Western POV. Hypocrites.--SergeiXXX (talk) 16:36, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

And the examples of the "pro-Georgia crap" in this section now? You can't possibly mean the HRW and UN, can you? No, "it's not POV". See also what I wrote about the media reports, just above (should be not used if only second-hand, like "refugees say militiamen murder and rape" and the journalists didn't witness it). --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 17:15, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, I noticed you ONLY pointed out everything that argues the Russian side. That's POV.--SergeiXXX (talk) 17:30, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Because there was just no Georgian propaganda in this text. If you see any, point it in bold. Go on. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 17:41, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Humanitarian impact. South Ossetia.

"Since Georgian and Russian forces use identical Soviet-era weapons systems including Grad rockets, HRW couldn't definitely attribute specific battle damage to a particular belligerent" What a bunch of crap. Why would Russian bomb South Ossetians? They are our friends. They are on our side. Its OBVIOUS that this was the work of the Georgians.--SergeiXXX (talk) 17:46, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I think you should learn what the Human Rights Watch is. ("Human Rights Watch has been criticized for perceived anti-Western, anti-China, and anti-Israel bias while others have criticized it for having a pro-Western and pro-Israel bias." - which means they're completely neutral, and just for the truth and the equal human rights everywhere.) The source said: "There were also several aerial bombardments of Gori from August 9 through 12 which could only have been carried out by Russian airplanes."[3] (And "why should Russian bomb" Grozny and the rest of Chechnya, repeatedly, for weeks and even months, in several battles in two wars? Were the Chechens and ethnic Russians and others, all "Russian citiziens" - not "your friends"? Less friends than the Georgian minority? Or would you say it didn't happen?) --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 18:20, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

As for Human Rights Watch and their alleged neutrality, the same article you quote defines it as US-based organization; and notice 'pro-US' or 'anti-US' are nowhere in its profile. Given how much emphasis US put onto information warfare to protect its ally, I won't rule out poissibility of HRW being politically biased, also, looking up their website makes impression that they're at least, hmm, cautious in discussing US matters. So their opinion, IMO, has the same weight as Russian's opinion; it should get confirmation from other media sources.

Besides, there're many blogs with photo/video of Georgian atrocities, as well as Russian media is filled with them. So both Russian and HRW/US claims should be put in the same section, with 'alleged' word preceding them. Once any of those gets confirmed by diffrent media source, some can be ruled as 'trustworthy' and some as 'information warfare'. As for Georgians, their media is filled with sick statements too. Their claims of Roki tunnel destruction, Russian tanks assaulting Tbilisi, etc. etc. were all later declared untrue. 78.29.67.134 (talk) 18:55, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

"There were also several aerial bombardments of Gori from August 9 through 12 which could only have been carried out by Russian airplanes."

Ok. Sure, Russia bombed Gori. I'm not disputing that. I was talking about Tshinvali.--SergeiXXX (talk) 18:26, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Since Georgian and Russian forces use identical Soviet-era weapons systems including main battle tanks, Grad multiple-launch rockets, BMP infantry fighting vehicles and tube artillery, Human Rights Watch cannot definitely attribute specific battle damage to a particular belligerent, but witness accounts and the timing of the damage would point to Georgian fire accounting for much of the damage described below.

Anything else? And didn't Russia bomb the Russian citiziens in Grozny - a much larger city on a much larger scale, and much longer too (to say least)? What's so supposedly different between the Russian army in Russia (Grozny) and the Russian army in Georgia (Tskhinvali) to make it even a littlest bit incredible? Russia literally(!) leveled much of a city of Grozny, but couldn't even damage a town of Tskhinvali? --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 18:42, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

And that's also what Mikhail Sakaashvili said, check it out here,[4] he also compared it with the bombing of grozny. 62.163.232.175 (talk) 19:58, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

It's hardly Grozny in any case. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 21:00, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Strike-through text

Needs Section on US Interests

Considering that the US held military operations with Georgia just before this, that the US wants to put ABM's in Georgia, President Bush's various pronouncements, McCains pronouncements and that Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili says "he talks to McCain, a personal friend, several times a day," it seems there needs to be such a section. (According to Dan Eggan and Robert Barnes, McCain's Focus on Georgia Raises Question of Propriety, Washington Post, Friday, August 15, 2008, A16. McCain also announced this week that two of his closest allies, Sens. Lindsey O. Graham (R-S.C.) and Joseph I. Lieberman (I-Conn.), would travel to Georgia's capital of Tbilisi on his behalf, after a similar journey by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice....The extent of McCain's involvement in the military conflict in Georgia appears remarkable among presidential candidates, who traditionally have kept some distance from unfolding crises out of deference to whoever is occupying the White House. Carol Moore 15:09, 17 August 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}

Children evacuation

It should be noted that the children began to be evacuated on the 2nd; and, was over by the 5th. Prior to a "Georgian aggression".

[5] [6] [7] PlanetCeres (talk) 15:36, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Specifically the sentence within the introduction,

In the following battle, the capital of South Ossetia, Tskhinvali, was heavily damaged. An estimated 24,000 to 30,000 out of the 70,000 South Ossetian population fled into North Ossetia (in Russia)[19]

refers to it happening afterwards. When a large part happened before.PlanetCeres (talk) 15:40, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Clashes began intensifying since August 1. I'm not sure why this article takes the 7th as the beginning point. Perhaps this can be detached into a separate paragraph. --Illythr (talk) 15:49, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

The 7th was when it became an international problem. Please note that I have not tried to include the Russian military exercises that had just conveniently ended in the area.PlanetCeres (talk) 15:53, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

So Georgia was dangerously building up its fire, and children were evacuated. Then Georgia invaded. Good for the children who were saved from Georgian invasion. --CopperKettle (talk) 16:01, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Except, that at the same time of the evacuation, "volunteers" entered Georgia.PlanetCeres (talk) 16:03, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

You mean South Ossetia, in wich a referendum showed an overwhelming will for independence and which stood up alone against Georgian invasion after its autonomy was cancelled in the beginning of the 90s? South Ossetia, in wich a generation grew up and finished school never being under Georgian control? --CopperKettle (talk) 16:09, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I personally respect Ossetian desires for independence. But, it was just not the fact of the matter.PlanetCeres (talk) 16:14, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

So "volunteers" infiltrated beyond to the Georgia-controlled zone? --CopperKettle (talk) 16:16, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

By the way, there were military excercises with US participations in July (in Georgia), in the days that saw a dramatic increase in military budget by the extraordinary parliament session. --CopperKettle (talk)

Open mind? "volunteers" (Combatants) entered internationally recognised Georgian territory..... And, the U.S. went into Russia like the Russians did to Georgia (Sarcasm). Sorry.PlanetCeres (talk) 16:24, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Open mind? "Volunteers" entered Kosovo to fight on the secessionist's side. But USA sided with albanian population, and that makes them good. Now USA just cut a slice of Serbia, and turned the face away from international indignation. That is good. But what is good for USA is bad for Russia. --CopperKettle (talk) 16:31, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

All agressive pairs are equal, but Bush&Condoleeza are more equal than Medvedev and Putin. I see. Like Bonny&Clyde, they are glamorous. (0: --CopperKettle (talk) 16:33, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I really am sorry. But, it does hurt for me to type. You're (Copper) obvious hatred of the U.S. means your probably should not take part anymore. And, goodbye. PlanetCeres (talk) 16:34, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I never hated US and nevew will. I loathe a bit the current administration of this country. And shocked by the lies in the current dirty anti-Russian media war. And its not for you to decide whether I have right to take part in the editing. Show a single biased "diff" from me. --CopperKettle (talk)

It was on the 8th when the Russians invaded that it became an international problem!Bdell555 (talk) 16:35, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Getting back to the subject at hand, how about:

An estimated 24,000 to 30,000 out of the 70,000 South Ossetian population fled into North Ossetia (in Russia), some of them before the intense fighting broke out.

--CopperKettle (talk) 16:46, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

btw if i remember right then also there were somekind evacuation of Georgian civilians from SO somewhere between August 1-7 and it was speculated that it is pretty certain indicator for war that both sides are evacuating their people --Zache (talk) 17:04, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Early evacuation is indeed mentioned further down in the article. Ceres' proposal is to tweak the intro phrase a bit so that the reader knows that not all of the 30 000 were evacuated due to Georgian invasion itself. --CopperKettle (talk) 17:10, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Another variant:

Starting on the 2nd of August and increasing with the intensifying fighting, a stream of refugees from South Ossetia fled into Russian region of North Ossetia, reaching an estimated 24 000 to 30 000 of the 70 000 overal population.

--CopperKettle (talk) 17:16, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Added this variant. --CopperKettle (talk) 17:22, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Roki Tunnel problem

The Roki tunnel between Georgia's South Ossetia and Russia has been a source of dispute between Russia and Georgia since the 1990s. Just two days (!) before the war erupted, US State Department spokesman Gonzalo Gallegos said that Washington would like to see "joint Georgian-Russian monitoring of the Roki tunnel, to stem the flow of illicit arms, ammunition and armed groups into the region."[8]. This is important enough to be mentioned in the article, methinks.--93.177.151.101 (talk) 18:08, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

KOSOVO Information

The information about Kosovo and it's relation to this conflict is excessive. For example, it is the largest subheading in the background section, but gives very little information about South Ossetia; although, it gives extremely repetitive information (mostly pulling from quotations) about why Russia cites the situation as a precedent for sending their own troops into the breakaway provinces of Georgia and Georgia proper. Some of these quotations are not cited well and/or are wholly unnecessary to this article: "An UN Security Council diplomat said "Strategically, the Russians have been sending signals that they really wanted to flex their muscles, and they’re upset about Kosovo."" Who is this Security Council diplomat? What country are they from? Does this information have anything to do with Georgia? And if everything is legitimate then (grammar) some should change "An" to an "A". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Menrunningpast (talk • contribs) 17:47, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Very much agreed, the text does not belong to this article. What we need is a section detailing the US reaction the US is very much a party to this as a military ally of Georgia fighting with their troops side by side in Iraq for example. Hobartimus (talk) 18:18, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks!Menrunningpast (talk) 21:40, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

"Background to war" - Sunday Times Article

I offer for the possible improvement of this article the following from the Sunday Times (in the UK) which offers some interesting background regarding the "behind the scenes" issues leading up to the conflict in South Ossetia - http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4545980.ece

doktorb _words^deeds 19:05, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I've also translated a piece telling of the events in the runup to the Georgian invasion. Talk:Timeline_of_the_2008_South_Ossetia_war#Georgian_police_car_bombed_on_31th_July_.28Novaya_Gazeta.29 Here. --CopperKettle (talk) 19:32, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Very well balanced account of what happened, the part talking about the diplomatic efforts to stop the conflict from starting are unique, nowhere I've seen so much detail. IMO we should add it to the article. The article is quite unbiased.

Thanks doktorb for posting the link.

⇨ EconomistBR ⇦ Talk 20:59, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I quote from the doctor's article:

The US State Department’s internal timeline of the crisis pinpoints the explosion on August 1 of two roadside bombs, believed to have been planted by South Ossetian separatists sympathetic to Russia, as a decisive moment. Five Georgian policemen were injured, one severely.

Novaya Gazeta tells of this incident thus:

..This war was brewing up for a long time, but one incident served as a formal pretext. On the 31th of July, a Georgian police car was blasted using a self-made remotely controlled device on a detour road near the Eredvi village to the east of Tskhinvali. Russian peacekeepers had time to carry out an investigation and found that two 122 mm Russian-type howitzer shells were used.
The policemen's Toyota was totally wrecked, and five Geogrians were injured. Just at the same spot, but on the 4th of July that year, similar explosive was used to destroy a car that carried the head of the provisional pro-Georgian administration of South Ossetia Dmitry Sanakoyev. After the blast the car was fired upon, but Sanakoyev came out unscathed though his bodyguards were wounded. Sanakoyev had been a minister of defence in the separatist government of South Ossetia, but later broke up from Kokoyti and passed to the Georgian side with a group of his Ossetian militant followers. Kokoyti and his supporters consider Sanakoev a traitor.
On the 1st of August the Georgians striked back and fired at Ossetian positions, for the first time using long-range big-caliber rifles. The separatists didn't expect such an attack and suffered noticeable losses, replying with a mortar fire directed at Georgian villages, and this fact was noted by the Russian peacekeepers. In the following days the Ossetians started an active provocation campaign, apparently aiming to bring on the full-blown conflict and draw in the Russians, and in this they funally succeded. ..

Best regards, --CopperKettle (talk) 21:11, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

So it's one bomb made of two artillery shells, as Russian peacekeepers investigation tells. --CopperKettle (talk) 21:18, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

The article tells of the event of 31st-1st as Russian provocation, and this could just be, we dont know. But further on it tells that Rice just barely stopped Saakashvili from launching an offensive agains Abkhazia earlier this year. So the war should've happened without any provocation; and I guess Abkhazians would've defended even without Russian help. --CopperKettle (talk) 21:58, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

On the whole, the most balances article as of yet, with a little surprizing implication that Russia would've rolled the tanks in without an offensive from Georgia; this I doubt. But at least it agrees that offensive caused much troubles to civilians and such. --CopperKettle (talk) 22:08, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I quote:

Whatever the final death toll, few dispute that the city suffered destruction and that civilians were hardest hit. Nor is there any doubting Albina Shanazarov’s tragic fate. A 13-year-old girl, she sought to flee the city with her mother and three sisters...

