Talk:Kingdom Come: Deliverance

Codex Wikilinks

Hello! I've formatted all real world entities listed in the KCD Codex into a table found here. I think I've linked all relevant pages that have been created in other languages as well. I'm not sure everything would pass notability guidelines, but it could be a fun project for anybody interested! Mbdfar (talk) 04:31, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

The current state of the "controversy" section

We can see from this talk page that there was a very lively disagreement about this when the game was new. Now things have died down and let's look at what's on the page.

> "Some publications and websites accused the developers of "whitewashing" for not including a noticeable amount of people of color in the game in the fifteenth century in Central Europe, and for the game's portrayal of Cumans and Hungarians as cruel invaders.[35] The developers responded by asserting that the game is historically accurate since people of color did not inhabit early 15th-century Bohemia in significant numbers.[36]"

Citation [35] simply does not support the previous statement. It is an essay on the game in which the word "whitewashing" never occurs, making the quote an outright lie. Moreover, at no point does it make any assertion accusing the developers of *anything* for not including people of color. It includes one paragraph reflecting on the developer's own arguments about the racial composition of the game (making the next sentence a lie as well; [35] is a response to the developers' assertions, not vice-versa). All that paragraph says is that the developers' statements suggest a set of historical-narrative priorities. It doesn't even analyze that aspect of the game, just talks about what the developers have been saying about it.

I'm not going to comb through the articles history and try to figure out how it got to this state, but at the moment, it is selling a lie as a #gamergate narrative. There is no citation supporting the victim complex of being "accused of whitewashing" etc. --69.113.166.178 (talk) 04:18, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Frome the reference 35:

the threat of continued violence from foreigners hanging over the land all the while.

None of these outsiders, from Hungarians and Germans to Cuman raiders, come off well.

to pillage the land with a force of even more exotic, Turkic barbarians as his cavalry. Our first glimpse of the latter sees them attempting to rape a local woman

The Cumans are a constant source of fear in the game. Henry refers to them in an early conversation as “diabolical barbarians from the East with no regard for the rules of warfare.” Others call them “heathen dogs” or “savages.” The player is assured, by one character, that, even though “all armies” will “pillage, rape and slaughter,” it’s the Cumans who “take pleasure in it.”

Conversations surrounding the game have rightly centered on statements made by Warhorse Co-Founder and Creative Director Daniel Vávra that, in the name of historical “accuracy,” it was important that the cast not include people of color. The suspicion, given the murkiness of the historical record regarding a rural stretch of medieval Central Bohemia’s demographic make-up, is not just that it’s possible that non-ethnically Czech people could have been present in a “historically accurate” game, but why excluding them is so important to Deliverance’s take on history. The only reason that seems to fit is that Deliverance selects from the past what best serves an exclusionary, xenophobic vision of Czech history – one that considers ethnic and linguistic minorities a historical detriment.

I think the phrase you dispute fairly well summarizes POV of that article. However, you may of course propose better wording (if you consider "whitewashing" OR). Pavlor (talk) 06:19, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

It absolutely does not summarize the article. It is, in fact, a bald-faced lie about the article. Can you tell me why the word "whitewashed" is in quotation marks in the article? It's not because it's a quote, for example. I can guess one reason: Sometimes authors use quotation marks to indicate derision towards an entire concept, as if you'd never hear it out of their mouths so they're quoting the abstract mob. Can you think of any alternative reason?

The cited article simply does not do any of the things this wikipedia article says it does. This passage is at present a simple falsity. It does not accuse the developers of whitewashing.

An accurate summary of the article might be something like "One publication noted the lack of nuance or depth in the non-Bohemian characters, and criticized the developers' stated priorities with regards to the game world's demographics".

Those are two true statements about the linked article. Rather than a simply false statement, with made up quotation marks, attributed to "some publications and websites". 69.113.166.178 (talk) 19:37, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Well, this is simply the most sanitized summary of any article I ever read. I like it... however, I don´t think such a reading was the intention of the author of said article. Pavlor (talk) 07:33, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

"The son of a blacksmith"

The wording should be changed, because Henry is not actually the son of the blacksmith. How can this be accomplished? Leroy Patterson IV (talk) 23:51, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Its explained in plot section. Keep it as it is... 91.127.227.143 (talk) 09:07, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Whitewashing?

Almost all references to Vavra's pro-Gamergate positions and the game's popularity among the alt right, which were all supported by reliable sources, are gone. These were all highly notable points raised against the game when it was published. What happened?

