Talk:Kapu (caste)/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

References are a must

Do not delete the CITATION NEEDED tag without providing references (provide book name and page number). Do not make claims without references. If you cannot provide references, delete the sentences from the article.

During the Vishnukundina dynasty, Kakatiya dynasty and Vijayanagara dynasty, Nayaka or Naidu was a honorific title given in recognition of the position held or services rendered. Provide references since when did it become a "caste title"? --= No ||| Illusion = (talk) 10:00, 2 February 2010 (UTC)Mayasutra

Provide references

1) Provide references for every claim made in the origins sections. Don't just claim that it is written in so and so book. Provide the source, page number and tag the references number to each of those claims / lines.
2) If Telugu script is mentioned wrt some details, providing a small translated note on it wud be a good idea.
3) There are too many photographs. Keep the more important or popular ones and delete the rest.
4) If the article needs to spin off with too many details on any one point, then make a new article for it, instead of dumping all information onto the same article alone.
The article looks like a dump yard and needs a lot of cleaning up. --= No ||| Illusion = (talk) 18:43, 28 January 2010 (UTC)Mayasutra

Sweety 24

You have deleted the Munnuru kapu and Turpu kapu sections of the article of you have unknowigly done this its fine.. But please donot repeat this mistake again without consiulting the rest of the members who have been involved in maintaingn this article for more than a couple of years now.. and iam panel1 i created this article and contributes to it and maintained it along with other members..

If you think Munnuru kapus or Turpu Kapu's are not part of the Kapu community substatiate your arguments in the Discussion section... these are the only two communities which fall under the BC-D category.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Panel1 (talk • contribs) 10:27, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Reply

• Here in wikipedia we state what scholars and historian have said in their books...this is not a research forum where u put details only when u have all the proofs..if that is the case the it would be impossible to fill anything in these article...here we are stating what scholas like Thurston,Sepuri Bhaskar,Suravram,Etukuri,Russell have stated in theri books along wiht references...so mentioning the same is not wrong...

Its up to the users to bring up proofs and says the true facts...So Kapunadu pls refrain from doing uncessary edits..Do refer Balija kula Chariatra and other history books before vandalsing this article John Rambo 02:03, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

1. This is nonsense, forget historians and all this supposition. The Raja of anegundi is the direct descendent of aravidu dynasty, his daughter is an MLA from Gangavati and is married to Alluri Soma Raju, who is a surgeon in Gangavati and is a Kshatriya Raju. The family says they are Rajus and only marry Rajus so stop this nonsense. Just take a trip to Hampi and ask around about the family, why waste your time reading theories. The most likely explantaion to the connection to balijas is that kings in the past used to have multiple wives and one of them may have been a balija while the other was a kshatriya, otherwise this whole thing about Chintalapati, and alluri being Balijas may have also been BS. So please stop putting the Aravidu dynasty and Krishna Deva Raya as Kota balijas, it is totally wrong and you look desperate and foolish, you even said that there is no evidence to prove it so why do you keep insisting on it?--Historyfreak69 (talk) 02:37, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

@@@ Dude whoever you are you got completely excited about some piece of information.The current ruler of Anegondi is a Kshatriya true.. But he is an adopted son... The original lineage or line of Kings that belonged to the royal fmaily of Vijaynagar are no more as they did not have a son to continue the bloodline... Please stop posting BS and verify your facts... Check the link....http://www.uq.net.au/~zzhsoszy/ips/a/anegundi.html

And how did the Rajus get into the Vijayanagar Dysasities which have Yadava,Bunt and Balija/Kapu background is .. Krishnadevaraya defeated the Gajapati's in order to make truce and not loose their kingdom the Gajapatis offered the pricess of the Gajapati Kingdom in allialce to Krishnadeva raya... She was the third wife of the Raya... this is how the Rajus stepped into the Vijayangar Dynasities...

Krishnadeva raya had two kids from his first wife a son and a daughter .. the son was blinded and killed by his minsters conpiracy while the daughter was married of to Rama Raya of the Araveedu Clan... hope this clears of all the doubts about Vijayanagar Kings... As a matter of fact the only real Kshatriyas who ruled Andhra were the Kalchuris of the Palnadu fame...

Rashtrakutas,Telugu Chodas,Kakateeya,Vijayanagar were all shudra kingdoms... The Rajus have matrimonial links to Chalukyas... and another kingdom that can be linked to the Rajus although no proofs are there are the Ikshvakus...

Apart from that Satavahanas,Vishnukondis,Brihaptilyas,Ananda Gothrikas,Eastern Chalukyas all of them are not Raju related... please donmt every make the mistake of ever cliaming them you will make a fool of yourself...

During his recent visit to Krishna Dt Srikakulam the current ruler of Anegondi mentioned they are descedants of balija Naidus the article is there in Eeenadu and andhra jyothi why would he do that ????

