Jump to content

Talk:Mid-Atlantic accent/Archive 3

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3


Mid-Atlantic accent and gender double standard in movies + better examples of the accent

1. Having watched probably thousands of movies from the 30s and early 40s, I've often noticed a double standard concerning gender and the M-A accent. Full-blooded linguistic "Americanism" was much more readily heard (and presumably accepted) from male characters, and when "cultivation" was required from a man, the studios often simply hired a British actor like Ronald Colman, Flynn (Tasmanian I know, but an Englishman as perceived by the American public), Olivier, Leslie Howard, Claude Rains, George Brent, C. Aubrey Smith, Herbert Marshall etc. I suppose that even in the 30s the public felt that "cultivation" was a rather effeminate quality to be found in an American man, and so we find most of the very biggest American male stars of the 30s and early 40s DID NOT use the M-A accent--Gable, Cagney, Bogart, Cooper, Tracy, Stewart--and those top box office men that did use it tended to use a milder form (e.g. Robert Taylor) than the women. Conversely we find that almost all of the biggest female stars of the same period did indeed use the M-A accent to some degree--Davis, Crawford, Colbert, Shearer, Loy etc. Are there exceptions? Most certainly, but you can't have exceptions without a pattern. In a man, an "everyday American" accent could be seen as straightforward, rugged, virile, down to earth. In a woman, the same accent was considered boorish, unladylike, and fit for the gutter (think Barbara Stanwyck or Joan Blondell). A male character with such an accent might be the hero of a grand adventure, as indeed Gable was in picture after picture; whereas a woman with same accent would probably be a streetwalker, barmaid, or trashy chorus girl.

The more movies I see from this period, the more I notice how gendered the M-A accent was. It was a way to signal to audiences that an American woman was a "lady" despite her unfortunate nationality, and therefore worthy of respect, courtesy, and sympathy that ordinary American women didn't merit. On the other hand a man could be a linguistic boor and "get away with it" (or even be applauded for his boorishness as a charming rogue) much more easily--what else is new? Perhaps this issue of gender discrepancies--with further research and sourcing of course--could merit a sentence or two in the article.

2. It seems to me that the movie actors listed should typify this accent in its strongest form. Those who cite Tyrone Power as having used M-A are perhaps insufficiently familiar with the range of speech patterns and accents present in the movies of that vintage. By the elocutionary standards of the 1930s and 40s Tyrone Power did not use a markedly M-A accent, although his speech might be considered mildly cultivated to today's ear. He consistently pronounces his r's at the ends of words, and thereby fails the shibboleth of M-A. Vincent Price's M-A accent was likewise quite mild most of the time.

Orson Welles is a much better example (perhaps the quintessential one, along with John Barrymore), as are William Powell, Fredric March, Warner Baxter, and Warren William. Among women I'd point to Claudette Colbert as perhaps the most famous textbook example besides Bette Davis; also Rosalind Russell, Kay Francis (despite her speech impediment) Paulette Goddard, Margaret Sullavan (an aristocratic southern accent but clearly approximated to M-A), Irene Dunne (likewise a southern accent with cultivated M-A theatricality), Miriam Hopkins (another southerner), the De Havilland sisters (British-Americans), Margaret Lindsay (textbook example), Carole Lombard (her M-A comes and goes depending on the "elevation" of the scene). Mind you, some of these actors who lived into later decades did begin to modify their speech slightly as M-A became less fashionable after WW II. In Fredric March's early roles he practically impersonates John Barrymore, whereas in old age his accent had lost much of its English theatricality.

3. The theory that the Mid-Atlantic accent has something to do with primitive recording technology is bunk. The desire of educated Americans to sound like English gentlemen (or some approximation thereof) is a cultural phenomenon that goes back long before any recording technology. In the 19th century the greatest compliment a Bostonian could receive while travelling abroad was to be taken for an Englishman. From 'Misinforming a Nation' 1917: The American actor, in order to gain distinction, apes the dress, customs, intonation and accent of Englishmen. His great ambition is to be mistaken for a Londoner. This pose, however, is not all snobbery: it is the outcome of an earnest desire to appear superior; and so long has England insisted upon her superiority that many Americans have come to adopt it as a cultural fetish. T. S. Eliot anyone?

4. It's equally ridiculous to write that this accent was most fashionable in the 30s and 40s. Yes, it was more frequently recorded then, but that's because talkies had only just been invented, which is how most modern persons come across this accent. If anything it had never been LESS popular. Anglophile accents had been (very) slowly going out of style since WW I.

