Jump to content

Talk:Mid-Atlantic accent/Archive 1

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3

Alan Partridge speaks with a Transatlantic accent

Could anyone source and/or confirm this? I doubt this is correct.89.166.141.235 (talk) 21:49, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Unsatisfying Description

  • Header added 05:23, 9 August 2010 (UTC).

Describing Mid-Atlantic English as some kind of half-American, half-British hybrid is vague and unsatisfying. The term was used to designate a very specific variety of English that is now historically defunct. I have moved the historically specific definition of the term to the top of the article. -Sewing - talk 19:36, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The general description is still unsatisfying, but I'll leave the paragraph order the way I found it (giving prominence to the general description) until I've done more research on the historical definition. -Sewing - talk 19:50, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
You are not satisfied? Everybody together now ready_ ONE TWO THREE - Awwwwwwwwwwe I'm sorry boopsie. We want you to be satisfied unfortunately their definition of a mid-Atlantic is spot on. I don't know whom had said it is now defunct. I wouldn't use that term. It just isn't popular anymore. Griessinthewood (talk) 00:25, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Peter Jennings?

There's a line in the article "Canadian English in some ways approaches this ideal, as was demonstrated by the well-known news anchor Peter Jennings." I'm not an historical linguist, but I'm pretty sure Peter Jennings adopted an American accent, and Canadian sounds nothing like mid-atlantic anyway.

In fact, that whole section called Features, about Canadian and spelling, does not belong here. Should I just delete it?

Aren't we talking about "Main Line Lock Jaw?" This is typical of Philadelphia's main line elite. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.224.27.66 (talk) 05:26, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I'd say. I am a Canadian and I have never seen anyone who would use "colour" use "labor" or vice versa. This seems rather unsourced and completely spurious. I will delete it.GBMorris 01:26, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Need for disambiguation

There's a redirect to this page from "mid-atlantic" that should probably be turned into a disambiguation page. Mid-atlantic also refers to US States along the Atlantic seaboard south of New England and north of the "southeast." (Roughly, from Maryland to New Jersey.) The USGS has a page on these states, if someone wants to write up an article. I'm far too lazy at the moment. User:Exia 11/09/04

Mr. Burns

Would anyone consider Mr. Burns from the Simpsons to have a Mid-Atlantic accent? His accent is intriguing, would it be considered a "posh" or educated North American accent?

I think so. I would also consider Frasier and Niles Crane to have it.

The old Boston Brahmin accent(not obsolete) seems similiar to this accent, which I've never heard of before(I never heard of this category). FDR was from upstate NY, so I considered his dialect Northern New England since my impressions of upstate NY were that it was closer culturally to New England than NYC.

Frasier and Niles do speak in a Mid-Atlantic. My favorite is Major Charles Emerson Winchester III of the TV show MASH.Griessinthewood (talk) 00:32, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Fix it up, if you can

This article goes around in circles and says nothing. Does any-one know what mid-Atlantic English is, and could you please make the article clearer? Thankyou. Felix the Cassowary 07:05, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Former New Jersey Governor Tom Kean?

and also 9/11 Commission Head is also a good example of this accent

He used to be on TV and radio with these ads for NJ tourism --"New Jehsey and you...puhfect togethaa"

The origin of his accent is discussed on the Brian Lehrer radio show from New York public radio wnyc, with William Labov (referenced in this wikipedia article) as a guest.

A link can be found here...

http://www.wnyc.org/shows/bl/episodes/2004/03/25#segment28346

Maybe include this as a footnote to the article? ShmorgelBorgel 17:37, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Possible references

--129.21.179.34 22:43, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Actual examples

Compared to lots of other articles, this one doesn't really give solid examples. It describes well enough what one is from a dictionary standpoint, a dialect of the English language which is neither purely America, British, or Canadian and was used by frequently in the past by many actors, media people, and rich folks. But it doesn't really describe their patterns of speech. So, while one can walk away from this article knowing what Mid-Atlantic English is from a definition standpoint, unless you're really familiar with the actors listed (luckily I am) and with other dialects of English, you don't get a firm understanding of what it would actually sound like in its spoken form. Anyone know enough about it to try and tackle this? If I can find enough about it elsewhere I'll try, but someone out there has to know more about it than I do.Gorovich 06:49, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I think it is important to stress that mid-atlantic is english devoid of any regional inflections (i.e. : "perfect/standard english"). I added some trivia about the fact that many americans who live abroad for a very long time tend to develop this speech pattern. Wedineinheck 12:35, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
It is impossible to be devoid of some regional inflections, such as rhoticity. The article already says Mid-Atlantic English is non rhotic. We need to know whether the BATH lexical set sounds like TRAP or like PALM. Also, if CLOTH sounds like LOT or like TAUGHT. Another (less important feature) to know would be if secretary is /ˈsɛkrəˌtɛri/ or /ˈsɛkrətri/ or something in between (maybe /ˈsɛkrətəri/). Esmito (talk) 23:03, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

More speakers of Mid-Atlantic

These include actor-producer John Houseman, journalist-broadcaster Alistair Cooke, and TV chef-presenter Lloyd Grossman. The former two represent Americanized English, the latter Anglicized American/Canadian.