..etc. --CopperKettle (talk)

Only stupid people take everything published in British, or for that matter any country's newspapers, as true. I remember, in the run up to the 2003 invasion of Iraq, MI6 had Czech Intelligence place a fabricated article about Iraqi WMD in their newspapers, so that it could be picked up by British newspapers and republished, so as to add materially to the fiction. And that is just one example of how we are daily fed fiction from a rich tapestry of lies. 192.190.108.28 (talk) 01:44, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Pictures deleted

May I ask why exactly pictures that I uploaded under Creative Commons Attribution by Arkady Babchenko were deleted? I uploaded a bunch of them, and asked the author (Arkady Babchenko) personally if it was alright to use them. Direct quote: "Огромная просьба, когда будете выкладывать их где-либо в сети, упоминайте не только авторство Аркадия Бабченко, но и то, что они принадлежат Альманаху «Искусство Войны» (http://www.navoine.ru)." Translation: "if you post these pictures somewhere else, please note the author, Arkady Babchenko, and navoine.ru".

http://www.navoine.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?p=610#610

--Mrcatzilla (talk) 19:06, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

He said they belong to the almanach "Art of war"? Then they are probably not free, and that may be the reason for the deletion. Optimally the images should be totally free for use. Also if you find such images, try to put them directly in WikiCommons. Best regards, --CopperKettle (talk) 19:40, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

There were multiple problems during the last few days about people uploading war images under false license declarations, so admins are rather quick on the delete button now. Perhaps an admin may have been a bit too quick in some instance or other. Can I get this clarified (as I don't read Russian) - this was a webforum where the guy who posted the images said he was himself the photographer, he'd actually been down there with the army and taken photographs and owned the copyright, yes? And that "Almanach", what kind of a publication is that? - Also, did he explicitly allow re-use in other venues besides Wikipedia, including commercial ones? Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:51, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Casulties

The georgian armed forces suffered losses about 133 servicemen. That was confirmed on Sunday 17th august 2008 by georgian soldiers during an interview at a military base —Preceding unsigned comment added by ComanL (talk • contribs) 20:39, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

You need to give us a source before we can put that in. Was it on Georgian TV? I'd probably be prepared to believe you seeing as we may not be footnoting the infobox anyways.Bdell555 (talk) 01:19, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Quoting Governments

I have edited rather drastically. My view continues to be that neither the Russian nor the Georgian (nor the American) Government is a reliable source, and we can leave out claims which are solely reprinting their various spokebeings. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:30, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

When we do want to say something about American actions, this report that the Americans warned Saakashbili to be cautious, but did not tell him they would not support him, and that "they believed they had an understanding with Russia that any response to Georgian military action would be limited to South Ossetia," should be included. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:31, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Times online also speaks extensively on US actions to try to contain Saakashvili's vigor. (from a link by doctorb higher up) --CopperKettle (talk) 22:40, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

On August 16, The general staff of Moscow confirmed that Russia had occupied Poti, as well as military bases in Gori and Senaki. It stated that they were there to "defuse an enormous arsenal of weapons and military hardware which have been discovered in the vicinity of Gori and Senaki without any guard whatsoever."

This is unacceptable. The Russian Government cannot confirm anything; nor can the Georgian Government: they are the interested parties, and we are not here to reprint their public statements.. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:43, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Can you please cite a wikipedia policy for this? I find it rather ridiculous that you don't think the Russian government is reliable enough to confirm that they've occupied a town and destroyed military equipment, which falls in line with what the BBC and Guardian are saying. Your view may be that it's not, but my view is that statements are what they are, reliable or not, they shouldn't be censored, and I've never heard of a wikipedia policy backing that view up. LokiiT (talk) 22:55, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the governments are apt to misinform, especially in a war, but shouln't there be some "common sense" rule: if the presumed fact told by a government is apparent, just add it? --CopperKettle (talk) 22:59, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

If the presumed fact asserted by a government is obvious, and it is (as here) of world-wide interest, someone else will say it, as something they have observed. Half of this is an assertion we already have: that the Russians are in Gori and Senaki; the second asserts the purpose of the Russians remaining, which is crystal-ballery. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:07, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

We don't make up rules, we have to adhere to wikipedia policies and guidelines. Wikipedia requires verifiability, not truth. See WP:V. As long as we mention that it's the government making the statements, there's nothing wrong. LokiiT (talk) 23:02, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

We don't quote interested parties when (as here) we can find disinterested ones; that's part of verifiability. Doing so risks deceiving the reader by inducing him to overlook the source of the information. We don't put in long quotations of doubtful factualty; that violates WP:UNDUE. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:10, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Please cite a source that says official government statements can't be quoted, assuming the source is reliable. By your logic, we can't add that Medvedev said the pullout will start on Monday because he's an "official source". WP:UNDUE only applies if the addition is bigger than it should be, that doesn't mean you can remove the quote in its entirety. There's nothing wrong with saying that Moscow officials confirmed what the BBC and Guardian reported, nothing at all. LokiiT (talk) 23:13, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Show any reason for a neutral reader to believe that a government spokesman is reliable, Russian, Georgian, Ossetian, or American. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:15, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

In brief, don't cite people who "are apt to misinform". There is no good reason for doing so, unless better citations are not available; and even then there's a sound case for silence. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:14, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

There is good reason for doing so. It's called WP:NPOV, one of the most important aspects of editing on wikipedia. It's not up to you to decide who's "apt to misinform", that's wp:OR. The only important aspect to quoting governments is making sure such statements are reliably sourced, in this case they are. All I can really gather from your argument is that you don't like something therefore it shouldn't be in the article, but wikipedia doesn't work like that.LokiiT (talk) 23:16, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Repeating the statements of either side in the interest of NPOV is preposterous. I will give it some time to see what course of dispute resolution is most suitable. Hopefully, consensus will have removed this channelling of propaganda - and, I repeat, I object equally to Georgian propaganda - before I return to this. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:24, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

"Repeating the statements of either side in the interest of NPOV is preposterous" ...?????? LokiiT (talk) 23:27, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Perhapt it would be clearer to say that repeating the Russian [or the Georgian] case for themselves, including their crystal-ballery, is preposterous. We could, in theory, neutralize it partly by citing the numerous sources who don't believe them; but that would merely add a cloud of words to what we should have in the timeline: the events which have observably happened on the ground according to the most disinterested sources.

That is what we did have, before Lokiit changed it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:33, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

The most directly relevant policy statement can be found at WP:PRIMARY. The publications of an interested party to a dispute or issue are generally regarded as primary sources. As such, they are not to be used except as descriptions of the various positions. If Russia says that the war began with A and Georgia says it began with B, then NPOV allows and encourages the article to recount those positions as positions. It does not allow the article to leave matters there if there are any secondary sources that are reasonably independent of the parties and that can provide context. Robert A.West (Talk) 02:34, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Internal linking of dates in article and general dating

The article has many date references, some in the format of ex. August 17 or August 17, 2008, but there is no consistency in the format. Also, dates are being internally linked i.e August 17,2008 and is it really necessary to do so? There are so many blue links that I feel the reader gets so mind boggled that he/she won't notice links that might enhance their understanding of the crisis.

So can we:

1. Agree on a consistent date format? [Month, Date] or [Month, Date, Year]
2. Remove internally linked dates to reduce "blue link" blindness?

I don't mind going through the article and reformating to whatever we can come to an agreement on. «Javier»|Talk 00:16, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Introduction in poor English

I understand there is a lot of editing on this page and it is difficult to keep track of all the edits, but the introduction is really hard to read for a native speaker without wincing, it seems to have been edited by many of the locals with their limited knowledge of English grammar. Does a native speaker have the time to revise at least the first 4 paragraphs? --Lgriot (talk) 06:43, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Not only the introduction; and the problem is not only non-native speakers. A group of editors might be able to meet separately to come up with a well written introduction, but I’m not sure how this would be done. Regardless, it seems there is way too much hostility over content to try to improve the writing -- charges of propaganda would follow. Right now it looks like this article will be written by those with the most time and stamina. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adjpro (talk • contribs) 15:41, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Polls

I have removed a line which said there were two polls for independence in 1992, which showed the will of the people wanted indepence. The article which is quoted for this is *before* the second poll (and so the sentence is not backed up by the article) and the first poll was not internationally recongized - not mentioning this is misleading. (Speaking purely personally, a 98% vote for anything smacks of vote rigging.) Toby Douglass (talk) 07:39, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

You should undo it. The information concerning the polls is essential part! Taamu (talk) 07:52, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

It needs modification before undoing. What the statement says and what the referred article say *are not the same*. Toby Douglass (talk) 15:40, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

The high figure might speak of rigging, might point to the fact that pro-unity folks were ousted and forced to flee, might speak of a nationalist surge in the days just after the conflict; with these caveats somehow mentioned, with references, it could be included at least in the "timeline", I think. --CopperKettle (talk) 11:35, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, I removed the line on the basis that the sentence and the referred article didn't match, as opposed to my views about the poll percentage. Toby Douglass (talk) 15:40, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Spartan's stupid copypasta

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2008_South_Ossetia_war&diff=232637655&oldid=232610559

A huge block of copypasted text.

Someone PLZ lock it from the new and unexperienced editors. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 09:04, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

The page is already semi-protected, which means that people who don't have an account on Wikipedia can't edit this article, and it also means accounts which are less than four days old can't either. If you think the level of protection should be greater, I believe that the next level above semi-protection is complete protection, which means that no-one can edit the article, and I do not believe that a move like that will be endorsed by an admin atm. I might be wrong in thinking that is the next level, though. JEdgarFreeman (talk) 12:27, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Strange editings - text disapperas.

Excuse me please, but recently I started a new section here, advising that we need to add info about that Georgia attacked it all first, about that it attacks Russian peacemakers base and that we need to add "USA interest" section to Russia interest, Osethias interest and so on. Now I can't see any tracks of these my text. It is not even in a "history". How's that?--Oleg Str (talk) 09:39, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Check the Archive. Taamu (talk) 10:26, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

EXTERNAL LINKS

WRITE (!!!!)

• TITLES OF THE ARTICLES

• SOURCES OF THE ARTICLES

• DATES OF THE ARTICLES

What the hell? Som guys put links alone, destroying references section. Others write things like "NY Times" (instead of The New York Times). As I said above, admins should protect this page from new users. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 09:52, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

(Trivia) Statements by involved parties

Use aany of this elsewhere if you want and if notable.

Remove an item from this list if used. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 10:42, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Georgia

File:Tbilisi-2008-08-12.jpg

Tbilisi demonstration against Russian intervention on August 12, 2008.

• Georgian president Mikheil Saakashvili claimed the Russians conducted a "well-planned invasion"
• "A sniper war is ongoing against residents of the villages in the South Ossetian conflict zone and as I speak now intensive fire is ongoing from artillery, from tanks, from self-propelled artillery systems – which have been brought in the conflict zone illegally – and from other types of weaponry, including mortars and grenade launchers", Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili said in a live televised address made at 19:10 7 August local time.
• "This is about annihilation of a democracy on their borders," Georgian President Saakashvili told the BBC. "We on our own cannot fight with Russia. We want immediate cease-fire, immediate cessation of hostilities, separation of Russia and Georgia and international mediation."
• Georgia's Security Council secretary, Alexander Lomaia, said Saakashvili's proposal means that the Georgian troops will withdraw from Tskhinvali, the provincial capital of South Ossetia, and stop responding to Russian shelling.
• Russia has "started a full-scale military invasion" of Georgia, the country's UN Ambassador Irakli Alasania said in New York.
• "If this is not war, then I wonder what is," Georgia's ambassador to the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, Victor Dolidze, told a crisis meeting of the OSCE's permanent council in Vienna.
• Georgian President Saakashvili stated, "What Russia is doing in Georgia is open, unhidden aggression and a challenge to the whole world. If the whole world does not stop Russia today, then Russian tanks will be able to reach any other European capital." He argued Russia was attacking Georgia because "[Georgia] want[s] to be free and we want to be a multi-ethnic democracy."
• In an interview with CNN, Saakashvili said that Georgia and Russia were practically at war. "We have Russian tanks moving in," he said. "We have continuous Russian bombardment since yesterday ... specifically targeting the civilian population. Russia is fighting a war with us in our own territory." He told the BBC: "Our troops are attacked by thousands of troops coming in from Russia."

• On August 12, Georgia instituted proceedings before the International Court of Justice against the Russian Federation for "its actions on and around the territory of Georgia" from 1991 to 2008, in breach of the 1965 International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (ICERD).

• On August 13, Georgia's Ministry of Defence reported on its web site that 4,600 Russian passports had been found in a Russian armed forces vehicle. These passports were said to have exhibited numerous irregularities — such as having consecutive serial numbers despite bearing different years of issuance — and none of them had been signed by their owners. Georgia suggested that this was evidence of a plan to increase the number of Russian "citizens" in South Ossetia in order to bolster Russia's claim that it was acting to protect its citizens.

• Also on August 13, Ex-President of Georgia Eduard Shevardnadze stated that "…Georgia should not have advanced into Tskhinvali in so unprepared a way. That was a grave error".

• Brigadier Gen. Col. Mamuka Kurashvili, in charge for overseeing peacekeeping operations for the Georgian Ministry of Defense, said Georgia intended to "restore constitutional order in the entire region."