5. Finally, I'd emphasize that the Mid-Atlantic accent never aimed at sounding "British" (whatever that means) or even "English", but something much more specific: the upper classes of London and the classically trained actors of the London stage. These are the only "British" accents concerned with this phenomenon. 2606:A000:8948:A100:C47A:B67B:A8D0:E7ED (talk) 06:25, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

  1. A fascinating theory. Can you find sources (either already used in the article or on your own) that confirm any of this?
  2. Feel free to remove examples that are not well-sourced or add examples that are. Also, feel free to qualify any example speakers as you so usefully do above, but using sources.
  3. You give one source that suggests it could be bunk. The Wikipedia page give ones source that suggests it isn't. Now what?
  4. This seems a reasonable notion. Do you have any sources to support it?
  5. How do you know this about Anglo accents and WWI?
  6. Right. I think this is assumed, though feel free to clarify in the article.
Wolfdog (talk) 23:06, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

"Consciously Acquired Accent"

What about persons who grew up hearing this accent because their parents or grandparents consciously "acquired" it generations back? If this is what one hears spoken in one's childhood home, then there's nothing "consciously acquired" about it. The article seems to assume that every family's linguistic memory was wiped with each new generation and that the Mid-Atlantic accent had to be relearnt from the ground up. It would have us believe that, for some arbitrary reason, the Mid-Atlantic accent absolutely cannot be passed from one generation to the next, even if every member of the family spoke in this manner. The fact that the Mid-Atlantic accent has artificial and affected origins need not mean that everyone using it is necessarily affecting it. 2606:A000:8948:A100:8DB7:F8B6:2A4B:4A2 (talk) 05:08, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

Proposed move to Transatlantic accent

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. The present title follows common usage and a hatnote can provide sufficient disambiguation. (non-admin closure) Cwmhiraeth (talk) 13:34, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Mid-Atlantic accent → Transatlantic accent – The vast majority of the sources refer to the accent primarily as the "Transatlantic accent". This is unsurprising, as "transatlantic", meaning across or concerning both sides of the Atlantic, makes far more sense than "Mid-Atlantic" and is far less ambiguous. As the term "Mid-Atlantic", at least in North America, is used more frequently to refer to the Mid-Atlantic United States, the current title creates unnecessary confusion, especially considering that there already exists an American English accent and dialect in the Mid-Atlantic United States referred to as the "Mid-Atlantic dialect". Thankfully, "Transatlantic accent" exists as a synonymous and far more prevalently used nomenclature for the accent discussed in this article and should be used as the primary title of the article. Madreterra (talk) 14:23, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

  • Support: As you can see above, we have had this same discussion three times under the following titles: Requested move 5 December 2015; Requested move 13 September 2016; Requested move 21 February 2017. Each time I've led and/or supported the move and I will again. "Transatlantic" is common/prevalent (see Google search hits) and unambiguous (unlike "Mid-Atlantic" which is susceptible to being confused with Mid-Atlantic American English whose coiner, William Labov, never even called it so much as all that, instead simply labeling it "the Mid-Atlantic dialect"). You can see more about my views under the previous discussions. Wolfdog (talk) 14:45, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Procedural oppose and speedy close: As you can see above, we have had this same discussion three times. The conclusion in the last discussion was "that this one should be left alone unless overwhelming evidence to the contrary surfaces". There is no change in the situation, so this should be left alone. The proponent didn't even provide a rationale. This seems like it is just digging up an old disagreement for the sake of encouraging further argument. —BarrelProof (talk) 17:31, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose Seriously? It's called the Mid-Atlantic accent. There's no other COMMONNAME for it... Kingsif (talk) 02:25, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Support per Madreterra and Wolfdog. Just as an aside, I had some teachers who spoke with what sounded to my ears like the Transatlantic accent I heard in old movies, but with a Southern lilt, if such a thing is possible. Carlstak (talk) 05:55, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose I have never in my life heard anyone use the term "Transatlantic accent". Wikipedia is a medium for presenting established information, not for generating new ideas. I have once heard this accent referred to as the Delawarean Accent. The only other common name is "Mid-Atlantic accent". 111818b (talk) 16:52, 14 December 2019 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Re: Move to Transatlantic accent

