Talk:Lyre

Greek and Britanica

I think there is a problem with the 1911 edition of Britanica. Its article states that the greek word for lyre was "Xpa". According to the same article, "Xpa" seems foreign to Greek, and thus it concludes we must search other languages that had a word like "Xpa" in order to identify the origins of the instrument.

I have searched a dozen dictionaries of ancient greek language available online hoping that, after a century since the 1911 britanica, an explanation for "Xpa" might have been proposed. And I found that the "Xpa" which Britanica claims it is the greek word - whose roots can not be identified - ... does not even exist!

Instead I found "Lyre" itself as the word ancient greeks used. On every dictionary! Usually accompanied with a note that it comes from "Lyra", the Harp in Greek. I'm almost sure that Britanica-1911 was wrong. But can someone else verify it?

A lyre is also used in marching band so that performers can see their music while marching.

• Possibly the 1911 article refers to classical Greek, and the dictionaries you are searching are for modern Greek?

I have almost zero knowledge on this, and so idea how different the two are, but it strikes me that the word Lyra may have been imprted in recent times...? AndyPope 01:11, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

My Oxford English Dictionary has the roots thus: "ORIGIN Middle English : via Old French lire and Latin lyra from Greek lura." Hope that clears some of the philology confusion up. Munin and hugin (talk) 20:28, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Manner of playing

THis article assumes that the left hand was used for silencing the unwanted strings, but perhaps there was another way of playing. The left hand could be used for playing harmonics. On any vibrating,tightly-strecthed string there are certain points called nodes that if touched will sound an overtone of the fundamental pitch. Pythagorus spent a great deal of time calculating the mathematical ratios of these nodes. He found that the ratios corresponded to Phi. We can imagine that any serious lyre player, and contemporary of Pythagorus would use these harmonics to create rich melodies and chords, greatly expanding the musical palette of the instrument. Subcinco 00:37, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

There is evidence from period pictoral sources if not literary sources that string damping was the most common method of play. Individual strings could be picked as well. As far as use of harmonics in musical play (beyond Pythagoras's tuning theories), you'd have to submit evidence for this, rather than speculate. Kortoso (talk) 22:47, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Lyre and Kinnor

Historian Samuel Kurinsky asserts that the Greeks adopted the lyre from the Hebrew "kinnor" which is mentioned often in Psalms. See http://www.hebrewhistory.info/factpapers/fp008_music.htm I wonder if this may have been more similar to the Egyptian kithara, mentioned in the entry here. Tzvi Freeman 15:57, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

NPOV

The article concentrates on an extinct instrument. There are several living traditions of lyre music in east Africa. They should be given at least as much room as the ancient greece lyra. I suggest to split the article into a genaral article "Lyre" and e special article "Lyra" covering the greece instrument. The main Lyre article could then include references to all known types of lyre, including the Lyra and other ancient forms of Lyra. Nannus 17:36, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't agree with splitting the article. Lyre very often refers to classic Greek Lyra. Why not somobody enriches this article with other Lyres from places outside Greece? Stevepeterson 09:15, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

We could mention tanbura, krar and begena. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 17:52, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Other Lyres

These seem to be mostly bowed lyres, whereas the Finnish kantele is given short shrift, although IMHO, it's as much a lyre as these others are. Kortoso (talk) 22:49, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Picture

The second picture does not show a Lyra but a toy. I think it should be removed. I suggest adding some picture of an African lyra, e.g. from Ethiopia. We should try to find one that is in the public domain. Nannus 17:36, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Addition of informative material and better free licenced or public domain images is encouraged. -- Infrogmation 17:42, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

confusion between lyra and kithara

This article confuses lyra and kithara and only shows pictures labeled as kithara. --Espoo 21:40, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

vvc

the lyre was invented in Sumer, Mesopotamia

KgorunK

the lyre was invented in Sumer, Mesopotamia  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.177.151.83 (talk) 20:52, 3 November 2007 (UTC) 

What is a lyra?

