Talk:Manic (Halsey album)

Ending the debate/WP:CONSENSUS

Ok after months of back and forth, I think it is finally time to end the debate on if "clementine", "Finally // beautiful stranger" and "SUGA's Interlude" are singles or not. If you haven't already, please read below on the multiple sections that support whether they are or they are not singles. Please respond below stating if you Support that they are singles or Oppose that they are not. LOVI33 21:59, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose – these songs were NEVER pushed as singles by Capitol Records nor has Capitol Records or Halsey called them singles. Although reliable sources call them singles, a promotional single is a TYPE of single and they probably only think that because they were released prior to Manic. For example, reliable sources have called Ariana Grande's "Imagine" and Dua Lipa's "Future Nostalgia" but we know here on Wikipedia that they are promotional singles due to their lack of promotion and radio date. Some people probably think they are singles due to the fact that they have a music video, but according to Wikipedia:Promotional singles, a music video does not make a song a single. Wikipedia:Promotional singles is a good resource for deciding whether or not a song is a single as it has criteria on what makes a song a single. These songs only meet one of the criteria and it states that if a song meets three, it can be dubbed a promotional single so this is fair evidence to call them promotional singles. Some users who I have seen that agree with my opinion are: GetawayDress, Froyo Fox126, Shrewd0307, Anon023409, Gjh fan and Iambacknimbetter. LOVI33 21:59, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
• Support – some users I have seen that support that these songs are singles are: Billiekhalidfan, CountyCountry and Ss112. LOVI33 21:59, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

"Nightmare"

Although not included in the pre-order, iHeart Radio and Pitchfork agree that "Nightmare" is on this album. I suspect that it wasn't added to the pre-order yet by mistake, as I don't know why this song wouldn't be on this album. Opinions? Billiekhalidfan (talk) 03:30, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

• "She then added that the forthcoming album — of which 'Nightmare' is not a part". It's not uncommon to scrap flop singles.--NØ 15:19, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
  • I wouldn't say "Nightmare" flopped, but it wasn't as successful as "Without Me", that's for sure. But the thing is the album title was literally hidden in the "Nightmare" video. Anyway, here are more sources that agree "Nightmare" is on this album: ET Canada, Alternative Press, Billboard, Music Feeds. Billiekhalidfan (talk) 18:39, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

• She has excluded it from the album, it doesn't appear on the pre-order. She has given an interview confirming Nightmare is not part of the album. The song "Nightmare" will not appear on the album Manic, etc. etc. To summarize: The song is not on this album regardless of a few wrong articles. It's literally, virtually, not present on the album and stating otherwise is objectively wrong.—NØ 19:00, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

• All I am saying is that it is a possibility. And she didn't confirm it, the interviewer decided that herself. The pre-order could change. And seven articles isn't "a few". Billiekhalidfan (talk) 19:06, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

• el o el. Do. some. research. before getting loud. Satisfied now?—NØ 19:33, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

• Yes, and I wasn't "getting loud". If anything, you're being plain rude. Billiekhalidfan (talk) 19:40, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

@MaranoFan: Well, well, well. Let me first remind you of what you said in your talk :" Tell others that they're wrong with kindness". Stop being messy and pipe down on the sassiness for a moment, can you? This is merely disrespectful to call @Billiekhalidfan: "loud" when he's just trying to ask a question. Let's be honest, on your talk page you talk about how great Wikipedia is and etc Stop. Being. A. Messy. Bottom but is it really the image you're giving? Aren't you ashame of your damn self? I'd be if I were you. Would you like to be insulted for no reason? Like c'mon. You're being unnecessarily rude and bratty as if you had taken any personal offense in what Billiekhalidfan fan said when he just asked a question. Stop being a little shady brat and grow some respect and transparency while we are at it.

This is not the place nor the time to pick unnecessary fights.

Was I clear?

clementine

Should Clementine qualified as a promotional single or a single itself? Because first of all it was released out of the blue and then it wasn't released on a Friday, long story short : I do believe that clementine is not a single. Opinions? Iambacknimbetter (talk) 23:03, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

If you find a source calling it a promotional single, then maybe, but still discuss. However multiple sources have called it the third single. Camila Cabello's "Liar" and "Shameless" were released on a Thursday but are singles with radio airplay. Billiekhalidfan (talk) 23:23, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

@Billiekhalidfan: there's never sources calling songs promotional singles it's just that it's common in the music industry to release promotional singles the day an album is out for pre-order. Clementine (song) was released w/o any prior announcement and it is not predicted to be serviced as a radio single or anything of that sort and for that I THINK that it is a promotional recording.

