Talk:Nicholas Leonicus Thomaeus

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It appears that Jaques has once more proven unreliable. A quick search in a library cleary indicates some facts about the specific biography: Niccolo Leonico Temoe, was born in Venice of Epirote Greek parentage and studies Greek in Florence under Demetrius Chalconcondyles..Alexikoua (talk) 15:34, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Some other sources on the subject: "Niccolo Leonico Tomeo (1456-1531), born in Venice to Greek parents", "was the first professor to lecture on the Greek text of Aristotle. As a Venetian of Greek parentage, Leonico Tomeo inherited the mantle of Byzantine scholars such as Gaza"Alexikoua (talk) 15:38, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

On the other hand Jaques' work can only be used in the field of science fiction. A typical quote of this book makes it clear that not a single word bears any connection to real history, in p. 92: "Apparently most of the leadership and most of the soldiery involved in this Asia expedition (Alexander's campaign) were Pelasgian or Albanian."Alexikoua (talk) 15:50, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Similarly, sources published by an old totalitarian regime, especially a N.Korean equivalent, are far from being considered wp:rs. All we have based on neutral bibliography agrees that he was born in Venice.Alexikoua (talk) 17:21, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Nevertheless disruption is still in full motion, perhaps this talkpage isn't enough to settle this obvious issue.Alexikoua (talk) 13:18, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Steven Runciman, one of the most credible experts on the subject gives some information about Greek contribution to the Renaissance, in [[1]], p. 212:

The University of Padua was one of the first to encourage the study of Greek; and Greeks who could lecture on Greek texts were especially welcome. A Chair of Greek was dounded there in 1463 and given to the Athenian Demetrius Chalcondylas. One of his successors, Nicholas Laonicus Thomaeus, an Epirot by birth, gave in 1497 a course of lectures on Aristotle, unsing only the Greek text and a few Alexandrian commentaries.Alexikoua (talk) 13:25, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

albanian propaganda was removed from the entry, because it's 100% incompatible with reality & the principles of this encyclopedia (WP:V, WP:RS). all sources written by real historical experts describe Thomaeus as a Venetian scholar of Greek origin (Jacques & 'scholars' from the Hoxha era are very unreliable sources). so as to preserve this encyclopedia's credibility, please keep pseudo-history & pseudo-science out of this entry. thanks. 100.1.14.113 (talk) 21:04, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

To be more precise: widely established international scholarship tend to disagree with what was written inside Albania during the People's Republic regime. There is no doubt that experts like Runciman are quite careful when choosing their citations.Alexikoua (talk) 21:30, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

It's not the first time you consider the Albanian scholars as unreliable,while you use greek politicans as references.Also there is Jacque.Note that these all are references,you can't delete them only because you think that they are fabricated by communist Albania.Also you deleted many other informations that haven't been edited by me,only to add the information you like.There are two hypothesis about the origin of Thomaeus ,but you want to see only the greek one there.Rolandi+ (talk) 14:29, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

I fail to see any Greek source in this article. Can you be more precise?Alexikoua (talk) 14:47, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

You also need to learn some basic rules in English: Greek is written with the first letter in caps, just like Albanian.Alexikoua (talk) 14:50, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

I didn't refer as greek politicans to the references at this article ,but to references you have used at many articles,such as Souliotes.Rolandi+ (talk) 17:31, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

You can make comments in the correspondent talkpages. I'm happy we reached an agreement that this article has not Greek sources at all.Alexikoua (talk) 18:21, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

This doesn't mean you can vandalize wikipedia.Add the albanian hypothesis. Rolandi+ (talk) 20:05, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

At this stage, do not add the "Albanian hypothesis". The most reliable revision is the current one. The removed references are Albanian and have the subject of "History of Albania/ns" and mention him only in passing, along with other Venetian people claimed to have been of Albanian origin; the reliable revision uses international sources with the subject of art and philosophy of that era. Also, Rolandi+ seems to misunderstand the definition of vandalization.--Zoupan 20:54, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