More notably, the gamergate ties have been reduced to a vague euphemistic sentence that doesn't really say anything. Observe: Some of these publications also reproached the views held by the game's director Daniel Vávra, who has been a vocal critic of progressive bias in video game journalism. These are terms the people behind the Gamergate harrassment campaign used to describe themselves. It's not an objective or neutral, let alone accurate framing of what they did and what their positions are. Why is wikipedia allowing this? 46.97.170.32 (talk) 11:58, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

That is the current consensus. There were endless discussions about this and other similar topics (see history of this talk page). As of now, this article seems to be somewhat balanced (in my humble POV). Pavlor (talk) 05:20, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

A consensus that is 4 years old. During those 4 years, the academic and journalistic consensus on Gamergate has consolidated, and we now have a more accurate and objective understanding about it, their tactics, dog-whistles and true agendas.

The four years have also gave us plenty of time to understand these people's usage of terms such as "historical accuracy" and "faithfulness to the source material" as dogwhistles for "no POC, no LGBTQ representation and no women in leading roles". Critics have pointed out the lack of people of color in spite of the fact that they were present in the relevant geographic location in the relevant time period - the source supposedly refuting this is a single nebulous claim by a german publication that isn't even listed at WP:RSP that supposedly asked the opinion of historians from "insert big name institution here". To say nothing about the fact that a cursory glance at the game's laughably unrealistic and idealized portrayal of the life of medieval serfs is all you need to understand that contrary to it's selling point, KCD doesn't care about historical accuracy, any more than as a dogwhistle to the most unsavory crowds.

Pinging @Sangdeboeuf:, @PeterTheFourth:, @Grayfell:, @Doug Weller:, @Aquillion:, @Grandpallama:, @Axem Titanium: @Pavlor:

You have all participated in past discussions on this talk page, and/or are people who in my experience are subject matter experts when it comes to Gamergate, Comicsgate and other internet culture war stuff. I believe this is something that requires your input. 46.97.170.32 (talk) 09:19, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

In hospital liver surgery with pain. Doug Weller talk 10:07, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

I've been meaning to come back to this at some point but have been busy with irl things. I agree that a 4 year old consensus is worth revisiting. I would recommend posting at WT:VG to draw a wider audience. Many of them have done tremendous and thankless work patrolling Talk:Gamergate (harassment campaign), which I haven't the constitution for. In the meantime, here's the Rock Paper Shotgun article I've wanted to incorporate somehow for a while. RPS is a trusted, reliable source and another RPS article is already cited on the page. I believe there should be no problem using this source, according to the guidelines on NPOV. Axem Titanium (talk) 17:58, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

I have only a dim memory of this particular incident, but looking at the article now, I see several problems. The subsection title 'Criticism from gaming media' is both too vague and also loaded. Most of the previous section is already on criticism, so placing this here seems like a WP:CSECTION problem. The over-use of "some" in these paragraphs is also telling and reads to me like subtle WP:WEASEL wording. But what jumps out the most is the phrase ...a vocal critic of progressive bias in video game journalism. I would go so far as to say this is a WP:PROFRINGE violation. Grayfell (talk) 20:06, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Well, those parts are easily fixed (the source doesn't support them at all.) But we need better sources for this in general if we're going to say any more - the existing sources aren't what I would consider great. EDIT: A quick search turns up a lot of higher-quality sourcing. I've tossed some obvious citations in, but the whole section should probably be rewritten to reflect scholarly coverage - right now we have a huge paragraph in the middle devoted to opinion pieces from non-experts, which is hardly ideal. Also, based on those sources, the section is backwards - the reason for the controversy is that the writers claimed the game was historically accurate, which attracted attention and criticism. Media that portrays Europe in that era as ahistorically white is hardly uncommon, but in this case the devs came out swinging arguing that it was about historical accuracy. The section inaccurately implies that the criticism came out of nowhere. --Aquillion (talk) 08:43, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

I may not understand correctly (my English is quite weak). Your "high quality sources" claim early 15th century countryside of Bohemia was far more diverse than today? That would be certainly a fringe opinion. As far as I'm aware scholar criticism of this game centered around portrayal of some groups in the game (women, Hungarians, Germans, Cumans etc.), not absence of other groups of people (eg. black people). Eg. one of the sources (Bostal, Martin (2019)) you used for claim "the developers' overwhelmingly white portrayal of fifteenth century in Central Europe and of Cumans and Hungarians as cruel invaders was historically inaccurate" doesn't give such definitive opinion (it is far more nuanced: "Of course, the game itself is only covering 16 square-kilometers and their absence seems historically logical. However, the controversial statements of game director Daniel Vávra appear problematic, as he was affiliated to the Gamergate controversy, a movement which criticized cultural diversification in video games and media censorship back in 2014. Whereas this allegations are well-founded or not, the game does frequently depict foreigners as negative characters" and ending with "On the other hand, the game may be considered as showing an uncompromising view of racism during Middle Ages, which is an interesting but dangerous historical topic to feature in a cultural product."). Pavlor (talk) 13:23, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