Russia

• Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov in a BBC interview: "Peace is required and that is what we are going to achieve but we would not go beyond this."
• Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin said, "The actions of the Georgian powers in South Ossetia are, of course, a crime — first of all against their own people," and alleged Georgia was committing "complete genocide." Putin opined that the territorial integrity of Georgia has suffered a fatal blow. He later stated "the Georgian side was preparing aggression... Nobody was listening. And this is the result. We have finally come to it. However, Russia will of course carry out its peacekeeping mission to its logical end."
• Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said he was ordering the military prosecutor to document crimes against civilians (by Georgia) in South Ossetia. He said "The actions of the Georgian side led to deaths - among them are Russian peacekeepers. The situation reached the point that Georgian peacekeepers have been shooting at Russian peacekeepers. Now women, children and old people are dying in South Ossetia - most of them are citizens of the Russian Federation. According to the constitution, I, as the President of the Russian Federation, must protect lives and the dignity of Russian citizens wherever they are. Those responsible for the deaths of our citizens will be punished. He said it aims to force Georgia to accept peace and restore the status quo, and it is acting within its peacekeeping mission in South Ossetia, and in line with the mandate issued by the international community.
• After the GMT 4:00 8 August UN Security Council meeting, Boris Malakhov, spokesman of the Russian Foreign Ministry, said he hoped it was still possible to prevent "mass bloodshed," adding, "It now became clear why the Georgian side was refraining under various pretexts from signing a legally binding document on non-use of force"
• Russian envoy Yuri Popov said Georgia's military operation showed it could not be trusted and NATO should reconsider its plans to grant membership to Georgia. Popov said, "Georgia's step is absolutely incomprehensible and shows the Georgian leadership has zero credit of trust." He called Georgia's behavior treacherous.
• In a letter to all NATO members, Ambassador of Russia to NATO Dmitry Rogozin stated Georgia had "got a permit to start a military operation" after the 2008 NATO summit in Bucharest and warned against continued support of Georgia and its president.
• In North Ossetia's Vladikavkaz there were several demonstrations rallied by local Ossetians, with protesters shouting "Russia, save us!" and demanding the withdrawal of Georgian forces from South Ossetia.
• Chairman of Russia's State Duma Security Committee, Vladimir Vasiliyev, stated, "Georgia could have used the years of Saakashvili's presidency in different ways - to build up the economy, to develop the infrastructure, to solve social issues both in South Ossetia, Abkhazia and the whole state. Instead, the Georgian leadership with president Saakashvili undertook consistent steps to increase its military budget from US$30 million to $1 billion - Georgia was preparing for a military action."
• On 10 August 2008 Russian human rights commissioner (ombudsman) Vladimir Lukin called for creating an International Tribunal on South Ossetia. "That man who ordered a night attack on Tskhinvali is the main responsible person," he said.
• Vice Chairman of Russian parliament Vladimir Zhirinovsky in his speech on Echo Moskvy radio suggested bombing Tbilisi and bringing Saakashvili to trial, overthrowing his "fascist regime," as well as breaking all diplomatic and economic links with Georgia.
• [other reactions from Russian President Dmitry Medvedev, Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov and deputy Foreign Minister incorporated into initial paragraphs]
• Russia also laid much of the responsibility for ending the fighting on the United States, which has trained Georgian troops. Moscow ignored the Bush administration’s statement about “significant long-term impact on the U.S.-Russia relations”. Washington has not condemned Georgia’s attack on South Ossetia. Israel, France, Ukraine, and other countries have also trained Georgian forces in the past.

Map of North and South Ossetia.

• The Communist Party of the Russian Federation "completely support actions of the (Russian) head of the state and the government against aggressor Mikheil Saakashvili" according to party leader Gennady Zyuganov. Zyuganov also criticized the U.S. and the European nations which have called for a cease-fire, because Zyuganov says they only "wish to protect the bloody dictator Saakashvili." Finally, the Russian government should recognize the independence of the Republics of South Ossetia and Abkhazia according to Zyuganov.
• Mikhail Gorbachev, former head of state of the Soviet Union, in an op-ed in the U.S. newspaper The Washington Post blamed Georgia for starting the conflict: "the roots of this tragedy lie in the decision of Georgia's separatist leaders in 1991 to abolish South Ossetian autonomy... What happened on the night of Aug. 7 is beyond comprehension. The Georgian military attacked the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali with multiple rocket launchers designed to devastate large areas. Russia had to respond. To accuse it of aggression against 'small, defenseless Georgia' is not just hypocritical but shows a lack of humanity."
• Sergei Lavrov said, on August 14th, that "One can forget about any talk about Georgia's territorial integrity. It is impossible to persuade South Ossetia and Abkhazia to agree with the logic that they can be forced back into the Georgian state".

The general staff in Moscow stated on the 16th,, "There is a presence of our armed forces near Gori and Senaki. We make no secret of it," "They are there to defuse an enormous arsenal of weapons and military hardware which have been discovered in the vicinity of Gori and Senaki without any guard whatsoever." it said.

South Ossetia

• On 8 August, South Ossetia called on "the governments and peoples of the world" to recognise its independence: "For South Ossetia, there is only one path of life – the acceptance of its independence by the international community. We call on all self-respecting people of the planet to not be indifferent to the fate of the Ossetian nation."
• On the 16th, Eduard Kokoity, President of the Republic of South Ossetia, stated that no Georgian peacekeepers or international observers would be allowed in South Ossetia.

Abkhazia

• Abkhaz Minister for Foreign Affairs Sergey Shamba called on the international community to prohibit Georgia from having its own armed forces. "Over the last hundred years Georgia has been an independent state for 21 years: from 1918 to 1921 and from 1990 till now. And during that time launched 7 wars," he said.

Did a stub on Civil Georgia

--Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 10:59, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

McClatchy article

An interesting article today from the McClatchy newspapers, a US newspaper chain. | Tour of Tskhinvali undercuts Russian version of fighting. I suspect that it ought to be discussed here on the Talk page before inserting anything into the contentious article based on this source. N2e (talk) 11:14, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Inaccuracies

"On August 16, Russia put this number at over 10,000 refugees." Citied article says about present number, not total. So, this formulating is not correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.42.63.113 (talk) 14:44, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Obama and McCain on the current crisis

Reading from a paper, Barak Obama issues his first statement about the current crisis. The video is a (possibly partisan) comparison between the two main contenders in the upcomming U.S. presidential election. (Youtube video Obama/McCain) --Hapsala (talk) 15:13, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Georgians Illegally Armed With German Weapons

It may be helpful: http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,3571263,00.html Vadimkaa (talk) 15:17, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

To add clarity to this, these G36's would have been illegal (in germany) if exported from germany without export license. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 16:32, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism by Igny

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2008_South_Ossetia_war&diff=prev&oldid=232701715

Definitely not a hearsay. Perhaps a source with a "wrong" date for Igny ?? Elysander (talk) 17:12, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

"a dirty little war"

If you want to know the story of this war, see this Guardian article.Bdell555 (talk) 01:28, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Really biased article. There is nothing to be gained by portraing Russians as evil barbarians, nothing. It's in fact really dangerous.

It's way more constructive to try to understand why the Russians are behaving like this.

⇨ EconomistBR ⇦ Talk 04:16, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Should it be considered for incorporation into the article? Otherwise what the point of this post? Lihaas (talk) 10:08, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

The article is called "Russia's objectives.." but starts with a story of some marauders. No mentioning on Georgian invasion into Tskhinvali, its called "..doomed military incursion..". How tragic. Then follow ramblings about Putin's yearning for Soviet years and about some graffiti on Moscow wall (I tell you, most graffities on our walls are run-of-the-mill obscenities, no need to travel that far to read them). The article is the hysterical anti-Russian propaganda masterpiece, an is as far from political analysis as I am from North Pole. It paints the whole situation upside-down. "..secessionist provinces of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, which broke away from Tbilisi during the 1992-93 civil war.." - no mentioning of the cancelled autonomy and attempted militatry crackdown by nationalistic Georgian government. Then they speak of Crimea as some "target" of Russia, what an imagination. "On Friday, the US Secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice, condemned Russia's invasion of Georgia.." ..then went on to condemn U.S. invasion in Iraq and Guantanamo prison, began laughing wildly and was taked to the nearby hospital. Oh my God. Of course such cartoonish presentations, whether painted by Russian or Western propaganda, have no place in an encyclopedia article. --CopperKettle (talk) 10:12, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Just look at this marvelous phrase: "..Like the Soviet Union's invasion of Czechoslovakia 40 years ago this week, this invasion took place in August...". Yeah, and just like the Hitler's annexation of Austria, the War in Iraq started in March. Cool analogies. Let's scan the history for cozy dating. --CopperKettle (talk) 10:18, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

The fact of the matter is the the Guardian is a reliable source by Wikipedia sources and therefore material from it may and should be included in the article. The Guardian is a left-leaning paper. The fact that you don't like is not a sufficient reason to exclude material provided by a reliable source.Bdell555 (talk) 15:33, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Even a reliable source will fail from time to time; this article is raving madness. I guess they leaned so far to the left that they completely tipped over and knocked their heads. The article reads like a Russian State TV transript, only with 180 degrees turn. --CopperKettle (talk) 15:46, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

@Bdell555

You have to agree that those views do not necessarily represent The Guardian's views. That article is an op-ed nothing more. The Time for example, has published already about 3 op-ed or "analysis" about the conflict.

@CopperKettle

Totally agree with you..."cartoonish presentations"... very well said, it is really cartoonish and 1 dimensional.

⇨ EconomistBR ⇦ Talk 17:29, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

No, I do not have to agree.

This is a Guardian op-ed. See what it says above the title? "Comment"

This is a Guardian editorial. See what it says above the title? "Comment"

Now go look at what it says above the title of this piece. "NEWS". The Guardian is accordingly putting the full weight of its credibility as a news source behind the factual claims in this piece. The Guardian was THERE. Were you? For this material to be excluded, you have to provide evidence that the Guardian, as a general news source, is not reliable, given the fact the general consensus across Wikipedia is that it IS reliable. If you are going to edit war over the inclusion of any claim of fact cited to this article, I suggest providing some more argument here first.Bdell555 (talk) 19:41, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

This article should have dealt with only facts in an objective manner, instead it used selected facts in order to support a bunch of one-sided extremely biased opinions, making it IMO an op-ed.

In the end that article wrote exactly what you wanted to read, that's why you like it so much to the point of advertising it. That's very sad.

⇨ EconomistBR ⇦ Talk 20:18, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

It's sadder that you seem to think that what happened did not happen. If it did not happen why is another British reporter saying something similar?

That's a cheap shot from you. You failed to address my points and invented the point that I disputed the veracity of the article's accounts. Really awful, if you don't something to say shut up but don't invent slanderous points.

⇨ EconomistBR ⇦ Talk 01:33, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

If you don't dispute "the veracity of the article's accounts" then what IS your point, relevant to the article? Do you dispute the veracity of this article?Bdell555 (talk) 01:51, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

or this one?Bdell555 (talk) 02:00, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

My point was that since the views/opinions expressed on that op-ed don't necessarily represent The Guardian's views, that op-ed was just as relevant as all the other op-eds. There is nothing special about it. For example, The Times published 3 op-eds, 2 Anti-Russia and 1 Pro-Russia.

⇨ EconomistBR ⇦ Talk 04:55, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

It is NOT an op-ed! That is a bold faced lie on your part to claim it is an op-ed when when I've presented undeniable evidence in front of your face proving the contrary. The Guardian classifies it as news so stop saying it does not without coming up with evidence. You've entirely rebutted any good faith assumption about your intentions here. This is not a personal insult but simply a noting of the contrast of the facts before you and what you are claiming.Bdell555 (talk) 13:52, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Although I continue to believe the Guardian is a reliable source, inclusion of material from HRW may be sufficient. I'll start a new section below to that effect.Bdell555 (talk) 14:09, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Back at square one!!! IMO it is an op-ed because this article didn't deal "with only facts in an objective manner, instead it used selected facts in order to support a bunch of one-sided extremely biased opinions, making it IMO an op-ed."

My IMO is sound, and here is your evidence:"The militia gangs were part of a murderous wave unleashed by Russia last week on Georgian civilians." And this: "These theatrical Russian advances have a clear purpose: to menace Saakashvili and to underscore the irrelevance of European and US diplomacy." That's not News, that's a Russia-bashing op-ed. You advertized the article because you liked what you read. Be a man and admit it.

⇨ EconomistBR ⇦ Talk 14:56, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Those are facts. Not every fact you don't like is an op-ed.Bdell555 (talk) 18:22, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Key words: gangs, murderous, unleashed on civilians, theatrical, menace => Extreme partisan POV abound => analysis worthless due to heavy bias; facts need to be fished out very carefully. For example, from the two sentences cited by EconomistBR above, the following fact can be gleaned: "Armed South Ossetian irregulars have been sighted in Georgian-inhabited areas." - the same can be gained from other, far more neutral sources that might also provide more information without the need for sanitation. --Illythr (talk) 18:48, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

What exactly do you want to add from this article? BTW, see that I've translated at the talkpage of the Timeline. --CopperKettle (talk) 19:45, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

First, we have to establish a consensus on whether the article is a reliable source or not. Fact of the matter, there are more and more stories coming about about brutality behind Russian lines. I suspect this material is going to provoke an edit war which I'm trying to avoid by trying to get this discussed in advance as much as possible.Bdell555 (talk) 02:00, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Tha't the point - it can probably be considered reliable regarding the facts the author operates with, but his analysis is hopelessly biased to be of any use. So, whoever's brave enough to go elbow-deep into it, can propose facts from it for inclusion, although same facts taken from neutral sources will be strongly preferred. --Illythr (talk) 18:48, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Something I don't understand here. In the humanitarian section, the reference to Georgia being the beligerent is clearly stated in the destruction of Tskhinvali. Itself biased in that it does not reflect the heavy aerial bombing and artillery the Rusian forces perpetrated on Tskhinvali to dislodge the Goergians. Yet, again in the humanitiarian section, looting, burning of villages, raping and murder are all attributed to "militia" when many media sources, including the above mentioned, CLEARLY attribute this activity to Ossetians, Chechens and Cossacks while behind a curtain of protection from the Russian military. Yet no one seems to want to assign the horror of these atrocities to the proper perpetrators, just "militias". IMO this needs to be corrected immeadiatly.70.193.42.221 (talk) 03:22, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

