Talk:Murder of Felicia Gayle

Requested move 25 September 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. There is no clear consensus for the proposed move with little support for it as proposed and strong opposition against it. Two alternatives were voiced during the discussion brought up by some opposers of either a rename of this article itself to "Execution of Marcellus Williams" or a split of this article in two, but no clear consensus between them is apparent after two weeks of the discussion. This no consensus closure does not preclude a separate follow up move discussion to change the title and the focus of the article, or a follow up split proposal to split the article. As it appears unclear and a roughly 50/50 split between the proposed alternatives, it may be appropriate to hold a local RfC to gauge which direction the community of editors lean if a follow up is warranted. (closed by non-admin page mover) Raladic (talk) 02:06, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

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Murder of Felicia Gayle → Murder of Felicia Gayle and execution of Marcellus Williams – This article now contains more content sbout the execution of Marcellus Williams than the murder of Felicia Gayle. There are two victims here, Gayle and Williams; one most likely murdered by persons unknown, and the other a victim of unjust judicial killing, as criminal conviction requires proof beyond reasonable doubt. However, both topics are inextricably linked, precluding a split. For that reason, it needs to be renamed to cover both topics. — The Anome (talk) 13:06, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Disagree. Williams was found guilty of murder and was executed. Your personal opinion on Williams conviction on being incorrect and that his execution was an "unjust judicial killing" doesn't warrant changing the name of this entry. Suggest creating a page about 'The execution of Marcellus Williams' if you desire a more in depth coverage of his execution. Bringjustthefactsplease (talk) 14:05, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Support for the reason I have stated above: the execution of Williams has received significant coverage, and the majority of the article is now about it. Cortador (talk) 14:20, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose: I think Williams has received enough coverage to have a standalone article. I already made a draft at Draft:Marcellus Williams

(Discuss 0nshore's contributions!!!) 15:17, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Strong Oppose Wikipedia is not a place to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Williams killed this woman. The courts and their associated trial repeatedly agreed with this. Buffs (talk) 15:23, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose: While the death of Felicia Gayle and Marcellus Williams’ subsequent execution are related, media coverage has already started focusing on the execution. If there is consensus that the execution meats notability guidelines, it should be covered in its own article rather than being expanded on here. Keep this article about the title, Felicia Gayle’s murder. Cascadiaunity (talk) 15:41, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose This is way too lengthy of a title, and I think these two should be seperate. One article for the murder, the other for the execution.

And I mean, when it comes to the execution, right above you can see that 0nshore already has a draft for it.

Also "and the other a victim of unjust judicial killing, as criminal conviction requires proof beyond reasonable doubt." I personally don't think he was guilty either, although this isn't the place to voice your opinions, neutrality has to be preserved, and this addition to your proposed name change is incredibly useless. Setergh (talk) 16:17, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Agree. The proposed "Murder of Felicia Gayle and execution of Marcellus Williams" is such a needlessly clunky title, and the only reason for it is NPOV violating activism Randomuser335S (talk) 18:12, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Comment, with support The execution of Williams has received significant coverage and as stated by User:Cortador, a significant part of the article is about the execution itself and the controversy leading up to it. I don't think it matters at all whether he is guilty or innocent, and that should not be considered when trying to expand the title or make a new article. This is not a matter of opinion on the killing itself. I think it's significant to warrant either its own page or expanding the name of the article to include Williams' execution. Mannytool (talk) 17:25, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Mentioning the name of a murderer alongside his victim in the title of an article is despicable. 83.27.239.76 (talk) 17:28, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

This is an purely emotional response. Not based on any Wikipedia guidelines. TheXuitts (talk) 18:23, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

@TheXuitts WP:POL disagrees. Specifically, Technically, the policy and guideline pages are not the policy and guidelines in and of themselves. The actual policies and guidelines are behaviors practiced by most editors. The behavior most commonly practiced with regard to murders and perpetrators of violence is not to feature their name in the title of the article but instead to name the victim and/or the place of the attack. I would be surprised if this proposal succeeds without significant consensus to step outside this norm. Kcmastrpc (talk) 13:09, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Support, clunky title or not, the execution has received as much if not more attention than the murder, and at the same time it wouldn't make sense to split it into two articles. TheXuitts (talk) 18:24, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

