Talk:List of Formula One fatalities/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Ricardo Rodriguez

Is there any reason why the link for Ricardo Rodriguez ("Mexican Grand Prix") links to the circuit rather than the race, like most of the others do? --DH85868993 11:09, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

The Mexican Grand Prix was a non-championship event in 1962 and doesn't have its own article.--Diniz 11:59, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Of course. Thanks. --DH85868993 13:21, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

The race now has its own article which is linked to this list. DH85868993 07:30, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Charles de Tornaco

I strongly suspect that Charles de Tornaco was driving a Formula Two Ferrari 500 when he died and should therefore not be included in this list of drivers "who have died as a result of a crash while driving a Formula One car." DH85868993 07:52, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Maybe your right. But sadly, the list can't be changed unless you have a reference to de Toranco's death not being in an Formula One car. If that proves to be the case, then I'm sorry. But in my defense, a lot of sites are very vague when it comes to what drivers were driving, especially when it comes to drivers in the 1950s.--Skully Collins ^Edits 08:02, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Gerhard Mitter

As specified in the note, Mitter was driving a Formula Two car and should therefore not be included in this list of drivers "who have died as a result of a crash while driving a Formula One car." Note that one option would be to redefine the list as a list of drivers "who have died during or in preparation for a World Championship event", in which case he would still qualify. (Although then you would have to question the inclusion of drivers such as Depailler and De Angelis, i.e. does a private test count as "preparation for a World Championship event"?) DH85868993 07:48, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Description of list has been updated, so Mitter's inclusion is now appropriate. - DH85868993 12:31, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

On the list name

How about 'Drivers who have died as a result of accidents during the course of a Formula One Championship event or whilst driving a Formula One car'? That covers Formula 2 cars in F1 races and drivers who died in testing,non-Championship races and Indy? Lemon martini 13:52, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Description updated - DH85868993 12:32, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

List of deaths of Formula One drivers not KIAed

I'm thinking we should have a list of Formula One drivers not killed while racing or at practice? This will open up the floor to the likes of Jim Clark. --121.6.40.89 09:17, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

• The problem is that such a list would also allow for the inclusion of Juan Manuel Fangio, who died peacefully at age 84. You were probably thinking of something along the lines of Category:Racecar drivers killed while racing. Aecis^Brievenbus 18:54, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Note for Villeneuve?

With respect to the guideline specified in the "Notes" section above that there should be a note if the driver didn't die "on the spot", I'm pretty sure I've read reports that Villeneuve wasn't killed instantly, but survived for as long as 3 days(?) after his accident. Does anyone have a reliable source confirming/disputing this? DH85868993 08:19, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

All the sources I can find say that he died in hospital in the evening of the same day, for example [1], [2] and the Gilles Villeneuve article itself.--Diniz 13:32, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I've added a note saying that Villeneuve died in hospital later the same day. - DH85868993 12:11, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

If you read the section of Gilles Villeneuve in 'Murray Walker's formula 1 heroes' book, it says that he was 'thrown out of his car and killed instantly. Pattav2 09:04, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Raymond Sommer

Sommer seems to have been killed driving a Cooper-JAP in a Formula 2 race - so he shouldn't really be in this list? -- Ian Dalziel 12:38, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. This page suggests it was actually a Formula 3 race. I have removed him from the list. DH85868993 02:50, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Mike Spence

Mike Spence was killed during testing of a USAC Champ car, he was not testing a Formula One car.
Formulanone 08:10, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

He was killed at Indianapolis, and at the time the Lotus 56 was an Indianapolis car - it was later raced in Formula One, though. -- Ian Dalziel 14:18, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm with Formulanone - the Lotus 56 Spence was testing was not a legal F1 car. Pratt & Whitney had to build a new (smaller) "3 litre-equivalent" turbine engine for use in the 1971 F1 Lotus 56B. DH85868993 07:17, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I've removed Spence from the list. DH85868993 03:12, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Notes

At the moment, I'm trying to promote this article to FL standards. So I've decided to removed any notes detailing anything involving how the driver died. Exceptions to this rule are Stacey and Bristow, who both died during the same GP, so I assume that some may think they both died in the same accident. The only time you should add a note should be when:

• A spectator (or marshal) died in the accident as well.
• The driver didn't die "on the spot".
• If the driver was driving a privateer entry, see Piers Courage as an example.

If there is any other exceptions let me know. Otherwise, let me know if this is okay.--Skully Collins ^Edits 11:21, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Alan Stacey and Chris Bristow were killed in separate accidents during the 1960 Belgian Grand Prix. According to [www.forix.com/8w/bristow-stacey.html 8W]'s web page briefing on the 1960 Belgian GP:

On the next day, during the race, Bristow was embroiled in an aggressive dice for sixth place with the Ferraris of Wolfgang von Trips and wild Willy Mairesse when, on the 20th lap, he made what appeared to be an unforced error at Burnenville. The apple green Cooper rolled over several times, decapitating him in the process. Clark, in his first season of F1 for Lotus, nearly struck his body where it lay...Two laps later Stacey, lying seventh, crashed at 140mph. Though his Lotus burned, there was sufficient evidence to convince his mechanics that he had been struck in the face by a bird.

As I recall, the book Grand Prix! (Volume 1) says the same thing. Formulanone.one.two 18:11, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Eugenio Castellotti

I think he was killed while testing a Ferrari sports car before Sebring, not a Ferrari F1. Woodcote (talk) 17:32, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Jean-Pierre Wimille

And what about Wimille? The Buenos Aires GP was a F1 race. Woodcote (talk) 19:00, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

The race was in 1949, so isn't technically part of the Formula One World Championship.-- Diniz (talk) 19:24, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I've added a further caveat to the lead paragraph to clarify things.-- Diniz (talk) 19:27, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Another thing is that this list does not include drivers killed driving Formula One cars in non-Championship F1 races. It might be worth clarifying that too . Bretonbanquet (talk) 19:29, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Done.-- Diniz (talk) 19:36, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Eh? When was there a decision to exclude non-championship races? You'll have to delete Schell and Siffert - and logically all the testing accidents - if that is to be the case. -- Ian Dalziel (talk) 19:44, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I was running on automatic pilot earlier. I've reverted myself...-- Diniz (talk) 19:57, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand why drivers killed in F1 races before 1950 could not be added (the championship was created in 1950 but Formula 1 was created in 1947 and the title is F1 fatal accidents), whereas drivers killed in non-championship races after 1950 or during private tests could. It seems quite arbitrary and illogical. Woodcote (talk) 20:09, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree. -- Ian Dalziel (talk) 20:58, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I think the problem seems to lie in the fact that the list only includes drivers from the list of usual subjects, i.e. the guys who entered WDC races. It needs to be extended to the three seasons of F1 prior to the first World Championship, and to those drivers who were killed in F1 races but never started a WDC race. This same issue also applies to the List of Formula One drivers article, which purports to be a full list of drivers who entered an F1 race. Bretonbanquet (talk) 21:09, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

To answer Woodcote's question, Wimille was not included because it was in 1949, which was before Formula One was "born", if you like. So if he died in a race that occurred before 1950, how can the car he was driving be defined as a Formula One car? ;-) -- Phill

That's not quite correct: Formula One was defined in 1946 and the first Formula One races were held in 1947. It's only the World Championship which didn't start until 1950. DH85868993 (talk) 22:49, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Argh! Forgot to sign my comment! Well I guess you learn something new everday, I guess. But I think my point still stands that when someone refers to Formula One they think of the World Championship - although if you wish to find drivers who had died in Formula One cars before 1950 then please be my guest. ;-) --Phill ^{talk Edits} _{Review this GA review!} 11:07, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Inclusion of Indianapolis races in this list

This list claims to be a "list of all drivers who have died as a result of a crash while driving a Formula One car". I don't believe it's correct to describe the car in which Pat O'Connor died as a Formula One car. [In 1958, Formula One engine size was limited 2.5 litres, whereas (I'm 99% sure) the engine in O'Connor's car would have been a 4.2 litre Offy.] Personally, I think all the Indianapolis cars should be removed from this list, since these cars were designed and built as ChampCars, not Formula One cars, even though from 1950-1953 they may have complied with the Formula One regulations (they would have been OK on engine size, but I'm not sure whether they would have complied with all the Formula One regulations). DH85868993 06:42, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

The description of the list has now been updated to indicate that it includes all WDC events, which means that including the Indy races is now correct. - DH85868993 12:30, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

The name of this page is still "List of Formula One fatal accidents". The page's name should be changed. Further on, "List of fatal accidents in the World Drivers Championship" would also be incorrect since this page includes fatal accidents that did not take place during the championship or even during races. Example: Charles de Tomaco (1953), died during Ferrari test on Modena Autodromo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.227.192.252 (talk) 15:01, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

The list is of drivers who died in F1 World Championship races (i.e. the Indy 500 in the 1950s) or whilst driving F1 cars elsewhere, so it is valid to include both Indy 500 and testing fatalities.--Diniz(talk) 15:21, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Carl Scarborough and some others--included wrongly?