The sentence before the one you quoted says "As a matter of fact, the game only features white population while there is some evidence of Moors in that region at the beginning of the XVth century." Also there are two citations to that sentence. In McCarter's piece, "[to Vavra] it was important that the cast not include people of color. The suspicion, given the murkiness of the historical record regarding a rural stretch of medieval Central Bohemia’s demographic make-up, is not just that it’s possible that non-ethnically Czech people could have been present in a “historically accurate” game, but why excluding them is so important to Deliverance’s take on history.". @Aquillion: Thanks for adding that source. If you have others, I'd be happy to help incorporate them as well. Axem Titanium (talk) 16:42, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

What region? Central Europe? Kingdom of Bohemia? Prague proper? Crucial is the following part: the game itself is only covering 16 square-kilometers and their absence seems historically logical. To date no book/study about medieval demography of Bohemia considers people of color (whatever that means in this context) worth of note. Horrifying is, we take comments of some journalists about medieval demography as undeniable truth, but nobody bothers to find out what is consensus of actual scholars in this field. There are even entire journals devoted to such topic (eg. Czech: Historical Demography; ISSN 0323-0937). Pavlor (talk) 18:03, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Martin Bostal is an archaeologist and historian with a PhD in medieval history. Are you sure you're not too close to the subject matter to discuss this dispassionately? You're using some very heated language here. Axem Titanium (talk) 18:17, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

I applaud use of such study (which is a really good source we need - also covering several other interesting aspects) in this article. What I don't like is original research - as I demonstrated above, Bostal's opinion towards this issue is far more nuanced, so this source doesn't support the claim it is used for ("the developers' overwhelmingly white portrayal of fifteenth century in Central Europe and of Cumans and Hungarians as cruel invaders was historically inaccurate"). Note Bostal is not expert on medieval Central Europe, but his field of study is more than useful for our needs (a historian interested in games, reenactment and medieval history, perfect!). Pavlor (talk) 19:34, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

You're really moving the goalposts here. First you ask for a historian instead of a journalist. Then you ask for a medieval historian, which is what Bostal is. Now you're asking for a medieval historian specializing in Central Europe. I think you're misunderstanding the core issue here. Citing a hypothetical textbook that discusses the demographics of 15th century Bohemia on this page to refute a source would be original synthesis because it is drawing a conclusion that isn't made in the sources. We work with the sources that we have. We need sources of the exact type that Bostal is providing, which explicitly draw the comparison between the game and what they know of the history. Axem Titanium (talk) 21:41, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Bostal is a perfect source, but he doesn't claim what you want to include. On the one hand he admits the absence of people of color seems historically logical, on the other hand he gives broader context of Vavra's comments during the Gamergate controversy. It is a well balanced text in this regard. As of textbooks about demography of medieval Bohemia, I presented one few years ago and its use was rejected as OR (fair enough). However, this means ignoring scholarly consensus and presenting fringe claims as a fact.

There is also one interesting aspect entirely ignored by all sources (so of no concern to us anyway). Portrayal of medieval times in Czech popular culture is uniformly white, only Vavra's association with the Gamergate controversy/harassment campaign ensures this game gets more attention. There were even allegations in the Czech press (sadly I can't find the article right now) that Vavra is deliberately nurturing controversy around Kingdom Come to get even more publicity. Pavlor (talk) 05:42, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

This is a very poor argument. As long as there's a non zero chance for people of color to appear in 15th century bohemia, however unlikely, writers can use that as a hook to justify having people of color in the stories they write, set in that place and time period if they wanted to, without breaking the historical autenticity. Emphasis on the "if they wanted to" part. 46.97.170.32 (talk) 08:24, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

You can take this from the other side. Why should they? If this game were a Wikipedia article, the authors/editors could only write what is in the sources, no original research like you are demanding. Of course video games are a piece of fiction, so the authors can do pretty much what they want with the sources.

