Talk:Petar Atsev

Neutrality disputed.

i attempted to assert a neutral view where its presented that Petar Atsev was simply a revolutionary from Macedonia, but its been reverted and im adding the tag here due to several issues regarding the neutrality.

One of the main issues is this "source" that Jingbys provided for that Atsev was Bulgarian was written by a Bulgarian academy. Usually i don't mind the usage for Bulgarian or Macedonian sources for articles but using them for deciding a characters ethnic origins is absolutely not neutral, a Bulgarian academy will easily call him Bulgarian just like a Macedonian would do the same. If no proper foreign sources are provided i will remove that source as it falls under POV Gurther (talk) 19:13, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Deletion of sources

Stop deleting sources. This is bordering vandalism . Thanks. Jingiby (talk) 07:53, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Jingiby, the currently source is unreliable and with conflicting messages, a random newspaper signing is unreliable, considering the fact that in 1936 Petar Atsev also wrote in a Bulgarian newspaper with pro-Macedonian ideals and even calling himself a Macedonian Actavist. Gurther (talk) 07:58, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Publication of the Bulgarian Academy of sciences is sufficient reliable. Moreover, there is a primary source in the article, confirming the same info. Jingiby (talk) 08:15, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Jingiby, stop removing the tag without a proper reason, if Bulgarian academic sources do support it then instead of removing the tag attach those sources and remove the unreliable primary sources, moreover you have seemed to ignore the fact that Atsev also declared himself as a Macedonain revolutionary and advocated for a free Macedonia in one of his newspaper issues in 1936, thus the claim he was a "Macedonian Bulgarian" is disputive. Gurther (talk) 08:39, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Gurther, the link to which the source in question is attached, can be traced to Macedonia: Documents and Materials, Compiled by Voin Bozhinov; Contributors L. Panayotov, Bulgarian Academy of Sciences, 1978. Before requesting better sources, just check the provided ones. Thanks. Jingiby (talk) 08:48, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Jingiby, yes ive noticed i reformatted the source better and removed the tag Gurther (talk) 08:51, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

I disagree with these edits and have returned the article to the stable version. Jingiby (talk) 08:55, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Jingiby, and what do you disagree with? besides your Bulgarian bias. Gurther (talk) 08:55, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

The dispute of neutrality was already resolved by Gurther check here. No reason to add the same tag again on the same issue and the same text and sources, but without any justification. Jingiby (talk) 09:28, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Jingiby, i was wrong with the removal of the neutrality tag back then, i wasnt aware of how old primary sources are unreliable on wikipedia, now after discovering that it does violate rules i've readded the tag, also stop removing tags without the other side responding, it will only lead to further edit wars. Gurther (talk) 09:34, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Now you have a secondary ones. Jingiby (talk) 09:35, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Jingiby, Bulgarian sources for their identity is unreliable, English sources stating that hes a Bulgarian can be accepted, since Bulgarian sources will call him Bulgarian and Macedonian would call him Macedonian its just unreliable since both sides have had their own biases Gurther (talk) 09:40, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Full protection 2 days

@Jingiby and @Gurther, please work this out here before either of you edits again. Valereee (talk) 12:03, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Valereee, i believe adding a admin lock for this is a little too far, you could have simply just send out a warning to the both of us or atleast added a silver lock (or maybe even a blue lock) anyways the edit disruption has ended awhile ago, although i want to point out Jingibys violation of the three revert rule by doing around 4-5 reverts in less then 24 hours. Gurther (talk) 16:31, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Hi Valereee, I checked the cited source added before locking the topic: ASNOM vo sozdavanjeto na državata na makedonskiot narod referati od naučen sobir održan od 29 do 31 oktomvri 1984 godina vo Skopje (1987) by the Makedonska akademija na naukite i umetnostite p. 54. It turned out that the information there has nothing to do with what is claimed as a quote about a publication in a newspaper Мakedonski vesti and Macedonian self-identification in an ethnic sense of Atsev, etc. I will put a tag for failed verification as soon as the thread is unlocked. A few days ago there was a similar case with the same editor. I asked him to provide sources to support his thesis here, but after checking them turned out that they did not match his claims, please check here, here and here. Gurther is constantly deleting sources and is arbitrarily putting templates on different articles without justifying them. As can be seen on this talk page, this user has already raised the issue of its neutrality once. After his claims were satisfied according to his views at the time, he removed the template. Now there are new claims and the template was put again. Firstly, he rejected Bulgarian secondary sources, but wanted a primary one with a self-identification of the subject. He got it and was satisfied, and now he no longer recognizes any Bulgarian sources, secondary, primary, self-identification, etc. This is strange position. I will also ask User:StephenMacky1 who is also active on this topic and has an observation on the cases above to take a position on the matter. The latest instance of unilateral template removal just happened here. Jingiby (talk) 17:47, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Jingiby, hello Jingby i advise laying down the accusations and assume better faith when it comes to me and other editors, you've seemed to have rough history with Macedonian editors and in the Macedonian wikipedia you were blocked several times for harrasment, when it comes to IMRO i only provided english sources about authors who view MRO as its first name, but did not deny the possibility at all, if you checked the threat before you would see Jingby promoting the view that only Macedonian historians denied it, which is plain false, i also wanna mention that early on i wasn't aware that primary sources were aganist the wiki guidelines, but after i did learn i re-added the tag, and it somewhat confuses me with how you promote primary sources for no real good reason