Does this driver actually belong on this list? According to his biography article, he didn't actually suffer a fatal accident, but rather died of heat exhaustion after finishing the race in question. Rdfox 76 (talk) 22:43, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Continuing to look over the article, I see that Ivor Bueb was killed testing a Formula Two car, not an F1 car, as well. Rdfox 76 (talk) 23:13, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, since nobody's commented on this in the past... five months, I'll just remove them for now. If you disagree, revert and explain here, please, but since Scarborough didn't die while driving, and Bueb was in an F2 car and not running in a GP, I don't really think they belong on the list. Rdfox 76 (talk) 01:57, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Forgotten drivers

I sought and found in the archives:

• Brian McGuire (29.Aug.1977) - Brands Hatch, warm-up
• Archie Scott-Brown (18.May.1958) - Grand Prix de l'Automobilclub de Francorchamps (non-championship)

[I don't know whether it is F1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wojtek555 (talk • contribs) 13:01, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Brian McGuire is already in the list. Scott-Brown was killed during a sports car race, and therefore doesn't qualify for the list. But thanks anyway. DH85868993 (talk) 13:25, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Also missing; Bruce McLaren test Jim Clark practice at Hockenheim —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.190.87.173 (talk) 15:12, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

No, Bruce died testing a Can-Am car at Goodwood, Jimmy during a Formula Two race at Hockenheim - neither was "during a FIA World Championship race weekend, or elsewhere while driving a Formula One car". -- Ian Dalziel (talk) 15:20, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Criteria needs clarifying

This list either needs to include drivers killed during non-championship F1 events, such as Shane Summers in the 1961 Silver City Trophy, or it needs to be clarified that these guys are omitted. Bretonbanquet (talk) 21:52, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree. The main page currently states criteria as consisting "of all the drivers who have died during a FIA World Championship race weekend, or elsewhere while driving a Formula One car.". Plus the article's title is "List of Formula One fatal accidents", not "List of World Championship fatal accidents". Either we include them, or change the description. Ignore that. Having now read the On the list name section above, and the actual article's opening section, doesn't this imply that Shane Summers can be included? I think it does. Julianhall (talk) 22:07, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree, I think he can be included, but doubtless there are several other guys killed in non-championship F1 events that aren't on this list. Shall we include them all? Some won't have their own articles. Basically I'm putting it up for discussion for people to yay or nay as they see fit, and see where we end up. Bretonbanquet (talk) 22:40, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually, after a quick search, there might only be one other - Mario Alborghetti at Pau '55. Unless we count Paul Greifzu in '52, but I think that was an F2 car. There was no F1 in '52, so maybe he counts too. Bretonbanquet (talk) 23:05, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like Alborghetti should be included too then. My understanding of the article is that it should include:

• Drivers killed at any time during a World Championship race weekend (provided they were driving an F1 car at the time, if for some bizarre reason a driver dies whilst in their motorhome, they don't belong in this list IMO),
• Drivers killed at other times whilst driving an F1 car (testing, non-World Championship F1 races, exhibitions, etc.)

And nothing else. That's how i read the very first sentence of the article. If i'm wrong, then i'd imagine that others may have a similar misunderstanding to mine and the article should be updated to clarify.Julianhall (talk) 14:43, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorting of table Formula1 accidents

I did not vandalise Wikipedia like somebody mentioned but in order to sort a table on date the ONLY way it will work is a format of year/month/day in number format so yyyy/mm/dd. If date formats are 13 May 1968, then next row 1953, June 26th then table column will of course not be sorted on date but just a random order will be shown. Any other ideas how to solve it? If wikipedia doesn't like a date format yyyy/mm/dd then sorting on date will be impossible. Belanda Gila (talk 15:00, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I didn't think you were vandalising, I don't know who said that, but the default sort is by date anyway so I don't think it's that important. The date as yyyy/mm/dd is not very easy to read and it's not generally used. I don't really understand why this table needs to be sortable at all. Bretonbanquet (talk) 15:08, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

The date may not be easy to read like that ok, understood. However I also made a change to sort by Grand Prix so Belgian Grand Prix shows up with Belgian Grand Prix's. This has been changed back too. Then I wonder what is the point in having a table with the option to sort if the sorting itself will end up on sorting on month for the date and sorting on year (as all GP's start with the year) for the race. That is not very logical to me. Then it would be better to delete the sort option from the table all together I think. Or, like I did, put the year behind the Grand Prix so it is possible to sort on Race so you can quickly see how many fatal accidents there were in Holland, Germany, USA etc. Belanda Gila (talk) 15:27, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I'd suggest not having this as a sortable table. We already have another table ranking the number of people killed at each circuit, which, incidentally, I find quite distasteful - Indianapolis is ranked #1, for what, having killed the most drivers? Bretonbanquet (talk) 15:39, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree, you can make it happen then, remove the sort option from the table! Cheers. Belanda Gila (talk) 15:45, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I like the sortable table, but why does it sort the dates alphabetically by the name of the month? --NellieBly (talk) 19:32, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Because it was just doing a straight alphabetic sort on the contents of the Date column. I've updated it so it now sorts the dates in chronological order. DH85868993 (talk) 06:15, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Carl Scarborough heat exhaustion

I've got a 1956 book by Brock Yates ( "The Indianapolis 500: The Story of the Motor Speedway." Harper and Brothers: New York. ) that I picked up at an antique shop and will try to fill in more for the U.S. Indy 500 deaths. See Chet Miller. Do we want to add Carl Scarborough, who retired from the 1953 Indianapolis 500 and died shortly afterward from heat exhaustion? If so, that technicality needs to be added to the overall list.

The Wikipedia reference link would read: Yates, Brock W. "The Indianapolis 500: The Story of the Motor Speedway." Harper and Brothers: New York. 1956. Page 67.

Guroadrunner (talk) 09:03, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Scarborough used to be in the list, but was removed because he died after the race - see the discussion above. But I agree there's an argument that he should be included. DH85868993 (talk) 10:54, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

The list is of fatal accidents. If the death isn't as a result of an accident then how can it go on the list? Readro (talk) 12:13, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Of course! What was I thinking? Tired brain... Thanks, Readro. DH85868993 (talk) 13:26, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

I withdraw my comments. Readro hit the nail on the head. What was I thinking? -- Guroadrunner (talk) 04:25, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

List

this page is list and need to be fixed don´t delete it.—Preceding unsigned comment added by The Tramp (talk • contribs)

It says on the article that drivers who died in testing accidents are not listed. But Peter Revson died in a testing accident at Kyalami. Though the GP was to take place on the 30th April, the test session that Revson was killed in took place on the 22nd and was not part of the GP event itself. As such, his name should be removed as per the conditions of the article. Lec CRP1 18:45, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I think all fatal accidents should be on the list. However, the original data only had drivers killed during GPs, so I put that in the opening sentence to avoid confusion. I'll remove the sentence and add an incomplete tag.--Diniz 19:42, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok, how about Jo Siffert? He died in an F1 car in an F1 race, just not in a race that counted towards the F1 Championship? Lec CRP1 19:32, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

If you have all the data, then put it in - I didn't compile the original list, and there are some drivers missing.--Diniz 20:16, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Archie Scott-Brown and Alberto Ascari died during testing also—Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.114.105.16 (talk • contribs)

Yes, but they weren't driving F1 cars.--Diniz 11:01, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Archie Scott-Brown died in a sports car race at Spa. Mr Larrington (talk) 15:57, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

How about Bill Vukovich, it was on 1955 Indy 500 which was part of F1 championship? --Sporti 08:19, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually if u look at List of Indianapolis 500 deaths there are more

During race:

• 1953
  • Carl Scarborough
• 1958
  • Pat O'Connor

Drivers killed during testing, practice or qualifications:

• 1953
  • Chet Miller
• 1955
  • Manuel Ayulo
• 1957
  • Keith Andrews
• 1959
  • Jerry Unser
  • Bob Cortner

--Sporti 11:01, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

F1 car or F1 race?