And Jacque?You use serb scholars as references at albanian nobility pages...also go and read the books that I have used as references and then come and talk about them.Rolandi+ (talk) 08:50, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

According to Elsie's review on this work: "The critical reader and the serious student of Albanian history must, however, be warned to use this book only in conjunction with a more cautious and scholarly monograph on the subject, [[2]]. This makes it non-wp:rs. Claims such as Albanian participation in Trojan War or in Alexander's campaign are hard to be historically accurate. The same occurs with the rest of the content which can't be verified by more cautious and scholarly works on the subject, as Elsie points.Alexikoua (talk) 13:29, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Firstly,Elsie's claim doesn't mean that Jasque isn't reliable.Many scholars claim such thing about others' work.Also note that there are albanian scholars.Also you deleted infos that were not based on these references.You did this without concensus. We can't find a concensus yet,so until there ,our recent edits will be reverted to the article's version as of 20:48, 18 June 2015.Rolandi+ (talk) 14:19, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Elsie is quite precise be warned to use this book only in conjunction with a more cautious and scholarly monograph on the subject, as for the works published during the People's Republic period the issue has been addressed in the wp:ani case, which is still active.Alexikoua (talk) 14:45, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Also your edits have been addressed in the wp:ani case, which is still active.So everything is OK.Now there is consesnus between us to revert to the article's version as of 20:48, 18 June 2015.Thank you. Rolandi+ (talk) 15:56, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

That says he was Albanian -born,but I think that the the right version is Venetian born.Rolandi+ (talk) 16:06, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

What consensus? What are you talking about? You just removed most of the article, leaving in only the highly unreliable and partisan Edwin Jacques. This is outrageous. There is no consensus for this, not one user supports this. Athenean (talk) 18:19, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Added source that he was Albanian. Scholars disagree, some say Greek some Albanain. We're all volunteers here, so we just report what the scholars say, :-). 52714Number (talk) 22:53, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Did I do anything wrong? Why are DR K and ALEXIKOUA reverting me? 52714Number (talk) 00:07, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

You need to be more precise on which works claim that he is Albanian. They also need to be wp:rs (not published by totallitarian regimes, such as N. Korean stalinist equivalents).Alexikoua (talk) 06:59, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Irene Favaretto is Italian, and Italy is not a totalitarian regime, unless, of course, you disagree, and we may discuss that too. 52714Number (talk) 12:57, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

She lacks a primary inline. In fact she lacks inline in general. Thus, per wp:HISTRS this can't be added as an alternative option.Alexikoua (talk) 14:07, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

What is primary inline?

1. I understand from the link you provided she should not be a primary source. She isn't: she is a peer reviewed secondary source.
2. You want to see the citation inline? The citation that I brought and you reverted, because you thought she came from a totalitarian regime (and then DR K reverted too because they thought I was a sock), is in Italian, and you can see it in googlebooks. You can also translate it in English through Google translate.

And please stop calling me a sock everywhere (edit summaries, user page, whereever).52714Number (talk) 15:11, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

I see no inline citation in Favaretto. The entire paragraph lacks inlines. Where does she take this info? It's quite weird since the entire western bibliograph is quite clear and detailed about his background. Apart from that, Favareto by claiming "Albanese" doesn't necessary mean that this was his ethnic background, since Albania in 15th century had a much broader geographic meaning.

And yes Dr.K is quite right, per wp:sockpuppet (as far I remember, manipulating Italian reference was a typical pattern of an old block user who is following me recently).Alexikoua (talk) 19:59, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

On the other hand it's no wonder that mainstream bibliography is quite clear on his background, some additional works: [[3]] (Oxford University Press), [[4]].Alexikoua (talk) 20:20, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

"...since Albania in 15th century had a much broader geographic meaning.".Which is this much broader geographic meaning?The reference says Albanian that is a ethnicity,not Albania that is a geographic meaning. "It's quite weird since the entire western bibliograph is quite clear and detailed about his background."---where did you learn that?Rolandi+ (talk) 20:16, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

@Rolandi: Resnjari in the wp:ani case (which is still active) was willing to help you about this case: He explained to you that someone born in what's today Albania, doesn't necessary mean he is of Albanian ethnicity. The Italian source says simply "Albanian". On the other hand several mainstream works clearly state that he was of "Greek parentage" or "son of a Greek". In general historical information published by credible publishers such as Oxford and Cambridge Press can't be so easy refuted, especially by works that lack inline reference such as the above brought by the all-fresh account above.Alexikoua (talk) 20:32, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

@Alexikoua The reference says "rifugiato" albanese.