Ironically, it seems as though one of the editors that voted "oppose" in the above page move proposal actually thought that this was an article about the Mid-Atlantic American dialect, noting that he "once heard this accent referred to as the Delawarean Accent". This is clearly a reference to the Mid-Atlantic American accent, and this editor's understandable confusion only further demonstrates the need to re-titled this page by moving it from the unnecessarily confusing "Mid-Atlantic accent" to the more commonly sourced "Transatlantic accent." It is laughably ludicrous that a page move proposed in part to avoid confusion over a similarly named dialect was thwarted because editors voting "oppose" are themselves confused and believe this article is referring to Mid-Atlantic American English. You see what I mean, right? Ultimately, however, the proposal was also based on the sources, the majority of which refer to the "Transatlantic accent." Madreterra (talk) 19:01, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

I've heard the term "transatlantic accent" all my life. To suggest that its existence constitutes anything other than "established information" is silly. Anyone who has ever read about old movies or stage history for more than fifteen minutes will have come across discussions of the transatlantic accent. I have never heard anyone say mid-Atlantic accent without meaning the transatlantic accent. In my experience they are synonyms, and it would be absurd to use mid-Atlantic accent (in the singular) to mean anything else since no single accent clearly predominates in the mid-Atlantic states, that region having dozens of widely diverging dialects that scarcely resemble each other at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2606:A000:8948:A100:A0DA:E028:6EC2:385D (talk) 06:41, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

The article could use map and perhaps some other ornamentation

I have skimmed through the article and it seems to be comprehensively written. It could use a map showing where the Midatlandic dialectbis spoken. Spannerjam (talk) 11:20, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Lack of neutrality

The whole article seems to lionize the unsubstantiated thesis by Dudley Knight (who was a vocal coach and NOT a linguist) as the voice of God without any critical assessment. Are we to believe that William Tilly traveled back in time to the 1830's-40's to teach presidents Cleveland and McKinley his Mid-Atlantic speech? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.158.24.144 (talk) 19:02, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Please provide better sources. I've been seeking them for ages. Wolfdog (talk) 01:43, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

American characteristics

According to the article, this accent is a mixture of both American and British characteristics. However, almost all the features listed in the Phonology section are featues from RP. Where are the American characteristics? It feels like the article is written from the American perspective and focused on features that are not American. I'd like to read more about the American characteristics. Betty (talk) 00:23, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Diagrams ?

Hello everyone,

I was wondering if anyone could provide any vowel diagrams for the Mid-Atlantic diphthongs please ? I couldn't find any.

Thanks :) YanisBourgeois (talk) 23:44, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

I created the diagrams for the Mid-Atlantic vowels as pronounced by Franklin D. Roosevelt, but his version of it was somewhat different from the theoretical version of the accent, does someone have the acoustic data of a perfect Mid-Atlantic speaker ? YanisBourgeois (talk) 11:55, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

The British pattern

I read this article yesterday, and I didn't understand whether this accent was chiefly British or American. I read the chapter in Robert MacNeil's book, and, according to Robert MacNeil, this accent was "the British pattern".

I read the description of MacNeil, and I cannot but agree with him. In a word, gentlemen, do you have an opportunity to write about the Britishness of the above-mentioned accent in the article? Роман Сергеевич Сидоров (talk) 11:38, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Moved from User talk:Wolfdog § The Mid-Atlantic Accent and Its Base
 – Wolfdog (talk) 12:16, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