I also recommend you stop altering my words and what i've been saying, i do not deny the reliability of the Bulgarian books, they are useful, but in terms of the persons identity its not reliable, since the Macedonian books mention Acev as Macedonian, and the Bulgarian as Bulgarian, it doesn't help aswell since Bulgaria and Macedonia are in dispute about the topics like these, so using books about a persons ethnic character from either side is promoting POV. I also wanna point out your hypocrisy, you mention how i dont recognize any Bulgarian sources, yet here you are denying Macedonian sources. i have honestly no clue whats your views anymore, you seem to accuse me of things about Bulgarian sources and materials yet do the same thing for Macedonian, i expected someone who has worked with Wikipedia for 15+ years to be more consisted and not promoting fringe views, i do not see any reason for pulling Stephenmacky into this, he has never left a comment nor edit about the situation, it seems to me that its a waste of time. Gurther (talk) 18:17, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

I also wanna note how you reverted my warning about the edit war in your talk page (despite the fact you've done 3 reverts, here, here, here) when you reverted my warn on your talk page (despite the fact i was right) you procceded to warn me, despite me doing only 2 reverts, (here, here) you falsely accused me of edit warring despite you being the edit warring, this type of behaviour is purely childish and stubborn. Gurther (talk) 18:25, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, no comment on content or interpretation of sources. Valereee (talk) 18:35, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Understandable, you are simply just following WP:PREFER, im only writing this towards Jingby. Gurther (talk) 18:41, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

@Gurther, you've both accused the other of edit-warring. Figuring out the edit history looks incredibly tedious; frankly if I'd spent the time it would have taken to go through it in detail enough to completely understand it and concluded you'd both been edit-warring, I'd have probably ended up grumpy enough at that huge waste of time to have blocked you both rather than warned. The protection is only for two days. Valereee (talk) 18:41, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Valereee, i only reverted twice (here, here), thus i haven't edit warned, since for a edit war to begin someone has to violate the 3 Revert Rule, per WP:3RR Gurther (talk) 18:43, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Again it would take me a long, tedious time to determine the actual situation; you've each made that accusation, and I just really don't want to waste that time.

Just talk instead of counting reverts. You know how many times I am willing to revert anything (but a BLP violation) before I take it to discussion? ONCE. You know how many times someone needs to revert me (on anything but a BLP violation) before I take it to discussion? ONCE. Literally.

And please don't quote 3RR. That's the minimum allowable standard for bad behavior, not some shining example. Valereee (talk) 18:54, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Alright Vale, we will try to discuss this, i advise raising the lock for 4 days since Jingby sometimes doesn't comment for days on post like these. Gurther (talk) 19:02, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

We like to start with the minimum, but I'll try to keep an eye on it. Feel free to ping me if edit-warring recommences after the protection ends. Valereee (talk) 19:07, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

As I already stated after unlocking the topic I will put a failed verification tag after the source added with the last sentence. It is good that the misinterpretation and deletion of sources stops.Jingiby (talk) 19:14, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Hello. I've suggested WP:RSN as a possible resolution to a dispute before and it could apply here too, especially if there's a perceived problem with sources. I noticed that the neutrality of the article was disputed in March too, which was seemingly resolved. So it appears strange to me. What changed since then? EDIT: Actually I can see what the issue is now. The sources are not perceived as proper now. StephenMacky1 (talk) 19:38, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

StephenMacky1, the issue resurfaced because in 1936 Petar Acev in a Bulgarian newspaper located in Sofia wrote an article calling himself a ethnic Macedonian, thus him being Macedonian Bulgarian isnt as clear cut anymore, also the older version used primary sources and back then i wasn't aware of the fact that primary sources (for the most part) are unreliable, especially for a situation like this. Gurther (talk) 19:45, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