You bring up good points, but I personally think it would be best for efficiency's sake if one or the other was selected for the title. I've never seen a wikipedia article using that sort of format title on a death penalty case, and there's a reason for that. Randomuser335S (talk) 18:30, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Support Oppose, change to "Execution of Marcellus Williams" Other replies talking about "righting wrongs", or being upset at a "murderer being included in the title" are emotionally charged and irrelevant. The content of the article is primarily about Williams, and Williams' execution has received equal if not more attention in the media. It is an accurate representation. I would hazard a guess that most people will be googling "Marcellus Williams execution" rather than "Felicia Gayle murder". Horep (talk) 18:34, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Very true, but I would argue to simply change the article's title to "Execution of Marcellus Williams" in that case. With any other article pertaining to death penalty cases, it's either "murder of [insert victim's name]" or "execution of [insert offender's name]." Combining both is very clumsy and inefficient, and leaves for a very exhausting title to read. Randomuser335S (talk) 18:40, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

I could get behind changing it to "Execution of Marcellus Williams". This page was created in 2017, at a point where the controversy of the sentence was well under way. TheXuitts (talk) 18:44, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

I would also support a change to "Execution of Marcellus Williams", but as the article is currently written I think the title would fit. Horep (talk) 18:46, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose: Overly long and stupid title. No other article is styled that way. Also WP:RECENTISM needs to be taken into account. Inexpiable (talk) 19:47, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Per WP:RECENTISM, a question worth answering: Is Felicia Gayle's murder inherently notable without Marcellus' Williams, his execution, and controversial conviction? Horep (talk) 19:59, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

I was going to say the same thing (you literally responded a few seconds before me haha). ⇒ Zhing-Za, they/them, 20:02, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

I stand by my decision to oppose, but if it is to be changed then it should just be renamed to Marcellus Williams. Not that ridiculously long and clunky name title as suggested in the proposal. Inexpiable (talk) 20:10, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

What about the simpler Felicia Gayle and Marcellus Williams? ⇒ Zhing-Za, they/them, 20:12, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

@Zhing'za zï Ïnin: Because that's also an odd title. Those types of titles are usually used for articles on criminal duos typically, or for people who are related in some way, such as through marriage or if they are siblings. I don't think any article on Wikipedia exists that lists the victim's name followed by "and (Killer's name)", it would imply the two were a criminal pair or related in some way which is obviously not the case. Inexpiable (talk) 21:12, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose Move - Support split.Support move to Execution of Marcellus Williams. Isn't a simple solution just to have an Execution of Marcellus Williams and a Murder of Felicia Gayle article? If both topics meet WP:GNG, why not both? NickCT (talk) 19:54, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

• After a quick glance at the sources, it's clear the trial and punishment of Marcellus Williams is sadly more notable than the murder of his supposed victim. It's clear to me the execution is notable. It's not clear to me that the murder is. NickCT (talk) 20:01, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Support, though I would like to note that I prefer the simplified title Felicia Gayle and Marcellus Williams. ⇒ Zhing-Za, they/them, 19:58, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. I don't see any precedent for this sort of title, and it definitely comes off as confusing. No objection to a split. 162 etc. (talk) 20:23, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose The proposed title would be ambiguous and overly broad. Redirect is fine. Kcmastrpc (talk) 23:08, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose It could be changed into “Execution of Marcellus Williams” instead (as that’s what people are searching up anyway). The proposed title is too long. Astraeides (talk) 00:23, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Strong oppose. Not typically how these articles are written and the rationale here isn't strong enough to break the styling used on every other page. Would be unwieldy also. The execution is a subtopic of the murder, preferable to start it with that. PARAKANYAA (talk) 11:10, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Strong oppose. "most likely murdered by persons unknown" and "unjust judicial killing" are purely your opinions Aleral Wei (talk) 04:41, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Definitely and absolutely a Oppose for me, because it is suffice to use the title “Murder of Felicia Gayle” and the execution of Williams is not a standalone event, but rather a single transaction of events starting from the murder to the ultimate conclusion of the case with his death sentence carried out. I also agree with the points of those who voted oppose in the discussion. NelsonLee20042020 (talk) 13:50, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. The title is clunky and other articles doesn’t have names like this. Paige Matheson (talk) 18:01, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Comment, the notability here obviously comes from Williams, I think the title should be changed from about Gayle to about Williams. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cereally8 (talk • contribs) 19:40, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose the support arguments are WP:RGW attempts, "a victim of unjust judicial killing" is wildly POV. The suggestion that the execution has more recent coverage/attention is recentism. Walsh90210 (talk) 22:11, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. The murder itself is the clear main topic. Everything else happened because of the murder. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:51, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose any name change. A split of the content about the execution of Williams seems more appropriate. Natg 19 (talk) 00:05, 5 October 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose: First proposed name is needlessly complicated, while the second is unclear and inadvertently lends the impression of a partnership. The execution is a result of the murder, which is the primary subject here. If needed, the former topic may be split off into its own article. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 23:32, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Re-organization of sections