It is suggested this section be deleted as it is not constructive, since it discusses an article. The policy is to be bold and add what info you have found, within the wikipedia policies. Each bit of information added can then be challenged within it's own merit. Considering there are conflicting reports between various media sources, a point-by-point cross examination seems to be the only way to progress. Neutrality should be observed, while reported facts are filtered from reported perspectives. eg. Looters caught on camera in Gori are dressed as Russians, some media sources report them as Russians, while others sources say they are disguised as Russians. This represents the broader truth, while offering a balanced perspective with full verifiability. If one or the other was just stated as true, it would be an incomplete description. --Tananka (talk) 16:18, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

KOSOVO Information

The information about Kosovo and it's relation to this conflict is excessive. For example, it is the largest subheading in the background section, but gives very little information about South Ossetia; although, it gives extremely repetitive information (mostly pulling from quotations) about why Russia cites the situation as a precedent for sending their own troops into the breakaway provinces of Georgia and Georgia proper. Some of these quotations are not cited well and/or are wholly unnecessary to this article: "An UN Security Council diplomat said "Strategically, the Russians have been sending signals that they really wanted to flex their muscles, and they’re upset about Kosovo."" Who is this Security Council diplomat? What country are they from? Does this information have anything to do with Georgia? And if everything is legitimate then (grammar) some should change "An" to an "A". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Menrunningpast (talk • contribs) 17:47, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Very much agreed, the text does not belong to this article. What we need is a section detailing the US reaction the US is very much a party to this as a military ally of Georgia fighting with their troops side by side in Iraq for example. Hobartimus (talk) 18:18, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks!Menrunningpast (talk) 21:40, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Kosovo text needs to go, as does the reference to NATO. Background for the conflict should not also include speculation as to why the conflict began. IMO this should be a seperate section for now as the conflict is ongoing. History can be linked to South Ossetia and Georgia Wiki, as it is. Backround should involve the key players: Georgia, Russia and South Ossetia and historically documented events as well as those in 2008 which lead up to the war. Additionally there are no background/historical citations of appeals to international organizations to become involved in the conflict or this being blocked. I find this odd as I know Georgia has made appeals for international peacekeepers in the conflict areas.70.193.42.221 (talk) 03:42, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

If Kosovo text is here, why not adding Manchukuo as a comparison as well?--Kittyhawk2 (talk) 15:25, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

"Background to war" - Sunday Times Article

I offer for the possible improvement of this article the following from the Sunday Times (in the UK) which offers some interesting background regarding the "behind the scenes" issues leading up to the conflict in South Ossetia - http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4545980.ece

doktorb _words^deeds 19:05, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I've also translated a piece telling of the events in the runup to the Georgian invasion. Talk:Timeline_of_the_2008_South_Ossetia_war#Georgian_police_car_bombed_on_31th_July_.28Novaya_Gazeta.29 Here. --CopperKettle (talk) 19:32, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Very well balanced account of what happened, the part talking about the diplomatic efforts to stop the conflict from starting are unique, nowhere I've seen so much detail. IMO we should add it to the article. The article is quite unbiased.

Thanks doktorb for posting the link.

⇨ EconomistBR ⇦ Talk 20:59, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I quote from the doctor's article:

The US State Department’s internal timeline of the crisis pinpoints the explosion on August 1 of two roadside bombs, believed to have been planted by South Ossetian separatists sympathetic to Russia, as a decisive moment. Five Georgian policemen were injured, one severely.

Novaya Gazeta tells of this incident thus:

..This war was brewing up for a long time, but one incident served as a formal pretext. On the 31th of July, a Georgian police car was blasted using a self-made remotely controlled device on a detour road near the Eredvi village to the east of Tskhinvali. Russian peacekeepers had time to carry out an investigation and found that two 122 mm Russian-type howitzer shells were used. The policemen's Toyota was totally wrecked, and five Geogrians were injured. Just at the same spot, but on the 4th of July that year, similar explosive was used to destroy a car that carried the head of the provisional pro-Georgian administration of South Ossetia Dmitry Sanakoyev. After the blast the car was fired upon, but Sanakoyev came out unscathed though his bodyguards were wounded. Sanakoyev had been a minister of defence in the separatist government of South Ossetia, but later broke up from Kokoyti and passed to the Georgian side with a group of his Ossetian militant followers. Kokoyti and his supporters consider Sanakoev a traitor. On the 1st of August the Georgians striked back and fired at Ossetian positions, for the first time using long-range big-caliber rifles. The separatists didn't expect such an attack and suffered noticeable losses, replying with a mortar fire directed at Georgian villages, and this fact was noted by the Russian peacekeepers. In the following days the Ossetians started an active provocation campaign, apparently aiming to bring on the full-blown conflict and draw in the Russians, and in this they funally succeded. ..

Best regards, --CopperKettle (talk) 21:11, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

So it's one bomb made of two artillery shells, as Russian peacekeepers investigation tells. --CopperKettle (talk) 21:18, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

The article tells of the event of 31st-1st as Russian provocation, and this could just be, we dont know. But further on it tells that Rice just barely stopped Saakashvili from launching an offensive agains Abkhazia earlier this year. So the war should've happened without any provocation; and I guess Abkhazians would've defended even without Russian help. --CopperKettle (talk) 21:58, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

On the whole, the most balances article as of yet, with a little surprizing implication that Russia would've rolled the tanks in without an offensive from Georgia; this I doubt. But at least it agrees that offensive caused much troubles to civilians and such. --CopperKettle (talk) 22:08, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I quote:

Whatever the final death toll, few dispute that the city suffered destruction and that civilians were hardest hit. Nor is there any doubting Albina Shanazarov’s tragic fate. A 13-year-old girl, she sought to flee the city with her mother and three sisters...

..etc. --CopperKettle (talk)

Only stupid people take everything published in British, or for that matter any country's newspapers, as true. I remember, in the run up to the 2003 invasion of Iraq, MI6 had Czech Intelligence place a fabricated article about Iraqi WMD in their newspapers, so that it could be picked up by British newspapers and republished, so as to add materially to the fiction. And that is just one example of how we are daily fed fiction from a rich tapestry of lies. 192.190.108.28 (talk) 01:44, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Please check out this google news search result: [9]

Also the incidents of August 1st are referred to in a BBC article: "The separatist government in the breakaway province of South Ossetia has accused Georgia of killing six people and injuring seven in an attack. It quoted hospital sources as saying five civilians and a peacekeeper from the Russian province of North Ossetia were killed...

Georgia's interior ministry said that Georgian checkpoints had come under fire first and troops had responded. Ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili also reported that South Ossetian forces had blown up a Georgian police car with a mine earlier on Friday, injuring six policemen. " [10] --Tananka (talk) 01:30, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Pictures deleted

May I ask why exactly pictures that I uploaded under Creative Commons Attribution by Arkady Babchenko were deleted? I uploaded a bunch of them, and asked the author (Arkady Babchenko) personally if it was alright to use them. Direct quote: "Огромная просьба, когда будете выкладывать их где-либо в сети, упоминайте не только авторство Аркадия Бабченко, но и то, что они принадлежат Альманаху «Искусство Войны» (http://www.navoine.ru)." Translation: "if you post these pictures somewhere else, please note the author, Arkady Babchenko, and navoine.ru".

http://www.navoine.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?p=610#610

--Mrcatzilla (talk) 19:06, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

He said they belong to the almanach "Art of war"? Then they are probably not free, and that may be the reason for the deletion. Optimally the images should be totally free for use. Also if you find such images, try to put them directly in WikiCommons. Best regards, --CopperKettle (talk) 19:40, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

There were multiple problems during the last few days about people uploading war images under false license declarations, so admins are rather quick on the delete button now. Perhaps an admin may have been a bit too quick in some instance or other. Can I get this clarified (as I don't read Russian) - this was a webforum where the guy who posted the images said he was himself the photographer, he'd actually been down there with the army and taken photographs and owned the copyright, yes? And that "Almanach", what kind of a publication is that? - Also, did he explicitly allow re-use in other venues besides Wikipedia, including commercial ones? Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:51, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Casulties

The georgian armed forces suffered losses about 133 servicemen. That was confirmed on Sunday 17th august 2008 by georgian soldiers during an interview at a military base —Preceding unsigned comment added by ComanL (talk • contribs) 20:39, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

You need to give us a source before we can put that in. Was it on Georgian TV? I'd probably be prepared to believe you seeing as we may not be footnoting the infobox anyways.Bdell555 (talk) 01:19, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Quoting Governments

I have edited rather drastically. My view continues to be that neither the Russian nor the Georgian (nor the American) Government is a reliable source, and we can leave out claims which are solely reprinting their various spokebeings. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:30, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

When we do want to say something about American actions, this report that the Americans warned Saakashbili to be cautious, but did not tell him they would not support him, and that "they believed they had an understanding with Russia that any response to Georgian military action would be limited to South Ossetia," should be included. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:31, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Times online also speaks extensively on US actions to try to contain Saakashvili's vigor. (from a link by doctorb higher up) --CopperKettle (talk) 22:40, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

On August 16, The general staff of Moscow confirmed that Russia had occupied Poti, as well as military bases in Gori and Senaki. It stated that they were there to "defuse an enormous arsenal of weapons and military hardware which have been discovered in the vicinity of Gori and Senaki without any guard whatsoever."

This is unacceptable. The Russian Government cannot confirm anything; nor can the Georgian Government: they are the interested parties, and we are not here to reprint their public statements.. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:43, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Can you please cite a wikipedia policy for this? I find it rather ridiculous that you don't think the Russian government is reliable enough to confirm that they've occupied a town and destroyed military equipment, which falls in line with what the BBC and Guardian are saying. Your view may be that it's not, but my view is that statements are what they are, reliable or not, they shouldn't be censored, and I've never heard of a wikipedia policy backing that view up. LokiiT (talk) 22:55, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the governments are apt to misinform, especially in a war, but shouln't there be some "common sense" rule: if the presumed fact told by a government is apparent, just add it? --CopperKettle (talk) 22:59, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

If the presumed fact asserted by a government is obvious, and it is (as here) of world-wide interest, someone else will say it, as something they have observed. Half of this is an assertion we already have: that the Russians are in Gori and Senaki; the second asserts the purpose of the Russians remaining, which is crystal-ballery. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:07, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

We don't make up rules, we have to adhere to wikipedia policies and guidelines. Wikipedia requires verifiability, not truth. See WP:V. As long as we mention that it's the government making the statements, there's nothing wrong. LokiiT (talk) 23:02, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

We don't quote interested parties when (as here) we can find disinterested ones; that's part of verifiability. Doing so risks deceiving the reader by inducing him to overlook the source of the information. We don't put in long quotations of doubtful factualty; that violates WP:UNDUE. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:10, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Please cite a source that says official government statements can't be quoted, assuming the source is reliable. By your logic, we can't add that Medvedev said the pullout will start on Monday because he's an "official source". WP:UNDUE only applies if the addition is bigger than it should be, that doesn't mean you can remove the quote in its entirety. There's nothing wrong with saying that Moscow officials confirmed what the BBC and Guardian reported, nothing at all. LokiiT (talk) 23:13, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Show any reason for a neutral reader to believe that a government spokesman is reliable, Russian, Georgian, Ossetian, or American. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:15, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

In brief, don't cite people who "are apt to misinform". There is no good reason for doing so, unless better citations are not available; and even then there's a sound case for silence. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:14, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

There is good reason for doing so. It's called WP:NPOV, one of the most important aspects of editing on wikipedia. It's not up to you to decide who's "apt to misinform", that's wp:OR. The only important aspect to quoting governments is making sure such statements are reliably sourced, in this case they are. All I can really gather from your argument is that you don't like something therefore it shouldn't be in the article, but wikipedia doesn't work like that.LokiiT (talk) 23:16, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Repeating the statements of either side in the interest of NPOV is preposterous. I will give it some time to see what course of dispute resolution is most suitable. Hopefully, consensus will have removed this channelling of propaganda - and, I repeat, I object equally to Georgian propaganda - before I return to this. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:24, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

"Repeating the statements of either side in the interest of NPOV is preposterous" ...?????? LokiiT (talk) 23:27, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Perhapt it would be clearer to say that repeating the Russian [or the Georgian] case for themselves, including their crystal-ballery, is preposterous. We could, in theory, neutralize it partly by citing the numerous sources who don't believe them; but that would merely add a cloud of words to what we should have in the timeline: the events which have observably happened on the ground according to the most disinterested sources.

That is what we did have, before Lokiit changed it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:33, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

The most directly relevant policy statement can be found at WP:PRIMARY. The publications of an interested party to a dispute or issue are generally regarded as primary sources. As such, they are not to be used except as descriptions of the various positions. If Russia says that the war began with A and Georgia says it began with B, then NPOV allows and encourages the article to recount those positions as positions. It does not allow the article to leave matters there if there are any secondary sources that are reasonably independent of the parties and that can provide context. Robert A.West (Talk) 02:34, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

New Cold War

Additional input, improvement, involvement, etc. at New Cold War would be helpful, and this seems like an obvious place to find interested parties...   user:j    (aka justen)   22:29, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

New Cold War?!! That article shouldn't even exist, that's a neologism trumped up by TV pundits. There is no such thing a New Cold War. Russia doesn't have an sphere of influence or the money to embark on a multi year arms race.

A Russia-China military alliance comparable to NATO? That article is crazy.

I am AfDing that article.

⇨ EconomistBR ⇦ Talk 01:38, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

It's a term with significant verifiable and reliable sources, none of which are television pundits. Your opinion that there is "no such thing as a New Cold War" is your opinion, but it shouldn't be influencing your decisions here at Wikipedia. As for your last point, the article doesn't discuss the comparability of NATO versus a Russia-China military alliance. Not sure which article you were reading...   user:j    (aka justen)   02:13, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

This map "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Current_Major_Military_Alliances.png" is outrageous, it puts China and Russia in an alliance comparable to NATO. That's a mistake.