I'm not an expert here and would not argue with the two examples you have given, otherwise though, in many cases is the natural dialect of parts of New England (Boston in particular) being lablelled "mid-atlantic" simply becasue it sounds more similar to an English accent than other American dialects. I think of Frasier as a good example of an accent and good diction appearing deliberatly anglicized where it is perhaps just the natural accent of a certain group of people in that area ? Dainamo 00:35, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

John Barrowman has stated that his accent is often called Mid-Atlantic. Wedineinheck (talk) 21:08, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Would Barbara Stanwyck or Rosalind Russel qualify? 192.122.237.11 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:53, 14 June 2011 (UTC).

I have heard that many Canadian Naval Officers affected a mid-Atlantic accent, though the practice largely disappeared by the seventies. [1] "Rear-Admiral Mifflin: Before I answer — and I think that is a key and important question — I want to go back to traditions again. I would commend to the clerk and the committee, if you can get a copy of it, the Mainguy report of 1949. From 1945 to 1949, there was angst in the Royal Canadian Navy for a number of reasons but mainly because our officers, Canadians, were trained in Britain. Many of them had served in the Royal Navy during the war, before the war and after the war. Canadians were speaking with what was called a mid-Atlantic accent, and the communication between officers and the men was not what young Canadians who joined the navy expected it to be."131.137.245.209 (talk) 15:31, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ http://www.parl.gc.ca/Content/SEN/Committee/403/defe/09eva-e.htm

Boston Brahmin accent

The article lists several people and characters as having a Mid-Atlantic accent who are more typically said to have a Boston Brahmin accent, such as the character Charles Emerson Winchester III from MASH fame. 70.20.135.211 (talk) 15:46, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I believe David Ogden Stiers accent, although he played a character from Boston, he spoke in a Mid-Atlantic as opposed to a Bostonian or like a Kennedy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Griessinthewood (talk • contribs) 02:10, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Confused with Standard English

The point of this article is to describe the specific dialect of peoples in geographic locales of the Mid-Atlantic Ocean, such as Bermuda, the Azores, and parts of the Carribean. Mixing American/British dialects etc. is simply more standard (Universal) English (the variety that has seen growth over the past 25 years or so). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.108.8.5 (talk) 20:38, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Mid-Atlantic English is a joke, not a geographical name. It refers to a blend of American English and British English, and that is the point of this article. Esmito (talk) 23:07, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
Its not a joke and I'm pretty certain that in noway shape or form is the point of this article. It would seem that most talking here can not wrap their head around the fact that there is no specific geographical origin nor is it an inherited dialect. For all intents and purposes it is a stage accent used in the entertainment industry. Period. Why that is difficult to grasp is beyond me.Griessinthewood (talk) 00:50, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
I think I can explain why it is difficult to grasp the concept of Mid-Atlantic English. It is hard to understand the idea because the need isn't there anymore. Looking back at the time the transatlantic accent was taught, the very concept of General American hadn't been invented yet. In the early twentieth century, celebrities needed some standard way of speech. (If celebrities, politicians in particular, with very regional accents used their own accents, it could be very challenging to understand their words.) Therefore, purely because it was already a standard at that time, British English was used as a basis, however not the standard in full. (The celebrities didn't want to sound too British, either.) So, a transatlantic dialect of English was created, using British as the basis, and adding some features typically found in many American dialects. The concept of General American developed around the 1960s. Over and out.74.102.216.186 (talk) 03:58, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

No standard

I think it's fair to say we are not in any way suggesting M-Atlantic English is a dialect, or that it embodies a standard form of speech. There are huge fluxuations in character, accent and idiom within this category, usually dominated by the spaker's origins. There is no point treating this article as a comprehensive "how-to". Koppenlady (talk) 21:18, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