OH by the way, Thursday are strategical days to release music aka SINGLES, I can't explain but for sure I can quote sources!

By the way hi!!!

Iambacknimbetter (talk) Iambacknimbetter 😋

Even if it seems like it's a promotional single, it still needs a source. A song doesn't need radio airplay to be a single. Also, "Clementine" was not released the same day as the album was released for pre-order. "Graveyard" was. Billiekhalidfan (talk) 23:35, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Do we need sources that say that promo singles are indeed Promotional recordings? Since when do we needed that? Halsey just released it out of nowhere without any prior announcement on her birthday.

If we need sources that say that this song is a promo single, then we need sources about Graveyard and we even need sources about Manic being an album... Maybe it can be a mixtape, you know.

In short. You're too uptight. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Iambacknimbetter (talk • contribs) 23:44, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes, we do need sources to call the song a promo single, especially since multiple sources call it a single. And for your sarcastic comments, many sources call Manic her third album, and "Graveyard" has been called a single and has been released to radio. So we actually do source everything. Billiekhalidfan (talk) 23:47, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

@Billiekhalidfan:

Since when I was being sArCaStIC? I merely stated that if we have to provide sources for every and anything then, maybe, Manic is a mixtape and we never know?

And finally after careful research something that someone never does *cough* someone I know *cough* I found out that Clementine is the third single of the album, which is a terrible choice of single... Literally.

Iambacknimbetter (talk) Live, Laugh, drag! - Imbackandimbetter!

Lol. I literally provided a source calling "Clementine" the third single in the article and told you that there were even more sources calling it a single, but I'm the one not doing research while you were trying to call it a promo single without any research given. Because that makes so much sense.. Billiekhalidfan (talk) 23:58, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

@Billiekhalidfan:

You honestly sound like someone I'd bully at school for no reasons and I love it.

But to start ma'am, where did you provided a source??? Because I just went down our discussion and I've found no external link so yeah you didn't provide any source, let's stop with the lies.

Then, when did I say that you were the one not doing any research? Because miss thing, I said "someone I know" stop being concerned about everything because the earth does not turn around your messy self.

Secondly, I had done researches on clementine and I saw that it was being qualified as single but the articles I read were the same who classified "The Light Is Coming" as a single as well so I did not take it in consideration, clementine is possibly a single, you can breath in one, two three and don't forget to take this stick out of your a--.

Thanks, - Management.

Iambacknimbetter (talk) Live, Laugh, drag, - Imbackandimbetter

I provided a source in Manic (album) and Clementine (Halsey song) confirming the song's release as a single. Also, you literally just changed "*cough* you *cough*" to "*cough* someone I know *cough*". I'm not stupid, I see the edit history. You are the one who needs to stop with the lies. And it's mister. Billiekhalidfan (talk) 00:18, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

@Billiekhalidfan: uh uh miss independant! I'm going to call you ma'am whenever, wherever I effin' want 😊 and that's exactly what I'm going to do MA'AM. You did not provide any source calling it a single. Your trifling ass decided that it was a single out if nowhere and you know what, keep the article to yourself since you think that you're the only one who should edit it, then do whatever the f you want, have sex with the article, eat it, I don't know... Shove it you know where?! Why don't you? !!!!

And you are not stupid? I don't think so and I'm not the only one who who thinks so!

Girl I am LMFAOOOOOOOO, you literally quoted hot new hip hopamd except to be taken seriously?

Iambacknimbetter (talk) Iambacknimbetter

You literally agreed before that it was a single and now you're saying I made it up. Can this just be over?

P.S. Your username is very ironic because you are certainly not "back n better". Billiekhalidfan (talk) 01:06, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Exactly "agreed" you used that past tense so great. Wished you would've gotten your a-- out of my face that would've been great, now get your a-- out of my way in past tense.

Iambacknimbetter (talk) Iambacknimbetter —Preceding undated comment added 02:53, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

•  Warning @Iambacknimbetter Knock it off. And I do mean right now. If you don't understand what I am referring to I suggest you take a look at WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA before you type a single letter on the project. You may regard this as a Formal Warning. -Ad Orientem (talk) 22:52, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

The Song, "Finally // Beautfiul Stranger"

I believe the song is a promotional single. Just like "Suga's Interlude", it doesn't have a radio release date so far. Halsey nor her label have called this a single, nor are reliable sources calling it a single. What do you think? CountyCountry (talk) 03:09, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