We should let this New Cold War starts before we have an article about it.

⇨ EconomistBR ⇦ Talk 02:19, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

The map doesn't speak to comparability. You're superimposing your own point of view on the map.   user:j    (aka justen)   02:33, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

It's wrong anyways...--Jakezing (talk) 00:29, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Internal linking of dates in article and general dating

The article has many date references, some in the format of ex. August 17 or August 17, 2008, but there is no consistency in the format. Also, dates are being internally linked i.e August 17,2008 and is it really necessary to do so? There are so many blue links that I feel the reader gets so mind boggled that he/she won't notice links that might enhance their understanding of the crisis.

So can we:

1. Agree on a consistent date format? [Month, Date] or [Month, Date, Year]
2. Remove internally linked dates to reduce "blue link" blindness?

I don't mind going through the article and reformating to whatever we can come to an agreement on. «Javier»|Talk 00:16, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Introduction in poor English

I understand there is a lot of editing on this page and it is difficult to keep track of all the edits, but the introduction is really hard to read for a native speaker without wincing, it seems to have been edited by many of the locals with their limited knowledge of English grammar. Does a native speaker have the time to revise at least the first 4 paragraphs? --Lgriot (talk) 06:43, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Not only the introduction; and the problem is not only non-native speakers. A group of editors might be able to meet separately to come up with a well written introduction, but I’m not sure how this would be done. Regardless, it seems there is way too much hostility over content to try to improve the writing -- charges of propaganda would follow. Right now it looks like this article will be written by those with the most time and stamina. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adjpro (talk • contribs) 15:41, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Polls

I have removed a line which said there were two polls for independence in 1992, which showed the will of the people wanted indepence. The article which is quoted for this is *before* the second poll (and so the sentence is not backed up by the article) and the first poll was not internationally recongized - not mentioning this is misleading. (Speaking purely personally, a 98% vote for anything smacks of vote rigging.) Toby Douglass (talk) 07:39, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

You should undo it. The information concerning the polls is essential part! Taamu (talk) 07:52, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

It needs modification before undoing. What the statement says and what the referred article say *are not the same*. Toby Douglass (talk) 15:40, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

The high figure might speak of rigging, might point to the fact that pro-unity folks were ousted and forced to flee, might speak of a nationalist surge in the days just after the conflict; with these caveats somehow mentioned, with references, it could be included at least in the "timeline", I think. --CopperKettle (talk) 11:35, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, I removed the line on the basis that the sentence and the referred article didn't match, as opposed to my views about the poll percentage. Toby Douglass (talk) 15:40, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Cossacks in infobox

Can we include the different Russian cossacks in the infobox? since it is included in the War in Abkhazia (1992–1993) article.

Cossack units should be recognized if sourced properly. In the interest of objectivity, please also include references to any military actions of these units and any attrocities committed by Cossack units.http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4543756.ece70.193.63.107 (talk) 04:39, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Spartan's stupid copypasta

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2008_South_Ossetia_war&diff=232637655&oldid=232610559

A huge block of copypasted text.

Someone PLZ lock it from the new and unexperienced editors. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 09:04, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

The page is already semi-protected, which means that people who don't have an account on Wikipedia can't edit this article, and it also means accounts which are less than four days old can't either. If you think the level of protection should be greater, I believe that the next level above semi-protection is complete protection, which means that no-one can edit the article, and I do not believe that a move like that will be endorsed by an admin atm. I might be wrong in thinking that is the next level, though. JEdgarFreeman (talk) 12:27, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Strange editings - text disapperas.

Excuse me please, but recently I started a new section here, advising that we need to add info about that Georgia attacked it all first, about that it attacks Russian peacemakers base and that we need to add "USA interest" section to Russia interest, Osethias interest and so on. Now I can't see any tracks of these my text. It is not even in a "history". How's that?--Oleg Str (talk) 09:39, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Check the Archive. Taamu (talk) 10:26, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

EXTERNAL LINKS

WRITE (!!!!)

• TITLES OF THE ARTICLES

• SOURCES OF THE ARTICLES

• DATES OF THE ARTICLES

What the hell? Som guys put links alone, destroying references section. Others write things like "NY Times" (instead of The New York Times). As I said above, admins should protect this page from new users. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 09:52, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

If the link is there, then title and date can be added. The page is already protected and I feel further locking would surely hinder dynamic improvement.--Tananka (talk) 02:03, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

(Trivia) Statements by involved parties

Use aany of this elsewhere if you want and if notable.

Remove an item from this list if used. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 10:42, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Georgia

File:Tbilisi-2008-08-12.jpg

Tbilisi demonstration against Russian intervention on August 12, 2008.

• Georgian president Mikheil Saakashvili claimed the Russians conducted a "well-planned invasion"
• "A sniper war is ongoing against residents of the villages in the South Ossetian conflict zone and as I speak now intensive fire is ongoing from artillery, from tanks, from self-propelled artillery systems – which have been brought in the conflict zone illegally – and from other types of weaponry, including mortars and grenade launchers", Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili said in a live televised address made at 19:10 7 August local time.
• "This is about annihilation of a democracy on their borders," Georgian President Saakashvili told the BBC. "We on our own cannot fight with Russia. We want immediate cease-fire, immediate cessation of hostilities, separation of Russia and Georgia and international mediation."
• Georgia's Security Council secretary, Alexander Lomaia, said Saakashvili's proposal means that the Georgian troops will withdraw from Tskhinvali, the provincial capital of South Ossetia, and stop responding to Russian shelling.
• Russia has "started a full-scale military invasion" of Georgia, the country's UN Ambassador Irakli Alasania said in New York.
• "If this is not war, then I wonder what is," Georgia's ambassador to the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, Victor Dolidze, told a crisis meeting of the OSCE's permanent council in Vienna.
• Georgian President Saakashvili stated, "What Russia is doing in Georgia is open, unhidden aggression and a challenge to the whole world. If the whole world does not stop Russia today, then Russian tanks will be able to reach any other European capital." He argued Russia was attacking Georgia because "[Georgia] want[s] to be free and we want to be a multi-ethnic democracy."
• In an interview with CNN, Saakashvili said that Georgia and Russia were practically at war. "We have Russian tanks moving in," he said. "We have continuous Russian bombardment since yesterday ... specifically targeting the civilian population. Russia is fighting a war with us in our own territory." He told the BBC: "Our troops are attacked by thousands of troops coming in from Russia."

• On August 12, Georgia instituted proceedings before the International Court of Justice against the Russian Federation for "its actions on and around the territory of Georgia" from 1991 to 2008, in breach of the 1965 International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (ICERD).

• On August 13, Georgia's Ministry of Defence reported on its web site that 4,600 Russian passports had been found in a Russian armed forces vehicle. These passports were said to have exhibited numerous irregularities — such as having consecutive serial numbers despite bearing different years of issuance — and none of them had been signed by their owners. Georgia suggested that this was evidence of a plan to increase the number of Russian "citizens" in South Ossetia in order to bolster Russia's claim that it was acting to protect its citizens.

• Also on August 13, Ex-President of Georgia Eduard Shevardnadze stated that "…Georgia should not have advanced into Tskhinvali in so unprepared a way. That was a grave error".

• Brigadier Gen. Col. Mamuka Kurashvili, in charge for overseeing peacekeeping operations for the Georgian Ministry of Defense, said Georgia intended to "restore constitutional order in the entire region."

Russia

• Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov in a BBC interview: "Peace is required and that is what we are going to achieve but we would not go beyond this."
• Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin said, "The actions of the Georgian powers in South Ossetia are, of course, a crime — first of all against their own people," and alleged Georgia was committing "complete genocide." Putin opined that the territorial integrity of Georgia has suffered a fatal blow. He later stated "the Georgian side was preparing aggression... Nobody was listening. And this is the result. We have finally come to it. However, Russia will of course carry out its peacekeeping mission to its logical end."
• Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said he was ordering the military prosecutor to document crimes against civilians (by Georgia) in South Ossetia. He said "The actions of the Georgian side led to deaths - among them are Russian peacekeepers. The situation reached the point that Georgian peacekeepers have been shooting at Russian peacekeepers. Now women, children and old people are dying in South Ossetia - most of them are citizens of the Russian Federation. According to the constitution, I, as the President of the Russian Federation, must protect lives and the dignity of Russian citizens wherever they are. Those responsible for the deaths of our citizens will be punished. He said it aims to force Georgia to accept peace and restore the status quo, and it is acting within its peacekeeping mission in South Ossetia, and in line with the mandate issued by the international community.
• After the GMT 4:00 8 August UN Security Council meeting, Boris Malakhov, spokesman of the Russian Foreign Ministry, said he hoped it was still possible to prevent "mass bloodshed," adding, "It now became clear why the Georgian side was refraining under various pretexts from signing a legally binding document on non-use of force"
• Russian envoy Yuri Popov said Georgia's military operation showed it could not be trusted and NATO should reconsider its plans to grant membership to Georgia. Popov said, "Georgia's step is absolutely incomprehensible and shows the Georgian leadership has zero credit of trust." He called Georgia's behavior treacherous.
• In a letter to all NATO members, Ambassador of Russia to NATO Dmitry Rogozin stated Georgia had "got a permit to start a military operation" after the 2008 NATO summit in Bucharest and warned against continued support of Georgia and its president.
• In North Ossetia's Vladikavkaz there were several demonstrations rallied by local Ossetians, with protesters shouting "Russia, save us!" and demanding the withdrawal of Georgian forces from South Ossetia.
• Chairman of Russia's State Duma Security Committee, Vladimir Vasiliyev, stated, "Georgia could have used the years of Saakashvili's presidency in different ways - to build up the economy, to develop the infrastructure, to solve social issues both in South Ossetia, Abkhazia and the whole state. Instead, the Georgian leadership with president Saakashvili undertook consistent steps to increase its military budget from US$30 million to $1 billion - Georgia was preparing for a military action."
• On 10 August 2008 Russian human rights commissioner (ombudsman) Vladimir Lukin called for creating an International Tribunal on South Ossetia. "That man who ordered a night attack on Tskhinvali is the main responsible person," he said.
• Vice Chairman of Russian parliament Vladimir Zhirinovsky in his speech on Echo Moskvy radio suggested bombing Tbilisi and bringing Saakashvili to trial, overthrowing his "fascist regime," as well as breaking all diplomatic and economic links with Georgia.
• [other reactions from Russian President Dmitry Medvedev, Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov and deputy Foreign Minister incorporated into initial paragraphs]
• Russia also laid much of the responsibility for ending the fighting on the United States, which has trained Georgian troops. Moscow ignored the Bush administration’s statement about “significant long-term impact on the U.S.-Russia relations”. Washington has not condemned Georgia’s attack on South Ossetia. Israel, France, Ukraine, and other countries have also trained Georgian forces in the past.

Map of North and South Ossetia.

• The Communist Party of the Russian Federation "completely support actions of the (Russian) head of the state and the government against aggressor Mikheil Saakashvili" according to party leader Gennady Zyuganov. Zyuganov also criticized the U.S. and the European nations which have called for a cease-fire, because Zyuganov says they only "wish to protect the bloody dictator Saakashvili." Finally, the Russian government should recognize the independence of the Republics of South Ossetia and Abkhazia according to Zyuganov.
• Mikhail Gorbachev, former head of state of the Soviet Union, in an op-ed in the U.S. newspaper The Washington Post blamed Georgia for starting the conflict: "the roots of this tragedy lie in the decision of Georgia's separatist leaders in 1991 to abolish South Ossetian autonomy... What happened on the night of Aug. 7 is beyond comprehension. The Georgian military attacked the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali with multiple rocket launchers designed to devastate large areas. Russia had to respond. To accuse it of aggression against 'small, defenseless Georgia' is not just hypocritical but shows a lack of humanity."
• Sergei Lavrov said, on August 14th, that "One can forget about any talk about Georgia's territorial integrity. It is impossible to persuade South Ossetia and Abkhazia to agree with the logic that they can be forced back into the Georgian state".

The general staff in Moscow stated on the 16th,, "There is a presence of our armed forces near Gori and Senaki. We make no secret of it," "They are there to defuse an enormous arsenal of weapons and military hardware which have been discovered in the vicinity of Gori and Senaki without any guard whatsoever." it said.

South Ossetia

• On 8 August, South Ossetia called on "the governments and peoples of the world" to recognise its independence: "For South Ossetia, there is only one path of life – the acceptance of its independence by the international community. We call on all self-respecting people of the planet to not be indifferent to the fate of the Ossetian nation."
• On the 16th, Eduard Kokoity, President of the Republic of South Ossetia, stated that no Georgian peacekeepers or international observers would be allowed in South Ossetia.

Abkhazia

• Abkhaz Minister for Foreign Affairs Sergey Shamba called on the international community to prohibit Georgia from having its own armed forces. "Over the last hundred years Georgia has been an independent state for 21 years: from 1918 to 1921 and from 1990 till now. And during that time launched 7 wars," he said.

Did a stub on Civil Georgia

--Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 10:59, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

McClatchy article

An interesting article today from the McClatchy newspapers, a US newspaper chain. | Tour of Tskhinvali undercuts Russian version of fighting. I suspect that it ought to be discussed here on the Talk page before inserting anything into the contentious article based on this source. N2e (talk) 11:14, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Human Rights Watch update

Russia Should Curb Militias and Allow in Humanitarian Aid

Investigate Violations and Protect Civilians

photos for those interested. Bdell555 (talk) 14:11, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Done. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 19:43, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Inaccuracies

"On August 16, Russia put this number at over 10,000 refugees." Citied article says about present number, not total. So, this formulating is not correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.42.63.113 (talk) 14:44, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Compare and contrast: Obama and McCain on the current crisis

Reading from a paper, Barak Obama issues his first statement about the current crisis. The video is a (possibly partisan) comparison between the two main contenders in the upcomming U.S. presidential election. (Youtube video Obama/McCain) --Hapsala (talk) 15:13, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

No wonder the Russians shun McCain and dream of a Obama victory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.21.232.237 (talk) 16:00, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Georgians Illegally Armed With German Weapons

It may be helpful: http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,3571263,00.html Vadimkaa (talk) 15:17, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

To add clarity to this, these G36's would have been illegal (in germany) if exported from germany without export license. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 16:32, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism by Igny

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2008_South_Ossetia_war&diff=prev&oldid=232701715

Definitely not a hearsay. Perhaps a source with a "wrong" date for Igny ?? Elysander (talk) 17:12, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Military casualties

Will someone who is a registared editor change the data on military losses.

