Talk:List of nicknames of presidents of the United States/Archive 4

Archive 1

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Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

Ronnie Raygun

Does not appear to meet the requirement of "common usage" as far as I can tell. Collect (talk) 13:10, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

That was an occasional joke, but I wouldn't call it a common nickname. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:38, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

What's the definition of common usage? This Time article from 2001, 13 years after his presidency ended uses the nickname without explanation, implying that the audience would understand. Rillian (talk) 15:54, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Notice it's used well down the page, juxtaposed with the much-discussed but never-implemented "Star Wars" project. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:01, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

It's a multi-page review of Reagan's legacy and it appears in the appropriate chronological order. What does which page it appears on have to do with common usage? Rillian (talk) 17:36, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

"Common usage" is one of the primary criteria which were established on this article talk page by consensus. This has been consistently applied across all the presidents now. "Teddy Roosevelt" appears in over 13,000 scholarly listings (Google Scholar), "Ronnie Raygun" appears in 7. This may mean that one is rather more common than the other. You are more than wielcome to show that "Ronnie Raygun" is, or was, in common usage. [1] appears to show a total lack of SDI as a rationale for the epithet. Collect (talk) 18:52, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

I recall a fair number of us Democratic-leaning types calling him "Ronald Ray-Gun" for awhile, as a joke, but it was very seldom seen in print. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:25, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

It was hyper-partisan and always a fringe use by detractors. It was more likely to appear as graffiti than in printed media.Pbrower2a (talk) 09:47, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia lists it on a disambiguation page here: Raygun (disambiguation) and Webster's On-line Dictionary lists it too (under "extended definition" http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definitions/Raygun ) and here in paragraph 7 of a Herald-Tribune column: http://shdev.ny.atl.publicus.com/article/20050801/COLUMNIST23/508010330?Title=Names-that-can-hurt Ghostofnemo (talk) 13:35, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a "reliable source" in the first place. Your "Webster's Online" specifically states it is from Wikipedia as well. Leaving you with one possible source. One which starts with positing that Karl Rove was nicknamed "turd blossom." An opinion piece for the Sarasota Herald Tribune. After Reagan's death. In short - no reliable sources for common usage during Reagan's lifetime. Sorry 'bout that. Collect (talk) 14:03, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Urban Dictionary: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ronald%20raygun Rational Wiki: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Ronald_Reagan The alternative rock band: http://www.dwarfcraft.com/label/ronald-raygun At the bottom of this pop culture page, see "Real Life" section: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RonaldReagan And in paragraph 8 of an editorial in "The Australian": http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/phillip-adams-not-happy-birthday/story-e6frg8h6-1111117466344 Ghostofnemo (talk) 14:13, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

And a cite for "common usage" from a WP:RS? Wikis, for good reason, do not count as "reliable sources." Nor is the "editorial" blog a reliable source for "common usage." Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:18, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

And a CD: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ronnie-Raygun/dp/B001U3TCYG Ghostofnemo (talk) 14:22, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

And a wristwatch: http://www.antiquesnavigator.com/d-462990/ronald-reagan-ronnie-raygun-wrist-watch-1984.html Ghostofnemo (talk) 14:31, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Two songs from the eighties listed here: "Ballad of Ronnie Raygun" and "Ronald McRaygun": http://www.associatepublisher.com/e/l/li/list_of_songs_about_ronald_reagan.htm Ghostofnemo (talk) 14:43, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Did you see the words "common usage" and "reliable source" in my post above? Collect (talk) 14:45, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

What I'm doing here is showing you examples of "common usage". Here's yet another band: http://www.ronnieraygun.com/ Ghostofnemo (talk) 14:49, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

And please read WP:RS for what Wikipedia states are "reliable sources" for any claims - that a band is named "President Gnarph-Shithead" would not be a reliable source for saying "shithead" is a nickname in common usage for President Gnarph. Clear? Collect (talk) 15:00, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

OK, here's a book review from the Houston Chronicle: http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl/2001_3293573/new-in-paperback.html "Reagan may have been ridiculed as "Ronald Raygun" by detractors who said such a system was impossible, but that didn't stop the U.S. government from spending $60 billion on the idea from 1983 to 1999." Ghostofnemo (talk) 15:02, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

"ridiculed ... by detractors" != "common usage." Collect (talk) 15:36, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

And the Houston Chronicle is a reliable source, eh? Ghostofnemo (talk) 15:19, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

It is reliable for the name being used for ridicule by detractors and nothing more. The requirement here is common usage which the HC does not claim. Cheers. Collect (talk) 15:36, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Are all the nicknames of the other Presidents are being held to this same standard? Ghostofnemo (talk) 15:49, 13 April 2012 (UTC) "No Drama Obama"? Ghostofnemo (talk) 15:51, 13 April 2012 (UTC) Clinton was commonly known as "The First Black President"? Ghostofnemo (talk) 15:57, 13 April 2012 (UTC) Bush 2.0? Ghostofnemo (talk) 16:29, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Each is being held to the same standard. For example, using Google News, one finds "No Drama Obama" used 7 times in just the past month, and used in Poland, Australia, UK etc., reliable sources, all the major US newspapers etc. And over 200K mentions overall. "Ronald Raygun" gets nowhere near such coverage, and the news articles generally mention it as being on placards at demonstrations - not as a nickname in common use. Clinton "first black president" is found in over 4 million google hits <g>, and tons of newspaper coverage etc. including [2], [3], [4] and hundreds more reliable sources. And thousands of book mentions [5] etc. Cheers. Collect (talk) 17:01, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Then this is a situation where Wikipedia fails, because almost every American alive in the 1980's has heard the nickname "Ronald Raygun", but few have ever heard the nicknames "No Drama Obama" or ever heard Clinton called "The First Black President", which are apparently so well documented. So Wikipedia is not reflecting reality, but this is not unusual. Ghostofnemo (talk) 23:20, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia has "Five Pillars" and using what an editor "knows" to be the truth is not one of them. Collect (talk) 14:28, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

My contribution was well referenced with two mainstream newspaper articles, and I've cited many examples in the discussion above. Ghostofnemo (talk) 15:15, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

You have furnished exactly zero reliable sources for the "nickname" being in "common usage" per the requirements of this article. A band using a name is not a reliable source. Wikis are not reliable sources. And newspapers which do not make any claim that it is a nickname in common usage are not going to help you here. Cheers. Collect (talk) 15:53, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Here's the quote from the single reference for the "No Drama Obama" nickname: "As a presidential candidate, the former Illinois senator quickly adopted the nickname "No Drama Obama" for the meticulous level of prudence he applied to nearly every campaign speech, strategy decision and personnel appointment." I understand this to mean that he gave himself this nickname, because it doesn't say he "earned" the nickname or that it was widely used or in "common usage". Ghostofnemo (talk) 16:04, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

And here's the Clinton "First Black President" citation: "Years ago, in the middle of the Whitewater investigation, one heard the first murmurs: white skin notwithstanding, this is our first black President." Again, nothing about the nickname being widely used. Ghostofnemo (talk) 16:08, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Asked before and ansewered before. Let's just point out one bit - the term is widely found in hundreds of reliable sources, was used in Clinton's presence, was used by Clinton speechwriters, was used in over 10,000 books, [http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnsnews.com%2Fnode%2F19984&ei=SkmMT7HYBceW2gX91_TJCQ&usg=AFQjCNEc6269_vyzc1NSfID8ZwK1SJGt5Q] CBSNews, [6] New York Times, [http%3A%2F%2Fpqasb.pqarchiver.com%2Flatimes%2Faccess%2F655179901.html%3Fdids%3D655179901%3A655179901%26FMT%3DABS%26FMTS%3DABS%3AFT%26type%3Dcurrent%26date%3DJun%2B25%252C%2B2004%26author%3DGayle%2BPollard-Terry%26pub%3DLos%2BAngeles%2BTimes%26desc%3DStyle%2B%2526%2BCulture%253B%2BThe%2B'first%2Bblack%2Bpresident%252C'%2Bin%2Bperson%253B%2BBill%2BClinton%2Bwill%2Bsign%2Bcopies%2Bof%2B'My%2BLife'%2Bat%2BEso%2BWon%2BBooks%252C%2Band%2Bits%2Bcustomers%2Bare%2Blining%2Bup.%26pqatl%3Dgoogle&ei=xEmMT-yTKun22gXwwdHUCQ&usg=AFQjCNF4GQkLHoWIrIVgTtb7HzCKQDdhEQ] LA Times etc. (more than 9,000 news articles), over 400 scholarly books and articles, etc. But this is already on this page. Cheers. Collect (talk) 16:35, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Here's the quote from the NYT article: "Chroniclers of the black experience as diverse as Chris Rock and Toni Morrison have described Bill Clinton as the nation's first black President..." This doesn't say the nickname is in widespread use, just that a diverse range of pundits have used it. There may be five of them. If you actually have a source that explicitly notes that this nickname is in widespread use, which is the standard you are holding up for "Ronald Raygun", then it should be in the article as a reference. Ghostofnemo (talk) 18:46, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