If the lyra mentioned is not the Cretan lira, what is it? And why does the link take us to the constellation Lyra? That makes no sense at all. Perhaps the reference to lyra should just be deleted. Caeruleancentaur (talk) 00:14, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

the constellation Lyra has its etymological roots in the instrument lyre.Rajpaj (talk) 15:06, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Harp/Lyre

My interpretation was that harps were just specialized lyres/lyres are generic harps. Is that actually the case, or are we talking about two classes of instruments?Rajpaj (talk) 15:05, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Names of 8 strings

definition of Lyre says "The strings of an eight-stringed lyre were named hypate, the ‘highest’ string (probably as the lyre was usually held), which was the longest and gave the lowest sound; parhypate, the next string to hypate; lichanos, the forefinger-string; mese, the middle string; paramese, the next string to mese; trite, the third string (from the bottom); paranete, the next string to nete; and nete, the ‘last’ or ‘lowest’ string, which was the shortest and gave the highest sound." possibly worth listing somehow ? - Rod57 (talk) 21:14, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Number of strings on the classical lyre

Original research? No cites seen. Kortoso (talk) 23:18, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Hermes and the tortoise

Hermes made a lyre out of a tortoise, what was it supposed to look like? More like a harp or more like a guitar? 94.211.59.112 (talk) 13:43, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Improvements needed

• There should be reference, explanation, and links to both Greek lyric and lyric poetry, as well as the Nine lyric poets
• There should be some explanation and link to the differences (if any) between this lyre and the cithara and other forms used in antiquity

 — LlywelynII 05:39, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Well, there were some mentions of cithara. They were just using an unorthodox spelling. Remember to use the versions where these pages are. If you think that's "wrong", try to get them moved to whatever you think is "right". — LlywelynII 05:43, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

I disagree with focusing the article on Greek lyre and describing the rest as "others"

I submit that the most neutral way to address the topic would be to start out addressing lyres by their organological definition, and then explain some of the most prominent lyres, and then have sections breaking them out and whatnot.

The current version treats the Greek lyre as a "default" and everything else as some kind of offshoot, which is not historically or organ logically correct, so I think that skews readers' perceptions of the instrument.

Does anyone object to my making some step-by-step moves to balance the article, which don't necessarily remove Greek content (at least nothing that isn't already found at other Greek lyre articles), but addresses the instrument in a more technical and global way? TapTheForwardAssist (talk) 21:22, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

It would be good to direct fresh creativity into this article. You’re right, it is very Greek-centric. I’d like to know more about the lyre in Asia and Africa. Starting organologically makes good sense for an article that touches on so many cultures. If you need help finding content or need other help, email me from my talk page, I might have some ideas. Jacqke (talk) 22:23, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

I havn't seen any objections in the last two months, so I'm going to start going ahead and making changes. @Jacqke:, feel free to pitch in as you like, and we can discuss here if we want to divvy up any responsibilities. TapTheForwardAssist (talk) 06:13, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

We need to flesh out sections for Modern lyres, and African lyres

I've got some of the basics down, but I think we need a section for "Modern" lyres (the Gartner type being the key example), as well as the several lyres of Africa. TapTheForwardAssist (talk) 06:36, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

I'm planning to take the list at "Global variants and parallels" and turn it into text for each regional section. TapTheForwardAssist (talk) 03:20, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

The seven-stringed lyre nowadays

Διήων won't start the discussion, so I will.