The Georgian military losses should be changed to 160 killed and 300 missing because here is a reference [[11]] that says the Georgian Ministry of Defence claiming to have confirmed 160 soldiers killed and 300 missing.

Updated. It's also a pretty good summary. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 19:33, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Someone ought to remove the aircraft losses from the infobox or otherwise mention the destruction of Georgia's entire airforce. If you want to talk about that, move it down into the article or remove it altogether. --71.112.145.102 (talk) 20:03, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Article rename

Originally, when the conflict was wholly or largely confined to South Ossetia, my sense was that the media generally referred to it as the South Ossetia war or the South Ossetia conflict. Now that much of the action and occupation has taken place inside undisputed Georgian territory, as well as in Abkhazia and even in Georgian territorial waters, the media has switched to refering to it as the Georgian conflict or the Russian-Georgian conflict. I propose that in the interests of accuracy, we follow suit. (Incidentially, it might be worth considering whether there should be a separate article just on the initial fighting in South Ossetia alone. However, this is a separate question and this article certainly does not have that limited scope). On the renaming question, I favour the 2008 Russian-Georgian conflict but could support something similar. Greenshed (talk) 19:27, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

"Russo-Georgian war" --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 19:32, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Please see the link on this subject at the top of the talk page. Until English usage settles on some one name for this, there is no hurry. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:34, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the archive link. Now to the central question and, respectfully, I must disagree that there is no hurry. Given that the nature of the conflict has changed, keeping the name as the South Ossetia war supports the point of view that the whole conflict is about South Ossetia. It may well be that English usage never settles on one name and so the neutral thing to do is to pick the most commonly occuring name (or possibly some other form of average name) used by reputable, third party English-language sources. Greenshed (talk) 19:48, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Georgia War. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 20:16, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Just a tad ambiguous; to say nothing of local history, see William Tecumseh Sherman. If we were discussing an established usage, that would be different. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:38, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

IMHO, it is important that the article contains the disagreement between both sides on defining the situation. State of War(Georgia) vs Peace-Making(Russia). This should idealy be mentioned in the introductory paragraph, and expanded.--Tananka (talk) 23:31, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Calling it the "South Ossetia War" in no way asserts that South Ossetia was the only issue. Was the War of Jenkins Ear totally about a ship captain's ear? Was the War of the Spanish Succession without any other issue? Or the War of the Austrian Succession? I am interested to see the books -- modern publishing being what it is, we shouldn't have to wait long -- and what they call it. At the moment, I'm just hoping we don't end up being obliged to call it the First Russo-Georgian War. Robert A.West (Talk) 04:08, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

“South Ossetia Incident” --Namenlos Ein (talk) 08:14, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

"Facepalm". --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 09:53, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Photo for using

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ryzhenkova_Solidarnost_1.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ryzhenkova_Solidarnost_2.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ryzhenkova_Solidarnost_3.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ryzhenkova_Solidarnost_4.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ryzhenkova_Solidarnost_5.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ryzhenkova_Solidarnost_6.jpg GNU license. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ru magister (talk • contribs) 19:42, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

"Used them in Battle of Tskhinvali. Btw, the story of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ryzhenkova_Solidarnost_2.jpg is BS - it's not WWII and the modern tanks can't burned with petrol bombs (the old tanks would be if hit near the engine), can be only set on fire which will destroy the paint on them. Ossetians not only had plenty of RPGs, they had also many tanks on their own. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 20:13, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I think, this history not quite real, but shows the attitude of civilians. Магистер (talk) 20:49, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Ossetians didn't had "many" tanks (officially 15, afaik all T-55s), and even those weren't combat-ready, they were stored by peacekeepers according to previous agreements 195.218.210.137 (talk) 00:35, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

When we still had a table for the men and equpiment, we used Russian sources for 78 tanks or so (with Georgian put at over 200, of which of course only part was used). Of course the table was deleted because not reliable. Anyway, Ossetians prepared for this day (night) - evacuated children, brought volunteers, attacked Georgians repeatedly to provoke them, obviously they would also prepare their tanks and other armoured vehicles too (like the Russian tanks were ready on the other side of the border, and actually just trained the invasion in the Kavkaz-2008 exercise). Georgians managed to sweep them away in few hours only because they had night-vision equipment - and the Russians won only because of their aircraft and the Georgian lack of any real AA defenses there (the first Russian counterattack was ambushed and soundly defeated, with the Russian commanding general wounded and few vehicles returning). --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 08:28, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Performance of Georgian Military

Interesting Article about the Georgian Military's performance

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080818/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_military_tested;_ylt=AqaAlsgpyVuoM.2BOLfGTxis0NUE

So basically, to quote one of the soldiers, the Georgians got "torn up real bad." Of course, that much is obvious to anyone who has been following this conflict. Still an interesting find, and I enjoyed reading it. Thanks.--71.112.145.102 (talk) 02:57, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

New Georgian death toll (unofficial)

4,000 killed - mostly civilians and mostly in villages in SO or near Gori. (in Polish) http://tygodnik.onet.pl/31,0,13603,wojna_po_wojnie,artykul.html

Supposedly kept in secret to not upset the public. Gvt said "no comment". --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 20:20, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Google translate: According to this source, a majority of the victims were civilians, but not with the Gori region - city, which has been bombarded several times, and said that most - but with a Georgian village on the border, especially those located in the South Ossetia. - The idea that Russian "propaganda" may have underestimated the loss of human life in South Ossetia is not only surprising, but terrifying. Though I do wonder how Georgian authorities would be able to get an accurate casualty count from a region in which they have absolutely no access to.LokiiT (talk) 09:48, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I guess it's based on the refugee stories and number of the people unaccounted for and reported by their families as such. I also guess that many will turn out alive (like stranded behind frontline with no cell phones working, lost in Georgia, lost in the total chaos of refugee centers, or in Russian captivity - there are no reports of Ossetians going Srebrenica 95). Russian own estimate (very wild and probably pulled out of ass) of more than 2,000 is now up to 700 and probably much lower really. Which is a good thing, right? --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 11:44, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

UNHCR: 158,000 refugees now

While Russia says only over 10,000 Ossetian (and there are only about 55,000 South Ossetians total).

Russia trains its missiles on Tbilisi, AFP, August 19, 2008 --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 22:13, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Obviously, 148,000 - from Gori. ;) Магистер (talk) 22:30, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Population: 150,000 (1 city, 143 villages). Many also from and near Abkhazia. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 22:51, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Page view analysis

Following that request, I am doing some special analyses, so you might be interested in those page hit analyses as well... --- Best regards, Melancholie (talk) 23:54, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! Very interesting data. --Hapsala (talk) 01:00, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

please dont misquote to project a biased view

allow words pointing to the pros and cons..removing the failures gives undue importance to a unworthy inference..

read the lines properly..please stop vandalising the article and my neutral edits

the Guardian reference (ref number 22) says:

Anna Neistat of Human Rights Watch (HRW), who is leading a team investigating the humanitarian damage in South Ossetia, told the Guardian that Russian estimates of 2,000 dead in the conflict were "suspicious".

"The figure of 2,000 people killed is very doubtful," she said. "Our findings so far do not in any way confirm the Russian statistics. On the contrary, they suggest the numbers are exaggerated."

Neistat said that HRW investigators had, today and yesterday, recorded cases of Ossetian fighters burning and looting Georgian villages north of the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali.

"The torching of houses in these villages is in some ways a result of the massive Russia propaganda machine which constantly repeats claims of genocide and exaggerates the scale of casualties," she said. "That is then used to justify retribution."

Neistat said that doctors at Tskhinvali hospital had provided figures that 273 wounded people had been treated there during the conflict and a total of 44 dead people had been brought to the city morgue. Russian and South Ossetian officials have claimed that 1,400 people were killed in the first day of fighting, mostly in Tskhinvali.

There have been reports of Ossetians burying relatives in their allotments and there are no lists of the casualties. Neistat stressed that HRW's investigation was not complete

so stop sexing up with a georgian or us govt. slave like position..please be neutral (NOTE THAT I DIDNT ASK YOU TO BE A OSSETIAN)..

so please stop acting too smart..your cooperation is welcomed..Cityvalyu (talk) 00:22, 19 August 2008 (UTC) either state both sides or remove the sentence outright..restoring neutral version as i am not violating 3rr ...Cityvalyu (talk) 00:22, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Excuse my Cityvalyu, I'm not sure if English is your first, second or third language; however, "after acknowledging the "incomplete" nature of her investigation" as you write in your edit, has a completely different meaning than "stressed that HRW's investigation was not complete" <--- meaning still on-going and likely to discover additional information. It does not mean that what she is stating at the moment is false, contains glaring inaccuracies, and therefore should be discounted. --«Javier»|Talk 00:45, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

so atlast you have written without using unapologetic filthy language abuse against me..thats a very good sign ..i appreciate that ...coming back to the issue raised by you feel free to alter the phrase to "after stressing that HRW's investigation was not complete"..dont revert the us/ georgia propaganda version..if you dont want the incomplete (or "not complete" according your "expertness" which you want us to assume) investigation to be mentioned then the whole sentence must not be mentioned..reason1 : undue importance to "not complete" sources..reason 2: neutralityCityvalyu (talk) 00:54, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry but 4 editors have concurred that the previous edit made prior to your continued edits, shows a consensus that the wording as was is preferable to yours. If more consensus in your favor is received, than by all means I agree with the consensus. Until then you are in violation of the 3RR rule and deserve to be blocked. Please adhere to the consensus until otherwise outweighed. Thank you. --«Javier»|Talk 01:01, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

..i guess the sorry is not for using abusive filthy language to harass me..you can clarify since you profess to be an expert in english..regarding the next line in your reply, wikipedia does not follow goebbel's policy of "lie repeated ten times becomes truth"..the yardstick is verifiability..not majority..the yardstick is neutrality..not majority..the yardstick is consensus (not "majority think so"), convince dissenters or produce references to reinsert biased,undue importance edits... Cityvalyu (talk) 01:11, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

"tshinvalli hospital"(reference says so) to actual hospital(original research with weasel word) despite talk page clarification..now you accuse me of vandalism!! is quoting reference vandalism? is restoring neutral (non us/georgian/russian version) point vandalism?..please stop!!!Cityvalyu (talk) 02:13, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Subversive operations

"Georgian units are attempting to increase their combat readiness and have intensified ‘subversive’ operations against Russian servicemen, according to the Deputy Chief of the Russian General Staff. In a news briefing on Monday, he said: 'I cannot rule out that they might use mercenaries with Slavic appearance for a provocation, clad in the uniform of Russian servicemen, in order to commit subversive acts both on Ossetian and Russian territory.'" [12] --Tananka (talk) 02:16, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I remember something along these lines was told in the days of the occupation of Afghanistan by USSR. --CopperKettle (talk) 08:27, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Republics instead of entities

I reverted the edits by Ijanderson977 Taamu (talk) 06:55, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Poti harbor photos

Some damaged and destroyed Georgian ships: [13]. --Namenlos Ein (talk) 08:33, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

What about them? --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 09:28, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

«Georgia claimed Russia had bombed airfields and civil and economic infrastructure, including the Black Sea port of Poti.» «On 8 August 2008, Russian air forces devastated the port of Poti<…>» Bombed? Devastated? Even windows in the buildings nearby looks unbroken. --Namenlos Ein (talk) 10:01, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

As far as I remember, the ships were blown up by the charges installed manually as Georgians let the Russians in by mutual agreement to avoid civilan losses in the case of the "usual" bombardment by planes or artillery. I could be wrong, don't remember where I've read it. --CopperKettle (talk) 17:53, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Here is said that "initially the Russians wanded to conduct an air strike that would destroy the ships in the port itself, but agreed to the Georgian proposal, taxiied three ships out to sea and destroyed them there" --CopperKettle (talk) 17:57, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Number of Refugees?