There are so many problems with this article that it is hard to justify it - it certainly misses out the fact that it is used on both sides of the pond. There is really only one way to describe “Mid-Atlantic”, and that is the adoption of Americanized speech by British persons, and Anglicized speech by Americans, so that it can become hard to identify the true origin of some speakers. Mick Jagger adopts an American-ish drawl to the British listener, but may not sound anything like an American to a U.S. listener; John Houseman tends towards RP and a British sound whichever side of the Atlantic you are. I doubt that anyone in the U.K. would think that Kelsey Grammer sounded anything other than American (he certainly doesn’t sound remotely British to me), but there are probably a lot of people in the U.K. who wouldn’t ever have known that Alistair Cooke was British. It is so much a matter of degree.Jock123 (talk) 23:46, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
In this case, a distinction should be made between the mid-Atlantic accent of WWII-era upper class Americans and British immigrants to America who just sound ambiguous. I mean, obviously, Mick Jagger's accent was not the same as President Franklin D. Roosevelt's. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.251.116.245 (talk) 06:40, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Richard Harrison?

I'm not sure, but perhaps someone meant either Richard Harris or Rex Harrison? - Special-T (talk) 22:20, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Bermudian English

Although there are distinctly Bermudian accents, most Bermudians are described as speaking with a 'trans-Atlantic' accent, which is fitting, given its location, and its close ties to both Britain and North America. Aodhdubh (talk) 04:27, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

What about TCKs?

I grew up in Italy with American mother and went to a British school. In the US I am told I have a British accent in in the UK I am told I have an american one. Would this no be a mid-atlantic accent come by naturally, as opposed to an affectation? I know many other TCKs with similar accents. Pearl2525 (talk) 14:55, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Mid-Atlantic accents are certainly not all affectations. Many fluent non-native English speakers have a slightly odd mixture of AE and BE pronunciation, grammar and vocabulary. Dutch people invariably sound mid-Atlantic to BE speakers, for example. --Ef80 (talk) 18:24, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
Further, many North Americans who live for decades in the UK, and Britons who have lived for decades here, innocently acquire a mid-Atlantic accent from simple immersion. As a linguist I've reached a point where I can reliably identify these individuals. (Interestingly, it's not the same accent; counter-immersion effects Britons differently from North Americans.)
I'm also the product of a Scottish family, who has consumed a great deal of British media all my life but was raised in North America, and my own accent drifts dramatically depending on context. I often deliver one-liners in Scotified English; every so often I'll drop a comment in full-on Scots; and when angry I can go either Scot-wards or American redneck, depending on what/who has nettled me. Etc.
My point is, this fate can befall an individual organically. Mid-Atlantic speech isn't uniquely a product of pretense. Laodah 21:48, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

Grace Kelly?

Grace Kelly? PurpleChez (talk) 18:43, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

This is a paragraph from an older version of this article, shouldn't we reinstate some of the names of notable people which are no longer included? Some of them seem eligible while others don't.

With the evolution of talkies in the late 1920s, voice was first heard in motion pictures. It was then that the majority of audiences first heard Hollywood actors speaking predominantly in Mid-Atlantic English. Some had been raised with it, many adopted it starting out in the theatre, and others simply affected it to help their careers. Among those from Hollywood's Golden Era of the 1930s associated with the accent are British-born Cary Grant,[3] and Americans Katharine Hepburn, Bette Davis, Douglas Fairbanks Jr, Joan Crawford and Irene Dunne.

British expatriates John Houseman, Henry Daniell, Anthony Hopkins, Elizabeth Taylor, Camilla Luddington, and Angela Cartwright exemplified the accent,[citation needed] as did Americans Eleanor Parker, Grace Kelly, Jane Wyatt, Eartha Kitt, Agnes Moorehead, Patrick McGoohan, William Daniels, Vincent Price, Clifton Webb, John McGiver, Jonathan Harris, Roscoe Lee Browne,[4] and Richard Chamberlain, and Canadians Christopher Plummer, John Vernon, Norma Shearer, and Lorne Greene.

Orson Welles notably spoke in a mid-Atlantic accent in the 1941 film Citizen Kane, as did many of his co-stars, such as Joseph Cotten.[citation needed]

Figures outside the entertainment industry known for speaking Mid-Atlantic English include William F. Buckley, Jr.,[5] Gore Vidal, Franklin D. Roosevelt, George Plimpton,[6][7] Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis, Wallis Simpson, Norman Mailer,[8] Diana Vreeland,[9] Maria Callas, Cornelius Vanderbilt IV,[10] and Brad Friedel.[11] The monologuist Ruth Draper's recorded "The Italian Lesson" gives an example of this East Coast American upper class diction of the 1940s.