Apparently there's a course that offers instruction on the performance of and composing for the seven-stringed lyre. Cool! However, all of the sources provided ( ) are related to Nikos Xanthoulis, whose article interestingly doesn't mention it at all. I'm not against the idea of including a note that the instrument is seeing a revival, but a single university and a single person is not really enough support for anything other than a mention in his article. Can we please discuss this instead of edit-warring and reinserting challenged content? NekoKatsun (nyaa) 17:24, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Hello, actually I was about to post it since your very nice message but you got me. Thanks for opening the discussion on the topic. I would like to give some background history before answering to your message. I decided to edit the lyre article and include the part nowdays because I am reaeaally interested in the ancient Greek Lyre and when I was inverstigating the topic I did not find anything regarding the lyre in the modern world on wikipedia. All sources are related to Xanthoulis because he is the scholar, composer and solist that has been working on the revival of the lyre the last decade. On the academia links I posted you can find his pappers on that project. I found out that he with the help of two instrument makers in Greece managed to re-make the lyre based on archaeologican finds and the homeric hymn oh Hermes (it describes in detail how Hermes made the first lyre according to the Greek tradition). Since then this man has composed several music pieces for lyre, has created a learning method that stands up to the international standards of learning an instrument and managed with the help of several scholars to make an academic program for studying the ancient Greek lyre. I will provide some related articles on the topic soon to verify what I am proposing. I believe that it is really important to include in the article those information because the revival of the ancient Greek lyre (the instrument that became the symbol of music) after 1600 years of silence is an important part of the story and I am sure thousands of people will be interested to know this information. Διήων (talk) 17:48, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

It is quite easy to find people who have been playing the Kithara or Lyre prior to the last decade, particularly if one is willing to include Gallic lyres. Why should the article focus so heavily (see WP:UNDUE) on Xanthoulis and not any of those others? MrOllie (talk) 18:05, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

My edit was specifically about the seven string Greek lyre. If you have information about the revival of other traditional instruments I would be more than happy to read about it so please go on and post it. The greek lyre was silenced because it was representing a "heathen" civilisation according to the church and it's revision is a big deal since we did not have a lot information about the tuning, the harmonics, the way it was pleyed etc. Maybe you are not intrested in the topic and that's something totally respectable but there are still thousands of people out there interested in the topic and the revival of this instrument. Διήων (talk) 18:21, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

The Kithara /is/ a seven string Greek lyre. MrOllie (talk) 18:25, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

The Kithara is a different instrument than the lyre, actually in the antiquity the Kithara was the instrument that professional musicias used due to it's louder sound while the lyre was the instrument everyone was learning during their musical studies. The Kithara that you say that several people are playing is not the same with the one from the ancient greece though. The re-make of the instrument is still under a processe and it is not there yet, even though there are several who have tried to make it and have successed to a level. Διήων (talk) 18:28, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

We would need secondary reliable sources to explain this, particularly why this revival 7 stringed lyre is not the same 7 stringed lyre that everyone else has been playing. MrOllie (talk) 18:34, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Can you be more specific? What you mean the 7 string lyre that everyone has been playing? Are you reffering to a modern version of it maybe? Διήων (talk) 19:01, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I am referring to the numerous people who have written books, performed, published videos, etc. Michael Levy would be one such example who has a strong internet presence. MrOllie (talk) 19:13, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Michael Levy is playing a version of twelve string Lyre and a nine string lyre, he has also used a version of a nine string Kithara. Even though he has done work on the field of antiquity music he has not contribute much on the revival of the sevent string ancient greek lyre. I am not really familiar with any accademic work of him regarding the lyre but I am pretty sure he has not publish any learning method or participated in the development of an academic curiculum regarding the six string ancient Greek lyre. Διήων (talk) 19:29, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't believe that what you're saying here about Levy is accurate, but even if it is he is one example among many going back quite a while - and before you're asking I'm not going to keep throwing out examples. The point is to give prominence to Xanthoulis over others we need independent sources who do so. MrOllie (talk) 19:47, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Feel free to visit Levy's website and find it out yourself. All the material he has listed and all his compositions are for 9 or more string lyre and kithara. Furthemore the methode he is using to play is not the traditional way. He does not use harmonics or the lyre's plectro. Διήων (talk) 20:00, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

One more thing, I would not say that the article focus heavily on Xanthoulis, but since he is the one responsible for so many aspects of the revival it is normal for his name to appear on the paragraph I added regarding the revival. Διήων (talk) 18:24, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