There are few which did not happen during F1 championship race. However, all but one are explained well enough. The one doubtful is Martin Brain from 1970. The race was not a F1 race, and it is not explained why he would've been driving a F1 car. 82.141.118.227 (talk) 03:01, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

I've added an extra reference which explicitly identifies the car he was driving as a Formula One Cooper T86-BRM. DH85868993 (talk) 11:40, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Missing fatalities

Why is e.g. this fatal accident missing from the list? The list's scope very much includes all fatalities that happened during a Formula One race, it isn't limited to only drivers, otherwise it would have to be renamed to reflect the limited scope. --213.196.210.189 (talk) 11:06, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

The lead specifically states that the scope is limited to drivers. Readro (talk) 12:27, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Irrelevant. The article must be moved to an appropriate title which accurately reflects the scope. Please read up on naming conventions. --213.196.210.189 (talk) 13:29, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Given that a list of all fatalities at Formula One meetings (not races, as you said) is impossible and undesirable, what title do you suggest? Bretonbanquet (talk) 18:28, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

One that reflects the intended scope of the page. One that, unlike the current one, meets WP:PRECISION. --87.79.231.17 (talk) 10:58, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Like what? Actually suggest a title, please. Bretonbanquet (talk) 18:59, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

As an admittedly clunky start, how about "List of drivers killed in, or in association with, the World Driver's Championship"? There are previously-discussed problems with the current title, in that Indianapolis cars and Formula 2 cars are hardly Formula 1 - and that the original intention was probably not to include Historic and Club racing. Deaths in private testing probably should be included, or it would be simpler. Ian Dalziel (talk) 21:05, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

"In association with" the World Championship could mean a lot of things though. Bear in mind this is a featured list, and it passed all the necessary requirements with this title. Ian, you're talking about changing the whole scope of the list, which is a different thing to what the floating IP is talking about. I'm not keen on restricting it to the World Championship for all kinds of reasons. Bretonbanquet (talk) 21:21, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

No, I'm not suggesting changing the scope of the list - it currently covers Indy and F2 deaths which never had anything to do with Formula One. The current scope of the list is the World Championship, plus F1 cars - I was trying to describe that better than the current title does. Ian Dalziel (talk) 23:20, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Gotcha. I do suspect though that describing this list accurately in one short phrase, with no room for criticism, is next to impossible. The current title does a job of generalising the scope of the list whilst remaining concise, leaving the text to accurately describe the scope. I think we're all open to suggestions though. Bretonbanquet (talk) 00:09, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

How about simply "List of World Driver's Championship fatalities", then? It doesn't cover everything, but it's closer than the current title. An FOM trademark doesn't change history, and featured list assessment doesn't homologate a Formula Two car for Formula One! Ian Dalziel (talk) 13:58, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

But then you'd have to leave out non-Championship fatalities and testing, or the title is as misleading as the current one, if not more so. Bretonbanquet (talk) 14:44, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Well no, I think we're agreed that we can't fully describe the current scope in a short title (I don't like the current scope, but we've already had that argument). I think using the WDC is less misleading - it arguably includes everything but the non-championship races - and it does fit better with the restriction to drivers. Ian Dalziel (talk) 16:41, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Might have to agree to differ, respectfully of course! Testing doesn't have anything to do with the WDC so that could be a problem. The current title is woolly, but just using the WDC in the title is a direct contradiction with the contents, which include non-Championship events. Anyway, nothing can happen unless more people get involved. Bretonbanquet (talk) 17:25, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Heh. Likewise... Testing a car for the WDC has considerably more to do with the WDC than an Indycar ever had to do with F1, so surely the current title is at least as much a direct contradiction? Ian Dalziel (talk) 20:23, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

The Indy 500 being a part of the WDC along with a bunch of F1 races was always a seriously ponderous thing. It is a difficult one, for sure. I hope a few other people come and have their say. I always thought this was an odd list... Bretonbanquet (talk) 20:45, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Non-driver deaths

I see this has been mentioned before, but I expected to find a list of deaths of killed marshalls, spectators etc. as well as drivers in this article. --LukeSurl ^{t c} 00:03, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Proposed move

I would suggest moving this page to Fatal accidents in Formula One. This would allow the article to discuss more in depth the deaths of non-racers while the lists are maintained. We should not aim to include the deaths of everyone ever at an F1 event but we should try to detail some of the significant spectator/marshall fatalities. violet/riga _^[talk] 13:46, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Comment – My problem with this is where do we decide what is significant and what is not? It would introduce a subjective element that would be a bit awkward. I can imagine us including incidents in which one marshall was killed, yet one spectator death would probably be considered unworthy of inclusion. That would be hard to justify. What cut-off would we use? Bretonbanquet (talk) 22:05, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

That is a fair point. I would envisage there being sections about marshal deaths and spectator deaths along with decent illustrative examples, rather than trying to include all of them. violet/riga _^[talk] 22:33, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Wouldn't the simplest approach be to just define it as deaths directly related to on-track action? That way it'll cover the things most of us would instinctively think of - everything from Senna to the marshall who got run over in Canada this year - while leaving out things like spectators having a heart attack in the stalls. As it is, calling it a "List of fatal Formula One accidents" while leaving out all those marshals who have been killed seems like quite a snub.--Torak (talk) 14:37, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

That would be anything but simple. Spectator deaths as we would describe them would never include things like heart attacks. There were a significant number of spectator deaths in the 50s and 60s when cars left the track, most of them more serious than a single marshal fatality. I for one would not know how to go about accurately collating that data. Bretonbanquet (talk) 15:06, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

But those would be directly related to on-track action - just as a driver dying of a heart attack while climbing out of his car after the race would not. A spectator being hit by a flying wheel, a marshal being run over by a tractor while recovering a car during a race, a marshal being hit by a car or Ayrton Senna crashing off - these are all unequivocally directly in connection to the activity of racing, and would all count. Race reports have tended to note if, for instance, someone in the audience has been killed by a runaway wheel, so it should be fairly easy to produce a sufficiently complete and accurate list. Again, I'm not suggesting that the list include people who've died at race sessions in unconnected ways; heart attacks in the grandstands, falling flight cases while packing up to ship out, anaphylaxis from a bee sting are all fatalities or even fatal accidents at a race meet, but are not connected to the cars racing on track and therefore would not be listed.

Fundamentally, my point is that it seems disingenuous to call it a list of "fatal Formula 1 accidents" while excluding a significant number of fatal Formula One accidents. If that more narrow definition is to be used, it seems only fair to change the title to "List of F1 drivers killed in connection with races" or similar. As it is, it really does come across as rather insulting and unfair to those who risk their lives and whose trackside deaths, in the eyes of Wikipedia, don't even count.Torak (talk) 11:42, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Modern race reports would certainly mention any trackside deaths, but older ones may not, and many F1 races have very limited data on them and no report to speak of. The other question is that it would require a fair amount of research – an accurate list of this type would in my estimation consist of between 30 and 50 separate incidents. I do appreciate your last point – I expressed a wish for a section on non-driver deaths back in 2007 (comment is above somewhere) – but it would be a considerable undertaking if it's to be a complete list. Does anybody fancy doing it? Bretonbanquet (talk) 18:38, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

EuroBOSS & Goodwood & stuff

I don't think that anything should count unless it was a then-current-era f1 driver in a then-current-era F1 car for a then-current-era F1 team - EuroBOSS rounds may use ex-F1 cars, as might Goodwood hillclimbs, but they are NOT F1 accidents, they are EuroBOSS/Goodwood accidents. -mattbuck (Talk) 16:18, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Here's the criteria. "This is a list of Formula One fatal accidents, which consists of all the drivers who have died during a FIA World Championship race weekend, or elsewhere while driving a Formula One car." They were driving Formula One cars, thus they fit the criteria. Readro (talk) 16:27, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

They were not cars which conformed to the current Formula One - they were former Formula One cars. I don't think this list was ever intended to catalogue accidents in historic racing. -- Ian Dalziel (talk) 17:27, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