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24203940-2703,00.html claims 158.000 citing the UNHCR. However the webpage of UNHCR claims only 118.000. http://www.unhcr.org/news/NEWS/48a57cd34.html Can anybody confirm the 158.000 figure?. --Jaimevelasco (talk) 08:49, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Story date: 15 August 2008 - watch your dates. Over 158,000 people displaced by S Ossetia conflict: UNHCR Thousands of Georgians levae their homes every day of "ceasefire". "The figure was broken down as 98,600 people displaced within Georgia, 30,000 within South Ossetia and 30,000 others in Russia, said the UNHCR." As of how Russian occupation and demolition of the infrastructure affects humanitarian impact: "Meanwhile, the UN agency said it had no access by road to some 15,000 displaced people in western Georgia. A railway bridge about 35 kilometres (20 miles) west of Tbilisi was blown up on Saturday, while main roads were cut off by roadblocks, it explained." --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 09:09, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

pdf: http://www.unhcr.org/news/NEWS/48aa842e2.pdf --Anton Gutsunaev (talk) 09:20, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok, thanks--Jaimevelasco (talk) 11:03, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

SS-21 in SO is not confirmed

«Russia never deployed missile complex 'Tochka-U' in South Ossetia»: [14]. So, «Russia has moved short-range SS-21 missiles into South Ossetia, possibly putting the Georgian capital Tbilisi in range, a US defense official said Monday.», is just another case of (dis)information war. --Namenlos Ein (talk) 09:21, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Russian U.N. Ambassador Vitaly Churkin called the media together to announce: "A propaganda war is going on." "This is a massive disinformation campaign," he said, waving copies of The Washington Post and the Financial Times and quoting reports in them about Russian troops attacking the Georgian city of Gori. Churkin said Russian troops had acted responsibly securing a large ammunition dump and more than a dozen tanks and troop carriers abandoned by the Georgians at a military base near Gori, Churkin said, adding that Russian troops "are not in Gori, they have never been in Gori, they have never occupied Gori."[15]

;) --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 09:24, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

fake link to article

• "Russian (Novaya Gazeta) and British (The Sunday Times) journalists embedded with the Russian and Ossetian forces reported that irregulars are abusing and executing captured Georgian soldiers and suspected combatants captured during the "mopping-up operations" in South Ossetia and beyond.". Link to novayagazeta.ru tell me about irregulars (Chechen irregulars) are not executing captured Georgian soldiers. But some from South Ossetia are executing Georgian. There are no words about abusing. I am not protest about your non-NPOV in this article, but base your text on sources.--A20080819 (talk) 10:44, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

These Chechens are regulars (at least officially). GRU is regular Russian formation. Ossetian militia bands and "volunteers from Russia" are irregular military. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 11:15, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Drafted volunteers are not irregular, unless they are subsequently ordered to participitate in irregular warfare. This is an important matter and, IMHO, should definitely be added any information on irregular forces. Please add to article.--Tananka (talk) 13:36, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

"Volunteers from Russia" are not volunteer soldiers in the army (kontraktniki), they're pseudo-"Cossack" paramilitary formations. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 14:22, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

most of smth

• You tell "Most refugees in the conflict are ethnic Georgians.", but not tell "Most dead civilians in the conflict are ethnic Ossetians."--A20080819 (talk) 10:52, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Til now an open question. Can we clear terminus "civilians"? Southossetian sources did include volunteers and militias in their countings of civilian refugees and dead civilians. The "downshifting" of the official dates for Southossetia from russian side is remarkable > 1) over 2000 , 2) 2000 , 3) 1600 , 4) 1400 . Only one is obvious: too many refugees and too many dead & wounded people on both sides Elysander (talk) 12:41, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, 1,400 to at least 2,000 to 1,600 to 60+ / 200-700 now. Of course, most Russians and many others still think 2,000. Btw, Georgia put the number at below 150 back during the "2,000" claim. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 13:40, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Ossetian military losses (right now "Unknown")

From the article: "Russian/Ossetian estimate more than 2,000 South Ossetians killed.[9] Russian/Ossetian claim a confirmed 60-200 Ossetian civilian corpses identified and 500 more unaccounted for.[10]"

So, they now say that more than 1,300 killed/missing in the "genocide" were "Russian citizien" combatants, right? --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 11:52, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Captain Obvious. The first one is estimation and the second number is their registration (It does not means I say their registration is true and real). These two number can be different but of course explanation of the gap is pending.--Kittyhawk2 (talk) 12:39, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Peace for our time

http://www.jamestown.org/edm/article.php?article_id=2373322 --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 12:33, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh boy, jamestown. We're sure to get a balanced view from them! LokiiT (talk) 12:50, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Exchange of prisoners

Georgia gave Russia 5 POWS and Russia gave Georgia 15 POWS (2 civilians) Weren't there reports of Georgians surrendering in their hundreds to South Ossetians and civilians being taken prisoner? There were two separate reports of 7 and 9 captured? Were the "NATO Troops" and "mercenaries" released too? What about those captured by Ossetians? With 300 missing in the cluster fuck that retreat was its hard to believe only 13 combatants were taken prisoner. South Ossetia being an internationally unrecognized state do they even have to release prisoners? Basically they are just criminals in Georgia like the Mahdi Army is in Iraq or Al-Qaeda in Iraq that announced their own government in Al Anbar province in Iraq? The way I see it they don't have to do anything and only Georgia can legally make them release or free the prisoners by enforcing law in Georgia. If South Ossetia wants to act like a legal state which South Ossetia proclaims it to be shouldn't they release the prisoners?

There were no "NATO Troops" and "mercenaries" captured or killed or even deployed. Reports said Ossetian militias were killing captured Georgians. There are some kind of SO military and police forces, but most of them are just "any man with a gun". Btw, just like in the 1992 North Ossetian-Ingush conflict inside Russia on both sides - and then the North Osetians expelled all the Ingush through ethnic cleansing, including also taking hostages - this is just how Ossetians fight their wars. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 13:03, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Very likely prisoners are being executed by the Ossetians alsso Russia took 20 more Georgian Military personnel as prisoners and stole 4 american HMMWVees.

The War of Words from Transitions Online

[16] Interesting article on Russian propaganda war. --93.177.151.101 (talk) 13:30, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Funny images. At least someone is fighting against the US propaganda machine. --CopperKettle (talk) 14:26, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

What are you talking about? This article is about the Russian propaganda machine and the picture is from cyberwarfare attack against Georgia. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 15:53, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Damage and losses in military weapons and equipment

Why there is still no info about damage and losses in military weapons and equipment? I saw some statements appeared on the page but they were deleted soon afterwards. I think it is justified to make two subsections: "Claims by Georgia" and "Claims by Russia" describing the official statements of each side on this issue. - Jake7 (talk) 14:16, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Use your judgement on whether to revert; this article has NPOV issues. (Then again, you've seen the rest of the talk page -- I shouldn't have to tell you that.)

This strikes me as a particularly interesting subject -- both sides have emphasized the Russian seizure of Georgian weaponry, though for different reasons; I'll be curious to see who claims what numbers, and why. Stick to notable sources, of course, but if you take on this subject, good luck. ExOttoyuhr (talk) 16:12, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Wiki-Article for compare

• 1. Kosovo War - ethnic conflict, separatism, incursion...--UAV2000 (talk) 17:34, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Infrastructure damage

Do we need to keep the infrastructure damage subject if now it's clear that Russia hadn't bombed the Tbilisi Airport? Taamu (talk) 09:35, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I think that no. But that we should mention that piece of propaganda.--Oleg Str (talk) 09:41, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

You don't think there's no more infrastucture in Georgia, don't you?

Being bombed by Russians? I guess there wasn't this type of infrastructure at all. Do you have data concerning it? P.S. If yes, please don't confuse it with Georgian propaganda. Taamu (talk) 11:13, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Being looted, burned, mined, demolished during "ceasfire". (Russians call it "taking care of abandoned bases" or "peacekeeping".) --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 11:57, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

100% propaganda! Taamu (talk) 12:30, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Propaganda?? Do you have any sense of dignity? I'm from Gori and these marauding hordes your admired czar send in to plunder Georgia razed my neighborhood to the ground. You used cluster bombs to destroy the civilians and attacked a local hospital. All foreign jouranlists and the UN representatives have confirmed these facts. I can send you my own photos, but I'm sure you will still blubber of "media bias" and "western conspiracy". That's how modern Russian neo-bolshevist propaganda works. --93.177.151.101 (talk) 12:54, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I hope I do have. But, forgive me for being sceptical, i want to see your photos of russians attacking the hospital. The thing i can't really understand, is what the hell they've needed the hospital for? And how could you attack hospital? If no one is shooting back from it, that is? ETST (talk) 13:20, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Questions lifted. I've read news on the hospital. I'm sorry about that. I don't think, it was done intentionally. ETST (talk) 16:17, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I hope these were rhetorical questions. The hospital was clearly marked. "How to attack a hospital": Aim and fire, just before the ceasefire.[http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/2/story.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10526968 --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 20:52, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, and Tskhinvali hospital was an example of "aim and fire, just after the ceasefire" behavior. Stop it, Captain. This war, even without your indignant cries, is bad enough already. ETST (talk) 18:55, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

How dare you mention the sense of dignity after all your government and your troops have done with civilians in South Ossetia!!!??? All foreign jouranlists and the UN representatives can confirm whatever will be useful for the US government. We already saw it when Ossetian girl gave an interview at American TV channel!!! Second, Russian troops attacked millitary base in Gori, there could be killed civilians (accidentally), it's a WAR. You can send me your own photos of what??? I can send you my own photos of the FULLY destroyed by Georgian troops Tskhinval!!! So, please don't try to raise this sort of dispute. Your pres. saakashvili has shown his pathetic face when he ate his tie. He started the war, why doesn't he behave himself as a man? He's acting like a pro&#$tute!!! Taamu (talk) 13:23, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Btw, what "Ossetian girl gave an interview at American TV channel" event are you referring to?(Sorry, i just can't keep up with news). ETST (talk) 16:47, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

TRY THIS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8XI2Chc6uQ 195.218.210.137 (talk) 00:31, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Could someone give Taamu a chill pill? --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 20:30, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

100% propaganda! In the best traditions of the propaganda war Nazi Germany and its Soviet allies waged prior to the invasion and partition of Poland. "All foreign jouranlists and the UN representatives can confirm whatever will be useful for the US government." - Ha, ha! So all foreign jouranlists and the UN representatives work for the US government, right? Typically Russian conspiracy theories and paranoia. There is no cure for that. If you want to see pro&#$tute, go to the Kremlin. We all know how they protect their citizens in Chechnya, Beslan, Ingushetia and now in Georgia. --93.177.151.101 (talk) 13:44, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Bravo, my friend! Thanks for a very fruitful conversation. Taamu (talk) 13:53, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Weird sentence in introduction

From the introduction:

Russian armed forces quickly responded with a large scale counter-attack into South Ossetia but largely refrained from invading Georgia proper.

What does "largely refrained" mean? You either refrain or you don't. How far the invasion went, futhermore, and how far someone wanted to invade (and then generously "refrained") is open to interpretation (making the sentence POV, methinks.) -- megA (talk) 11:22, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Be bold, like this. They did advance significantly, AFAIK. --CopperKettle (talk) 12:10, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I thought as much, but "largely refrain" to be bold on this particular article... ;_) -- megA (talk) 12:56, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I'm the author. My understanding - which may be wrong - is that there were some movements beyond the claimed SO border, but nothing that would genuinely be an invasion of G. Toby Douglass (talk) 15:38, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

The Russians have dug in 40 miles of Tbilisi, blown up at least one railroad bridge, cut the main road from Tbilisi to the sea, occupied several cities and two large military bases, and sunk at least one Georgian ship: all of which actions have been confirmed by Reuters, Human Rights Watch, the Associated Press, the BBC and so on, in the face of constant denials by the Russian government and media. (My "favorite" quote: outside the city of Gori, Russian general Vyacheslav Borisov was asked about the croplands that his irregulars had set on fire, and replied, "It's a farming technique." See http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/stalins-birthplace-a-town-ravaged-by-war/2008/08/14/1218307118845.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1 for one instance of this quote, though I originally saw it elsewhere.)

If you're new to this article and don't have a strong interest in the subject, I strongly recommend that you not get involved. This is a wasps' nest -- there hasn't been much fighting on the ground, so Wikipedia is taking up the slack... :) ExOttoyuhr (talk) 18:27, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

And let me draw your attention to the new section on "Russian claims, then and now," if you're wondering who's to blame for that... ExOttoyuhr (talk) 19:25, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Author again. It seems to me from what I've been reading that indeed the Russians have established a major presence in G proper, so my edit was incorrect. Toby Douglass (talk) 20:52, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Russian claims, then and now

1. (August 8) More than 1,400...1,600...2,000 civilians dead in Tskhinvali!!! COMPLETE GENOCIDE!!!
2. (August 14) 60 civilians verified killed and indetified (and more than 40 Georgian soldiers killed in the battle and left behind during the Georgian withdrawal). Doesn't matter - Georgian genocide anyway!www.int.iol.co.za

1. (August 8) The city completely destroyed!!! Razed to the ground, like Stalingrad in 1943!!!
2. (August 17) 80% of buildings undamaged, after the Georgian attack and the Russian counterattack. Even water supplies expected to be restored in days.[17]

Just wow. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 19:17, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Any problems doing math? 100% - 10% - 20% = 80%?

BTW these numbers refer to the sturdy multi-store buildings only (private cottages area was definitely razed to the ground, there's a lot of footage on this matter). And about 60 civilians, there are exhumations of temporary graves underway, all is done according to standard criminal investigation procedure - a slow process. NOBODY ever announced any FINAL number (even remotely) of casualties. There are over 2100 death claims which are being investigated right now. 195.218.210.133 (talk) 01:01, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Haha. It's amazing. 62.163.232.175 (talk) 19:26, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Two questions: how is this in any way related to improving the article? And how is this in any way different than the bogus claims on the Georgian side, like the one about the destruction of Gori which the UN embarrassingly exposed as being complete rubbish?[18]--71.112.145.102 (talk) 20:11, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

"While the buildings did not appear to be very damaged, there are clear signs of massive looting of both shops and private accommodations," the office of the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees said in a statement. Not "very" damaged, but "massively" looted (by pro-Russian forces under Russian military watch). Thanks for the link. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 12:48, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Stalingrad (whole city like this, that is 0% of undamaged buildings). Stalingrad of course was also a big city - now over 1 million after rebuilt, not a provincional town 30,000.

File:Soviet soldiers moving at Stalingrad2.jpg

Something like this, am I right? All references to "destroyed" Tskhinvali should be removed from Wikipedia.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/29507379@N06/ . Магистер (talk) 22:01, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

So? 1,400 buildings allegedly damaged (including 700 allegedly "beyond repair"). 5,600 buildings officially undamaged. Is this "Stalingrad"? Tskhinvali "existing no more"? --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 22:35, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Why do you keep mentioning Stalingrad?(Igny (talk) 12:55, 19 August 2008 (UTC))

Ha ha. I'll tell you.