I have found that both Billboard[1] and The Line of Best Fit[2] have called them singles, which means that both "Finally // Beautiful Strangers" and "Suga's Interlude" are indeed singles. CountyCountry (talk) 11:18, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Singles

Can we please collectively stop having an edit war over the singles. The back and forth is exhausting so please take this into consideration before removing edits and fighting. Without Me, Graveyard, and You Should Be Sad are the only songs that have been promoted as singles from the album. Clementine, Finally // Beautiful Stranger, and Suga’s Interlude are promotional singles. Clementine was only released to celebrate Halsey’s birthday, it was not released to serve as the third single. Graveyard had only just came out and was continued to be promoted as her current single especially through live performances after Clementine’s release. Clementine was not promoted past its release day when Halsey posted about it. Next, Finally // BS and Suga’s Interlude were released right after Halsey unveiled the tracklist for promo and simply to build up hype again and the fact that it had been a while since she last put out a song. It would not make sense to 1) release an interlude as a single and 2) to release one or two singles and then a little over a month later start promoting the next single. It is common for an artist to release a single when it’s close to album release to build anticipation and for promo reasons. While yes both Clementine and Finally // BS had music videos it does not mean they are singles. Halsey has released music videos for promo singles and non-singles before such as for Hurricane, Strangers, and Sorry. In addition none of which did Clementine, Finally // BS, or Suga’s Interlude ever impact radio, which I know does mean they are singles however is a huge indicator and a common promo step for official singles. W/o Me, Graveyard, and You Should Be Sad all on the other hand have it are set to impact radio. It would also make no sense and be strange to release 6 official singles before an album, logically some of them have to be promotional. While I’m sure it is and has been done by others just look at Halsey’s past pre-album releases. She’s never done that and has not even released 6 singles on either Badlands or HFK not only before the album release but throughout the entire era. You can even just simply tell looking at the promotion. Compare Graveyard and You Should Be Sad’s promotion to others..Plus compare how Halsey herself has promoted them. Also almost every article on newly released songs refers to them as “singles” however that does not mean they actually are? Look at articles for other artists’ promo singles when they were released: The Light is Coming by Ariana Grande was referred to as a single by articles and had a music video but was not an actual single. And finally here are some references that Clementine, Finally // BS, and Suga’s Interlude should be listed as promo singles:

Clementine is referred to as a promo single if you look at its citation, and Clementine, Finally, and Suga’s Interlude were all described by Captiol Records, the label the songs are released through, as “new tracks” as opposed to singles. Graveyard, on the other hand, was referred to as a single by them when it was released.

https://www.capitolrecords.com/halsey-celebrates-her-birthday-sharing-new-album-track-and-video-clementine/ - here is where Clementine is referred to as just a new track and in the same article the label refer to Graveyard as her new single aka recent single aka current single.

https://www.capitolrecords.com/halsey-shares-two-new-songs-sugas-interlude-finally-beautiful-stranger/ - here Finally and Suga’s Interlude are referred to as “new songs” not singles.

in contrast, when Graveyard came out the label referred to it as her new “single” - https://www.capitolrecords.com/halsey-releases-new-single-graveyard-and-announces-next-album-manic-out-january-17-2020/

Please stop with the back and forth, the constant undoing and editing, there is no reason to fight over something so simple like this. Anon023409 (talk) 05:49, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

@Anon023409: "Please stop with the back and forth, the constant undoing"... "there is no reason to fight". What absolute hypocrisy. That's exactly what you just did and what you're still doing. You made changes that were reverted; it's not something an editor just changed before you and you're reverting. Per WP:BRD, you don't revert again, you get a consensus before making your changes. If you revert again, I will report you to either WP:AN/EW or an admin. Maybe even get a CU onto you, because you seem pretty persistent and suspicious to me for a new editor. Ss112 06:09, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

Yeah ur right, Wikipedia's users are dumb cuz they think every song is a single GetawayDress (talk) 10:13, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

Ss112, where’s the evidence? Where’s the evidence that Anon023409 was a part of this “war”? Please have them ready. Also, I totally agree with the fact that clementine and Finally // beautiful strangers are promotion singles. Perhaps we can apply to watch this page? Shrewd0307 (talk) 01:45, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Does this count as consensus? I thought everyone already agreed that only Without Me, Graveyard, and You should be sad were the proper singles. Froyo Fox126 (talk) 13:58, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