I read the article which deals with this accent, and, accordingly, I didn't understand whether this accent was chiefly British or American. Listening to Katherine Hepburn convinced me that this accent was predominantly British, to say nothing of Billie Burke. I'm a novice in phonetics, so could you help me with answering this question? Роман Сергеевич Сидоров (talk) 07:48, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi, I'm not entirely clear what your question means. I think you're asking whether the accent is phonetically more American or British. Is that right? It's a blend of both, but the exact degree to which is more influencing is somewhat subjective and entails understanding various complexities. Maybe you can specify a bit more exactly what you're looking for. Wolfdog (talk) 12:06, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
Thank you very much indeed. I really appreciate your answer. However, do you know a Wikipedian who can answer my question, citing various sources and stuff? By the way, you understand my question correctly. My English is rather complicated, though.
However, I don't know whether my question is apposite or not, to be honest.Роман Сергеевич Сидоров (talk) 18:01, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
Apposite to what? Some more General American elements of the Mid-Atlantic accent include L velarization, a back GOAT vowel, and a lack of intrusive R; some more RP (British) elements include a long monophthongal THOUGHT vowel, a lack of pre-nasal TRAP tensing, and a lack of HAPPY tensing. There are also elements that are arguably distinct from both General American and RP, including a unique PALM-START distinction and a lack of the wine-whine merger. Furthermore, there are many features that, while seemingly RP (rather than General American), are also shared with Eastern New England or even New York City of the time: a lack of vowel mergers before /r/, a PALM-LOT distinction, the articulation of BATH as an open fronted [a], and non-rhoticity. (All these features are already mentioned on the page.) So you can see that it is quite difficult to call the accent chiefly British or American. It sounds wannabe-British (or perhaps upper-class old-timey Northeastern American) to American ears and utterly American to British ears. Wolfdog (talk) 22:21, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
I read the description of vowels and consonants in the article. I appreciate your answer, but, first of all, I didn't find the opinion of Britishers who suppose this accent to be quite American. I read the book written by Robert MacNeil who called this accent "the British pattern (p. 51). Secondly, it is rather important that you should prove that L-velarization was a part and parcel of this accent, for, according to the rules of Wikipedia, it's vitally important that the members of Wikipedia should prove their judgements with secondary sources, so to speak.
It would appear that our knowledge of this accent is pretty small and insignificant, just because Fletcher's book Labov's atlas are not so accessible. I tried to find these sources in order to broaden my knowledge, but my attempt to find them was totally abortive.Роман Сергеевич Сидоров (talk) 07:46, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
As for the article itself, I suppose the article on Transatlantic accent not to be complete, and correct. It's really hard to understand the core components of this accent. By the way, Alexei Ababilov, my Russian acquaintance read about this accent, and, according to his opinion, this accent is British, in the main: there are seven criteria, in accordance with Ababilov's opinion: non-rhotic, no flapping, almost no yod-dropping, father-bother distinction, no lot-cloth split, no æ-raising, trap-bath split. It's highly important not to deny the importance of Ababilov's opinion, for this gentleman is certain to be more or less well-versed in terms of British, and American accents. I'm going to ask hime whether he has an opportunity to prove his opinion with a liable source, and I sincerely hope that I'll have an opportunity to furnish this would-be source in our chat.Роман Сергеевич Сидоров (talk) 11:04, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
I'm still not sure precisely what you're looking for, but I'll point out the following. Of your seven criteria, four or five of them are also features of modern Eastern New England English and as many as all of them are potentially features of conservative (19th-century) Eastern New England English. So, this makes it further hard to be certain what we're looking at are British features rather than simply conservative American features. Wolfdog (talk) 12:24, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
I'm going to explain what I'm looking for. First of all, the English language of "Tory" cities was rather close to RP because of close cultural, economical ties in the nineteenth century. Secondly, "American" means "General American" in my sentences. British - RP. It's blatantly obvious that there are very many accents in Britain and the US, and sometimes they're terribly different from one other. Between you and me, some of your countrymen cannot differ Australians from Russians in a set of contexts.
It is probable that the term "Transatlantic accent" is rather pseudo-scientific, Only to think, Bullie Burke's speech in Dinner at Eight is rather close to the most Conservative form of RP, and, accordingly, the so-called Transatlantic accent of K. Hepburn, Cary Grant is certain to be different from that of Billie Burke. By the by, I haven't noticed L velarazation in Great Kates's speech, in the speech of Cary Grant. May be, I'm just deaf. It's evident that the speech of Mike Connor (Sorry. I forgot the name of actor. Very sorry) is full of dark Ls, and I don't know why they are not audible in Hepburn's speech. Could you help me with dealing with L velarization?
All in all, I appreciate your rather professional criticism. Alexei Ababilov is likely to be busy right now.Роман Сергеевич Сидоров (talk) 13:12, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
It seems your main concern / question is about L velarization. It may be variable. I certainly hear it in the speech of Sylvia Plath and Franklin Roosevelt (the audio on the page itself -- listen especially to how he says "belief"). I'm not sure who Mike Connor or your friend Alexei are. (I also think flapping may be variable in the accent, though conscious speakers likely aimed to avoid it.) Best of luck. Wolfdog (talk) 20:45, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
(See if you think these gentlemen have a British or American accent. Wolfdog (talk) 21:27, 24 October 2022 (UTC))
First of all, Alexei Ababilov is a well-educated and learned person, and he isn't accustomed to playing with toys and bagatelles, therefore you should consider the opinion of this learned person to be a liable source. Alexei Ababilov is rather good at acoustic phonetics. He's sure to be a very good teacher of phonetic, in my estimation, so you shouldn't deny the importance of his opinion, in conformity with my current viewpoint.Роман Сергеевич Сидоров (talk) 17:49, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
Secondly, you're certain to have been denying the importance my first questions concerning the basis of Transatlantic accent. According to one of liable sources (see above), this accent was almost totally British, but I didn't add this piece of information, for I suppose this viewpoint to be a bit dubious.Роман Сергеевич Сидоров (talk) 18:00, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Great Kate's English