When it is found in many hundreds of newspapers, thousands of books, hundreds of scholarly journals etc. Yep - "common usage." And 1.9 million GHits (minus Obama). In fact, the nickname is exceedingly common. Cheers. Collect (talk) 19:26, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

That's original research WP:OR. You need a reliable source that says something like, "Bill Clinton, widely known as America's first black president,...." or "Barack Obama, also known as "No Drama Obama" by the American people, today...." At least that's what you were demanding of me. Ghostofnemo (talk) 03:19, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

No -- that is what this article demands. And has demanded for a number of years. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:27, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

If so, both Clinton's "First Black President" nickname, and Obama's "No Drama" nickname lack this kind of comment by a reliable source. YOU are claiming, based on YOUR research, that these nicknames are in wide use, but no reliable source that is quoted in the reference section of this article states this. And another thing, Obama's "Barry" nickname (which you deleted) seems very similar to Reagan's "Dutch" nickname, which remains in the article. Both were nicknames used primarily in their youths. Ghostofnemo (talk) 14:54, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

"Bullshit Johnson"

Per <ref>{{citation|last=Caro|first=Robert A.|title=The Years of Lyndon Johnson: The path to power|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=0qpNSCmRwOUC|accessdate=15 June 2010|year=1990|publisher=Vintage Books |page=160 |isbn=9780679729457}}</ref> (Bull Johnson in public) Lyndon Johnson had a reputation for boasting at San Marcos College,

Also [7]

Also [8]

also [9]

also [10]

also [11]

Including by Gail Sheehy and in Newsweek. Are four reliable sources sufficient? Collect (talk) 10:57, 24 February 2012

There is no magic number. The question is whether your addition gives a bit of trivia undue weight. I believe it does. Jehochman ^Talk 12:56, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Four reliable sources, and assertion of common usage by his classmates -- on what grounds do you think this fails? Common usage? Sources? Or just that you find it derisory of a person who later was President (the nickname was acquired before his political life, hence can not be dismissed as solely used by political opponents)? The entire list is "trivia" if that is your sole argument here. Collect (talk) 13:08, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Was he president at the time, or was this a nickname given at school? Jehochman ^Talk 20:28, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

The sources are clear - it was a college nickname, as are many of the nicknames for others on the list. Used after college as well per the multiple RS sources. Gail Sheehy used it, and I do not think she qualifies as an anti-Johnson source. Collect (talk) 21:07, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

If your intention was to demonstrate that this article is inherently ridiculous, you have succeeded! If you are suggesting that the article should seriously include this nickname, then I oppose that. I can't immediately think of which rule it would violate, and if there are none, then some rule should be invented. :) Alex Harvey (talk) 12:30, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Either all well-sourced nicknames which were in "common use at the time" are includable, or we should establish some reasonable restrictions thereon. The name at issue, which was clearly not political inorigin, and was also clearly in commonuse is thus either properly included if we are not to make judgements about "derisory" names, or not included if we excluse "derisory" names. As the name was not "political" in nature, that sort of argument fails. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:20, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Interesting discussion with an ironic twist. How 'bout one that Johnson allegedly concocted for himself..."Raider" Johnson, and his famous "Silver Star"...

If LBJ’s medal is fraudulent – and by all credible accounts it appears to be – this is a disgrace to the men who earned the Silver Star, and those who are deserving of the medal, but were not awarded...Johnson was merely an observer on the flight, and no one else on the plane was awarded a medal...“I would say it’s a tissue of exaggerations,” added Caro. “He (Johnson) said that he flew on many missions, not one mission. He (Johnson) said that the crewmen — the other members of the Air Force group, were so admiring of him they called him ‘Raider’ Johnson — neither of these things are true.” [12]

"Bullshit Johnson"[13] indeed. JakeInJoisey (talk) 13:34, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Polk

Was called a "dark horse" but Hayes and Garfield have far better claims to the nickname than does Polk. A "dark horse" antedates all of them - and was used as a descriptor of the election more than as a nickname for the person. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:20, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Barack Kardashian

Here we have a nickname that, as a far as I can tell from popular search engines, is exclusively used by his detractors, and his most vehement ones at that. A Google search for barack kardashian yields a great amount of places that almost always mention Limbaugh, whom it appears may have coined the term. If you look for results that do not mention "limbaugh", they are mostly (if not all) from far right web sites. Not a single one is from what any rational person would call a neutral point of view. If anyone can find sources that talk about the general use of this nickname, that are not in reference to a sole name-caller (i.e. Limbaugh), and that are not elaborate insults, I will not be so quick to remove it. Ender and Peter 03:54, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

It is not in "common usage" hence is problematic. Collect (talk) 11:35, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Obongo / No drama Obama

I added "Obongo" to the nick names for Obama. My change was reverted on the assertion that "Obongo" is not "in common usage". Okay then. I have removed "No Drama Obama" because that is also not in common usage -- at all. In fact, while I hear "Obongo" all the time, I have NEVER heard anyone say "No Drama Obama". It's preposterous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.156.68.226 (talk) 02:28, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Shouldn't rules be applied objectively and evenly? NO ONE says "no drama Obama". That's just gay. If you would like to add a nickname for Obama, please show us that it is at least in common use. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.156.68.226 (talk) 05:46, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Over a hundred usages in the New York Times alone - seems to hit "common" well enough. Collect (talk) 11:48, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Obomber

94.193.234.10: I reverted your first "Obomber" edit because you backed up your submission with a link to UrbanDictionary. Urban Dictionary is not a valid reference as it contains mostly user-submitted "facts" and there is no editorial process to weed out the garbage. So to that end, I was correct for reverting your edit. To answer your taunting edit summary, "Oh, and 'no drama Obama' does?": That submission had a link to a mainstream news site and the terminology appears fairly common. If you don't think the inclusion of that nickname meets the requirements of WP:NOTABILITY feel free to join the discussion further up on the talk page. UPDATE: I found four more quality references for "No Drama Obama" from a variety of sources and added them to the article. This should relieve some of the concerns you might have for the notability of the nickname.

Nextly, your submission was: "Obomber, a reference to his extensive use of missile and drone strikes." We can rule out UrbanDictionary as a valid reference. Your second reference, OMG-facts.com, says that Obama had the nickname "O'bomber" in high school for his basketball skills, not for his extensive use of missile and drone strikes.

Lastly, is your reference to a Pravda opinion piece. A fine reference, but you still haven't demonstrated that the nickname is common enough in the mainstream to warrant inclusion. FoxNews doesn't even call him Obomber. [14]

Based on the lack of proper references and the lack of proof that the nickname is in common, mainstream use, I have reverted your edit again. I'm happy to cooperate with you on this, but we have to first agree on whether or not the submission meets the guidelines established by Wikipedia. Regards, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 17:51, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

I understand your concerns regarding using urban dictionary as a source, which is why i offered two more, more legitimate sources. If you don't believe those two are good enough, i have a bunch more.

Granted, not all of those sources would meet reliability guidelines for most things, yet as a simple reference to the fact that people use this term, i think it's enough. Alternately, one could simply google 'obomber' and see that people do in fact use it fairly often.

Regarding what the little explanation should be afterwards, i'm not particularly fussed, but the nickname IS used.

As for 'no drama Obama', i never questioned it's right to be there. I've simply never heard it before, yet have heard Obomber many, many times.

For what it's worth, it's sometimes spelled/said Obombya or Obomba

When it is googled with all spellings accounted for, it has over 800,000 results whereas 'no drama Obama' has just over 250,000. To reiterate, i don't believe that 'no drama Obama' should be removed, but rather that Obomber/Obomba/Obombya is more common, therefore if the former is accepted, the latter should be too.94.193.234.10 (talk) 19:17, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

There are a few core Wikipedia principals that offer guidance in these situations:

1) What Wikipedia is not states that just by virtue of something being true, doesn't mean it immediately deserves inclusion.

2) [[WP:NOTABILITY|Wikipedia:Notability] explains how to determine if something is worthy of inclusion, and what sort of references are acceptable. "Notability should be demonstrated using reliable sources... Reliable sources generally include mainstream news media and major academic journals, and exclude self-published sources, particularly when self-published on the internet. The foundation of this theory is that such sources 'exercise some form of editorial control.' There are also considerations that need to be made for long term historical notability.

3) Wikipedia:No original research explains that reliable resources have to exist for the information you are submitting. You can't go on Google and count the number of hits on a topic and use that as a reference, because that constitutes original research.

Of the additional references you provided that weren't Google searches:

• OpEdNews.com - Does this conform to WP:NOTABILITY and WP:SOURCES? Maybe. How would you argue that it conforms to the notability standards? Does the site practice editorial control?
• Examiner dot com/article/president-obomber-s-drone-strikes-kill-thousands-pakistan - Does this conform? Maybe. There are some questions as to whether or not the site is a reliable source. What are your thoughts? Side note: Wikipedia has the root domain blacklisted for spam, which is why I had to type out "dot com" when referencing Examiner.
• Obomba cartoon - Might conform if published in a reliable source.
• Revolutionary Communist Progressive Labor Party - Probably doesn't conform. Appears to be a blog.
• Patheos.com - Probably doesn't conform. Appears to be an opinion site presenting one side. See WP:QS.
• WhatTheTrend.com - Doesn't conform. Only reports usage on Twitter.
• Impeach Obomber t-shirt - Does not conform. It's a t-shirt, not a reference.
• ReedPerry.com - Does not conform. Appears to be a blog.
• Adopt Resistance - Blogspot - Another blog. Does not conform.