They fit the criteria as-is, regardless of intent. Readro (talk) 17:37, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, as I said - no they don't. They were not Formula One cars at the time of the accidents. -- Ian Dalziel (talk) 23:59, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

A Formula One car is a Formula One car, regardless of how old it is. If we start narrowing the criteria, the thing becomes complicated. Brian McGuire's car wasn't then-current, it was ancient - although it comformed to the formula at the time. Accidents in tests aren't technically Formula One accidents, just accidents in Formula One cars, some of which no doubt did not conform to the formula at the time. For the sake of two extra entries, we have a list of everyone who was ever killed in a Formula One car. An unhappy list, but a complete one. Bretonbanquet (talk) 00:20, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

A Formula One car may be considered, imo, to be a car which conforms to the then-current regulations or the previous/next year's (so if someone had died testing an 09 KERS car in 08, that would count), and driven by a driver in direct employ of an F1 team (eg if Massa had died testing the 07 ferrari last year, that would could). I simply don't see how we can count someone who never drove or tested in F1 as an F1 death. -mattbuck (Talk) 01:54, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Because F1 is more than just the World Championship. Many of the drivers on the list were not employed by an F1 team, some never drove in WC races, and some were killed driving cars that were more than one year old. The criteria have to fit all eras of the sport. But with regard to your initial point, I disagree. Your criteria for defining a Formula One car are arbitrary. So what does a Formula One car become when it ceases to conform to the current regulations? It can't possibly become anything else - it's still a Formula One car. Bretonbanquet (talk) 02:11, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

No, nowadays anyway, F1 is the world championship, about 15 test days a year, and various promotional events. I'm willing to concede that several non-championship races in the past were F1 races, but EuroBOSS and the Goodwood hillclimb are clearly NOT F1 races. -mattbuck (Talk) 09:49, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

If the list is to include everyone who died in anything which was once a Formula One car, then it is anything but complete - we need to add deaths in Historic racing, in Formule Libre, in sportscar racing, in silhouette saloons and in hillclimbing. The stated criterion has already been massaged to include F2 cars and Indianapolis cars which qualified for the WDC. If it encompasses all these other arenas (which I don't believe it does) then it should be redrafted again. -- Ian Dalziel (talk) 09:58, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

This discussion clearly suggests that a redraft of the criteria is necessary. Mattbuck, the list has never tried to limit inclusion to just F1 races. Now you say "various promotional events" are F1, but a EuroBOSS race full of F1 cars isn't? If we're not to have Indy cars or F2 cars that raced when F1 was in fact F2, we're well on the way to having a list of nothing but modern F1 race and qualifying accidents, which is, in my view, pointless and subjective. A list of that type would probably be deleted anyway. Bretonbanquet (talk) 13:07, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't disagree with the general idea of including fatalities outside the WDC. Indeed, I fully support including non-championship F1 races and the South African and British national F1 series. I do question whether a EuroBOSS car is necessarily an F1 car though - iirc some of those cars were modified in various ways, including the use of 4-litre Judd engines. And if that's the case, they're not F1 cars any more. 4u1e (talk) 14:41, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Although I originally added it as an Arrows car, I later uncovered the Most qualifying report that states it was a 1995 Footwork FA16 with a period Ford HB Formula One engine.

It definitely fits the criteria. [3] Readro (talk) 21:28, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

(Lawks. So: a period F1 car, with a period F1 engine, albeit the wrong one for that car! Everything else still meeting period F1 regs? Wing dimensions? I have no proof, I'm just a little uncomfortable with the concept. Well, I suppose I can't argue it's not an F1 car, although you do see the point that EuroBOSS cars are not necessarily F1 cars! 4u1e (talk) 18:51, 25 April 2010 (UTC))

Including EuroBOSS, FoS etc. does create problems, with common perception that the last F1 fatality was in 1994. The way I see it, there's possibly nine different general criteria that could be considered for inclusion on a "List of Formula One fatal accidents":

• Formula One cars during a WC event (a given).
• Non F1-cars during a WC event (F2, Indy 500).
• Domestic F1 championship races (GB and SA).
• F1 non-championship races.
• Formula One cars in a Formula Libre race.
• Testing of (then) contemporary F1 cars.
• Formula One cars in the pre-F1 era (before 1950).
• Demonstrations/races involving historic F1 cars.
• Non-driver fatalities during all of the above.

Perhaps a change to a more defined criteria (e.g. WC events only) needs to be considered, as the current title requires too many arbitrary exclusions to be made. AlexJ (talk) 22:24, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

I would say that there's no controversy over the first seven points--the first six count, and the seventh is specifically excluded in the lede--or the final one, which is also excluded in the lede. Personally, I'd go with excluding point eight, for simplicity, though it might not be bad to mention them in a separate section. (Separating things out to split up competition deaths and deaths not part of a race weekend wouldn't necessarily go wrong, either...) Rdfox 76 (talk)

There does need to be some definition of contemporary though, since I think we'd all agree that if Massa had died driving the 07 Ferrari last year, that would be an F1 accident. -mattbuck (Talk) 23:25, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Much as I hate to say it, perhaps the simplest solution is to restrict the list to WDC events (in the same way that List of Formula One drivers, List of Formula One Grands Prix, etc are restricted to WDC events). Then there's no argument about which races are included. DH85868993 (talk) 23:32, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Simplest, yes, but I'd argue that an F1 testing accident should be included. -mattbuck (Talk) 23:57, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

If the criteria is restricted to WDC events (obviously thus not including testing or pre-event practice - Depailler, de Angelis, Revson etc), I'd start to wonder what the point of this list might be. We would then appear to be cutting the list in half for no reason other than "it was getting a bit complicated for some people". We would also be removing some very notable drivers. There is certainly no encyclopedic benefit in restricting the criteria, plus the title would have to be changed. If there's such an issue with non-WDC fatalities, then I'd suggest splitting the list into sections. Bretonbanquet (talk) 00:07, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Why not just insert "current" in front of "Formula One car"? The issue is surely about historic racing, not non-championship races or testing. -- Ian Dalziel (talk) 12:23, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Because "current" is an ambiguous word. Is a car that hasn't raced for several years, but which conforms to the current formula, current? Readro (talk) 14:27, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

It is currently a Formula One car, yes. -- Ian Dalziel (talk) 16:23, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

The problem with "current" is that we have to define it ourselves, and that's too arbitrary and subjective for an encyclopedia. Bretonbanquet (talk) 14:29, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

We don't have to define the current F1 regulations ourselves. I mean cars comforming to the F1 regulations current at that time. In those words if you insist, but I think it can be a lot simpler. The stated criterion isn't written in stone, you know - this is Wikipedia, it's barely written in sand! It has been changed before, and clearly should be again. If we have to include all fatal accidents in historic F1 cars there are a lot more than two to add, and we'll be straying a long way from the intention of this list. There is already a list of fatal accidents in any kind of racing. -- Ian Dalziel (talk) 16:23, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

How about defining it as a racing driver employed by an F1 team who dies driving an F1 car as part of his duties as that team's driver? I'd say that probably excludes Goodwood, but includes testing (incl Massa driving the F1-2007 last year), all normal testing/practice/races and also promotional stuff like when they drive F1 cars through London. -mattbuck (Talk) 16:48, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

That would exclude all privateers, which is not acceptable. Plus some drivers at Goodwood are driving contemporary Formula One cars under the auspices of a current team. Also, no-one's ever been killed doing promo stuff that I know of, and anyway it would certainly be outside any definition of Formula One that I've ever seen. Bretonbanquet (talk) 16:55, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Plus anyone competing in a WDC event? -mattbuck (Talk) 18:15, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Now might be a good time to ask - what is the intention of this list? And what other fatal accidents in historic racing? I'm not aware of any others. Bretonbanquet (talk) 16:43, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Spencer Flack for one - killed in a 2.5l BRM. There was a fatal accident at Silverstone a couple of years ago. Then there are F1 cars in Libre and hillclimbing. Peter Hawtin's car was ex-F1, I think. I saw a driver killed in a Cooper Chevrolet at Barbon Manor in the sixties - that was probably an F1 car originally. That's off the top of my head - I'm sure there are others. And I don't think any of them belong in this list. -- Ian Dalziel (talk) 17:25, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