I thought they were too but me reverting the information that kept getting changed to wrong info was me engaging in an edit war I guess even though I didn’t see anyone else taking it to the talk pages so I eventually did but didn’t get any compromise, only: that. But whatever. I been trying my best to play nice about it, I’d like to just agree and move on at this point. This page is an absolute mess and I’d like to clean it up knowing I’m not going to be reported or have any privileges taken away. So are we all in agreement on the singles then? (Main singles: Without Me, Graveyard, You Should Be Sad. Promo: Clementine, Finally, Suga) Anon023409 (talk) 12:47, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Yes, please. Seeing it look like this makes my brain hurt. Maybe wait for any other editors to make comments. Froyo Fox126 (talk) 14:22, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

So is this consensus then? We all on the same page? No one else has replied so can we go ahead and clean the page up. Anon023409 (talk) 22:37, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

It should count. We can't get banned if no one else is communicating on the talk page, right? Froyo Fox126 (talk) 23:07, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

We shouldn’t, we did what we were supposed to, get consensus and no one else is responding or objecting so I think as of now we should be fine to go ahead and make changes. And if someone has a problem with it we aren’t in the wrong because we did what we were supposed to and they didn’t say a peep or look at the talk page so that’s just the way I see it. But yeah I think we should be okay Anon023409 (talk) 03:22, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

@Anon023409: Having one other editor agree with you in no way is a what WP:CONSENSUS is. Establish a formal consensus. Honestly, this little back-and-forth looks entirely suspicious to me. Froyo registered only just the other day and has made a bunch of troll and unsourced edits and could very likely be either your sockpuppet or a sock of a blocked user. I would bet on one or the other being the case. If either of you(r accounts) be disruptive and changes the article without a formal consensus again, I will report both of you to an admin and request a CU (which I may just do already). Ss112 12:25, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

@Ss112: Okay, first of all do not accuse me of being some other user when I’ve had one interaction with, they may have made some troll edits but that’s not my intentions here and I had no clue that they recently made their account so sorry about that, but this is the only account I have. Also, it’s a little hard to reach consensus when nobody is being responsive but with comments like these, I would please ask to stop making threats or coming off in a harsh manner every time I make a mistake because I really was trying to do things differently than edit warring this time around. Those edits were not made to be purposely disruptive so I am sorry about that. And you revised the entire page which was not necessary because I made necessary changes and updates to the info paragraph. I may just take my business elsewhere since it is clear that all I keep doing is angering you and making mistakes, all I’m trying to do is keep the page updated and clean. Anon023409 (talk) 12:51, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

I think all these threats and insults need to stop. I believe that they aren’t singles but that’s beside the point. Apparently we have equal proof they could be singles or promo singles, so saying it has to be one way or you will request to ban someone is childish. You did it to me, you’ve done it to others. Stop. You do not own the page. Gjh fan (talk) 13:28, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

This source calls "You Should Be Sad" the third single from Manic, thus making "Clementine", "Finally // Beautiful Stranger", and "Suga's Interlude" promotional singles. 199.119.233.193 (talk) 18:01, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

"Clementine" is a promotional single, "SUGA's Interlude" as well. However, many outlets have stated "Finally // beautiful stranger" a single. Halsey hasn't responded, so let's leave this debate for now. Musiceditor515 (talk) 20:40, 14 May 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Musiceditor515 (talk • contribs)

Orphaned references in Manic (album)

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Manic (album)'s orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Metacritic":

• From Jennifer's Body: "Jennifer's Body Reviews". Metacritic. CBS Interactive. September 17, 2009.
• From ¡Dos!: "Dos! Reviews, Ratings, Credits, and More". Metacritic. CBS Interactive. Retrieved November 13, 2012.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 21:00, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

New info.

There should be no need for a user consensus. In the past there was no definitive evidence for either side. Now there is. Halsey herself listed Without Me, Graveyard, & You Should Be Sad as singles. She did not mention the others. She even said “the new single YSBS”, so you know she was listing singles. She would’ve said “featuring the singles: (listed all 6)”, but she didn’t.

Another topic I've noticed was brought up but never fully discussed in the last conversation, Capitol Records never pushed Clementine, F//bs, & Suga’s Interlude as singles. No radio play, no promotion. Out of all three, only Finally got a true music video (Clementine had a dance video as its "music video"). The Clementine music video also only served to promote the Graveyard music video. I can understand if someone thinks Finally is an official single because it was performed alongside You Should Be Sad on SNL, but again, Halsey would have listed it as one, and her record label would have promoted it as one of it was.

Clementine had NO promotion whatsoever and was a surprise release. Its music video only served to promote Graveyard’s. The interlude has no promotion other than the sole fact it was released at the same time as Finally. BTS & Halsey were literally performing at the same event the night after its release and they didn’t perform it. Again, if it was an official single, they would have promoted it as one, and they did not.