If you want to re-submit Obomber with your Pravda reference, the Examiner reference and the OpEdNews.com reference, I won't revert your changes. But if another editor objects, you'll have to find stronger secondary sources. If the term is as widely used as you say, there should be ample examples of this term being widely used by reliable secondary sources, not just by primary sources like bloggers, Twitter users, or the-man-on-the-street with a gripe against the president. Regards, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 21:52, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

I find "Obomber" to be not a "nickname in common usage." That bloggers of a particular political slant use it as an epithet in political rhetoric does not make it a "nickname" any more than "baby-killer Johnson" was one for LBJ. Collect (talk) 14:17, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Should we include Obomber as a non-epithet nickname? I believe there are a variety of reliable secondary sources that can be found to support that it was Obama's high school basketball-related nickname. Obviously, that would be made clear in the summary. I'm not certain as to the level of depth this article intends to achieve. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 16:03, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

It fails the "common usage" test utterly from the start. If one needs to do research <g> to find a usage which is not that which the bloggers intend by the rhetoric, the "accidental overlap" is of no real value. I suspect someone, somewhere, called Obama "Slim" but unless it becomes "common usage" it really does not belong here. Cheers. Collect (talk) 16:22, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

References

Handbook of United States political history for readers and students

From what I can tell, Handbook of United States political history for readers and students is a dated but excellent resource that could help expand this article. It provides several President nicknames and examples of their use and notoriety. It could help fill out the Zachary Taylor section, for instance. Google offers it for free. I learned of it in Woodshed's last edit. Ender and Peter 05:02, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for cleaning up my references. I always seem to botch them somehow.

That book raises a question, to me — should every nickname listed in it be included here? Woodshed (talk) 06:06, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Only ones which can reasonably be claimed to have been in "common usage" consistent with the rules for this list established by consensus. Lincoln was called by a wide variety of epithets, many of which never reached that level, as one example. Collect (talk) 06:13, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Hiya guys, as a lurker who has seen and participated in a few reverts on this page. The focus of the article appears to be listing the nicknames of of US presidents that were in common usage at the time of their presidency or shortly thereafter. So unless the book can bolster the "common usage" of the nicknames, we'd still need a variety of references before we can ascribe to Jimmy Carter the nickname "Twerkin' for Peanutz". (Kidding of course, he was never called that.) (Publicly!) Joking aside, common usage seems to be the point of contention here. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 06:24, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Nobama / Obummer

I added Nobama as it is a very common usage among right wing bloggers. Also, it got 2.5 milliom hits in google search, and it is sourced by politico.

Nope. Not a nickname in common usage - it appears, in fact, to be a slogan. Collect (talk) 18:26, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

If that is the case then I will change it to Obummer, which is not slogan and still popular. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Camlon1 (talk • contribs) 04:58, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Is it popular in the mainstream media? Do journalists call him this? Because I'm not sure it's a nickname exactly. It seems more of a cheap pun on his name, and not one that would be used seriously. P.S. I checked the talkpage but only saw mention of 'Nobama', which was rightly removed. -- Peter ^{Talk to me} 16:45, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

The above message was posted not by User:Peter, but by User:Hazhk

While it is not very common among journalists, it is very common among republican bloggers. Hence it has 3 times the number of searches than "No Drama Obama". Many of the names in the article are names that were not very common among journalists such as Bullshit Johnson. Obummer is used by the right frequently, also it is used by far right media. Dubya is the most common smear of Bush, so I think it is only fair that we mention the most common smear from Republicans. To be honest I think there should be a lot more nickname than there currently are. It is a shame that users rather remove others contributions instead of adding their own.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Camlon1 (talk • contribs)

What is the focus of this article? It seems that we're trying very hard to agree on a popular smear nickname for Obama, and I wonder if that conforms to NPOV. What constitutes a nickname? Who gets to bestow it as it pertains to this article? Must it be prolific among the majority populace, or is the nickname noteworthy if used by a niche populace? Is it a name that must stand the test of time, like "The Great Humanitarian?" Ann Coulter referred to Obama as a "retard". Does that count for inclusion once Republican bloggers pick it up? A lot of Republican bloggers call Obama a Muslim. Does that count? Racist bloggers call him a host of horrible things. Do bloggers count in the same way that legitimate news outlets count?

Further, if you're arguing that Obama should get a negative nickname because George W. Bush got "Dubya," I've got to ask if "Dubya" is even a slur. Is Clinton's "Bubba" nickname a slur? Seems that negative nicknames aren't very well represented on this page, with the exception of a few. "Bullshit Johnson," perhaps. "His Rotundity." I suppose Grover Cleveland got jabbed a little.

(Unrelated, may I respectfully request that you please sign your Talk Page posts with four tildes? Thank you!  :) ) Cyphoidbomb (talk) 18:12, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

I think it has nothing to do with NPOV. It doesn't become less neutral if we remove all names that are used as slur, we should rather look if they are popular or not, and Obummer is a very popular name.

You mention Dubya. Dubya is certainly a slur. Dubya is supposed to be the way southerners say W, and it is mostly used by bloggers as well. If you believe that no name should be negative, then a lot of names need to be removed.

Also there is no way you can compare it with retard or muslim, as they are not common nickname. They don't say "Muslim/retard is destroying America" , but they can certainly say "Obummer is destroying America". And as pointed out Obummer is used 3 times as much as "No Drama Obama".

Again, I think there should be a lot more nickname than there currently are. It is a shame that users rather remove others contributions instead of adding their own. This should be the article to see what kind of nicknames presidents had, not what nicknames they have that are neutral/popular enough not to be deleted. It's absolutely pathetic by Wikipedias standard that there are one nickname for Obama. Camlon1 (talk) 19:07, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

I only mentioned Dubya because you mentioned Dubya. :) As for bloggers using the term too, I ask again, do bloggers count? I don't have an answer, I'm just floating the question. "Dubya" was used not only by commenters, but also by members of popular culture. Saturday Night Live may have popularized it, for all I know. One of Wikipedia's standards is notability. Does "Obummer," or the other nicknames you have in mind meet the requirements of WP:NOTABILITY? Please also keep in mind that I've no intention of reverting your edits indiscriminately or causing you a headache. I'm just asking questions so we arrive at a mutual understanding as to what this article should contain. I also agree with you that the article should contain various nicknames that presidents have, even the bad ones, but again, we need to agree on whether or not the nickname is worthy of inclusion, and whether the sources are reliable.

For example, WP:NOTABILITY reads: "Notability should be demonstrated using reliable sources... Reliable sources generally include mainstream news media and major academic journals, and exclude self-published sources, particularly when self-published on the internet. The foundation of this theory is that such sources 'exercise some form of editorial control.' There are also considerations that need to be made for "long term historical notability" as referenced in the section on History. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 20:41, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

I think we should guard against presentism. Obviously the current incumbent is going to get a nickname a week during his presidency. How many - positive or negative - will hold up? 24.167.52.195 (talk) 03:37, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Nixon: "not a crook"?

Is this in common usage? I'm too young to know firsthand. --NE2 13:28, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

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Grover Cleveland

Hi Champion, re: this addition of "Grover the Good" to Grover Cleveland, I can't access the source--Google says the maximum number of views has been reached. Would you say that the reference supports the "common use" threshold established in the lead? This list seems to attract one-off nicknames (especially by casual editors who want to lob angry stones at Obama and Trump) so while I don't think you have an axe to grind with Cleveland, I just want to be sure that we're adhering to the scope. Regards, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 02:15, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

@Cyphoidbomb: A Google Books search reveals many sources which discuss the name, so I have no doubt that it is a common name, if you think otherwise, please let me know. - CHAMPION ^{(talk) (contributions) (logs)} 03:13, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

Champion, fair enough, and maybe the smartest approach on my part would have been to Google it. Although I do think a 'mission-accomplished' edit summary goes a long way and/or multiple references to show scope. Regards and thanks, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 03:38, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

King Obama

Hi The C of E, I don't think "King Obama" has been adequately established as being in common usage. Common usage is the scope of this list. One source you provided does call him King Obama, the other does not. Yes, the Washington Times is musing about whether Obama's presidency could be considered a kingship, but that's not the same thing as calling him quote/unquote "King Obama". There might be sufficient sources to establish that it was a common designation, but so far, I don't think it has been properly established. Thanks and regards, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 19:41, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

I would think that it has based there are quite a few sources around from news sites and some books that do it. Here, here, here, here and here do use the King name/comparison; not to mention the large quantity of photoshops done by members of the public using it. Granted it isn't a positive nickname, however we do have precedence for both positive and negative nicknames being used over at List of nicknames of Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom, some of which have less sources for them than the "King Obama" one does. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 19:54, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