• South Ossetian leader Eduard Kokoity compared Georgia's initial assault on the region's capital Tskhinvali, which prompted the Russian invasion, to Germany's attempt to seize Stalingrad during World War II. "Tskhinvali has become the Stalingrad of the Caucusus," Kokoity said at a joint news conference.[19] (I thought "Stalingrad of the Caucasus" was Grozny, but hey.)
• Russian officials have said the city was flattened, comparing the wreckage to the Battle of Stalingrad during World War II. Leaders in Moscow repeatedly referred to genocide and to thousands of corpses.[20]
• Other Russian and South Ossetian officials have pegged the death toll as high as 2000. They have maintained that Georgian troops razed Tskhinvali and left it resembling Stalingrad after the long siege by Nazi troops during World War II. [21]

And so on. (I remember even hearing Medvedev.) --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 20:36, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Undamaged only small buildings. Магистер (talk) 18:52, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Hmm...

• August 17: Russian president Medvedev announces withdrawal of Russian troops will begin on Monday.
• August 18 (Monday): Timeline_of_the_2008_South_Ossetia_war#August_18:_No_sign_that_Russians_have_begun_leaving_Georgia

-- megA (talk) 22:31, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

User:Cityvalyu -- please *avoid* making changes like that!

Specifically, like this. When your edit summary talks about removing weasel words, the last thing you should do is add them... ExOttoyuhr (talk) 21:33, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

alleged was removed to said the refernce permitted onlt that..and russians in that same line unreferenced...Cityvalyu (talk) 01:01, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Be aware that this user has previously made blatant POV edits to this article (see archived discussion from yesterday). It is my impression also that there is a distinct discrepancy between the edit summaries provided by this user and the actual edits. __meco (talk) 22:02, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

you may be lying Cityvalyu (talk) 01:01, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

This is becoming a problem. If this sort of editing pattern doesn't stop, administrators should be notified. Ostap 00:09, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

please feel free to actCityvalyu (talk) 01:01, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Cityvalyu was notified of 3RR, however a more serious problem is that he also uses false edit summaries to describe his edits and now also falsely accuses others of vandalism in his latest edits. Hobartimus (talk) 00:23, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

please refer to vandalism guidelines if you have doubt..note that i have not lodged an official warning since i assumed good faith (unintentional?) from you ...please see your talk page or aleast the discussion below on "being too smart"..thanksCityvalyu (talk) 01:01, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

USER:Cityvalyu has many complaints against him for making extremely biased edits and then editing warring his garbage, currently he is listed under request for editor help and WP:AN with a huge wrap sheet of POV edits, childish behavior, inserting weasel words while caliming to remove them, vandalism and harassing other editors via their talk page - he will probably be banned soon, feel free to undo any biased edits he makes.--Papajohnin (talk) 23:31, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Formal start date of the war

I wonder how "The 2008 South Ossetia war formally began on August 7, 2008" can be either NPOV, community consensus or a matter of fact.

While it is a war (as a consensus), it has not been declared, and the declaration date is not the start date mentioned above. The war is never formally started, but as a matter of results of several escalation of violence. It is not disputed violence happens before 1-Aug, before 7-Aug and before 8-Aug. Choice of 1-Aug, 7-Aug and 8-Aug is completely arbitrary depends on your view how much state-sponsored violence is a war, and depends on whether violence happens on a single de jure territory is considered a war (In my POV whether de jure is not important, but it is POV). --Kittyhawk2 (talk) 12:26, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

This is true. How about "August 2008" with no specific day date? Large-scale hostilities began on August 7, before there were only clashes/provocations. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 12:39, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

A distinction could be made between the initial acts of war and the official declaration of war by the Georgian parliament, through approval President Saakashvili's decree on Aug. 9th. Valid for 15 days. source: [22] Incidentally this decree also declares martial law. [23]--Tananka (talk) 22:58, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

• UTC time? Artillery and MLR strike was first massive action: August 08, 2008 0:45(local time)CNN label--UAV2000 (talk) 19:23, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Prime Minister Putin's role

Russia's PM Vladimir Putin is currently not included in the infobox, or should he? Swedish foreign secretary Carl Bildt says that the Russian invasion is partly Putin's personal revenge and something that he even warned U.S. President Bush for during a dinner session in Sochi. [24] If that's correct, and Putin is not de facto transformed into a lame duck, he may very well qualify for an inclusion in the infobox. --Hapsala (talk) 12:19, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I think he should -- note how when the war started, he immediately headed back from the Olympics -- but here on Wikipedia, a personal opinion and a nickel can get you a cup of coffee (at 1920s prices, at least). However, if you can find a notable analyst who makes the argument, add him, with a cite of that analyst in the infobox. (Wikipedia doesn't normally footnote infoboxes, but I think the policy is to make an exception for this conflict...) ExOttoyuhr (talk) 14:10, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I support including Bildt's assertion into the article. Carl Bildt is a relative heavyweight in international politics and is generally trusted as a sober and knowledgable figure. __meco (talk) 14:24, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Agree!! Carl Bildt's information is a top-quality-source regarding wikipedia standards. Does exist an official English translation?? Elysander (talk) 14:46, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Who is in charge of Russia? Putin or Medevev? I gather Putin is still the captain of the ship (he just kept the power made the Moscow White House the new Kremlin), whith Medevev as the honorary counsel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.21.232.237 (talk) 16:02, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Infobox should contain only commanders, while Putin is Prime Minister. Removing Putin. It was discussed earlier, see Talk:2008 South Ossetia war/Archive 1#Commanders --Anton Gutsunaev (talk) 18:32, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Putin was personal involved and travelled to the war zone to oversee the situation and several reliable sources call this whole thing Putin's war IMO removing Putin from commanders is whitewhashing and denial of the situation. See articles like [25] [26]. Or use google to find several thousand more. Hobartimus (talk) 19:16, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Officially (by constitution) Prime-Minister do not command military forces. I tagged "citation needed" to infobox, so you can prove your edit. --Anton Gutsunaev (talk) 20:34, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Officially or not ! Shall we deny visible and hearable facts ?? Elysander (talk) 21:16, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry -- I contributed to the confusion here: I missed that Carl Bildt said it. It's notable -- it should probably be in the article. ExOttoyuhr (talk) 20:39, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

OK, then Dick Cheney needs to be included in infobox of this article along with Rumsfeld and Powell. Only those commanding military forces (commander-in-chief/presindent) and in charge of operations on the ground (e.g. marshals or generals) should be included in the "Commanders" box. Putin neither of those things and should be removed. Zealander (talk) 23:48, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Let's be honest Cheney cannot be compared to Putin for starters Cheney didn't hand pick Bush for his position Cheney didn't place Bush there, like Putin picked out Medvedev and placed him into his position. A huge number of sources agree that Putin is the number 1 leader of Russia and indeed many sources call this Putin's war. Hobartimus (talk) 02:10, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

It's obvious that Putin is behind this war. He went to Vladikavkaz to push the army to attack Georgia. Rumours say that some Russian military didn't want to attack so Putin himself had to go there and push them. Narking (talk) 07:29, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

That must be rumours from Tbilisi. They say Putin himself was behind fist lines of Russian soldiers. Indeed he was in picket with machinegun :) Actually, I'm not sure rumours should be discussed here. Vadimkaa (talk) 08:47, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Putin indeed went from Beijing to Vladikavkaz. But, is there any reliable and independent sources about his engagements there? Most articles, such as [27] and [28] are written by columnists. Is that good enough for this article? ;) --Hapsala (talk) 13:46, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I can't verify it of course, but it came from a Russian I met in Tbilisi that had contacts within the Russian army. But sooner or later I guess there will be sources about Putin's involvment. Narking (talk) 15:43, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't matter who's behind this war. The entire FSB may well be behind it. But this is out of scope of this article. This article is about military conflict, plain and simple. And only those in actual and legitimate control of the military operations should be mentioned. There is no place for rumours and conspiracy theories. (On a side note a "huge number of sources" agree that Saudi Arabia is controlling US foreign policy and US government is behind 9/11 attacks. Seriously, when will Russia be treated with respect?) Zealander (talk) 16:06, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Section title

I did write an edit summary explaining why I reinserted "EU-brokered..." in the section's title. It is because I think that brings clarity in relation to which agreement it is, as opposed to any other deal. - SSJ ☎ 14:04, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

No need to mention it. If so, it would be better to put France and Russia instead of EU. Taamu (talk) 14:09, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Yep, anyway "EU-brokered" ! But didn´t Lawrow write the "Seven-Points-Note" ? Elysander (talk) 14:49, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

BBC: "an EU-brokered ceasefire" - SSJ ☎ 20:12, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Noted. But when Mr.Sarcozy visited Moscow he didn't have any finished documents concerning the ceasefire, he had just a willingness to accomplish it with Russia and Georgia. So, can we call it a "EU-brokered Six Points"? Taamu (talk) 07:49, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Sarcozy and his diplomats represented the EU, not France. Hence, it's misleading to say that "France" brokered the deal, and it would be even stranger to say "Six-point peace plan brokered by Sarcozy and his diplomats". - SSJ ☎ 09:47, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I mean that Sarcozy as the representative of the European Union visited Russia without any "finished" proposal concerning the ceasefire. Six Points were eleborated by Sarcozy and Medvedev in Moscow. Taamu (talk) 10:22, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Whyzeee -- please avoid Godwin's Law.

Your addition of the German occupation of Czechoslovakia to the "See Also" section went overboard. Comparisons to Hitler's annexation of Czechoslovakia should be done by historians, after the conflict is over; at the present, such a comparison is just inflammatory, even though the Russians are hardly acting virtuously. If notable people compare the conflict to the Sudetenland -- and I'm sure that some have -- you could mention that with suitable citations, here or in the article on international reactions, but Wikipedia is neutral on the issue and will remain so until a consensus emerges among historians. ExOttoyuhr (talk) 14:06, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Agree. --CopperKettle (talk) 14:17, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Me too. __meco (talk) 14:26, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Aren't you the fellow who added a WHEN tag to a footnoted paragraph because it involved the Russians threatening Poland with nuclear attack? [29] Remove the beam from your own eye before removing the speck from your neighbor's. ExOttoyuhr (talk) 20:04, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Wait... I'm sorry. Your edit may have been in good faith, after all -- although if so it was distinctly odd, given that you didn't read the article before making it. ExOttoyuhr (talk) 20:46, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

If notable people compare the conflict to the Sudetenland ... you could mention that with suitable citations. That's it! Elysander (talk) 15:03, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Agree. ⇨ EconomistBR ⇦ Talk 19:33, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

In fact, such a comparison to the Sudentenland has been made by Dick Morris in an article entitled "Russia's Invasion Same as Hitler's" in [30] on August 11. User:Mateat 19:34, August 20 2008 (UTC)

Agree, but then I question how NPOV an article can be that is about an ongoing event. I do however question the link between the Sudatenland and South Ossetia.[[Slatersteven (talk) 17:43, 19 August 2008 (UTC)]]

NPOV is one of the Five Pillars of Wikipedia and absolutely not up for debate -- even if Jimbo Wales were willing to debate it with you, I think that abandoning the policy could mean the end of the Wikimedia Foundation's tax-exempt status. If you need help on how to maintain NPOV on this article or any article (current events or otherwise), please review WP:NPOV. ExOttoyuhr (talk) 19:54, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I was not aware I was debating that this article should be NPOV, mearly that it cannot be. Even if 99% of the editors on this article are NPOV 1% will be POV editors (and looking at the talk page this is a very optimistic figure). Nor do I belive I was advocatinig abandoning it, just that we (and wikipedia) must be aware that there are issues playing out both here and in the real world that must raise questions about the encyclopidic nature of a 'real time' article (after all in cannot even be informative given the fact that many facts will not be known about till after the conflict is well and truley over). Now I belive that I understand what NPOV means, which is why I do not bleive this page can be NPOV no matter how hard those who are truley NPOV strive.[[Slatersteven (talk) 20:31, 19 August 2008 (UTC)]]

That's why we stick to reports by internationally reputable and trustworthy organizations, like Reuters, Human Rights Watch, the AP, and the BBC. ExOttoyuhr (talk) 20:43, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Not everyone has. I have no doubt they will continue to use other (less reliable) sources to back up whatever claim they are making. Moreover how informative are this sources. For example what is the current position of Russian forces. How many troops do they have in Gori? What are Russias war aimes? What level of planing eixsted before the conflict on the part of Russia to annex South Ossetai or Georgia to draw the US into the conflict? Were these even aims? It seems to me that we cannot know what the situatuion on the ground is, not even if we use Neutral sources (especialy as many of them are relying on either POV sources themsleves or imbeded reporters, harldey free agents). This talk page (and the article) is litterd with examples of the events on the ground overtaking and nulifiying many assumptions. At best this article can only be little more then a blog, updated each time a new fact emerges, that is not enclyopedic it is blogopedic. I have been unsure about the wisdom of this (or any real time) article since first seeing it, and that unease grows the more I see how it has become little more then a talking shop for those with anm agenda to promote their version of the conflict.[[Slatersteven (talk) 22:11, 19 August 2008 (UTC)]]

Yes, events on the ground are changing, and this article cannot be as complete as it will be ten years from now (assuming no one starts a nuclear war in the meantime), but it can be as accurate as possible given what's currently known. That's what the infobox about documenting ongoing warfare is there for.

I'm not even going to bother with your argument that embedded reporters can't be trusted. If you don't think they can be, take it up with the Wikimedia Foundation, or maybe Reuters. ExOttoyuhr (talk) 14:48, 20 August 2008 (UTC)