Firstly,rifugiato albanese doesn't mean necessarily that he was born in Albania. Secondly,however it says Albanian,doesn't say Albanian of greek origin.

However,please don't worry about that.I don't have enough time now,as I have to sleep,but in the future I will give you many references about this case.In fact,I have to use only references for my claims.Goodnight Alexikoua!Rolandi+ (talk) 21:17, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Alexikoua, the Albanians usually speak Italian: we are the country where Italy companies establish their shared services, and who sings the Italian anthem while we play against Italy, so if you call customer service in Milan, you might get someone on the phone from Tirana. So next time try not to deduct much from my knowledge of Italian (like you deducted that Mrs. Favaretto was from a totalitarian regime North Korean style).

Going back to Favaretto: "rifugiato albanese" means "Albanian immigrant", plain and simple, it doesn't mean "immigrant from Albania, but who has to be Greek".

Favaretto is not the only scholar who says that Tomeu's father was Albanian:

Scholar Charles Lohr (1988), a very respected figure on the Aristotle studies says it too in his "Latin Aristotle Commentaries: Renaissance authors". He says "Thomaeus, Nicolaus Leonicus 1456 Venice (of Albanian or Epirote parents) - 1531 Padua." You can see an immense bibliography produced by Lohr on Aristotle here.

The Rosary College of Italian Studies (from the Dominican University) has a peer reviewed article where the citation says "professore veneto oriundo albanese del tempo, Thomaeus, non ebbe simpatia per Becichemus", referring to another Albanian Marinus Becichemus Scodrensis.

So far I could produce three reliable sources (Favaretto, Lohr, and the article on the Italian studies (can't see the name of the author, but the publication itself is reliable), who assert that Tomeu was of Albanian ethnicity.

You still keep thinking that all authors were convinced he was Greek?

With this insistence of yours, how balanced do you think is the article and how much is it relying on independent, peer reviewed sources? 52714Number (talk) 22:24, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

And, Alexikoua, I have two more questions for you:

1. What articles is the old user following you, and how do you think it makes me feel when you continue comparing me to other people? I am a woman and am highly turned off if compared to someone else.
2. Are #1, #2, as well as #3 your socks?52714Number (talk) 22:31, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

You still didn't answer which is the inline reference where it states this about his supposed uncertain background. Off course a 10-lined biography without inline citations can't give the full picture and render works of publishing houses such as Cambridge, Oxford & Princeton Press, useless. You need a good argument, not just providing short 10-lined bio, such as the above, of uncertain background which lacks inline citation.Alexikoua (talk) 13:28, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

The user in question have ravaged other Wikipedia articles on the same subject, on Swedish Wikipedia he/she have failed miserably. This a classic example of hijacking, as we have seen on the article about the Arvanites. --Vannucci (talk) 20:19, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Vannucci, the "user in question" isn't ravaging or hijacking articles since replacing pseudo-history with accurate facts from mainstream/specialist sources is in full agreement with Wikipedia policies (WP:RS, WP:V, WP:FRINGE) that you and Albanian ultranationalists consistently ignore or use whenever they suit you. If anything, the Swedish Wikipedia should be thanking users for removing false biographical information (per WP:BIO) instead of defending unreliable garbage sources like Jacques and "scholars" from the Enver Hoxha regime. And like I told you before, "bringing up the Arvanites and what other editors did years ago is irrelevant to this discussion and the only reason you even bring it up is to justify keeping pseudo-history on the Thomaeus entry." Sadly, your antics Vannucci haven't resulted in any substantial improvements to the Thomaeus entry on the Swedish Wikipedia, which to this day continues to be a worthless trashpit that defends fringe nonsense and directly opposes the consensus among mainstream/specialist scholars regarding the life and career of Thomaeus. Umpire Empire (talk) 13:27, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Albanian origin