I don't have an issue with whether it's positive or negative, only that the threshold for inclusion has been met and there are sufficient sources to indicate that. Regards, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 20:19, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

The sources don't even use it, and they're uber-conservative. They draw some parallels to his actions and those of a king. That does not equate with a nickname. Regardless, it is not in use, much less common use. --Drmargi (talk) 18:06, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

I have removed "King Obama" a few times. No sources have shown that this is in common usage. Also just now have removed "Obomber", again no common usage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JaneMc182 (talk • contribs) 06:01, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

JaneMc182 You didn't have consensus to remove King Obama, so why you removed it again after I reverted you and pointed you to the talk page to discuss, is beyond me, but it is not constructive, as we'd consider that edit warring. I believe there were several significant sources included that demonstrated usage. I think what needs to be discussed by all involved is how "common usage" is determined, and by that token, whether common usage is limited to what newspapers and books call a president, or if common usage also means terms widely used by the population that are memorialized by reliable sources. Naturally I see the problem with the latter, as the list would become bloated with pejoratives like "pussy grabber" and various racist appellations for Obama, but I think it's a fair question, if for no other reason but to solidify the article's scope. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 06:42, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

Cyphoidbomb Sorry, I didn't know there had to be a consensus. Also I never saw where you pointed me to the talk page. I wasn't edit warring. At least not deliberately. I have never seen "King Obama" in use. I thought that maybe someone was posting it to be derogatory. Both of which were why I deleted the entry. So again, my bad, I am new at editing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JaneMc182 (talk • contribs)

• Yeah, this is really dubious to me. Comparisons with a monarch are inevitable whenever a president takes unilateral action. I'm not surprised to learn that some corners of the internet would've called him a king often, but to assert that "King Obama" was in any way a common nickname hurts our credibility. If we call that common usage, expect to see Trump's section balloon, at least. Can we be grownups here? --BDD (talk) 16:33, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

@BDD: For the record, I don't particuarly care whether or not "King Obama" remains. I keep trying to convince myself to open an RfC for this page, because I think there are at least two significant issues to be resolved (and not many people interested in this article): 1) Is "common usage" limited to what mainstream publications call the president? For example, if the NY Times wrote a piece on the racist nicknames for Obama that were in prevalent use by common folk during his presidency, would we consider these homespun nicknames as valid for inclusion? Same with things like "Pussy grabber". Obviously not in wide usage by the media, but certainly being used and probably documentable. Or are we just documenting nicknames published in newspaper headlines? 2) How do we establish common usage? Is picking 10 mainstream sources that refer to the president as X (ex: King Obama) sufficient, or do we need sources that say explicitly, "King Obama was in common usage". Cyphoidbomb (talk) 15:27, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

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Trump Nicknames Suggestion

@Keizers:, the result of the AfD was snow delete, not merge. As this comes under WP:BLP, I suggest you self-revert and discuss. Objective3000 (talk) 14:15, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

These additions, along with the associated images, are absurd. The threshold for inclusion at this article has always been "common usage" and I doubt the New York Times or other major, reliable soruces, are calling Trump a shitgibbon. I keep threatening to open an RfC on this article, because of stuff like this. Is finding three references for "Mango Mussolini" enough to establish common usage? I don't know that it is. And should we be including nicknames that are used by random people in discussion forums, or by this guy? Really? We care what an Austin playwright thinks? Cyphoidbomb (talk) 15:19, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

OK OK; I hear you guys. But some context here. Look at my profile page, you'll see I've contributed literally hundreds of articles to Wikipedia, but still, the discussion here is at that of experienced editors only, for example I don't know what an RfC is and Wikipedia doesn't make it easy to find out. (not by Googling it anyway). Also I find it highly inconsistent that such exacting standards are applied to this article, but in general any mention in one or two reliable sources seems to be enough to cross the "notable" threshold, but in this case we are being very exacting. Perhaps because the article has so much notariety, I understand. Nonetheless many of the sources are reliable ones ABOUT the usage of some of the nicknames. While you feel that "shitgibbon" for example is really not in common use, a Google search reveals 80,000 hits, I am sure at least half of these are about Trump (but would have to scientifically prove that). And a Twitter search reveals similar. In today's world, this is called relevance. And that nickname might not go down as one of the most famous in history, but having extended itself to probably over 100,000 mentions at some point in history, considering the breadth and depth of Wikipedia, is definitely deserving of inclusion. I am going to try again guys, but in a prose article (let's call it "Nicknames of Donald Trump", i.e. not a list) which limits itself talking about ONLY those nicknames where reliable sources talk ABOUT the impact of and the use of those nicknames. We have a duty to document what IS RELEVANT and not shy away from this just because it's controversial or because the nicknames are pejorative.Keizers (talk) 16:23, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

A couple things. WP:BLP applies as there are living people in this article. WP:NPOV is particularly important on BLPs. Also see WP:RECENTISM. As you can see from these guidelines, extra care must be taken with anything related to living people. Also, articles related to post-1932 American politics can come under discretionary sanctions. See [15]. These sanctions haven’t applied to this article; but likely will if controversial additions are made to living presidents. What this boils down to is that you need take extra care in editing these articles to maintain neutrality. You might also consider the essay WP:10YT. Objective3000 (talk) 17:25, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

I think we know what Cheetos and mangoes look like. Outright insults like "Shitgibbon" or whatever rubbish, should be excluded from the article outright. WalkerIndianaRanger (talk) 17:53, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Walker, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and documents important facts in our society. If a hundred thousand people are calling Trump a shitgibbon, and reliable sources are commenting on that use and its impact in society, then its worthy of inclusion. It is irrelevant whether "shitgibbon" is pejorative. The article is not insulting the President, it is documenting an important occurrence in society.The same applies to a "caring" nickname like "The Donald".Keizers (talk) 18:55, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

As other commentators have already pointed out, WP:BLP still applies as does WP:NPOV. The "caring" as you so put it nickname of "The Donald" has existed for decades and has been in use for decades, as opposed to "shitgibbon" which was a blatant insult not a nickname used by a single person. Also consensus is so far heavily going against your edit even so. WalkerIndianaRanger (talk) 19:18, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

I would go so far as to say my edits have been deleted. I certainly respect the process here, I still find it hard to believe that it is impossible to document the *effect* of nicknames or insulting names, if you will, as documented in reliable secondary sources. "Shitgibbon" happened, and it was a happening that was more important than many events documented on Wikipedia. Are we to pretend it didn't, because it's an insult? Or is this really because he is Donald Trump/the President.Keizers (talk) 20:55, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

@Keizers: Answering a question you asked earlier, "RfC" is "Request for Comment", which is a mechanism for getting more Wikipedia editors to weigh in on discussions that might otherwise go unnoticed. As a general rule of thumb, if you see someone using strange Wikijargon/abbreviations, type WP: plus the jargon into the search bar at top (i.e. WP:RFC or WP:UNDUE or WP:NOR...) and it'll usually take you to the relevant policy or guideline. As to the matter of pejoratives, if mainstream sources like newspapers and magazines are commonly using these pejoratives to describe a president, then you'd have a stronger argument for inclusion. But to include our own research/interpretation of common usage by regular people just opens the door for really obnoxious additions. As I've mentioned elsewhere on this talk page, if a slew of white supremacists refer to Obama on their discussion forums as "Obongo" or other racially insensitive epithets, that's hardly grounds for inclusion unless perhaps, reliable published sources have taken note of the usage and are describing it as being commonly used. If we leave things up to internet trolls, they would flood Twitter with disingenuous posts, and the next thing you know we'd be adding "Shitty McPresidentface" to the list. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 02:17, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

The First Black President

There´s no question Clinton was called this (at least once), but is it really a nickname? Doesn´t really roll of the tongue. It´s a good source, and it´s used in the Bill Clinton article, but it doesn´t support " were in common usage at the time they were in office or shortly thereafter.". Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:10, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Hi Grabergs, I would really encourage you to Google these things and help fix the issue, I think you can easily find in Google News results from the period, evidence that this was a VERY common way to refer to Bill Clinton. Here are three that I found in a few seconds: [16], [17], [18]. Frankly, until just a few days ago when scrutiny was applied because of my including pejorative nicknames of Donald Trump, no one was really checking consistently if the sources were all of the following: secondary AND reliable AND talked ABOUT the use or impact of the name. So there are many cases where an article that simply USES the name is included as the source. Except in the case of Donald Trump. Hehe.Keizers (talk) 13:43, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

That Atlantic article is quite interesting, but (pain-in-the-ass-time), IMO neither that or the other two supports nickname. It´s easy to find sources that states outright that "Bubba" is Clintons nickname, but harder for "The First Black President". However, it´s not impossible, [19] so I´m dropping this. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:31, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

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Conspiracy Theorist-in-Chief

I've noticed numerous uses of this nickname for Donald Trump, as mentioned in notable news media-

• Los Angeles Times
• Washington Post
• Newsday
• New York Times
• NBC News
• CNN
• The Atlantic
• Chicago Tribune
• Slate Magazine
• Mother Jones
• Washington Monthly
• Vox
• The New Republic
• Huffington Post
• Wired
• Forbes Magazine
• Politico
• The Australian Financial Review
• The Guardian
• Rolling Stone
• Sydney Morning Herald

