Talk:Philosophy, politics and economics

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Requested move 20 June 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move the page to the requested title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 18:51, 12 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Philosophy, Politics and Economics → Philosophy, politics and economics – Not a proper noun, just like philosophy and economics or electrical engineering. 142.160.89.97 (talk) 20:53, 20 June 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. Mahveotm (talk) 09:00, 2 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Moved from technical requests (permalink). It's a proper noun. A distinct course of study. –Ammarpad (talk) 21:05, 20 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

~~Oppose~~ – The article is about "Philosophy, Politics and Economics", a particular degree programme (and thus proper noun), not the disciplines of philosophy, politics and economics generally. For example, the PPE degree at Oxford and Durham capitalise the degree title. jamacfarlane (talk) 21:10, 20 June 2018 (UTC); !Vote struck per their new !vote below. --TheSandDoctor ^Talk 16:48, 1 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Jamacfarlane: a particular degree programme. The article is not about a particular degree programme. It is about a plethora of degree programmes in a given interdisciplinary discipline.

For example, the PPE degree at Oxford and Durham capitalise the degree title. Would such institutions not also capitalise other interdisciplinary programme names (e.g, environmental studies, religious studies, art history^[1]) in similar contexts? Moreover, you seem to be engaging in the specialized-style fallacy.

And if this is uniquely a proper noun, does that mean that the following capitalization would be required to conform to our MOS?

Doe received a Bachelor of Arts degree in Philosophy, Politics and Economics from the University of Hull in 2002, a Master of Arts degree in environmental studies from Dalhousie University in 2004, and a Doctor of Philosophy degree in environmental economics from the London School of Economics in 2008.
Smith received a Bachelor of Arts degree in Modern Languages and Linguistics from the University of Oxford in 2003, a Master of Arts degree in modern languages from the University of Texas at Arlington in 2005, and a Doctor of Philosophy degree in linguistics from McGill University in 2009.

Similarly, is the phrase really a proper noun in the sentence Of the many undergraduate programmes in philosophy, politics and economics at universities around the world, the programme at the University of Oxford is regarded as amongst the most prestigious.? 142.160.89.97 (talk) 22:58, 20 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I should probably also address the same questions to Ammarpad. 142.160.89.97 (talk) 23:09, 20 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @142.160.89.97:, my point is that (from my reading of it) the article is about particular degree programmes, not the academic discipline. It's a different type of article to the other examples you give: religious studies talks about the content of the academic field, but Philosophy, Politics and Economics talks about which notable people have studied the degree, and which universities offer it. As to the MOS, my view is if you are talking about a degree in something, you would not capitalise it (e.g. a "degree in art history"), but in this case we are talking about the degree of Philosophy, Politics and Economics. It is capitalised in the same way you capitalised "Bachelor of Arts". Therefore I agree the phrase isn't a proper noun in that sentence you quote (regarding Oxford). Perhaps we could split into two articles, one about the PPE degree (notable alumni, which universities offer it, etc) and another about the interdisciplinary discipline. jamacfarlane (talk) 23:19, 20 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Jamacfarlane: As to the MOS, my view is if you are talking about a degree in something, you would not capitalise it (e.g. a "degree in art history"), but in this case we are talking about the degree of Philosophy, Politics and Economics. It is capitalised in the same way you capitalised "Bachelor of Arts". Strictly speaking, one does not have a "degree of Philosophy, Politics and Economics". One is admitted to the degree of Bachelor of Arts following the completion of a given course of study, in this case, philosophy, politics and economics. Whereas Bachelor of Arts is a title (yes, phrases like Doe is a Bachelor of Arts have fallen out of fashion, but it is a title nonetheless), philosophy, politics and economics is a course of study, hence the difference in capitalisation. Also, to clarify, which provision of the MOS is it that you're referencing there?

Therefore I agree the phrase isn't a proper noun in that sentence you quote (regarding Oxford). Perhaps we could split into two articles, one about the PPE degree (notable alumni, which universities offer it, etc) and another about the interdisciplinary discipline. But in the sentence you're referring to, isn't the term referring to the undergraduate programme rather than the interdisciplinary discipline (if we are to make such a distinction as you propose)? I'm sure we can take it as given that the term is not a proper noun when used to refer to an interdisciplinary discipline and you're saying that it isn't a proper noun when referring to the undergraduate programme. So if it's not a proper noun in either sense, why would we capitalize it?

Lastly, what did you make of the other two examples I provided (the Hull/Dalhousie/LSE example and the Oxford/Texas/McGill example)? 142.160.89.97 (talk) 01:19, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm coming to your point of view and will support but would appreciate if the article could be reworded to focus on the discipline instead of particular degree programmes which (at least, the institutions running them assert) are proper nouns. jamacfarlane (talk) 18:11, 22 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging @Johnsoniensis and Blake-: who commented on a previous RM for this article. jamacfarlane (talk) 22:31, 24 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Footnotes

^ Note that it is separate from the history of art article.

Move to "Philosophy, Politics and Economics degree", i.e. add "degree" after the current title. That can clarify things, right? --George Ho (talk) 03:02, 28 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. No reason for a degree course to be capitalised and no further disambiguation or clarification is needed as it's a very commonly recognised phrase. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:21, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Political science?

How does this differ from a Political Science degree?

Kortoso (talk) 01:05, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

How does it differ from a Sociology degree?

A glance through the list of recipients of PPE (the degree) might suggest 'class'. However, remember editing guidelines: This is not a forum. 80.41.190.159 (talk) 08:55, 7 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Political Science

How do Philosophy and Political Science tie together? MorganRichard (talk) 15:06, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Empirical approach. --83.137.6.244 (talk) 11:41, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

List of institutions offering the degree

I think this should be removed as it violates WP:NOTDIRECTORY and includes plenty of universities that don't actually offer the degree. Thoughts? 144.82.8.115 (talk) 09:24, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

AutisticAndrew can you please explain your revert? 144.82.8.115 (talk) 13:38, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it violates WP:NOTDIRECTORY. Please stop unreasonably removing the content again or you will be banned. --83.137.7.167 (talk) 14:24, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Capitalisation (again)

I am unable to find any example of the uncapitalised version in the sources given for the UK institutions which offer this undergraduate course. And the US examples look pretty similar. Doesn't this suggest it should be capitalised? I see the last move was 6 years ago. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:20, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed… I believe this comes down to the “proper noun” debate… I believe that Courses are usually prescribed to the cohort. Unlike the “American” model where there are suggested courses within a specified core-area. (E.g. - in the U.S.: Students take general topic courses that are relevant to the degree, these courses may or may not be “lock-stepped”; depending on the institution… I think that the “Oxford-model” may be different than other schools, even within the U.K.

P.S.: New here, please do not defenestrate me… Just yet!

Reference

Hyperlink: https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/courses/course-listing/philosophy-politics-and-economics

Body Text: ”About the course

Philosophy, Politics and Economics (PPE) arose from the belief that the advanced study of all three subjects would transform students’ intellectual lives, to great social benefit. This conviction remains as firm today as it was then. As the world has evolved, so has PPE. The course brings together some of the most important approaches to understanding the world around us, developing skills useful for a wide range of careers and activities. […]” Alexisbytes (talk) 17:46, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Note that it is separate from the history of art article.

[1]