I understand that there is a lack of clarity, but come on, Halsey listed 3 singles, the evidence shows there's only 3 real singles, her record label only promoted 3 singles; therefore, there's only 3 singles.

And to respond to your accusations, no I do not believe I am the "gate keeper" of this article. If anything, you're the one who acts like they are (you know who you are). I am only adding new evidence that proves this side of the argument.

Thank you. Gjh fan (talk) 01:12, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

This. Agreed 100% there is more edivdende supporting that they’re promo singles than regular ones and from what I’ve seen there’s more people in the talk page that agree with them being promo singles than them not. I’ve seen the same one person constantly reverting and making threats to others who are just trying to come to an agreement. That is all that has been left in the talk page from them, no civil discussion and no evidence provided from them supporting that they aren’t promo singles. Now why we’re the ones being yelled at to seek consensus and to stop reverting and stop acting like we own the page and being threatened of being reported I’m not exaclty sure. Hypocritical much. None of us are trying to vandalize the page we’re just trying to edit it to have proper information. Again I highly suggest and agree we change the singles to just “Without Me” “Graveyard” and “You Should Be Sad” the current status of it just gives me a headache. I’m not sure how many people we need that counts as “consensu” but there’s definitely more than 2 who have agreed within the talk page if you go look. I’m not exaclty sure why there has to be such a big deal over the singles like why does it matter if they’re listed as promo, it’s a wikipedia page. I don’t know but it’s not worth making enemies or fighting back and forth over. I’d like to apologize however for ever coming off as rude or “fighting” (I tried playing nice already after being ignored and continuously being the receiver of a harsh tone so I reasonably got fed up which would lead to this) or coming off as purposely vandalizing, none of which are my intention people can just be a little much sometimes I’d like to just put any bad blood behind and update the page to proper info and move on with our lives. Anon023409 (talk) 12:29, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

I believe this is proper evidence to prove that clemenentine, F // BS, and Suga's Interlude are not official singles. It should now be clear that Manic produced three official singles, which are: Without Me, Graveyard, and You should be sad. Froyo Fox126 (talk) 03:07, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

I agree! But I feel like if we change it, they'll come up with some BS argument why we can't. What do you all propose? Gjh fan (talk) 00:57, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

I agree! It is 100% clear that "Clementine", "Finally //beautiful stranger" and "Suga's Interlude" are not singles! It is clear that they got no promotion and were only released to hype up the album and other singles. Plus, Capitol Records NEVER referred to them as singles. Also, reliable sources called them singles because a promotional single is a type of single. All songs said above should be removed from infobox as they are in no way singles! LOVI33 (talk) 17:14, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

This should be enough people to count as consensus and we have proper sources. Froyo Fox126 (talk) 22:56, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Yes Agreed! Myself, GetawayDress, Froyo Fox126, Shrewd0307, Anon023409 and Gjh fan have reached WP:CONSENSUS plus many sources above have said that "clementine", "Finally // beautiful stranger" and "SUGA's Interlude" are NOT singles but infact promotional singles. Those songs should now be removed as singles. LOVI33 (talk) 01:01, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 March 2020

This source calls "You Should Be Sad" the third single from Manic. Therefore, "Clementine", "Finally // Beautiful Stranger" and "Suga's Interlude" should be listed as promotional singles. 199.119.235.156 (talk) 01:38, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. See the previous discussion, on the exact same topic, at #Singles. feminist (talk) 14:37, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Without Me

I don't think "Without Me" is the lead single of the album, per Template:Infobox song#album. Also, there are sources that deem "Graveyard" the lead single.[3][4][5][6] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Popmusicstan101 (talk • contribs) 20:15, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Award nomination

• 32nd GLAAD Media Awards

---Another Believer _(Talk) 00:39, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 29 August 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: page moved (non-admin closure) Bada Kaji (talk • श्रीमान् गम्भीर) 17:04, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

---

Manic (album) → Manic (Halsey album) – As discussed on WP:RMT yesterday. See WP:NOPT and WP:PDAB 162 etc. (talk) 15:59, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). SkyWarrior 16:10, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

@162 etc.: This move has already been contested. Since two people have already asked for this to be moved, I have started this move request (courtesy ping @Jax 0677 and Sdrqaz). I have no comment in regards to this. SkyWarrior 16:10, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

• Support per WP:ALBUMDAB / WP:INCDAB. This isn't Thriller (album). —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:26, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
• Support - Support move per WP:NOPT and BarrelProof. --Jax 0677 (talk) 22:36, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
• Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 05:02, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.