We need sources that don't originate with Xanthoulis to establish that. MrOllie (talk) 18:26, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Like i said earlier i will post on this post some links with articles etc that provide an insight and I hope we manage to resolve the issue because I strongly believe it is important to include the edit to the article. Furthemore I will rewritte it since I think that my enthusiasm on the subject was viewed as an attempt to promotion and it was nothing like this.. Διήων (talk) 18:30, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Be sure to propose any changes here on the talk page. If you add this to the article again before you secure agreement from other editors it is very likely it will be taken as edit warring. MrOllie (talk) 18:33, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the opportunity for open discussion regarding the topic of the revival of the ancient Greek lyre. Initially, I would like to mention that various institutions have been doing research for decades to revive this ancient instrument (Universities, Conservatories, Music Academies, etc). Furthermore, the rebirth of an instrument of this age is not only the development of a technique but also the archaeological research for its construction (materials, measurements, construction method) and for the philology of sound (prosody, metric) and musical theory . Having said this, I would like to mention some institutions and researchers in the academic field of Archaeomusicology who have been dealing with this topic for years, both with personal research and with experimental archaeomusicology projects all over the world. A very important project is The European Music Archeology Project (EMAP) in which academics, institutions and universities from all over the world came together for the rediscovery of the lyre and other instruments of ancient civilizations (http://www.emaproject.eu/). Through the EMAP project, the Euterpe School (https://www.academia.edu/38499701/EUTERPE_2019_A_Lyre_Summer_School_June_25_30_TARQUINIA_pdf) was formed since 2018 and call several musicians and researchers every year for workshops on the development of seven-stringed lyres and other topics. Another project on the revival of the ancient Greek musical instruments is Hermes Project of the Kapodistrian University of Athens (https://speech.di.uoa.gr/HERMES/en/home-page-2/). A two years (2016-2018) training course in order to provide certified training (both theoretical and practical) on the reconstruction of fully functional models of fifteen ancient greek musical instruments, based on available archaeological evidence, musical iconography and greek literature, as well as to provide certified training musicians on the use of two main types of ancient greek musical instruments, lyres and auloi. Another very important institution is MOISA (https://www.moisasociety.org/). The International Society for the Study of Greek and Roman Music and its Cultural Heritage. An interdisciplinary association that promotes the conservation, interpretation and enhancement of the musical heritage of the Greeks and Romans, and its cultural heritage from the Middle Ages to Contemporary age. Which since 2006 has organized several times every year conferences and gatherings of scholars and researchers of ancient Greek and Roman music to contribute to the study and development of all fields, not just ancient greek musical instruments. I would now like to move on to some names of academics who have been working for decades on the rediscovery of this instrument (not only performance technique but philological rebirth). You can find them all easily if you take a look on YouTube or Google. First of all Stefan Hagel (Austrian Academy of Sciences) who is one of the pillars in the world of Greek music and its musical instruments. Chrestos Terzes (Austrian Academy of Sciences) who organized the Hermes project, John C. Franklin (The University of Vermont), Stelios Psaroudakes (Kapodistrian University of Athens), Felipe Aguirre (University of the Balearic Islands, Department of Philosophy and Social Work), and others. All of them have been playing the seven-stringed lyre for years and have formed research groups, workshops and concerts. I would also like to mention the LVDI SCÆNICI group (https://ludi-scaenici.it/en/music-and-dance/). A group dedicated to the research and performance about music and instruments of the antiquity. It was founded by the musicians Cristina Majnero and Roberto Stanco who are studying this subject from the early ninety. The group has performed in the most important archaeological sites and museums in Europe and collaborated with University “La Sapienza” of Rome and with the University of Tarragona (Catalonia). Finally, I would like to add that Nikos Xanthoulis' contribution is important for the development of virtuosic lyre technique but it is not fair to put him on the pedestal as the only person who contributed to the revival of the ancient Greek lyre since so many people have been working in this field for years. TristanundIsolde123 (talk) 13:15, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

References