Hoponpop69 (talk) 18:55, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

Sources

Wow. Hard to argue with this long list. What’s the time period involved? O3000 (talk) 20:45, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

• I'd have to check. The earliest may be from while he was still campaigning for the job, but most, if not all, are from his presidency.Hoponpop69 (talk) 22:40, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

Well, I've deleted a few dozen silly nicknames for DJT; but I won't delete this unless someone else comes up with a damn good reason. O3000 (talk) 23:11, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

The Trumpster

I see Keizers removed "The Trumpster" from this list. Keizers said that three sources using it doesn't make it common. But there are many people who use "The Trumpster". See, for instance, this Rucka Rucka Ali song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tu1otiBLPko Cilantrohead (talk) 06:32, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Appears to be one actor using the term and a bunch of YouTube videos. That doesn't suggest the name will stand the test of time. Objective3000 (talk) 13:17, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

The qualifier for inclusion is common usage. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 02:50, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

I would argue this nickname is common usage, it has been used as early as the late 90s, and has been acknowledged by Trump himself multiple times such as this 2005 interview with Conan O'Brien or this comedy skit which from what I've found is from NBC. 31.185.228.212 (talk) 00:18, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

It's a Youtube of a comedy skit. About the worst of all references. O3000 (talk) 00:21, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

Unfortunately, it's the only video I can find of it. It doesn't change the fact that the video is clearly filmed from somewhere and has Trump himself using the nickname. 31.185.228.212 (talk) 00:24, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

If it's the only thing you can find, it's not in common usage. WP:COMMONNAME WP:IRS O3000 (talk) 00:29, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

Obama

Obama was often referred to as "Obummer" by critics. Should be added to the list. --77.190.62.93 (talk) 21:33, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

You'll notice that there are only a small number of nicknames for each president. Obama and Trump were indeed called many unpleasant names, and we remember them because they are recent. But, Washington was also heavily attacked during his tenure. We include nicknames that will likely stand the test of time. O3000 (talk) 21:58, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

if that is so then Conspiracy Theorist-in-Chief should be removed from Trumps list עם ישראל חי (talk) 22:20, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps. But, there are rather a lot of excellent sources using the term. O3000 (talk) 22:23, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

so what, based on your reasoning that doesn't matter as nicknames need to be likely to stand the test of time which it won't because even now it's not really used it was used mostly by anti Trump writers in anti Trump opinion pieces kind of like obummer עם ישראל חי (talk) 15:34, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, I just looked over the sources -- and that's simply not true. O3000 (talk) 16:02, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

I'm not going to argue anymore there is an inconsistency with including for one and not for the other עם ישראל חי (talk) 17:29, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

I think Conspiracy Theorist-in-Chief has a chance at longevity, because it can reasonably be predicted that historians will objectively analyse a demonstrable pattern of published behaviors. "Obummer" is a vague pejorative and seems less likely. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 03:43, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

Other Nicknames for Trump

Teflon Don is one that has been been used a lot in press coverage throughout the campaign and should probably be added to the list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 32.97.110.58 (talk) 22:17, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

I agree with the IP address. "Teflon Don" does seem to appear in a lot of news articles about Trump: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22teflon+don%22&source=lnms&tbm=nws&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiopYKZmZTXAhWD4IMKHSprA_QQ_AUICygC&biw=1280&bih=616 Rreagan007 (talk) 20:53, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

Teflon Don is the nickname for John Gotti. O3000 (talk) 21:02, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

Indeed it is, but it also does refer to Trump. Add a "trump" to the end of that query above and you get a whole bunch of specific hits: [20][21][22][23][24](specific mention of Gotti and Trump)Sorry, that was in a comments section.[25][26][27][28][29][30][31][32][33][34][35][36][37](mentions "Teflon President" also) - Paul^T+/_C 19:31, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

Professor Obama

There was a recent RfD regarding the term "Professor Obama" that caught my eye and could potentially be an addition here. It was briefly an issue in 2008[38] and has been used fairly widely, though mostly unfairly as an insult[39][40][41]. I know there are other links out there, including a post at FactCheck.org[42] discussing the term. Personally, I see it as a positive attribute, but that is beside the point. Does this term qualify as a nickname for inclusion on this list? - Paul^T+/_C 19:54, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

Gap in talk page archives

There seems to be a gap in the archived talk pages. Most of March and April of 2012 seems to have been deleted. Ghostofnemo (talk) 03:19, 6 March 2013 (UTC) For example, this seems to not be in Archive 3 (accessed via the link at the top of this page) although it says Archive 3 (Ronald Raygun and Bullshit Johnson): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_nicknames_of_United_States_Presidents/Archive_3 Ghostofnemo (talk) 03:25, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Both topics are, indeed, properly archived there. One editor was banned, which reduced the volume of discussion a great deal. Collect (talk) 12:26, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

The Johnson section in Archive 3 is different than the one I provided the link to. I don't see the "Ronnie Raygun" section either. I'm clicking on the "Archives 3" link at the top of this page. Ghostofnemo (talk) 02:10, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Absolutely nothing was elided by the bot doing the archiving - as I can see both discussions. Cheers. Collect (talk) 03:01, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

It's a problem, because if you click on the Archive 3 button at the top of this page, these discussions do not appear. They need to be merged into the Archive 3 page above. Ghostofnemo (talk) 00:18, 14 March 2013 (UTC) Done. Ghostofnemo (talk) 00:22, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

There are a number of sections from Talk:List of nicknames of United States Presidents/Archive 3 that are not currently present in Talk:List of nicknames of United States presidents/Archive 3. I think this was an oversite that occured as a result of moving the page from List of nicknames of United States Presidents→List of nicknames of Presidents of the United States. Talk:List of nicknames of United States Presidents/Archive 3 and Talk:List of nicknames of United States presidents/Archive 3 need to be properly mereged (including the edit history, if possible). This edit by Ghostofnemo in an attempt to rectify the error was incomplete and may have put the content in the wrong location on the page. For example, there is no discussion of Kardashian or Obongo when using the search box, but it is clearly listed in the original Archive 3 page. I'm not sure how to rectify this. - Paul^T+/_C 18:43, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

I added the missing page to the archive box (and fixed search), but search will only work on Archive 1-3, not Archive 3 alpha. I think the best solution is to move all 4 pages to Talk:List of nicknames of Presidents of the United States/Archive 1 ... Archive 4. Does this make sense? - Paul^T+/_C 04:33, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

If noone objects in the next week I will make this change. - Paul^T+/_C 07:04, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

December 2016 - removal of nicknames

In these edits I removed a number of nicknames for both Obama and Trump. Generally speaking, I think that per usual, passers-by are using this as a forum to slam their political foes rather than as an academic tool.

Obama

• Barry - Barry keeps coming up, but that's clearly a nickname from his youth. The scope of the article per the lead reads: "This is a list of nicknames of Presidents of the United States which were in common usage at the time they were in office or shortly thereafter." I suppose it could be argued that some media might refer to him as that, but it should probably be discussed here. Some of the other Obama entries were lame, like "The Empty Chair" which was attributed to a board game forum, one was attributed to a defunct page at Amazon.com, and other non-reliable sources. I left "Bam" because it was attributed to New York Daily News, but I don't know that the threshold has been met to demonstrate that Bam is in wide usage.

Trump

• Cheeto Jesus is cute, and it may briefly have gone viral, but again, we're talking about common usage.
• God Emperor - same. Common usage?

Objection[[43]]

• Donald Drumpf (which John Oliver tried to get off the ground)--not in common usage.
• Mr. Brexit, according to the source was a name Trump gave himself, but did it have any legs? Any longevity?
• Pussygrabber - I can actually see this one lingering, but aside from the pre-election scandal, is this in wide usage?
• Fuckface Von Clownstick - While I think the name would really class up the existing list (take that, Bullshit Johnson!) I don't know that this is in wide usage. Comments welcome below. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 17:47, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

* Fair enough, but by using the same childhood nickname criteria perhaps "Dutch" needs removed from the Reagan entry? ShelbyMarion (talk) 20:02, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

I believe Dutch was a lifelong nickname. See Dutch:_A_Memoir_of_Ronald_Reagan. Objective3000 (talk) 20:38, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

I've heard cheeto mentioned with Trump before but I havn't heard any other one in common useage. Calsem (talk) 15:15, 4 November 2018 (UTC)calsem

For what it is worth, I'm pretty sure "Barry" should qualify for inclusion. There was a film about it Barry (2016 film) and there are many references to both the film and nickname in the media: Newsweek[44], The Washington Post[45], NBC News[46], The New York Times[47], Vanity Fair[48]. It is intended to be derogatory in many cases -pointing to Barry Soetoro, his purported legal name- but often it is used as a casual way of referring to the president, as if he is a personal friend. - Paul^T+/_C 18:28, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

Only these refs point to his youth. Two of them don't use Barry in the text. O3000 (talk) 18:48, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