As 4u1e pointed out, the cars would have to be in their original set-up, i.e. no Chevrolet engines etc - or they're not Formula One cars any more, i.e. they don't conform to any era of Formula One regulations. Flack might count, but Hawtin was killed in a F5000 race - Cooper-Chevrolet again. The point is, is this a list of accidents in Formula One cars, or a list of accidents to Formula One drivers? Or is it some convoluted thing in between? What bugs me slightly is that inclusion on this list could hang on the date the accident happened - if an F1 driver was killed in a test during his career, it counts - yet if he was killed thrashing his old F1 car up the hill at Goodwood, it wouldn't count, yet a current F1 driver doing exactly the same would count. The accidents could be exactly the same, yet one would count and the other wouldn't. That is not encyclopedic. Bretonbanquet (talk) 17:43, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, if the Chevrolet engines were 2.5l or less they would have conformed. Neither of those was, but how are we going to scrutineer cars destroyed years ago? At the risk of going down a side alley, current F1 cars can't be run at Goodwood. -- Ian Dalziel (talk) 18:41, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Not many Chevrolet engines are less than 2.5 litres, if any. And no, but year-old cars can, just like they are often tested by current F1 teams. Another point is that cars being tested by current F1 teams may not always conform to the period regulations. It's full of holes. Bretonbanquet (talk) 22:22, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Just a note that this list is currently at featured list review, and comments at that page would be appreciated on whether the list meets the FL criteria, or if it needs more work. Also, if there is an ongoing content dispute / edit war the list may fail criterion 6 (stability). Dabomb87 (talk) 00:15, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

All right, I'm sick of this. Pending us coming up with a consensus for what to do about this issue, I've commented out the controversial items. They're still there, but they're invisible to the end user for now. DON'T EDIT WAR TO REMOVE THEM OR TO MAKE THEM VISIBLE! I don't want to end up having to go to WP:RFPP and get this place locked down until we can figure out what we're going to do, but I swear, if people don't stop warring and start talking, I will. Yeesh! rdfox 76 (talk) 20:09, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

There's actually quite a lot of talking going on, and then there's one person who isn't interested in talking. Rather than hiding a portion which actually conforms to the current criteria, which is pretty clear in itself, it might have been worth giving a warning to the editor who just reverts without discussion. The discussion is about changing the criteria - until that is resolved, the list should conform to the criteria. Bretonbanquet (talk) 20:14, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

The point of commenting them out was to create a wrong version that neither side would be happy with, but which serves as a temporary middle ground to stop the edit war while the actual discussion is taking place. Until people stop adding and removing the content, all the talking in the world's not going to accomplish much, so I decided to try and put the brakes on as a temporary measure.

Once this is all settled out, I'll cheerfully help set up whatever resulting consensus we come up with; I'm just sick of seeing the main article keep being at the top of my watchlist with the same edits over and over again. rdfox 76 (talk) 20:24, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

So, to again ask, how about a racing driver employed by an F1 team who dies driving an F1 car as part of his duties as that team's driver, where we take F1 team to be a slightly wider definition allowing the inclusion of privateers (how private were these people anyway? Surely you can't compete with a team of 1, and so therefore you would have a team...) -mattbuck (Talk) 20:37, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, yes. Sometimes there was basically a team of one, or maybe two or three. Part of the issue is with "employed" - some of these guys were the team, not employees of it. Bob Anderson, Brian McGuire, Shane Summers etc. It also raises an issue with testing, as test drivers are not always employed by race teams. I've yet to see a decent reason not to include everyone killed driving an F1 car, provided that car is still in F1 trim. I would simply suggest breaking the list into sections:

1. Fatalities during WC race weekends (First practice - race)

2. Fatalities during non-WC race weekends, including GB and SA Formula One

3. Fatalities during testing of any Formula One car by a driver or team engaged or potentially engaged in Formula One at that time

4. Other fatalities while driving Formula One cars in original Formula One trim. Bretonbanquet (talk) 20:57, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Given all the different definitions that we are attempting to shoehorn into the article, I think Breton's got the right idea here. Break it out into sections and each section can have a different definition. We could consider having separate sections for 1950-1960 Indy and F2 deaths too (World Championship deaths, but not strictly F1 deaths). 4u1e (talk) 04:25, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

I'd support splitting into sections. DH85868993 (talk) 08:02, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

• IMO, this list should be about the Formula One World Championship and nothing else, with the exception of the non-championship races that was entered by teams involved in the championship, which was the norm until the mid-1980s, as inclusion of anything else like those mentioned above make this list a complete joke, therefore I say cut off the EuroBOSS & Goodwood FoS stuff since these are not at all an F1 race, if we are, are we going to list any F1 Corse Clienti drivers and any rich dudes who have just crashed any F1 car. If nobody is going to say anything in a few week, I will do this myself. Donnie Park (talk) 14:55, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

The discussion and the recent FLC have been quite clear that this should include all drivers who have died at the wheel of an F1 car. They may not be an F1 race, but the drivers have died whilst driving an F1 car, therefore it is within the scope of the list, which was agreed by consensus. NapHit (talk) 15:09, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Donnie Park, this is a featured list. You can't just decide you're going to axe whatever bits of it you don't like. The discussion above constitutes a consensus, and there won't be any wholesale changes of the type you're advocating without a further consensus to do it. Bretonbanquet (talk) 16:53, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

As I read it, any consensus was for your suggestion of splitting the list, which hasn't happened yet - so I wouldn't consider the current content inviolate. Ian Dalziel (talk) 11:16, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but there was also inputs from editors at the FLC and as none suggested splitting, the fact it was promoted with these drivers in the list infers a consensus for it to include these drivers. NapHit (talk) 12:41, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Exactly – I should have said the consensus lies above and here [4]. Bretonbanquet (talk) 00:11, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

The simplest solution would be to change the title to state more clearly what the article is. When I come here I don't expect to see any names after Senna's, he was the last driver to die in F1. The title suggests this is a list of F1 fatalities, so Senna should be the last name on this list. Change the article's title to be "Those who died in an F1 car" and you more accurately reflect the content.Dobyblue (talk) 17:59, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

You've highlighted the problem – all these guys did die in F1 cars. You mean you want to change the wording to say something like "drivers who died in current F1 cars while they were current F1 drivers". I'm not sure how encyclopedic that would be. Bretonbanquet (talk) 19:27, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Ronnie Peterson

Do we need a note that Peterson died the day after the accident and the cause of his death was actually an embolism which poisoned his blood? Lemon martini 22:47, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, according to the guidelines specified by Skully Collins in the "Notes" section above. So, I've added one. Note that I didn't go into a great deal of detail about the exact cause of death. DH85868993 08:16, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I think we could wind up with a forest of notes if we need one for every case where the driver was pronounced dead only after being taken to hospital. At a quick glance that would apply to Mark Donohue and Ayrton Senna as well, for instance. -- Ian Dalziel 12:33, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Likewise Sturt Lewis-Evans, who was flown back to the UK after his accident and lingered several days before succumbing to his burns. Mr Larrington (talk) 21:07, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Jules Bianchi

should be added? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 191.190.102.67 (talk) 01:43, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

After reading the above statements -wich I found reasonable- about Villota not being included on the list, I believe adding Jules, who died 9 months after the accident, could be also read as "complications derived from the crash" and thus shouldn't be on the list. Either both or none should be the consensus here. 83.32.135.31 (talk) 12:26, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

No, because de Villota recovered from her accident to a degree whereby she was able to lead a relatively normal life, albeit only for a few months. Bianchi did not recover to any menaingful degree, and therein lies the difference. Bretonbanquet (talk) 12:27, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

Agree with Bretonbanquet. CtrlXctrlV (talk) 12:29, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

I agree as well; the situations are clearly different. However, there should still be some modification of the table as there's no indication he didn't die AT the race but rather 9 months later. Thoughts? Embowaf (talk) 23:12, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

Hmm would your suggestion cause more problem than it's worth? Only because is it easy to specify when someone passed away? Just thinking of Senna's example where there's debate that he died on track but was resuscitated a number of times (conspiracy theory says it was to aid the organisers as, under Italian Law, the event should have otherwise been suspended fortwith) for a period of time after the accident, until his death in hospital. CtrlXctrlV (talk) 03:51, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

I think it might be a good idea to get the page semi-protected, till the edits following Bianchi's death subside. NapHit (talk) 17:43, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