I think the way sections are currently organized in inconsistent with other articles on murders and is leading to information about different subjects covered in the article being put in the wrong sections. The article could be reorganized with these sections:

• 1 Murder
  • 1.1 Victim
  • 1.2 Accused
• 2 Investigation and trial
• 3 Death penalty and appeals
  • 3.1 Initial sentencing
  • 3.2 2017 execution stay
  • 3.3 2024 motion to vacate
  • 3.4 Scheduled execution and hearing
  • 3.5 Alford plea and final appeals
• 6 Execution of Williams
  • 6.1 Reaction
• 7 See also
• 8 References

If you have any other ideas that would work better that would be appreciated. Gideonrmt (talk) 17:13, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Use of the word "accused" as a section heading

@PARAKANYAA the meaning of the word "accused" is "to charge with an offense judicially or by a public process"[1]. The meaning of the word "perpetrator" is "A person who perpetrates something, esp. a crime or evil…" [2]. I think it is better to use the word "Accused" for the section heading about Williams because he was accused. Most reliable sources that reported on the topic of this article have said that Williams might not have committed the murder (e.g. [3][4][5][6]). If Williams was innocent he would not have been the perpetrator so calling him the perpetrator in Wikipedia's voice would not align with most sources. In the case of the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr., most reliable sources report that James Earl Ray did assassinate Martin Luther King Jr..

Edit I am talking about: [7] Gideonrmt (talk) 17:36, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

He was criminally convicted as the perpetrator. Him being labeled “the accused” carries the connotation that he was not actually convicted of the crime. I’m open to changing it to something other than perpetrator but “accused” implies that he was not convicted, whether he did it or not. PARAKANYAA (talk) 17:59, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

What about "Convicted"? Gideonrmt (talk) 19:33, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Also sorry if I was being a little unreasonable. I do see your point now and I think "accused" could be confusing. However, "perpetrator" could also be confusing. Thanks for explaining! Gideonrmt (talk) 19:38, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Convicted I have less issue with. Just not "accused". PARAKANYAA (talk) 19:44, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

@Kcmastrpc Most RS describe Marcellus Williams as "convicted in the 1998 killing of Lisha Gayle"[8] and seemingly intentionally do not refer to Williams as the perpetrator. Therefore, calling Williams "perpetrator" in wiki voice is WP:POV. Can you think of a different name for the section? Gideonrmt (talk) 15:07, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

I looked at a number of other "Murder of ..." articles and I couldn't find any that use "Convicted" or "Perpetrator" as a subheading. Most of them just name the individual who was found guilty under a background section, eg (Background > John Doe). I believe it's appropriate to just follow that approach and we don't try to tie transitive verbs as section headings. Kcmastrpc (talk) 15:56, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree. Just for clarification would reorganizing the sections to look like this work?