The headlines in the last two show "usage during or shortly thereafter" his presidency, even if it isn't directly mentioned in the text. This was just a sampling of articles, but the main thing is really the film. There is a movie about BO called "Barry" that came out in 2016 while he was still president. That alone should qualify. - Paul^T+/_C 18:56, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[49][50][51][52][53][54][55][56][57][58][59] - Paul^T+/_C 19:17, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

The usage was about his youth. Headlines don't count as WP:RS. There are a lot of poor sources here. O3000 (talk) 21:24, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

Recalling his youth or not, the term is still used to refer to him today. Esquire,[[60]] Politico,[61] NBC,[62] and Vanity Fair[63] are poor sources? And again, the movie is enough. Does anyone else have an opinion on this? - Paul^T+/_C 01:23, 21 March 2019 (UTC) Also, WP:RS says nothing about headlines. What are you quoting? - Paul^T+/_C 01:29, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

I'm not particularly swayed by these references. The Politico piece is talking about him in the past, interviewing people who called him Barry. They're not calling him Barry as far as I can tell. The NBC link is again citing a childhood name in the context of 'the kid who used to be called Barry is returning to his childhood home'. NBC itself is not specifically calling him Barry. The Vanity Fair piece doesn't call him Barry. The name Barry was used by a radio announcer as subterfuge to set up a reveal that the caller on the line was Obama. So, maybe there are other examples, but those were not sufficient in my opinion. And I think that hanging inclusion on a single film places undue emphasis on one source. One film ≠ "common usage at the time they were in office or shortly thereafter". I'm not saying I can't be swayed, though. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 02:10, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

These links are the result of quick searches. The point is that there are a number of mentions in many different contexts. The prank call absolutely qualifies as a joke about the president contemporaneously having the "Barry" nickname, as does the Esquire piece portraying "Barry" as a more laid-back, "cool" version of the business-like, more serious "Barack". I think with a little more digging you will find even more refernces: [64] - referring to lyrics by "Obama Boy" (didn't get quite as popular as Obama Girl, but similar thing) in 2012; [65] - referring to the past, but in 2009 by a prominent pundit in the NYT; [66] - again in the Times this time in 2016 talking about his transformation - also referring to the past but in relation to today - showing that "Barry" still refers to "Barack" at the grey lady throughout his presidency; [67] - referring to a 2017 animated show named "Barry & Joe" (buddy comedy with BO and JB - NDT also features); [68] - referring to BO as "Barry" at Obama's last correspondents dinner in 2016 transcript; [69] - 2010 in the Washington Post: "Yes, but it was less Harry than Barry. Obama came back with a vengeance." So, to review, we have a movie, we have a TV show, we have a reference at the White House Correspondents dinner, and we have dozens of references in reliable sources. Sure, most of those references are about Barry's younger years, but their existence and the sheer amount of them point to the fact that the term was generally used to refer to Barack Obama throughout his presidency and even today. - Paul^T+/_C 03:39, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

@Cyphoidbomb and Objective3000: (or others?) Have you gotten a chance to read the above? The net of the argument is that there are multiple sources using the term in many different ways throughout Obama's presidency. Yes, many mentions relate to Obama's younger days, but there are many contemporaneous mentions referring to him in the "present" (/recent past, including his presidency) as well: So, to review, we have a movie, we have a TV show, we have a reference at [his last] White House Correspondents Dinner, and we have dozens of references in reliable sources. Sure, most of those references are about Barry's younger years, but their existence and the sheer amount of them point to the fact that the term was generally used to refer to Barack Obama throughout his presidency and even today. And, while headlines aren't great sources, they can count to show contemporaneous usage of the term (otherwise the headline wouldn't make sense), as I discuss below. - Paul^T+/_C 07:18, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Things like the White House Correspondents Dinner are not relevant in my mind. These are folk doing comedy routines. Barry just doesn't fit in with Honest Abe or Give 'Em Hell Harry. O3000 (talk) 11:53, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

It fits in perfectly with "Poppy", "Bubba", "Dubya"... not to mention "Conspiracy Theorist-in-Chief" and "Snowflake" (all of which I personally think belong on this page). Do you think you might have a tiny bit of a bias about this? - Paul^T+/_C 14:29, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Um, I don't even know what direction of bias you might think that might be. Barry is neither positive nor negative. O3000 (talk) 14:57, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

It can be argued it is positive, negative, and neutral, that wasn't my point. I just meant biased against inclusion of the nickname in general. You keep moving the goalposts. - Paul^T+/_C 15:18, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

@Objective3000: I did some digging to try to find policy/guideline information about your headlines !RS comment and I came up short. However, I did stumble on Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 258 from that search and (I think) I happened to find where you recently learned this as well. I'm going to post a direct question about it to Masem's talk page and hopefully they can point me in the right direction. I understand the logic behind why that may be the case but I'm very surprised that this isn't directly stated somewhere. I'll let you know if I hear anything. - Paul^T+/_C 23:44, 21 March 2019 (UTC) - Aaaaand, there is no direct guideline/policy supporting this (though it is, generally, correct), at least as of 2014, because... of course not. Why should this be easy? File:Smiley emoticons doh.gif See this RfC and the summary: I have read through this discussion and the previous discussions on this topic in the archives, and there is clearly general agreement that headlines should, at the very least, be treated cautiously and taken 'with a pinch of salt'. There is not a consensus for any sort outright prohibition on the use f headlines as sources, nor for any of the proposed wordings. I recommend further discussion to establish satisfactory wording which discourages the use of headlines as sources but is nonetheless not an outright proscription. (This previous RfC is also relevant.) Now, this does not mean that we definitively can use headlines to source presidential nicknames, but it does mean we cannot definitively say the opposite either. Given this additional context, I contend the use of "Barry" in a headline, even if it is the result of editorial discretion and doesn't represent the journalist's words per se, still can show common usage of the term *at the time*. If that weren't the case the headline could potentially be confusing, wouldn't make sense, and therefore would be unlikely to be used by the editor writing the headline. This is not always true in every context and I am not arguing that, but uses of terms in headlines should not be dismissed out of hand solely because they are in a headline. - Paul^T+/_C 02:02, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

Trump - Snowflake

There is an ongoing RfD regarding Snowflake-in-Chief and it was suggested by Thryduulf there that the nickname(s) could be added to this list, so I WP:BOLDly did so. SCAH reverted the addition. Per WP:BRD, let's discuss it and see if the nicknames (Snowflake-in-Chief and President Snowflake) are worthy of inclusion. For reference, here is the entry that was removed:

*President Snowflake, Snowflake-in-Chief both using the term "Snowflake", for his poor reactions to criticism, particularly on Twitter and regarding the Mueller probe and related investigations.

The terms are supported and referenced in multiple reliable sources including: The Boston Globe, The Guardian, CNN, The Week, USA Today, The Daily Beast, The Washington Post, MSN, and The Atlantic. These were just the first dozen or so links I found from an initial search. I think some of them may be opinion pieces, but I think the majority of them are valid per the inclusion criteria of this list. I'm interested in hearing what others have to say on this so we can find the right group of references to include these nicknames (or decide it isn't worthy of inclusion).

Sources

Thanks, - Paul^T+/_C 18:20, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

• I would have deleted this -- until I saw the impressive list of sources. Keep. O3000 (talk) 18:34, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

"Delete" not NPOV as it's a name used in one context by multiple sources based on the same reasoning they aren't calling him that when they talk about him in any other context as dubya was used interchangeably with George W. SCAH (talk) 19:32, 18 March 2019 (UTC) — SCAH (talk • contribs) is a confirmed sock puppet of AmYisroelChai (talk • contribs).

Please read WP:!VOTE: it is "not the vote" that matters, but the reasoning behind the !vote that is important. There is no reasoning with a single word. - Paul^T+/_C 19:55, 18 March 2019 (UTC) (Note, the comment above originally was: "Delete" SCAH (talk) 3:32 pm, Today (UTC−4) and was subsequently updated an hour later to the above text. SCAH, please mind WP:REDACTED when editing coments in the future.) - Paul^T+/_C 03:27, 19 March 2019 (UTC) (Not how I would have done it, but I appreciate the effort. Thanks. - Paul^T+/_C 16:46, 19 March 2019 (UTC))

For what it is worth, that is a reasonable point that also applies to Conspiracy Theorist-in-Chief (and potentially others)... Though, it doesn't really address the sources as much as the existing consensus on this page. I'm open to having that discussion, but it is a much larger one than just this nickname and probably belongs in a separate section with sufficient additional context. I'll wait for you to start it. - Paul^T+/_C 03:27, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

• Delete: The majority on that list appear to be from left leaning sources under WP:NEWSORG so I would say there is probably a bit of political bias getting involved there. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 23:19, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

If you have a problem with RS, take it toWP:RSN. Otherwise, that's not a !vote that counts. O3000 (talk) 23:52, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

The "left-leaning bias" is a super-weak argument for exclusion. There are chiefly going to be three types of nicknames issued by the press: friendly, neutral and hostile. We have Bullshit Johnson, Tricky Dick and Slick Willie in our list, all of which would represent politically biased perspectives. As an encyclopedia, we are required to present our content in a neutral tone, but that does not mean we are required to omit biased opinions from our article. Common example: Film reviews, where we should present a representative range of opinions to preserve neutrality, but we are not requires to omit criticism as the delete !vote suggests we do. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 02:32, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

• Keep per the demonstrated uses in sources. Even if they are all left-leaning I don't see the relevance of that - this is a list of nicknames used for presidents, not a list of nicknames for presidents used only by political allies (and if it were then Nixon's entry at least would need removing). Disclaimer: I'm the person who suggested retargetting here in the RfD linked above Thryduulf (talk) 02:11, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
• Lean toward keep - I lean toward keep based on the number of sources, and as noted above, I reject the flimsy suggestion that if biased outlets use the term, the term should be excluded. Most of these are political nicknames, and that means they're going to be biased in one way or another. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 02:41, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

If we keep this based on arguments above then why does obama have only one nickname that was only ever used during the campaign, nicknames should only be used if that was a nickname used when talking about him in other contexts besides for what the nickname is about for example Bullshit Johnson, Tricky Dick and Slick Willie are used to refer to them in all contexts. SCAH (talk) 14:22, 19 March 2019 (UTC) — SCAH (talk • contribs) is a confirmed sock puppet of AmYisroelChai (talk • contribs).