Paolo Giovio, a noteworthy Italian historian, in his "Elogii degli uomini illustri" writes: Leonico Tomeo figliuolo d'un Albanese... meaning: Leonicus Thomaeus, son of an Albanian. https://books.google.al/books?id=No-rNCzIvuYC&pg=PA200&dq=%22Leonico+Tomeo%22+%22albanese%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiX1sLxmpP2AhViRPEDHdw0BZoQ6AF6BAgJEAI#v=onepage&q=%22Leonico%20Tomeo%22%20%22albanese%22&f=false

Also Marco Guazzo: https://books.google.al/books?id=3YZPAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA373&dq=%22Leonico+Tomeo%22+%22albanese%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiX1sLxmpP2AhViRPEDHdw0BZoQ6AF6BAgCEAI#v=onepage&q=%22Leonico%20Tomeo%22%20%22albanese%22&f=false

Marco Foscarini: https://books.google.al/books?id=bE4PAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA400&dq=%22Leonico+Tomeo%22+%22albanese%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiX1sLxmpP2AhViRPEDHdw0BZoQ6AF6BAgKEAI#v=onepage&q=%22Leonico%20Tomeo%22%20%22albanese%22&f=false

A modern English bibliography, also on his Albanian origin. https://www.google.al/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=%22Leonico+Tomeo%22+%22Albanian%22

Giorgio Vasari, on his Albanian origin. Probably from Durrës. https://books.google.al/books?id=8bIDAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA402&dq=%22Leonico+Tomeo%22+%22Durazzo%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjUj-6PnpP2AhUkSPEDHSuYCsMQ6AF6BAgCEAI#v=onepage&q=%22Leonico%20Tomeo%22%20%22Durazzo%22&f=false

Edion Petriti (talk) 11:38, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Edit War - Albanian Parentage Sources

@72.90.255.156: Please review the above talk page sections. The parentage of the article subject is well discussed here, and sources are provided for both possibilities. You cannot remove all sources of one possibility just because your favorite source disagrees with them. No source is perfect. Please use this talk page to discuss the source removals you would like to enact rather than reverting the edits of any user that tries to maintain the original page. As it stands you (the mentioned IP) have violated WP:3RR which, while I failed to warn you in time before your 4th revert, I am sure you knew about given your linking of other wikipedia policy pages. Again, please use this page to discuss, not your edit summaries. GabberFlasted (talk) 16:49, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Almost everyone online knows "wikipedia policy pages" GabberFlasted because they've been on the first page of search engine results for over 20 years now. And why are you so worried about WP:3RR when you, Alltan and Hamza Alis Shah have caused it by constantly dismissing WP:BESTSOURCES? But let's not get distracted playing the blame game. What's important is that the policy is clear about what sources get accepted: "When writing about a topic, basing content on the best respected and most authoritative reliable sources helps to prevent bias, undue weight, and other NPOV disagreements."

So the argument against the "Albanian Parentage Sources" is that they do not represent the "best respected and most authoritative reliable sources" on Thomaeus.

• L'Università di Padova: Otto Secoli di Storia. Signum. p. 199. "...per poi trasferirsi a Firenze e quindi a Milano , ed ebbe fra i suoi allievi Niccolò Leonico Tomeo (1456-1531), di padre albanese, che per primo avrebbe letto a Padova la filosofia naturale di Aristotele sul testo greco"

The book L'Università di Padova: 1) focuses on the University of Padua, and 2) has no systematic historical treatment of either Thomaeus or Greek Renaissance scholars in Italy. Also, Signum is not a reputable publishing house and if it is, then it can't hold a candle to Oxford University Press, Toronto University Press, and Princeton University Press.