A similar request was made for the Jules Bianchi page but nothing came of it. It is needed in both articles. CtrlXctrlV (talk) 17:49, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Not exactly what I mean though. The table says at the top "List of people who died during a FIA World Championship race weekend, or elsewhere while driving a Formula One car" and by that definition, Bianchi shouldn't be included. But that's not really what I'm arguing. I DO think that Bianchi should be included and that Villota should not, but I also think that the structure of this article, the way it's laid out doesn't really work. For instance, the table, as it is right now, is the meat of this article, and yet it is not a "List of Formula One fatalities" it's more of a "List of Formula One fatal accidents." I think for this article, the distinction that was brought up (whether Senna died on track or at the hospital) is largely unimportant. He definitely died as a direct result of the injuries he sustained in the crash, and was never stabilized nor was there really any hope of survival. With Bianchi, he was definitely alive for a significant portion of time and yet also definitely died as a result of the crash. But he was stabilized, and while it was unlikely, there was still some hope of some sort of recovery for a significant time. Someone reading the table would think the two were similar; they both appear nearly identical in the table. Yes there is a note for Bianchi, but that's not really great at actually conveying the information easily. Embowaf (talk) 00:03, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Until recently, the list was called "List of Formula One fatal accidents". It was unwisely moved, and there's a section below here aimed at trying to think of a better title. I think the inclusion criteria should be very carefully worded to clarify exactly why we're including who we're including, and why we've excluded everyone else. How this got to be a featured list, I'll never know. Bretonbanquet (talk) 21:38, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Move suggestion: List of Formula One driver fatalities

Following the recent renaming of this article (which I have only just noticed), I think it implies even more strongly that the list should contain details on marshals, spectators etc. who were killed as well. I know that this is clarified in the introductory text, but I think it might be worth making this fact even more explicit by amending the title itself. Any thoughts?—Midgrid(talk) 14:42, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

I started a conversation at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Formula One#List of fatal Formula One accidents but there was little interest. I considered moving it to List of Formula One driver fatalities, but didn't get beyond thinking about it. I'm not keen on the title as it stands. Bretonbanquet (talk) 14:47, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, that just goes to show how little I am involved in Wikipedia these days!—Midgrid(talk) 14:50, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

Haha, it's OK, you didn't miss much! Bretonbanquet (talk) 14:54, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

I think your suggestion for the article's title is much better. The current title really makes it look like we should include people like Paolo Gislimberti, Graham Beveridge and Mark Robinson. Tvx1 14:36, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

That was my thinking. The title as it stands looks like it should cover those marshals and also spectators as well, as they could also be seen as "F1 fatalities". If there are no objections any time soon, I think we should rename it. Bretonbanquet (talk) 21:32, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Actually, it could still include drivers like Harald Ertl and Carlos Pace, as they were F1 drivers who suffered fatalities, just not while racing. This was my objection to the very unhelpful move made recently. It was far more descriptive before. Bretonbanquet (talk) 21:35, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Given that the article was moved without prior discussion, I suggest we move it back to the original title (List of fatal Formula One accidents) for the time being, so that the at least the title and scope match while we consider the matter further. We've been debating the most suitable scope and title of this list for a long time, so I'm not especially hopeful of a resolution that will make everyone happy any time soon. Having said that, if there is widespread support for "List of Formula One driver fatalities", I'd be happy with that, although it does introduce the ambiguity mentioned above by Bretonbanquet. DH85868993 (talk) 09:57, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

On second thought, since the article has been moved, the text and headings have been revised to characterise the article as a list of drivers and/or fatalities rather than accidents, so perhaps "List of Formula One driver fatalities" is the most appropriate title for the article in its current form, the slight ambiguity identified by Bretonbanquet notwithstanding. DH85868993 (talk) 12:55, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Only time i did mention fatalities of none drivers on this list (i.e in notes below) is when someone dies along with the driver like Von Trips's accident or Tom Pryce As none driver fatalities are more vague if there is no driver involved, I wouldn't exclude the idea that some death happening of none drivers could also been result of other factors than just the race itself, but there some websites that attempt to cover these kind of deaths was well so maybe link to those websites would be wiser idea than including none driver fatalties here when the completeness of those information are unclear. DoctorHver (talk) 22:02, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Given that there's some ongoing discussion here recently, I'd like to suggest that the criteria for the list are rediscussed a little bit. John Dawson-Damer, Fritz Gltaz and Denis Welch are currently listed and counted for statistics purposes (number of fatalities by country etc) but they were never Formula 1 pilots, they're people who happened to die while driving old F-1 cards, but that's all that connects them to F-1. They're counted as Formula 1 fatalities without ever having started a single official F-1 race. Maria de Villota unquestionably died as a result of injuries suffered during official (although private) tests for F-1, and she's excluded from the list with the argument that "she recovered before dying several months later", which frankly seems like a bit of a strange logic to me. Non-pilot casualties like the spectators killed in the Von Tripps accident, the worst in F-1's history, are currently left out of the list, but you could definitely make an argument for their inclusion. Other cases are even more controversial: Bill Vukovich died during a race that did count towards the F-1 championship, but can he really be considered a F-1 pilot? He clearly belongs among the Indy fatalities instead. Anyway, I don't have enough of a clear view about what criteria should be used to actually go ahead and edit the list, but right now I feel the final result is a little inconsistent. It would be useful if people would discuss this matter again and figure out some coherent guidelines to the list. 177.32.45.72 (talk) 23:45, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

Personally I feel the list should just include those who have died while in a F1 race or a test. Other than that I agree with what you say above about people being included because they died at the wheel of an old F1 car. NapHit (talk) 14:53, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

Well I took the initiative of editing the article and removing Dawson-Damer, Glatz and Welch, since in my view they're out of place in this list. I have no problem at all if anyone decides to revert due to feeling they should indeed be listed. There may be older similar cases that I'm unfamiliar with, I removed the three most recent amateur drivers that I knew for sure were never professional F-1 pilots. May these three gentlemen rest in peace. 177.32.45.72 (talk) 19:23, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

Until there is a consensus to change the list inclusion criteria, please leave the list as it is. This is (as it stands) not a list of fatalities in Formula One. It is a list of drivers who have died either while driving a Formula One car, or as a direct result of an accident while driving a Formula One car. That's why people like Taylor and Bianchi are included, and de Villota is not. There is no pretence at just including drivers who participated in Formula One. Vukovich (since you mentioned him) was an Indy driver, but he died during a Formula One event (as well as an Indy event). This list was not compiled at random, and is a featured list, so changing the criteria without a good consensus is simply a non-starter. Bretonbanquet (talk) 19:28, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for enlightening me about the criteria for the list, Bretonbanquet. Now I understand a bit more clearly that this List of Formula One fatalities is not a list of fatalities in Formula One, but a list of people who died while they happened to be inside of a F-1 car, or as a result of something called "direct result", whatever that is, of an accident that took place while they were inside such a vehicle. These seem to me like some perfectly fine and elegant criteria.

Pardon me if I digress, but I'll tell you what I was looking for when I came by this featured list. I was seeking information about Formula One's history. I wanted to learn more about fatal accidents that took place through F-1's past. Now I'm sure this is an eccentric search, and most people who show up here may be instead looking for a list of gentlemen who happened to die while they were inside a F-1 car, but for weirdoes like me, who come here looking for an article that will provide them historical information, it seems to me that these absolutely great criteria have a couple defects:

a) They end up providing imprecise information, because this list mixes things that are part of the category's history with things that are alien to it. John Dawson-Damer, God bless his soul, was surely a perfectly fine and wonderful gentleman. But he just as certainly is not part of Formula One's history. Suppose I want to know which country has lost more pilots in this sport. Again, my information is going to end up imprecise, because the numbers displayed here include people who aren't part of F-1's past.

b) People who come over with the incautious belief that this article will provide them historical information may end up mislead into taking incorrect information as the truth. Maybe someone sees John Dawson-Damer's name (God bless his soul) right in the List of Formula One fatalities, between Senna and Bianchi, and will get out of here convinced that there was a Formula One pilot called John Dawson-Damer. This is false information, and something an encyclopedia can't risk misleading people into believing.