Your "only ever used during the campaign" claim re: Obama is totally unfounded and incorrect: February 2018, February 2019, March 2019, March 2019. I personally don't have any idea what you mean when you argue that "Bullshit Johnson, Tricky Dick and Slick Willie are used to refer to them in all contexts". Cyphoidbomb (talk) 15:56, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

bringing sources from after he left office proves my point while he was president he wasn't called no drama Obama except in context of his campaign Bullshit Johnson, Tricky Dick and Slick Willie are used to refer to them when talking about them its used interchangeably with their actual names. For example people refer to bill clinton as Slick Willie as a derogatory nickname when talking about him at all no one is calling Trump Conspiracy Theorist-in-Chief or Snowflake-in-Chief when talking about him except in the context of his support for conspiracies or his lack of a thick skin. That is not considered a nickname it is just a way to say he supports conspiracies or lacks thick skin in a cool insulting way. SCAH (talk) 16:05, 19 March 2019 (UTC) — SCAH (talk • contribs) is a confirmed sock puppet of AmYisroelChai (talk • contribs).

"bringing sources from after he left office proves my point while he was president he wasn't called no drama Obama" Cute. You make a statement that is demonstrably false, i.e. that the nickname was "only ever used during the campaign". I show you modern usages of the nickname that describe his demeanor in general, then you shift the goalposts, apparently without having done an inkling of research on your own: 2011, 2011, 2013, 2014, 2016. As for the rest of your argument, there's never been a restriction at this article that a nickname can't be included if it is specific to a president's attitudes on a given subject, and it's unclear why there ever should be. If a president was weak on foreign policy and that earned him the nickname of "The Great Wet Noodle" or whatever, that should be included if it is in wide usage by the media and could reasonably stand the test of time. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 16:19, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

so why is there no nicknames for obama SCAH (talk) 16:26, 19 March 2019 (UTC) — SCAH (talk • contribs) is a confirmed sock puppet of AmYisroelChai (talk • contribs).

Whataboutism isn't really relevant, but if you have specific nicknames for Obama with proper sourcing that you want included, you can start a new section to have that discussion. It has no bearing on this discussion per WP:OSE. If you want to discuss the inclusion criteria for this article in general that is fine too, but again, start a new section to have that discussion because until the criteria change it is not relevant to this discussion. - Paul^T+/_C 16:34, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

There have been several attempts to add nicknames for Obama -- most of them racist. O3000 (talk) 16:36, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Whether or not they were racist is beside the point; the question is if they were supported by reliable sources. (And again, not really relevant to this discussion, but you know that.) - Paul^T+/_C 16:40, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

@SCAH: "so why is there no nicknames for obama" 1) Another demonstrably false statement. There is a nickname for Obama in the article: "No Drama Obama". 2) Since what you mean is "Why are there no pejorative nicknames for Obama", this list article is not a tit-for-tat; we are not required to have as many nicknames for President A as for President B. The nicknames that some people attempted to add for Obama were things like "King Obama" (where "King" is a cliche snarky nickname for any president, Republican or Democrat, who vetoes lots of stuff or issues lots of executive orders.) "Obummer"[70] and "Obomber"[71] were never properly demonstrated to be in wide usage by the media. Neither was Obozo the Clown[72]. So maybe instead of assuming there's some sort of conspiratorial imbalance at play, which is what your defensive query suggests you think, maybe the answer is as simple as "the people who tried to submit negative nicknames for Obama" couldn't substantiate that any of the nicknames were notable. Note also that there are a lot of pejorative nicknames for Trump that some of us are conscious to exclude. "Fuckface von Clownstick" is not in this article because of editor integrity. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 02:35, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

Most of the sources just call him a snowflake like when they call him an idiot, and the others just use it in the headline, that is not a nickname. Will we now put in as a nickname every insult by everyone because that's what they call him. SCAH (talk) 18:45, 19 March 2019 (UTC) — SCAH (talk • contribs) is a confirmed sock puppet of AmYisroelChai (talk • contribs).

Who/what are you replying to? Please read WP:THREAD so we can have a coherant discussion. Thanks. - Paul^T+/_C 18:52, 19 March 2019 (UTC)You might also find Wikipedia:Indentation useful. - Paul^T+/_C 18:58, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

If there were multiple reliable sources using "President Idiot" as a nickname for Obama, then it would also be included. But as far as I know that is not the case. - Paul^T+/_C 19:04, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

• Don't include: Per SCAH, this isn't one shared alternate name that people are using for Trump, a la George W. Bush / Dubya. It's just an obvious label being applied in multiple instances by separate commentators.  — Scott • talk 16:56, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Hi Scott, may I trouble you to please expound? How exactly are you differentiating between a nickname in wide usage by major sources and "an obvious label being applied in multiple instances by separate commentators"? Cyphoidbomb (talk) 01:03, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

• Hard delete Seeing such things listed on the page is embarrassing for Wikipedia. I know most people here on this site (myself included) lean left but this is ridiculous. Every president ever has had negative slurs and names hurled against them, Trump having his listed but no other president is as obvious bias as I have ever seen on this site. These names are not "nicknames", they're insults.★Trekker (talk) 17:40, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, you'll need to explain your insult to the editors. The only nicknames listed in the article for Trump are 45 and The Donald. OTOH, following are nicknames for other presidents:

• Jackass Andrew Jackson
• The Mistletoe Politician, so called by Joseph Peyton of Tennessee, a Whig opponent, who charged that "Martin Van Buren was a mere political parasite, a branch of mistletoe, that owed its elevation, its growth--nay, its very existence, to the tall trunk of an aged hickory"
• General Mum, as in the expression, "keep it mum". Because of his avoidance of speaking out on controversial issues during his election campaign
• His Accidency, a nickname given by his opponents; the first president to be elevated to the presidency by the death of his predecessor, William Henry Harrison
• Ten-Cent Jimmy, derogatory, as a reaction to Buchanan's campaign statement that ten cents a day was decent pay for a worker
• His Fraudulency, because after the disputed results of the 1876 Election, many Democrats did not consider him legitimately to be president
• The Dude President for his fancy attire and indulgence in extravagant luxury
• Wobbly Warren
• Tricky Dick
• The Teflon President
• Slick Willie O3000 (talk) 18:01, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

• • Look again at the edit history, and what this discussion is about.

@*Treker: Hi there, with regard to this removal of nicknames, I note your edit summary "These are not "nicknames they're clear insults and no other president has such listed." I don't believe it has ever been established here that a presidential nickname has to either be positive or neutral, but never negative. And I don't know how you personally differentiate a nickname from "slurs and names". It is widely accepted that a nickname can absolutely be ridiculing. Also, your assertion that no other president has a pejorative nickname listed is not accurate, as Objective demonstrated. If a president is widely regarded by the media in a negative light, are we supposed to sugarcoat that perception by omitting the criticism? No, that actually would be a violation of WP:NPOV. Example: if a film is widely panned by critics, are we only supposed to present positive or neutral reviews because the negative ones are insulting? It is absolutely legitimate to include negative, insulting nicknames provided that we are not placing undue emphasis on minority opinions, which is not the case here. Regards, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 16:28, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

So if I find a bunch of conservative sources that say that Obama is widely nicknamed "The Nigger President", "President Birth Certificate Faker" or "The Moslim Sadam Hussein Obama" among conservatives would most people accept we add that there too? You can find pretty much any any claim liked by liberals espossed by the thousands of liberal sources (which are almost all sources accepted by Wikipedia as reliable) if you like to look for it. Call me when Fox News or any other right-leaning publication admits that Trump is "widely" called any of those things. I guess in the sake of fairness we should also add "Daughter Fucker" to his nicknames since that was what he is called a ton online.★Trekker (talk) 17:52, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