• Siraisi, Nancy G. (1985). "Antonino Poppi, ed. Scienza e filosofia all'Università di Padova nel Quattrocento. (Centro per la storia dell'Università di Padova.) Padua-Trieste: Edizioni Lint, 1983. 254 pp". Renaissance Quarterly. 38 (2): 309–312. "Leonico Tomeo , d'origine albanese, detto anche Epirota, dal monte Tomarus , scrisse anche i Dialoghi decem (Venetiis 1524) , composti «Academicorum more» di Cicerone , cioè dialoghi di contenuto filosofico e scientifico , in cui..."

Siraisi is not the "best respected and most authoritative reliable source" even though Renaissance Quarterly is a reputable journal. The source is a review of Antonio Poppi's book on science and philosophy at the University of Padua and not a systematic historical treatment of either Thomaeus or Greek Renaissance scholars in Italy.

• The Solar Mystery. An Inquiry Into the Temporal and the Eternal Background of the Rise of Modern Civilization, Oslo, 2003, p. 207. "with the person of Niccolo Leonico Tomeo , that renowned Hellenist who had been constituted professor in Padua. ... Tomeo , although naturalized in Venice , was Albanese by birth..."

The book is by Jeremi Wasiutyński who, according to Google Books, "has noted remarkable connections between 16th century Venetian painting and the secret symbolism underlying Copernicus' revolutionary conceptions, and links these discoveries about the secret hermetic knowledge of the time to situations in science today." Nothing to do with Thomaeus other than a passing and historically unsupported mention. Also, the "International Specialized Book Service Incorporated" is not a reputable publishing house and if it is, then it can't hold a candle to Oxford University Press, Toronto University Press and Princeton University Press.

• Humfrey, P. (2008). The Cambridge Companion to Giovanni Bellini. Cambridge Companions to the History of Art. Cambridge University Press. p. 168. "Just as the Bellini maintained long-term relations with more than one generation of the noble Bembo they did likewise with the latter's plebeian friends, the learned Tomeo, a family of Albanian immigrants renowned for their study of Greek philosophy. The best known member was Niccolò Leonico who was heavily involved with the with the visual arts and whose studiolo style collection was viewed by Marcantonio Michiel in Padua."

Cambridge is an excellent publishing house, but Humfrey is not the "best respected and most authoritative reliable source" on Thomaeus. Humfrey's book is: 1) about art, 2) focused on Giovanni Bellini, 3) has no systematic historical treatment of Thomaeus or Greek Renaissance scholars in Italy.

• Karet, Evelyn. The Antonio II Badile Album of Drawings: The Origins of Collecting Drawings in Early Modern Northern Italy. Ashgate Publishing, Ltd. 2004, p. 122. "The collection of Albanian philosopher and Greek scholar Niccolò Leonico Tomeo..."

Ashgate is a decent publishing house, but Karet is not the "best respected and most authoritative reliable source" on Thomaeus. Karet's book is: 1) about collecting drawings, and 2) has no systematic historical treatment of Thomaeus or Greek Renaissance scholars in Italy.

TL;DR. The "Albanian Parentage Sources" can't stay because they are not the "best respected and most authoritative reliable source" on Thomaeus. The only source that meets the WP:BESTSOURCES policy so far is Geanakoplos' "The Career of the Little-known Renaissance Greek Scholar Nicholas Leonicus Tomaeus and the Ascendancy of Greco-Byzantine Aristotelianism at Padua University (1497)". Geanakoplos is a very well-respected historian and his scholarship is: 1) published in the very reputable historical journal Byzantina, and 2) has a systematic historical treatment of Thomaeus. The sources by Runciman, Copenhaver and Schmidt, Ossa-Richardson, Bietenholz and Deutscher, and Parkinson can stay but only because they coincide with Geanakoplos who is the standard as far as "wikipedia policy pages" care. And as an added bonus, putting the "Albanian Parentage Sources" on the same footing as Geanakoplos violates WP:FALSEBALANCE too. Your move sheriff. 72.90.175.221 (talk) 20:54, 29 June 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.105.171.18 (talk)

Done. 72.90.245.75 (talk) 18:37, 21 December 2022 (UTC)