I suggest that the Wikipedians should describe and discuss Kate Hepburn's English in a scientific and dispassionate spirit. First of all, I'm interested in the Mid-Atlantic accent, and, accordingly, I must ask the chief editors and creators of this article whether it's possible to find the transcripts of Philadelphia Story and stuff. As a reader, I suggest that the public of English Wikipedia should improve this article, for the description of this accent is sure to be rather incomplete, in my estimation. Роман Сергеевич Сидоров (talk) 13:03, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

I suggest that W. P. Uzer, Rutterfinger, Aeusoes1, User-duck, Peter Roach, Emeritus Professor of Phonetics at the University of Reading, UK, Wolfdog, Nardog, EgressiveClick, Caeruleum1, Electricmaster, DocWatson42, Vaticidalprophet should describe and discuss their opinions in a scientific and dispassionate spirit. I suggest that the above-mentioned users should write an article on the pronunciation of Katherine Hepburn and Cary Grant and furnish a list of liable sources, including the most voluminous scientific books and theses doctorales concerning the aforementioned problem.
I prefer learning English with watching old Hollywood movies, but I don't know whether it's possible to pick up basically British pronunciation with watching them. I'm just trying to say that I have a right to read about the Transatlantic accent, and accordingly, I would like the abovmentioned editors of enwiki to provide the required pieces of information.Роман Сергеевич Сидоров (talk) 18:48, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
I have no interest in this topic. I perform a lot of technical edits, currently CS1 errors and warnings. User-duck (talk) 19:40, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
Wikipedia is a volunteer service. No one "should" write anything. Nardog (talk) 01:14, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
@Роман Сергеевич Сидоров: This is a topic for a discussion Web site, such as Reddit. —DocWatson42 (talk) 09:43, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
I have already asked a set of quiestion in Reddit. I'm talking about the questions concerning Hepburn's accent. None answered, to tell the truth. All in all, I'm sure to be highly malcontent with the article on Transatlantic accent.Роман Сергеевич Сидоров (talk) 12:11, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

FDR's vowels

Hi YanisBourgeois, can you please explain where you're deciding upon the notation use for FDR's vowels. You refer to the Urban (2021) source and I think specifically the chart on p. 238. But how are you inferring the [ɐ] offlglide or the rhoticity of NURSE? (His NURSE certainly is non-rhotic in the phrase "assERT my FIRM belief" from the Fear Itself speech.) Thanks. Wolfdog (talk) 14:30, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Hello Wolfdog, as you can see the SQUARE and FORCE diphthongs have low ending points : the F1 values are lower 600 to 650 approximately. Being open-mid vowels, a [ə] offglide would've implied ending points with a F1 value equal or lower than 600. The reason I use the symbol [ɐ] is to insist on the fact that these diphthongs are realised as opening diphthongs (even though they actually never reach the value [ɐ̯], to be absolutely accurate the symbols <ɛæ̈> and <ɔɒ̟> would be more accurate, but the level of accuracy seems a bit over-the-top). As for the START vowel, the F1 values are 700 to 750, so it's a falling diphthong as well, it seems that the ending point would be somthing like [ɑ̟]. So I decided to express the ending points [æ̈, ɒ̟, ɑ̟,] with one symbol <ɐ> that makes it all more synthetic.
Now when it comes to the NURSE vowel, The chart indicates a vowel very far back (F2=1350) which is weird for a central unrounded vowel, that's why it seemed obvious to me that the low F2 was a consequence of a rhotic realization, but after listening the speech you mentioned I heard [əː~ɜː], so I might have made a mistake for that vowel.
The disagreement we seem to have about the GOOSE and FOOT vowels is probably due to the presence of voiced consonants. Before voiced consonants FDR pronounces them [u̟, ʊ] but before pauses or voiced consonants, their diphthongal nature appears [u̟u, ʊɤ].
Tell me what you think about that, and thank you for your contribution. YanisBourgeois (talk) 15:39, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
The second element of the LOT and THOUGHT vowels seem to disappear before voiced consonants, /r/ sounds and dark /l/ sounds. YanisBourgeois (talk) 15:44, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
Hi, why are you adding Freeman and Jones's pronunciations when we haven't even figured out the FDR matter yet? Do we have credible data/sources on them too, or are you conjecturing? Wolfdog (talk) 18:26, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
I used an articulatory approach to evaluate Freedman and Jones' vowels, not an acoustic one. The reason why I added them is because theroetical aren't enough, and seeing some actors, some probably professionally trained, might be interesting, however they happened to have some inconsistency, particularly Jones. YanisBourgeois (talk) 11:30, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but I think we may have to revert these additions without reliable sources supporting them; otherwise, it's just a lot of your own original research. (Freeman isn't even a fluent user of the accent; he's a voice actor.) Wolfdog (talk) 18:33, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
Some of the "disagreements" you mention above are really about me wanting to go for a broader transcription and you for a narrower one, but we haven't really tested FDR's SQUARE vowel (for example) finally in an open monosyllable versus medially in a closed monosyllable versus in a polysyllabic word etc. So the more usual transcription (of say RP or Transatlantic) [ɛə] would seem to be safer phonetically, without getting too narrow. I really appreciate your intentions (and it certainly can be fun to represent speakers' vowels with phonetic precision), but I worry that the transcriptions will be very open to eternal disputes without sources verbatim providing them. Wolfdog (talk) 18:28, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