I can see that. Well, I've checked the Macedonian source half-way, since I don't have full access to it. It does appear to claim him as an ethnic Macedonian. Could you provide the quote in Macedonian? StephenMacky1 (talk) 20:19, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

StephenMacky1, after doing a short search i managed to find a better book talking about this case,

1. Prilozi za Ilinden 1978 materijali od Naučniot sobir Mestoto na Ilindenskoto vostanie i Kruševskata republika vo borbata na makedonskiot narod za nacionalno i socijalno osloboduvanje, održan na 3, 4 i 5 avgust 1978. g. vo Kruševo po povod 75-godišninata od Ilindenskoto vostanie (1978) by Aleksandar T. Hristov (publisher : Sovet Deset dena Kruševska republika : Naučno-kulturni sredbi--Kruševo) p.53

basically the source talks about Petar Acev a little and when it came to his IMRO activity he cited the newspaper and calling him Macedonian because of it (sadly due to extremely limited viewing i have no clue what exactly about his IMRO activity its talking about) Gurther (talk) 20:31, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

All right. Are there any contemporary Macedonian sources which talk about him and mention his ethnic identity? When it comes to such things, I also make sure to that there are sources about a certain subject in the post-independence era too. I'd also like to ask again if you have the quote from the source which you added. StephenMacky1 (talk) 20:56, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

I do not understand what you want, you want other old primary sources or other sources in general calling him Macedonian? Or more sources about the newspaper? Gurther (talk) 21:03, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Preferably Macedonian sources from the post-independence era and the quote from the source which you added here, in Macedonian. If you have sources about the newspaper, they'd be great too. StephenMacky1 (talk) 21:16, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

alright here is the quote, although due to limited viewing to might be somewhat uncoherant:

Отоманската влада се засилила во градот[this is talking about the 10 day Krushevo Republic], кога во Крушево за главен учител бил назначен Димитар Иванов од Ешкису, Леринско, и учителот Петар Ацев од с. Ореовец, Прилепско [here appears a source and from what i could check it cites the newspaper, and even gives a date on when it was written; July 15 1936, titled "The Macedonian Question"]

Anyways here are other Macedonian sources calling Acev Macedonian[note: there is a small amount of sources from post-independence talking about him, since he isn't really notable]:

• Manol D. Pandevski (1983) Vnatrešnata makedonska revolucionerna organizacija i neovrhovizmot, 1904-1908 (publiser : Kultura) p.283
• Nikola Štrkovski (1983) Opštinite vo Socijalistička Republika Makedonija (publiser : Misla) p.109
• Јован Павловски (2006) Вчера и денес Македонија! практикум по историја (publiser : МИ-АН) p.235 (ISBN- 9789989613562)
• Blaze Ristovski (1989) Портрети од македонската литературна и национална историја (publiser : Kultura) p.605
• Mishel Pavlovski (1993) Od prvična ideja do država eden možen pogled na razvojot na nacionalnata misla i državnosta kaj Makedoncite (publiser : Detska radost) p.166

Gurther (talk) 08:02, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Hi, only to note the different meanings of the terms Macedonian and Macedonians, and that they should not be interpreted out of the context of then time. There is a difference in the meaning of the term Macedonian as an obsolete terminology, and the meaning of the term Macedonian after the WWII. Remember that the second meaning of this terminology was promoted basically after the Second World War. Just to note that Atsev was then already deceased. It is appropriate to remind again about the opinion of the Macedonian Academician Ivan Katardziev that all IMRO revolutionaries had a Macedonian political identity, which included the idea of an Independent Macedonia, which would unite all Macedonians, regardless of their nationality. At the same time, Katardzev is categorical that all these people remained in practice with Bulgarian national identity, even after the Second World War. Finally, Katardziev also warned that many people today do not distinguish between the political identity and the national one, which is a gross mistake. I would have forgotten that in the presented newspaper clipping, which does not even represent the entire article, nowhere does Acev declare himself an ethnic Macedonian, but speaks of an independent Macedonia, etc. Jingiby (talk) 08:22, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Jingiby, please stop misinterpreting academic sources, after WW1 the obsolete terminnology became extremely outdated as during this time (with the divide of Macedonia and the removal of the propaganda schools ran by Bulgaria) the Macedonian identity started rapidly developing, even Katardziev has noted this, i also wanna talk about the interview Forum, you seem to take it out of context and you do not seem to properly understand what Katardziev was talking about, he said how they felt Bulgarian, not because they were Bulgarian, but because that was the philosophy that they were forced to adopt during their time in Bulgaria, this also applied to those who stayed in Serbia, they adopted Serbian philosophy, also Katardziev didn't categorize all Macedonian revolutionaries, he only categories former IMROU members, which in the Petar Acev article mentions how he wasn't a member of the group, thus bringing Katardziev philosophy into this isn't reliable nor related, i also wanna note Keith Browns interview about the Macedonian revolutionaries, in it he mentions how their declarations as "Macedono Bulgars" is simply a religious or language oriented declaration, and that during the 1920s when an actual proper ethnic identity began forming they all switched to Macedonians. This actually somewhat explains and helps us understand why in the 1900s he signed the Macedonian Bulgarian protest but went back on it in 1936. Gurther (talk) 08:39, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