• 1 Background
• 1.1 Felicia Gayle
• 1.2 Marcellus Williams

Gideonrmt (talk) 18:51, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Yea, I think that'd work. Thank you! Kcmastrpc (talk) 19:19, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Innappropriate lead image

The lead image seems like it is inappropriate for the article, especially since the event in focus is much later in Gayle's life. Especially considering the biases being discussed in public right now, and that we are using a non-free image, it would be far more appropriate to have a picture when she was working as reporter (the subject matter). 22:19, 7 October 2024 (UTC) Sadads (talk) 22:19, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

There are very few images of her later in life relative to the ones of her younger. There is at least one, but I forgot where I saw it, but most are from substantially prior to her death - and iirc she doesn't really look that different. It could probably be replaced with a later image but first we would have to find one from a verifiable origin and then confirm that it was in fact from later on. PARAKANYAA (talk) 19:47, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

I added a later one. The quality is worse and I have no idea when it's from but she certainly looks older, so... PARAKANYAA (talk) 02:30, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Hello! I also found a good resolution image of Gayle here. (I couldn't find the date and whether this image was "recent" to her death or is an old image of her.) However, it could be a good image candidate because of the quality and that Gayle in the image there looks more or less at the time of her death. I don't know what you think? Here: https://www.themirror.com/news/us-news/breaking-death-row-killer-marcellus-711655

Here I found the same image in an article from The Times with better quality. But it is an article that you have to "pay" to see: https://www.thetimes.com/world/us-world/article/convicted-killer-avoids-death-penalty-with-plea-deal-for-life-in-jail-knbswhxg0 PuzzleSolved999 (talk) 01:05, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

@PuzzleSolved999 To me she looks younger in that, so I'd bet it's further from the date. But we have no dates for these photos. PARAKANYAA (talk) 05:52, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 12 October 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Reading Beans, Duke of Rivia 20:15, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

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Murder of Felicia Gayle → Execution of Marcellus Williams – I think it is clear, judging by the sources used in the article already, that the only notable component of Felicia Gayle's murder is that the accused, Marcellus Williams, was convicted and executed despite indications to his innocence. If there was no doubt to Williams' guilt, this article would not exist, making an article split inappropriate. Furthermore, I do not think titling it just "Marcellus Williams" makes sense either, as we are not writing about the man, but the process of conviction, the repeated execution stays, and the actual execution. Horep (talk) 15:50, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose Redundant. WP:RGW. This is a waste of editor's time @Horep. Please close this as only a few days ago a similar proposal was closed with no consensus, and the only editors who were in support of renaming to Execution of Marcellus Williams were also in support of the previous proposal. I don't see how anything has changed in the past three days. Kcmastrpc (talk) 18:41, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

  I was basing this request to move off of WP:NOTCURRENTTITLE, specifically that "As this result does not indicate a consensus for the chosen title, anyone who objects to the closer's decision may make another move request at any time, and is advised to create such a request instead of taking the closure to move review." I do think most people would agree that the current title isn't appropriate, with people either wanting to split the article up, or rename it to something about Marcellus Williams. Horep (talk) 08:11, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. The execution is as a result of the murder; furthermore, the execution has only received a burst of coverage when it happened, while the murder more so fulfills WP:NEVENT. Also, no - this article is seven years old! This case had interest beyond just Williams. Speedy close due to the fact this was considered and rejected along with the last proposal. People keep saying that Williams is the only notable aspect of this, basing their judgement purely on the last month’s paper coverage. Yes, of course that is what the recent news will focus on. PARAKANYAA (talk) 20:58, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose We've already been through this. Editor is just unhappy with the result and trying again, swiftly close please. Inexpiable (talk) 08:31, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose This discussion seems to have already taken place. MisterWat3rm3l0n (talk) 22:07, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. The move above was rejected and there is no need to rehash an already resolved argument. Dashing24 (talk) 11:38, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. Per PARAKANYAA. Srnec (talk) 02:16, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. The most "notable component of Felicia Gayle's murder" is a woman's murder! Everything else happened because of that. This was only decided a few days ago. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:39, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

@Horep: - Darn. I'm sorry I missed this discussion. The would have been a good move. Folks complaining that this move was considered recently were wrong. The move recently considered above was not to "Execution of Marcellus Williams". This move proposal was basically a different move. NickCT (talk) 16:36, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, but it was discussed as a proposal in that move, and also shot down. PARAKANYAA (talk) 09:21, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

When you say "shot down" the closer actually proposed a follow-up RfC for that move, right? So the closer clearly thought the move might be viable in a follow-up RfC. Who was the move "shot down" by? NickCT (talk) 18:59, 5 November 2024 (UTC)