Now I'm aware that different people may come across the same article for various purposes. I think that, for people looking for accurate info on the past of the most popular motorsports category in the world, the current criteria end up doing a bit of a poor job. 177.32.45.72 (talk) 23:53, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

I've never been a fan of that page as it's name I feel is misleading, when it said List of fatal Formula One accidents - When I first read it years ago, I thought it would say Ayrton Senna as the most recent driver to die, then the marshals that had died. I don't think people who died in an F1 car should be in the same list if it wasn't a part of the World Championship Event. Maybe we could split it into separate pages; List of drivers killed driving an F1 car and List of people killed at a Formula One Event or rename the page and have several lists on that page for example a page called List of Formula One related deaths with three lists, Drivers killed in a Formula One Event, Drivers killed outside a Formula One Event and List of personnel killed at a Formula One Event. Hope this helps. CDRL102 (talk) 17:16, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Splitting the list within this article is actually not a bad idea I feel, wonder what other people make of this? NapHit (talk) 17:40, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

We'd never get away with splitting this article into separate articles, but splitting this article into sections is something I've suggested before. The problems that then arise are the (surprisingly difficult) naming of the sections and the near-impossibility of fulfilling a complete list of spectator / marshal deaths at F1 races. This list only really functions as a strict list of accidents that happened to be fatal, rather than a list of deaths. Bretonbanquet (talk) 21:09, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Maria De Villota

Not to be indelicate but if, as initial Spanish reports suggest, the sad death of Maria is as a result of complications from the injuries sustained in her accident, does that get added to this or is there some kind of time limit? Duds 2k (talk) 18:53, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

I totally agree. Sadly, Maria should be added to this list. Autopsy has confirmed her death was related to her 2012 crash. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.36.84.162 (talk) 09:03, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Just wondering how this affects the article lead, which makes mention of there being no driver deaths since Senna in '94, with a note clarifying that two deaths since then were not related to the World Championship. How does this incident fit into that, given that it was in Championship related testing, but not an actual race weekend? AJCham 10:22, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

It doesn't fit at all, as she wasn't driving the car at the time of death. Deaths occurring within a day or two can easily be added to the list, but the number of drivers who have died because of complications long after the accident is rather high, and I'd say beyond the scope of this list. Extending the list to cover those drivers would need a consensus. Bretonbanquet (talk) 17:32, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Just a note aimed at avoiding edit-warring. Adding de Villota to the list will require a change to the list criteria, and as it's a featured list, we will need a consensus here before that can happen. Bretonbanquet (talk) 18:00, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Most of them don't fit then. I doubt that all the drivers who are featured on this list were killed instantly. Take Ronnie Peterson for example; he died the following day in hospital due to complications from injuries sustained from the accident. You know who else did? Maria de Villota. The criteria is worded very poorly, and it's a mistake that I am going to correct now. TheBronzeMex (talk) 18:14, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Actually they do. Most were killed instantly, and Peterson died in the night following his accident. I don't know what part of "we will need a consensus" you didn't understand, but I can repeat it if you like. This is a featured list, and it doesn't matter if you think it's "fucked", we'll have a consensus here before changing the criteria. Unless maybe you can add all the other drivers who have died as a result of accidents – changing the criteria requires editors who can then update the list accordingly, or else it's just an inaccurate mess. Bretonbanquet (talk) 18:22, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

The list also includes Lorenzo Bandini who died 3 days after his crash, and John Taylor who succumbed after 5 weeks. Whilst de Villota's case may be on the extreme side relative to these, it is nevertheless a Formula One accident which was ultimately fatal. When adding her to the article I didn't think to seek "consensus for changing the list criteria", as I was not under the impression that her inclusion was contradictory to the existing criteria. Can I ask for clarification on what exactly is the differentiating criteria that includes Taylor but excludes de Villota? Using only the length of time between accident and death seems too arbitrary (what would the cut-off time be?), so I assume that's not it. In which case is it the fact that de Villota had made an apparent recovery before later succumbing to the injuries? AJCham 19:29, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

He claims in saying that Maria shouldn't be on the list because she did not "die driving a Formula One car". However, Maria's inclusion was unintentionally contradictory as she didn't die at the wheel, she died after the accident which should be given leeway in the criteria. It's a bit ridiculous to want to wait for a consensus for what is an error that needs to be corrected. To forbid these changes means having to getting rid of multiple drivers including Ronnie Peterson (who died the next day) and Gilles Villeneuve (who died later in hospital) whose exclusion from the list would be ludicrous. And by the way, Breton, I don't appreciate your passive-aggressive behaviour and needlessly sarcastic attitude. If you're going to debate with me, you damn well better act with maturity if you want me to take you seriously. But I'll wait for your consensus, seeing as you're so hell bent on it. TheBronzeMex (talk) 19:43, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

To be fair to Breton if there is an error that needs to be corrected, it is reasonable to seek consensus on the best way to correct it. I only disagree with the interpretation of the criteria that says someone dying later as a result of the injuries is materially different from someone who died instantly or in the following days in hospital. Now that I think about it, I'm not sure of the assertion that "the number of drivers who have died because of complications long after the accident is rather high" - I don't profess to be an expert, but I'm not familiar with any other cases like this, and would be curious to learn of some examples. AJCham 19:54, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Firstly, I'll take no lectures on attitude from someone who called another editor a "fool" in an edit summary. If you want to treat people with disdain, you can expect the same treatment. TheBronzeMex, I recommend not repeating comments like those because they are dangerously close to a personal attack, something you've done already. Waiting for a consensus is not a choice you get to make – changing the criteria to a featured list requires a consensus, and there's no alternative if the changes are not unanimously supported.

The difference between de Villota and the others: Peterson, Bandini, Senna and others who died within hours or a few days is that they never recovered from their injuries. Some were in a coma throughout and all of them lingered horribly with little or no chance of survival. These accidents were undeniably fatal. Taylor is a slightly different issue, as he did survive for some time after his accident, but he never left hospital and never made any kind of recovery. His inclusion does stretch the criteria, but he is almost always included in lists of driver deaths in F1. De Villota effectively recovered, and to call her accident a "fatal accident" by putting it on this list is a nonsense. Her accident led to her death but she clearly did survive it by a considerable length of time, and she recovered to a significant degree, indeed to the point where she was able to lead a fairly normal life. Regarding the number of drivers who died due to complications from injuries received while racing – in many cases it is practically impossible to determine exactly why someone suffered a heart attack or developed cancer, so inclusion or exclusion on this list would be somewhat arbitrary. We know about de Villota's cause of death because reporting is far better than it has ever been, and it was a high profile accident. As for other drivers who may or may not have died as an indirect result of a Formula One accident, maybe rather than the number being high, I should have said "impossible to tell". Regazzoni is one example who we will never know for sure, as his disability may or may not have directly caused his road accident.

This list is not a good one for lots of reasons, how it ever got to be featured I'll never know. It receives a considerable number of complaints regarding who is included and who isn't. But with the wording as it stands, I don't believe de Villota should be included. All of the drivers currently on the list died as a direct result of injuries sustained in F1 accidents. De Villota's death was an indirect result of her injuries, as shown by the length of time she survived and the level of her recovery. Obviously if consensus goes the other way, then the wording can be changed and it becomes some other kind of list. The title would also need to be changed (probably a good idea anyway – "List of Formula One fatalities" or something) as hers was not a fatal accident, although her injuries ultimately caused her death. Bretonbanquet (talk) 23:19, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

On her article it says: "An autopsy confirmed de Villota had suffered a cardiac arrest, with it being believed that the underlying cause may have been a 'detachment of brain mass' as a result of her 2012 accident." This means that she did not die from her injuries in any direct way and link is not fully confirmed (and probably can't ever be). This was after she survived the accident and led a normal life, minus one eye. She really can't be included here. To do so would be like including a driver that got a broken leg in an racing accident and died a few months later falling over during his recovery. Including her here is not what should be done. —Gyaro–Maguus— 00:20, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

I'd say that de Villota's death is similar to Swede Savage. He died from a bad blood transfussion a month after his accident. Although the accident is the root cause, it is not what actually killed him when he finally died. de Villota's death was caused by a brain issue, even though that issue was caused by the accident, the accident is not what killed her.

To put it simply, if I a crash, and had a heart attack because of it, then had another heart attack a month later because of the weakened heart, the accident wasn't the cause of death. It was part of the chain of events leading up to the death, but it was not the actual cause. The³5₉ (Talk) 00:57, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I guess we'll have to agree to differ on this then and await further input from other editors. As far as I'm concerned the fact that she died as a consequence of the accident makes it a fatal accident by definition, and neither the length of time elapsed nor the apparent recovery prior to her death preclude it being a direct rather than indirect cause. Hence I maintain that her inclusion on the list does not contradict the established criteria, based on the drivers already listed.