@*Treker: "So if I find a bunch of conservative sources that say that Obama is widely nicknamed..." Respectfully, this is a disingenuous argument. We all know that we don't care what random nobodies say in comment sections, or on blogs, or on other random websites; we care what reliable published sources say, and there's no way reputable mainstream sources would dare call Obama any of that stuff. And if they did, I'd say that it would be of supreme cultural significance to not only note that conservative mainstream publications were that blatantly racist/zenophobic/Islamophobic, but to provide sufficient context. "Call me when Fox News or any other right-leaning publication admits that Trump is "widely" called any of those things." This is a goalpost shift, because you are arguing that consensus across media is required to include a biased nickname. That's never been established as reasonable. Do all liberal outlets agree with the "Slick Willy" pejorative? Again using film reviews as the example, we are absolutely allowed to include biased perspectives. Fox News doesn't have to agree with the pejoratives to make the inclusion valid. "I guess in the sake of fairness we should also add "Daughter Fucker" to his nicknames since that was what he is called a ton online." Again, disingenuous, as no mainstream sources have called him that. Regards, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 03:26, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

---

• NOTE: Comments above by SCAH have been struck through, as he was violating Wikipedia policy by operating a sockpuppet account when he voiced his opinion. It is also worth noting that the user had been topic-banned here and was originally blocked for battleground editing in contentious areas, which required ArbCom enforcement, then they were re-blocked for sockpuppetry. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 03:02, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

The God-Emperor

Ok, this is my first time to encounter this kind of problem. I usually write an article, provide links and citations and there are no problems. This time however I tried once, it got deleted! I tried a second time, and this time I made sure to explain it better, but once again it got deleted. Third time's a charm, right? Well not for me, it got deleted, again. And only then wikipedia sends me here. And I have something to see, and I quote "it may briefly have gone viral, but again, we're talking about common usage". Can't be I thought! I was certain i saw it from time to time, here and there. After all media in my country talk about Trump when he combs his hair the wrong way. Like America is in our backyard, and not half a world away. And this state of the union was the worst case of this. So to cheer myself up I wanted to look so silly nicknames, but there was not a lot of those. What shock me the most there was not even the most suitable nickname The God-Emperor. After all isn't The God-Emperor from Warhammer 40k guy who sits on his throne, does nothing while his empire stagnates and crumbles. Does that remind you of someone? And so I set off to defend the most suitable nickname this man can ever get. I will try to go thru this chronologically. First let's start with the most reputable: 2016 https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/29/opinion/sunday/the-nazi-tweets-of-trump-god-emperor.html https://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/14/opinions/what-next-alt-right-krasodomski-jones-opinion/index.html https://www.themarysue.com/warhammer-40k-fandom-fascism/god-emperor-trump-feature/ https://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/trump-god-emperor-creepy-reddit_us_579a6970e4b08a8e8b5d38b5 2017 https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/shortcuts/2017/nov/15/out-trolling-trump-cards-against-humanity-history-winding-up-president https://www.npr.org/2017/07/03/535408550/reddit-user-claims-credit-for-trumps-cnn-bodyslam-tweet https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/08/trump-refuses-to-blame-white-nationalists-for-charlottesville-violence-now-theyre-celebrating/ 2018 https://www.vox.com/identities/2018/1/23/16924546/evangelical-tony-perkins-trump-stormy-daniels-affair-mulligan https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2018/12/21/ann-coulter-once-called-trump-god-now-she-says-hes-gutless-if-he-cant-build-wall/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.9e0b440c31d1

And now a little, shall we say, less reputable: https://medium.com/the-sword-and-shield/the-imperial-presidency-and-god-emperor-trump-fb832591be2a So it was used repeatedly over the years since his election by both his supporters and opponents, transmitted through bout reputable and less so media and with that I rest my case. PS I do apologise for long text, and a little shabby English after all it is not my first but my third language! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Monkey O'Ape (talk • contribs) 18:30, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for coming here. On the cites you’ve listed:

• The first cite is an opinion column
• As is the second.
• Third is a geek blog with no text.
• Fourth says that the nickname was actually started as the username of a Reddit forum user and was adopted by neo-Nazi’s along with several other nicknames. Anyhow, this refers to the first cite and is a dup.
• The fifth is The Guardian, which is RS. But, it’s in the Shortcuts section written by a freelance writer who generally writes about pop culture.
• The sixth is again about Reddit, originating with a user described as making anti-Muslim, anti-Jewish posts.
• The seventh shows the nickname in a tweet by Richard Spencer, a white supremacist.
• The eighth doesn’t refer to it as a nickname, but a characterization “central to alt-right memes.”
• The last is Ann Coulter calling him an emperor god.

Basically, what we’re seeing is white supremacists, neo-Nazi’s, and alt-right folk using the term mostly on an alt-right forum. There exist scores of nicknames pushed by various special interest groups. But, if you look over this article, there are a very small number of nicknames per president. We need to consider if a nickname is widely used across different segments of society and will last the test of time. It doesn’t look like this fits as it’s mostly used by extremists on a forum with an embarrassing history. O3000 (talk) 19:27, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Ok, that seems fair! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Monkey O'Ape (talk • contribs) 05:53, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

• Well jeez, now I'm curious what many articles the brand new user account Monkey O'Ape has created, that they are so familiar with how easy it is to create articles on a subject, when that is actually not generally the case. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 06:26, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

I never said this is my first account :D. I had two others which i forgotten username and password and I couldn't bother looking for it so as always I created a new one. Plus this is my first time writing in English, I think words in my own language translate it in English thus I was supposed to say portions of an article, not the whole one. But c'est la vie mistakes happens.

And beside my main argument was defeated so it doesn't matter anymore even if I did misspoke!--Monkey O'Ape (talk) 08:06, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

I've WP:BOLDLY removed this from the article. It's clearly highly-POV and WP:ADVOCACY. Toddst1 (talk) 13:18, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

"BO" for Barack Obama

His initials were (and are?) used to denote tweets and other statements that were directly written by him (and not his team or others that may have access to that particular platform). See The Hill [73][74], NBC News [75], ABC News [76], The Next Web [77], Huffington Post [78], The Atlantic [79][80], The New York Times [81][82][83], Buzzfeed News [84], and The Washington Post [85][86]. See also Barack Obama on social media and the Account usage history section there. - Paul^T+/_C 16:15, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

So, he initials his tweets to keep them brief. I don't see how that's a nickname. O3000 (talk) 16:19, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

What is a nickname exactly even? Why does this list exist anyway? It's pretty much Wikipedia:INDISCRIMINATE.★Trekker (talk) 17:54, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

See: [87]. O3000 (talk) 18:00, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

10 years old AFD doesn't hold much value for me. Keep votes pretty much all follow the logic of "lots of presidents have nicknames and presidents are notable so it must be notable" which doesn't change the fact that it's and INDISCRIMINATE mess and a minefield of POV and BLP violation.★Trekker (talk) 18:07, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

★Trekker, I am very much with you, but given Wikipedia's love of cruft I doubt this will ever go away. Drmies (talk) 15:41, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

I think the nicknames from older times are of some interest; and it would save a lot of effort if modern presidents were omitted. But, that ain't gonna happen either. O3000 (talk) 15:53, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

All the modern nicknames are pretty much recentisms, in modern day we have soooo many sources avalable so its easy to just claim that that would make them noteworthy, but honestly that isn't even true in the culture of 24h newscycle.★Trekker (talk) 16:22, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

O3000, you are correct--thank you. But Trekker's point about all these recentisms is true also. I've often thought that we shouldn't write articles unless we have sources in book form, but that would mean I'd have to get rid of Les Filles de Illighadad, and they're great. But a good pruning might do wonders here. Or a definition--a nickname isn't a nickname until it's become more than one person's cussword for another person, no matter how well verified. Drmies (talk) 17:22, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Recentism problems

I’d guess that 98% of the edits made to this article over the last couple years are about Trump or Obama – far more for Trump. I’d also guess that nearly all of these edits are reverted. Should we omit recent presidents, or simply the current from the list? If so, where should the line be drawn and how do we phrase the line? Just omitting a current should dramatically reduce recentism problems. (I hesitate making this an RfC as I can’t remember any previous discussion. There are 166 page watchers.) O3000 (talk) 18:04, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

I don't see what harm would come from an RFC. Given how few people have engaged in discussion here, it might be the very sensible approach. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 18:51, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Abu Ivanka al-Amriki

@Rosguill: Hi there, re: this edit, can you show that Abu Ivanka al-Amriki meets the "common usage" threshold for inclusion? Typically we've been going by what mainstream sources call a president rather than what the proletariat say. This is important, because there are all sorts of fawning and disparaging names for presidents uttered across social media, discussion forums, etc. Presently I don't think that it meets the typical criterion for inclusion. Regards, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 20:31, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Cyphoidbomb, oops, I wasn't aware of that standard. I'm honestly not attached to adding this nickname but rather was trying to find an appropriate target for the redirect Abu Ivanka Al Amriki, which I came across while patrolling redirects today. I'm going to go ahead and self-revert. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 21:33, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

"Abu Ivanka Al Amriki" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Abu Ivanka Al Amriki. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 21:36, 27 January 2020 (UTC)