BATH vowel according to McLean

In Good American Speech by M. P. McLean, is described as low front unrouded [a] with a certain degree of variation as far as the length is concerned : "Its length varies but it's usually about half long, perhaps because it's usually followed by of voiced consonnant. It is rarely, if ever, fuuly long." It's also asserted that it can take the PALM value : Every sound that contains the sound a may be pronounced with the vowel ɑ(ː) as well" YanisBourgeois (talk) 11:53, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Classical American

@YanisBourgeois: Reiterated from my edit summaries in opposition to your recent reverts: You're including a term, "Classical American," that is otherwise defined nowhere else in the text. I don't see the good of this. What does the term mean exactly and why do you feel it should be included? Wolfdog (talk) 01:17, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

It reprents a form of compromise between General American and Mid-Atlantic English, the latter often judged too British (which nearly an objective truth). The reason why I decided to include it is because it completes a continuum that goes from General Amercian to RP and helps understanding it more solely. YanisBourgeois (talk) 15:16, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
I think it's best to ignore a term that will only add further confusion and only comes from a single source. Furthermore, the only difference between Classical American (or "Classial" as it currently reads) and Mid-Atlantic is length distinctions. Clearly, we're getting into the weeds of phonetics on a chart that is focused on phonemics. Wolfdog (talk) 17:56, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
Go ahead then I won't add it back YanisBourgeois (talk) 11:08, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Also, why have you chosen to use the sole symbol /ɒ/ to represent the Mid-Atlantic CLOTH and LOT vowels, when we have already established in the prose and both /ɒ/ and /ɔ/ are options for CLOTH specifically? Wolfdog (talk) 01:21, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

I agree that some speakers might use the tense THOUGHT vowel for words like CLOTH but it's only a result of mistake or personal liberty on the part of the speakers. So as interesting as it is to mention this variability, a tense open-mid variant for CLOTH shouldn't be included in the Mid-Atlantic Accent. Including a variant into a type of speech because of it's initially "inappropriate" use, only makes sense for a natural accent that, supposedly, evolves over time and along with demographic changes, not for one that was consciously constructed and has been volontarily learnt. YanisBourgeois (talk) 15:30, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
Plus if I include the tense CLOTH variant in the chart, I would have to include the tense LOT variant [ɑː] and the raised pre-nasal TRAP and BATH variants as well. This chart being meant to be extremely synoptic I only mentionned variants that were consensually accepted by both Skinner and McLean, i.e. TRAP [æ], BATH [a], PALM [ɑː], LOT-CLOTH [ɒ] and THOUGHT [ɔː]. That's the reason why I didn't add the variants other than [a] mentionned by McLean in the BATH set. YanisBourgeois (talk) 15:41, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
If we're going to include information in a chart that openly contradicts the prose, we need the actual labels "Skinner and McLean" in the chart then. Or, we could follow my suggestion (still my preference), which is to revert back to the chart matching the prose. Wolfdog (talk) 17:56, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Mid-Atlantic_accent/Archive_3&oldid=1261823648"