I can tell for sure that Grace Kelly spoke with a Mid-Atlantic accent both in To catch a Thief and Dial M for Murder. Agnes Moorehead used the accent on-stage, notably as Endora in Bewitched, but also off-stage as is the case with Clifton Webb. I think they should be reinstated, even though a printed reference can't be found. The matter becomes more difficult for Crawford, for instance, who didn't use the accent for Baby Jane, but did she use it in some other film? Also Fairbanks Jr seemed to be losing it later in life, some of the rs at the end of words making a come back (compare the two interviews: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbbUJvE4OQw, you can hear the accent clearly as he recites Kipling but also in his casual conversation; and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt5avAEDE7c). Elizabeth Taylor used it for Cleopatra but never seemed to use it in real life, at least from the 1970s onward, you can tell from her many interviews and the same goes for Jane Wyatt. Should we reinstate some of them, citing some films where they can be heard using the accent, or should we just leave them out? Hopkins is British and was too old to be a case comparable to Cary Grant, so it's only right he was dropped out of the list. Furthermore, can someone find some reference for some of them? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.48.29.175 (talk) 11:27, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

as satire or parody

Would it be frivolous to discuss how this type of accent has, more recently, been used as a parody or as part of a charicature of affected status? I'm thinking, for instance, of a character from Family Guy with the jutting jaw and an almost incomprehensible ivy league accent... And on The Simpsons--it was perhaps Sideshow Bob's first starring role--when Bob went to prison he was greeted by someone in That Accent asking him to join the prison rowing team "against the Harvard Alums." PurpleChez (talk) 14:13, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

"I'm thinking, for instance, of a character from Family Guy with the jutting jaw and an almost incomprehensible ivy league accent". That would be James William Bottomtooth III. Sideshow Bob is also a good example.
Another example not yet mentioned here, is Wile E. Coyote. In the coyote's wikipedia article, he is described as having "a refined accent, introducing himself as "Wile E. Coyote — super genius", voiced with an upper-class, cultured English accent..." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:558:6045:91:51F4:C16E:F029:9785 (talk) 07:45, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
In family guy Stewart yes. Wile E. Coyote? Not even close.Griessinthewood (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:57, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Let's provide readers with audio examples of the accent

So they can either experience it or try to pick it up for themselves

http://www.theatlantic.com/video/index/243064/ An airplane tour of San Francisco

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6ZUneyU7Vo President McKinley

Timothy Perseus Wordsworthe (talk) 18:39, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Accent or Dialect?

This article cannot make up its mind whether Mid-Atlantic English is an accent or a dialect, two very different things - it seems to think it is both sometimes - and is woolly about whether it is alive or dead. I am not qualified to do it, but someone needs to rewrite this article, clarifying these points. I have rewritten clumsy passages here and there to make them read better, but have limited my edits to that. --P123cat1 (talk) 13:55, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

This is a cultivated accent: a particular learned "sound system." The word dialect implies not just sound, but other differentiating language features like grammatical structure, vocabulary, etc. I've moved the article to reflect this in its name. Wolfdog (talk) 15:13, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
By “cultivated” do you mean in the socially refined/ upper-crust sense, or that it is an accent cultivated by the speaker, e.g. through elocution? In any case, the description might apply to American speakers, but not the other way; as mentioned before, British pop/ rock stars often speak/ sing in an affected “Americanized” accent, described as “mid-Atlantic”,but it has no sense of heightened status or upper class attached to it by British listeners, and may actually be seen as striking against status - Mick Jagger was brought up to speak with an RP accent (there is footage of him on TV as a teenager with his father, and h used it in later debates on music and morality, etc.), but first adopted a “Cockney”-tinged accent to appear more working class, to which was added American cadences, in emulation of the U.S. artists and music he admired. In an interesting twist, it is perfectly exemplified by the characters of the band in “Spinal Tap”, who have uncannily synthesized the “Cockney”/ “American” idiom of so many British performers over the years. Jock123 (talk) 17:15, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 5 December 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move after over two weeks and a relisting. I will make sure disambiguation hat notes are in place to handle any confusion. Cúchullain t/c 14:51, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

Mid-Atlantic accent → Transatlantic accent – "Mid-Atlantic accent" is obviously one common name for this variety of English, but it is too easily conflated with Mid-Atlantic American English, which the academic literature most commonly (and so confusingly, relative to this page) calls the "Mid-Atlantic dialect". Even more to the point, "Transatlantic accent" gets 47,300 Google hits, while "Mid(-)atlantic accent", with or without a hyphen, gets only 15,900 hits. The name "Transatlantic accent" is clear, prevalent, and unambiguous. Wolfdog (talk) 12:58, 5 December 2015 (UTC) Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 12:57, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Mid-Atlantic_accent/Archive_1&oldid=1261822825"