On the contrary, the members of IMRO United, and not all of them, began to perceive a Macedonian identity since 1934, but the organization split for this reason. Other activists do not accept this idea at all. Jingiby (talk) 09:06, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

yes i said IMROU as in IMRO United, also which former IMROU activist never accepted the Macedonian identity? Gurther (talk) 09:12, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

New source

User:Gurther, the new source you presented is as follows: Prilozi za Ilinden 1978 materijali od Naučniot sobir Mestoto na Ilindenskoto vostanie i Kruševskata republika vo borbata na makedonskiot narod za nacionalno i socijalno osloboduvanje, održan na 3, 4 i 5 avgust 1978. g. vo Kruševo po povod 75-godišninata od Ilindenskoto vostanie (1978) by Aleksandar T. Hristov (publisher : Sovet Deset dena Kruševska republika : Naučno-kulturni sredbi--Kruševo) p. 53. At the same time, on the indicated page 53, I cannot find any info about this person. In the index at the end of the book it can be seen that he is mentioned in a completely different place, namely only on p. 149. Maybe I didn't understand something? Please provide some clarification on this matter. Thanks. Jingiby (talk) 06:34, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Jingiby, I don't have much time for an explanation since i am quite busy but i and Stephen discussed the source in here so just read the convo and i think you will understand, if you want more clarifications just ping me, it might take awhile for a response but as soon as im free ill respond. Gurther (talk) 07:31, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

User:StephenMacky1, I'm sorry, but since Gurther told me that you discussed this source above, can you explain to me what it's about, because I can't get my head around it. Jingiby (talk) 08:52, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Alright since im somewhat free for now ill give you a short explanation, basically the books discusses about Krusevo which according to the book Petar Acev was, it talks about how he was a teacher there (or something like that) and procceds to cite the newspaper and calls him Macedonian thus confirming to us that infact in the newspaper, he meant Macedonian as in ethnic group and not Macedonians as in regional. Gurther (talk) 09:45, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Gurther, neither the name of Atsev nor the name of Krushevo is mentioned on page 53. Also on the alphabetical index of names at the end of this book both names are not present on page 217. Jingiby (talk) 11:04, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Gurther, , I see that today here you also used a source that has nothing to do with what you claim to be writen in the book. It is a question of courses for Serbian teachers to which Bulgarian teachers were forced to go in the part of Macedonia occupied by Serbia after the Balkan Wars. Martulkov was disgusted by Serbian propaganda.Jingiby (talk) 12:29, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Jingiby please view WP:OR, just because of the title you cannot assume its not reliable, Chris Kostovs book about Macedonian immigrants in Canada has also been used by you for citing non-Canada related subjects which suggest hypocrisy, also the book mentions him, the quote thats attached to the source is from said page, also i have no clue why you are bringing in Martulkov in the Atsev talk page, if you have issues about Martulkov raise them in the talk page of the related article. Gurther (talk) 15:41, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

I thought the discussion above was about the source ASNOM vo sozdavanjeto na državata na makedonskiot narod referati od naučen sobir održan od 29 do 31 oktomvri 1984 godina vo Skopje (1987) by the Makedonska akademija na naukite i umetnostite, since that's what I was requesting a quote for. I can confirm that both sources mention Atsev though. However I was never able to verify the information about the newspaper. I was also not able to verify if the current source mentions his ethnic identity. StephenMacky1 (talk) 14:04, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

I checked where the Makedonski vesti newspaper is mentioned in the book. This happens on pages 99 and 100. The same is confirmed by the alphabetical index on page 218. Neither the name of Atsev, the town of Krusevo or this newspaper is mentioned on p. 53. This means that the verification check failed again. Jingiby (talk) 09:19, 13 May 2023 (UTC)