Talk:Prosecution of Donald Trump in New York

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This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.

Discussions:

Not moved, 2 April 2023, from Indictment of Donald Trump to Trial of Donald Trump, see discussion.
No consensus, 9 April 2023, from Indictment of Donald Trump to People v. Trump, see discussion.
Not moved, 9 June 2023, from Prosecution of Donald Trump in New York to Donald Trump business record case, see discussion.
No consensus, 1 August 2023, from Prosecution of Donald Trump in New York to New York prosecution of Donald Trump, see discussion.
No consensus, 31 May 2024, from Prosecution of Donald Trump in New York to Trump hush money trial, see discussion.
Withdrawn, 9 June 2024, from Prosecution of Donald Trump in New York to Conviction of Donald Trump for falsification of business records, see discussion.

Requested move 9 June 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Withdrawn. I am rather surprised to see no clear support expressed for either of these two suggestions after nearly two days, so I am withdrawing the RM. I still think the article should be renamed, but I do not sense convergence and don't want to encourage protracted random discussion under the banner of this RM proposal. (closed by non-admin page mover) —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 21:10, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Prosecution of Donald Trump in New York → Conviction of Donald Trump for falsification of business records – or alt1: Criminal prosecution of Donald Trump for falsification of business records. The previous RM reached the conclusion that a "more descriptive title than 'Prosecution of Donald Trump in New York' is desired" and "a description of the charges (in the article's title) is more useful than their location". This RM is to suggest focusing on "Conviction of" (merging this with Conviction of Donald Trump) or perhaps "Criminal prosecution of" without merging. The "name should be chosen that's clearly distinct from Prosecution of the Trump Organization in New York and from New York business fraud lawsuit against the Trump Organization". Adding "2024" and "New York" seem unnecessary at this point, and "Prosecution of" is ambiguous with Prosecution of the Trump Organization in New York (in which Trump was a defendant in a personal capacity and a falsification of business records was part of the accusation and conclusion). —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 01:17, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose "conviction of" as this article covers much more than just the conviction of Trump, neutral on whether alt title is a better title than the existing one. Definitely agree that this article should be merged with the Conviction of Donald Trump article, but renaming this article as "conviction of Donald Trump..." does not seem to be the best way to do it. Natg 19 (talk) 03:45, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like a different editor already redirected Conviction of Donald Trump here. Natg 19 (talk) 03:53, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I agree that the article should be re-named, but I don't like either suggestion, because they're incomplete. A prosecution begins the court case, but the court case then becomes a trial. The trial has ended in this case with a conviction. Neither of those terms strike me as fully descriptive. I'm neutral, for now. Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 13:42, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose WP:OVERPRECISION. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:12, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose but I would consider yet another different title if someone can find the right description... Jorahm (talk) 19:33, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Modified oppose: I think it should be renamed. But instead, renamed to something such as “Donald Trump hush money trial” or “Donald Trump hush money conviction” since that is generally what the news media calls it. West Virginia WXeditor (talk) 00:05, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@WestVirginiaWX this was already proposed and failed above. Natg 19 (talk) 01:33, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well I still think there should at least be a redirect to the aforementioned names. I’ll check to make sure it isn’t already here (and if not; there’s fixing to be one in less than 5 mins) West Virginia WXeditor (talk) 01:52, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Two minutes later… Donald Trump hush money conviction now redirects to this article. You’re welcome. West Virginia WXeditor (talk) 01:55, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Donald Trump hush money trial already redirected here by the way. West Virginia WXeditor (talk) 02:03, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose because the New York business fraud lawsuit against the Trump Organization is also about falsification of business records. Conviction is both for civil and criminal proceedings, and Trump's business is owned by him and his family. The two cases should not be confused. JohnAdams1800 (talk) 00:50, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with your explanation, but I don't understand how your explanation leads to a conclusion to oppose. This proposed move shares only two words with the other article's title. Since his business entity's name uses his surname, both articles must include his surname. The only other shared word is "business" -- one is "business fraud" and the other is "business records". (Yes, both cases involved business records.) So I don't see how the proposed move's title can be confused with New York business fraud lawsuit against the Trump Organization. rootsmusic (talk) 02:13, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No @JohnAdams1800, Conviction "is the determination by a court of law that a defendant is guilty of a crime." rootsmusic (talk) 02:32, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Conviction of Donald Trump has already been merged here.

rootsmusic (talk) 02:29, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - Per Muboshgu - FlightTime (open channel) 02:33, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: How about Falsification of business records trial of Donald Trump? Nineteen Ninety-Four guy (talk) 10:11, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Uhh no. That is too similar to his civil fraud case in my opinion. It would be easily confused. West Virginia WXeditor (talk) 16:31, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In my opinion, you can refine your new title all you want, my point is the current title is just fine and does not need changing. - FlightTime (open channel) 18:33, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Final charges

The opening paragraph does not reflect the final charges correctly.

The conviction, as per the official jury instructions and final charges document (primary source) was falsification of business records to conceal or commit another crime.

The other crime is specified as violation of Section 17-152 of the New York Election Law (page 30) which is "conspiracy to promote or prevent an election".

The article states that the other crime is one out of three possibilities "violation of federal campaign finance limits, unlawfully influencing the 2016 U.S. presidential election, and tax fraud".

The three possibilities should instead refer to the three theories offered by the prosecution that constitute the unlawful means by which the NY Election Law was violated. And even these are wrong. They should be tax violations, FECA violations, and falsification of other business records (p31+). 82.47.184.148 (talk) 17:42, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal to change to a more accurate description of the conviction. Examples provided below which summarise the final charges as per the primary source linked above. Emphasis added to show that the current article is factually incorrect.

"New York jury found him guilty of all 34 charges in a scheme to illegally influence the 2016 election" AP News
"New York jury has found him guilty of falsifying business records to commit election fraud." Sky News
"Donald Trump has been found guilty of all 34 counts of falsifying business records in a criminal hush-money scheme to influence the outcome of the 2016 election." Guardian

82.47.184.148 (talk) 20:09, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

CBS News Austin affiliate article

I think this is notable, relevant, and reliably sourced, and should be included.

What do others here think?

The Last Hungry Cat (talk) 19:25, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://cbsaustin.com/news/nation-world/doj-official-calls-trump-prosecutions-perversion-of-justice-in-undercover-clip-donald-trump-nicholas-biase-department-of-justice-alvin-bragg-new-york-hush-money-trial-mug-club-undercover

It’s one person’s opinion, which that person has retracted, as stated in the article, so no, I don’t think it merits inclusion. Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 10:39, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This has been reported in multiple reliable sources, and he only retracted his opinion once he discovered he had been recorded. Moreover, this is not just "one person"; he is "a senior official at the Department of Justice's Southern District of New York office". Definitely needs inclusion. Magnolia677 (talk) 13:12, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here's another source:

https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/06/politics/manhattan-us-attorney-office-spokesperson-video-trump-hush-money/index.html

The Last Hungry Cat (talk) 21:35, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Title redux

Our previous discussions on the title have run into a deadlock. As a key element of a title, "hush money" is more recognizable, but is technically incorrect since the charges are for business records falsification, and paying hush money is not even in itself a crime. On the other hand, "business records falsification" is potentially ambiguous with the civil trial and with the separate criminal prosecution of Trump Organization corporations.

I think that combining the two may solve these problems, so I want to ask what people would think of Hush money records falsification trial of Donald Trump or something similar. Antony–22 (^talk⁄_contribs) 23:00, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]