Mentioning sources. I did a brief research in the "Bibliography of the History of the Czech Lands" public database and to my surprise there is only one article covering this game: "Neumann, Miroslav. Representation of Medieval Realia in PC game: Kingdom Come: Deliverance. In: Czech-polish Historical and Pedagogical Journal / Brno : Masaryk University Roč. 11, č. 2 (2019), s. 69-76." (article available online: [1]). The author of said study was then a PhD student of Comenius University in Bratislava Faculty of Education and the study itself covers mostly use of weapons and armor in the game (somewhat shallow for my taste). However, there are some interesting points: absence of crossbows and gunpowder weapons and portrayal of Cumans (based on an article on medievalists.net by Imre Bártfai,a Ph.D student of the University of Hagen), who should not speak Hungarian back then. Pavlor (talk) 18:49, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for finding that source. It took a while, but I was able to incorporate that and a few others today. I also found this source which I haven't quite absorbed yet, as it's pretty long. There seem to be more out there as well! Axem Titanium (talk) 05:00, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

Well done! However, I would certainly not use Reid McCarter (Unwinnable) and Andreas Inderwildi (Rock Paper Shotgun) for statements in that paragraph. McCarter calls Mr. Zeman Anti-EU, which is somewhat weird (Zeman was the first president to raise the EU flag over the Prague Castle), so his understanding of Czech reality seems to be limited. Inderwildi gives broad statements over religious life in the early 15th century Bohemia, which doesn't seem to be his expertise (note in 1403 Hus' career was at its beginning). Pavlor (talk) 07:04, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

Then the game is inaccurate for even including him as a well-known figure in 1403. Zeman seems to be a mixed bag on EU. Regardless, I don't think it's productive to do our own rebuttals of sources. Let other sources address them. Axem Titanium (talk) 09:10, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

Hus was known among the elite then. He was already a dean of the faculty of arts and started preaching in the Bethlehem chapel. However, these examples seem to be a nitpicking about minor inaccuracies used in this article only to support an impression the game is also inacurrate in an aspect our fellow editors really care: absence of persons of color (which is historically accurate). Taking Bostal (which I think is one of the best sources in the article) as an example: he is used in the article mostly to give some support to "historical inaccuracy" claim concentrating on minor paragraph at the end of his longer study and ignoring most of the text, which evaluates developers' decisions in aspects like topography, architecture, swordplay, use of languages or depiction of religion. Ending with a conclusion: But Kingdom Come: Deliverance does remain a game. This involves compromises to its gameplay and a certain interpretation of History. However, considering its success, it is assured that it will preserve its identity of the most accurate game based on medieval period. Historians can be pleased that aiming for historical accuracy, even with flaws, does emerge into mass-consumption industry such as video gaming. This is a general feeling his study gives, which is something entirely ignored in our Wikipedia article. Pavlor (talk) 10:11, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

"Of course video games are a piece of fiction, so the authors can do pretty much what they want with the sources."

Exactly. Which is why it's extremely suspicious that Vavra would be so adamant on "muh historical accuracy" when it comes to people of color in medieval europe, which wouldn't be as inaccurate as some would like to believe, but is willing to take liberties everywhere else, permitting much more glaring inaccuracies. That it is specifically the existence of people of color where he draws the line is - let's be as charitable as possible here - not a very good look for him, or his target audience.

Several dozen times in just the past couple of years, the gamergate crowd has been invoking "historical accuracy" and "respecting the source material" whenever non white people appear in any freshly released media, followed by harrassment and death threats targeting people involved in the project, in particular actors and actresses of color. Since Vavra openly and willingly associates with the exact same crowd, he doesn't really have a lot of plausible deniability. 46.97.170.32 (talk) 08:38, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

I don't take as given that absence of persons of color is historically accurate. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Bostal's main thesis is that historical sources are always incomplete and people doing historical reenactment (which he contends that historical fiction is an example of) always fill in the gaps with their own biases. The bulk of his paper comprises examples of that fact, which I did not feel the need to reproduce in my summary. Young goes further to say that the pursuit of historical authenticity necessarily gets contaminated by the audience's expectation for what that authenticity looks like (and the creators' possibly unconscious desire to meet that expectation). Both of them commend the game for pushing back against Hollywood stereotypes of the medieval age while acknowledging that it is impossible for them to recreate unbiased historical truth. Axem Titanium (talk) 19:59, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