There is however the issue that the lead desciption contradicts the list's contents (with or without de Villota). It was back in 2007 that the description was altered to indicate that the people named died "during an event" or "while driving". It had previously read "died as a result of a crash...". The list was never changed to correlate with this change, and it has continued to list those drivers who died later, albeit with footnotes to explain the discrepancy. This to me seems a significant oversight, and I am quite astonished it has persisted for over 6 years and 2 successful FL nominations - it wasn't even mentioned when the article was delisted from featured status in 2010. I would be very much be in favour of this being rectified with the wording amended to more accurately describe the list as it is.

Now I understand that it is no small thing to change the inclusion criteria of a featured list, but for me this list was promoted to featured status despite having two contradictory versions of the inclusion criteria - the one described in the lead, which would exclude Taylor etc., and the criteria that had actually been applied in practice, as evidenced by their continued inclusion and lack of any significant call for their removal.

I do share some of the other concerns that have been raised over the years by other editors, such as whether to include non WDC events and the omission of non-driver fatalities, but those are discussions for another day.

To summarise my position: I do not wish to change the list criteria at this time; only the wording in the lead which I feel is an inaccurate reflection of the criteria which have actually been applied in practice. I hold that de Villota meets this criteria for inclusion. AJCham 01:23, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

I am also in favour of adding Maria to this list. It will of course require an qualifying footnote but the cut off seems too arbitrary. She was an active test driver, employed by the team driving a current car. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ‎139.133.151.17 (talk • contribs) 2015-07-22 09:03

While I agree that those are the circumstances of the crash, as stated above the crash did not directly result in her death. -mattbuck (Talk) 10:04, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

"Directly result in death", as argued within this talk section, seems to be the argument that an exotic fatal complication after the accident is not akin to a death "directly" as a result of the accident. I would perhaps be able to counter that Ronnie Peterson died of an exotic complication which arose after his relatively benign racing injury. A broken leg, then death of organ failure caused by a fat embolism which was at best a secondary effect of the crash. Maria died of heart failure due to dislodged brain matter from the crash injury. Although the timeframe is different, the circumstances are qualitatively identical. I would further point out that nobody seems to be arguing against Ronnie Peterson's inclusion, and that his disinclusion would be absurd considering the prominence of his death and his universal inclusion in any discussion of F1 fatalities. Should we remove Peterson or add De Villota? I think that the first option would make the list a bit farcical, but we need consistency. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.185.40.58 (talk) 13:21, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

The difference is that de Villota has not simply "died from complications to the injuries sustained in the crash". It is only believed that she did. It hasn't been proven at all. It's pure speculation. Therefore we cannot include her. Tvx1 17:35, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

Correction: Mark Donohue's fatal accident was in a March 751 chassis, not a Penske P1

Penske Racing's F1 team utilized two chassis ("cars" term used in this article) during the 1975 season; the Penske-built P1 used in rounds 1-9 and 14, and the March 751 used in rounds 10-12, round 12 being the 1975 Austrian GP in which Mark Donohue's practice crash proved fatal (Penske did not enter a car for the round 13 Italian GP). Support documentation includes the ESPN UK F1 story originally cited in this page's reference [9] for this entry [5], the official F1-Fansite [6], and several other Wikipedia entries including 1975 Formula One season, Team Penske and Mark Donohue. Please replace the erroneous entry of "Penske" with the factually correct entry of "March" or "March 751" in row 38 (Mark Donohue), column 5 (Car) of the "List of drivers killed as a result of an accident during a Formula One World Championship event, or during a non-championship event while driving a Formula One car" table. 164.66.212.129 (talk) 15:45, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

Updated. Thanks for letting us know. FYI, you would have quite welcome to update the article yourself - Wikipedia is "the encyclopedia that anyone can edit". DH85868993 (talk) 11:30, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

Inclusion criteria

It's been a long long time since I joined a Wiki discussion, so please forgive me if this is in the wrong place. F1 is a dangerous sport, and I think you could get easily distracted by too many distinctions. This article should be a unified one on all deaths in Formula One. That seems like something which would make everyone happy. I don't get why people are insisting only WDC drivers, or only Drivers, or only drivers killed instantly, should be on this list. Every driver killed in a F1 race from the first in 1947, should be included. It's invidious to exclude them. The FIA standardised the GP regulations in the premier class to one formula..or...Formula One..in 1946. EVERY Driver killed in a race, heat/qualifying, or practice session for EVERY F1 race should be included. At least 3 died between 1947 and 1950. Why are people against this? Additionally, why are people opposed to citing drivers who MAY have died from complications of an accident they had even years earlier? There is NOT, contrary to what some are claiming, THAT MANY. Vilotta and any other could have their own small list. Also, Marshals, other officials, and spectators, where that information is available, should be mentions, and linked through to their own list. There should also be a broader definition here, say "This list is a list of all drivers killed racing in Formula One races, since it's inception in 1946, including the world drivers championship, non-championship races, heats/qualifying, practice sessions and testing. It also includes a list of all persons killed in a Formula One care competing in other events, such as hill climbs or demonstrations, or national series such as British Aura series, if they're cars still met F1 regulations, or it was a sanctioned national F1 series. Also included are drivers who did not instantly die, but whose injuries later lead to their death, there is also a link to all other associated Formula One Deaths, as since it's inception, approximately X number of Marshals, Crews, other officials and spectators have been killed in accidents' This allows for every single driver killed in an F1 car, even held under the F1 banner, to be listed, it eliminates invidiousness, and is seemingly the best way to move forwards. Additionally, if necessary, it is possible also have a link like the one for the non-driver fatalities, to drivers who where famous predominantly for their Formula One careers, killed in other series. This would allow the inclusion of people like McLaren and Clarke. I am struggling to understand why there is anyone who has issue with this, can anyone explain to me why some drivers matter more than others? Why Drivers from Pre-1950 F1 or those who died from injuries they initially survived, do not count? Maria Di Vilotta left hospital, another driver didn't? Mark Donohue appeared to recover from his head injury, but didn't, the effect on her brain compared to his was different, but both lead to death. Could sexism be at play? This is all logical and self evident to me, and as an avid fan of the sport, I am deeply concerned about people taking a scalpel to definitions and slicing this and that way to make it fit their narrative. EVERY driver who died, instantly, or later, driving in a F1 car, in any forum, or an F1 rated event, from 1946 onwards, SHOULD BE HONORED AND LISTED. Additionally, I feel it's in the public interest and worthwhile giving details of deaths where possible. There seems to be some degree of uncertainty there. Basilar Skull Fractures, for example, have their own Wiki entry, and motor racing is cited as a particularly common cause, pursuant to this, all drivers on this list, killed by one, should have it noted, in their entries, as well as in their own biographical pages. This applies to all causes of death. I am lost as to why all I suggest here hasn't already happened. -: Apis4 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Apis4 (talk • contribs) 09:59, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

As the text above is the latest contribution to the discussion of inclusion criteria, which have been debated since the creation of this article, I'd like to share my preferences/thoughts right below it:

A list of non-driver deaths should be added likely incompleteness notwithstanding (see above).

WDC-related fatalities (caused by F-1 cars, F-2 cars, or Indy cars having been driven in World Drivers' Championship events, in non-championship events, or during tests in preparation for aforementioned events) should be listed separately from other fatalities (including those caused by F-1 cars having been driven in F-1 events held before 1950 or domestic F-1 series events), which themselves may need to be separated further.

A list exclusively showing WDC-related fatalities should apply the same inclusion criteria to deaths in F-1 cars which occurred in 1952/53 that it applies to deaths in F-2 cars which occurred in 1950/51 and since 1954. If such fatalities are to be added only if they occurred in joint F-1/F-2 events (as is the case with Gerhard Mitter), Cameron Earl would not be part of that list as he was testing an F-1 car in 1952. On the other hand, if the testing was conducted in preparation for a joint F-1/F-2 event or even in preparation for the 1954 season when the WDC would be run to F-1 regulations again, one could argue that Earl should be included.

The title of the article would allow Carl Scarborough's inclusion now that it refers to "Formula One fatalities" rather than "Formula One fatal accidents." Cases such as his are covered by Motorsport Memorial's "Criteria" for what it's worth. John Saphir, who is not a WDC-related fatality, died of a medical condition as well, a heart attack. [7]--Fluidfellow (talk) 01:15, 14 September 2016 (UTC)