I don't think there's much to be gained from arguing over this. In a work of fiction, a writer can usually permit themselves to add anything that isn't straight up impossible for a time period, without breaking historical accuracy. The real wuastion is, why is Vavra so adamant on invoking historical accuracy to defend the lack of people of color, while being more lax when it comes to glaring inaccuracies, like the Cumans speaking hungarian - let alone a modern day variant with modern day words and expressions. 46.97.170.32 (talk) 08:45, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Language choices can be explained (and are so in the sources we have) as sensible concession to make the game more accessible to today players. There is no such need in case of inclusion of people of color (other than to please people outside of the target audience). Sure, they could include some lost travelling merchant, who strayed from his way to a major southern or western European market (note Prague was outside of "major" trade networks, not entirely a periphery, but not a target of traders from far far away - exceptions aside of course). However, there is one group of people entirely ignored by all sources: the Jews. Jewish people could be present in the rural countryside of Bohemia until the turmoils of the 15th century (they concentrated in major towns thereafter), but certainly nobody sane would create a videogame exploitable as a pogrom simulator. That would be a real controversy, unlike the "controversy" we argue about right now, which is mostly about our own prejudices. Pavlor (talk) 09:45, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

"There is no such need in case of inclusion of people of color (other than to please people outside of the target audience)."

Am I supposed to infer from this that you don't believe people of color are part of the target audience? Because that's what this sounds like. 46.97.170.32 (talk) 11:14, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

I think if we are all relatively satisfied with the state of the section in the article, then we do not need to further litigate claims on the talk page, unless there is a new source you would like to get included in the article. This is WP:NOTAFORUM. We are not here to convince each other of facts. I put about 10 hours of work into research, reading, and editing to produce the changes from Friday. I'm not interested in blowing that up. I think the section, as it exists right now, speaks for itself. Axem Titanium (talk) 17:49, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. The section was somewhat improved and there seems to be some consensus (at least a consensus by silence). No need to continue such discussion on a NOTAFORUM territory. Pavlor (talk) 05:19, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

I believe Vavra's views and behavior needs a separate section from "historical accuracy". 46.97.170.32 (talk) 11:48, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

DUE and BLP are two terms coming in mind... Pavlor (talk) 11:56, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

No they are not. I said nothing about inclusion of new material. I specifically said that the paragraphs refering to Vavra's behavior and his support of the gamergate harrassment campaign, which are already in the article, and supported by reliable sources (so WP:DUE and WP:BLP are not an issue) to be split into a distinct section because they have nothing to do with criticism of the game's "historical accuracy". 46.97.170.32 (talk) 09:25, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Another section is UNDUE (maybe on Vavra's own article?). Note this section started as the "Controversy" section you are looking for. From my POV, our current section is the right place for Vavra. As of BLP, we must be careful not to claim a guilt by association. Pavlor (talk) 10:51, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Vavra's actions in response to the reception of this game, and his pro Gamergate views do are connected to the game's reception, but do not belong under "historical accuracy", but they DO belong in the article because they are relevant to the subject. 46.97.170.32 (talk) 12:14, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Vavra's views clearly influenced his decision to emphasize "historical accuracy" in the game design (regardless of whether we think he achieved that). Pragmatically speaking, I think that makes the GG paragraph sufficiently relevant to keep in that section while also avoiding a section header with the word "Controversy" in it, which tends to attract trolls. I think that paragraph is a little weak compared to the rest of the section, so I wouldn't be opposed to 1) explaining in more detail what those views are as they related to historical accuracy, based on the techraptor interview, and 2) what publications' criticisms of him are on that basis. The Kotaku article I mentioned before might be a good place to start for that, if we have a new local consensus to reinclude it. Axem Titanium (talk) 17:01, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. 46.97.170.32 (talk) 09:46, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Kingdom Come: Deliverance and the aesthetics of authenticity

Cook, J 2024, 'Kingdom Come: Deliverance and the aesthetics of authenticity', Journal of Sound and Music in Games, vol. 5, no. 2, pp. 23-48. https://doi.org/10.1525/jsmg.2024.5.2.23 (pdf).

I found this work while researching academic citations of the the website "Dark Side of Gaming". (see the discussion about that website's reliability.) The main part of the article is about Jan Valta's work, but Cook also discusses historical accuracy and performance in general in the article, and he sees the score and historical re-enactment as related. Cooks doctoral thesis was on Fifteenth-Century English Mass Cycles,(university page) so I imagine he is qualified to discuss history to some extent. Also in terms of the point I added to the article using this source, it really isn't such a deep analysis. He makes a pretty obvious point in my opinion which is that Henry isn't a regular peasant, and his recognition is basically completely due to being Radzig Kobyla's son. He discusses the idea of authenticity more than I quoted him for so perhaps other ma want to read it.J2UDY7r00CRjH (talk) 09:26, 26 July 2024 (UTC)