Here are the surnames with the gotrams of kapu's, compare them with the inscriptions state were the gotrams and surnames of the ruling clans:

• Surname:-------Kapu Gotra:-------Ruler gotras:
• Chodagam-------Pamidipandla
• Chodisetty-----Paidipala--------all telugu chodas were kasyapa and used chodaraju as thier surname
• Chodisetty-----Godavari
• Dalavayi-------Thammineni-------Atreya
• Kathari--------Pydipala---------Atreya
• Sammeta-------Varalakshmi----Atreya

Unless there was a mistake, there is no correlation between kapu/balija surnames and gotras and the ruling clans mentioned. So where is the evidence?--Historyfreak69 (talk) 18:37, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

@@@@@@ You are really turning on the heat dude and making all you postings a big joke...Kasyapa,Athreya,Vashishta are gothrams which are very much part of the Kapu community like Paidapaala and Janakula.. If you cant beelieve it get on to any marriage burea and check some brides and grooms andf you will see these Gothrams... And the Madurai Nayaks who are Kota Balijas (I hope you dont want to contest this ) surname is Garikepati and Gothram is Kasyapa... as another proof of the Kasyapa...

The Raju community doestn have a patent on these Gothrams... The only castes which share these gothrams are Kapu,Raju and Bramhins...(Reddys/Velams donmot have these) whch brings us to anohter question about the origins about the Raju caste itself most historians think it is a military section of the Kapus which got separated form the mother caste... Enjoy this piece of trivia...

Another price of very vaulable inforamation that you need to know is the Telugu Chodas mentioned themselves as Shudras... since when did the Rajus become Shudras.. ???

Stop dreaming and wake up ... stop claiming and please stop having the superiority complexion that you have... a small community like rajus cannot rule Andhra in the form of so many Dynasities it was the preserve of powerful indeginious Agragarian communities like Kapu,Balija,Reddy and velama all of them Shudras not Kshatriyas and all of them are proud of their Shudra Status... And if at all they every linked themselves it was to the Lunar Dynasity not the Solar to which the rajus claim to descend from...

Buddy do you have any idea how many powerful dynasities the Yadavas produced ???

Manu Dharma states that a person is not a Kshtriya by birth it is by occupation that is the reason most of them claim stauts of Kshatriya

Fuedal system

I think every caste was interrelated and drew from each other. Telugu caste system was more fuedal than the fundamental system found in the north. The fact that all these communites don't have very much difference in customs and genetics would support this hypothesis. This is what I think the feudal system of ancient Andhra was, based on all the various accounts of the functioning of the various castes.

• The farmer was called a Kapu
• The farmers were divided into a Pedda Kapu and a Chinna Kapu. (Big farmer, small farmer)
• Amongst the Pedda Kapus a Chief was picked.
• Amongst the Chinna Kapus, the soldiers were recruited.
• The ones that protected the crops = (Panta Kapu)
• The ones that protected the village = (Vurru Kapu)
• The one that protected the region = (Pranta Kapu)
• Amongst the soldiers a general (Nayak) would be picked.
• The Special Forces amongst the military were called Ayyaraka, Mudiraj, Ontari, Boyar, and Munurru Kapu, also some came from tribal communities.
• The financial leaders were called Shettys (Balija, Komati), tax collectors were called chouwdrys (Kamma). The Komatis seperated from the Balijas because they were influenced by fundamental Hinduism.
• The ministry was comprised of various members of the military (Nayak) and administration (Reddi, Velama), and financial leaders (Balija, Chowudry, Komati)
• As the territory controlled became larger the leader was called a king (Raju)
• When the kings who came from various backgrounds became long established or were influenced by the resurgence of Hinduism, in order to legitimise and secure their rule claimed to be Kshatriyas.

So I don't believe any of the castes, especially the dominante castes that are found today, originated in isolation. In the end we are all the same Telugu race. Our Telugu race was mentioned in the Mahabharata as Andhras, a mixed race tribe that originally lived around the Ganges and later migrated south of the Vindhyas, in the outskirts of Arya varta. I would urge people who write about the origins of their castes to keep this in mind and stop trying to claim to be connected directly to the Aryan tribes of the north. Not that we have no connection to them, its just that we have our own history and story, we have more influence linguistically, culturally and ethnically from our Dravidian ancestors than the Aryan ancestors. We don't need to keep saying we were Indo-Aryans who migrated to the south, it sounds silly, especially when you look in the mirror and say it. If anyone has a better explanation or disagree please share your thoughts and evidence for your views.--Kapunadu (talk) 04:06, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

@@@@@@@@@@@@ The kapu naidus are blood brother's of the Kunbis of Maharashtra,Kurmis of Bihar,Marathas,Patels of Gujarat... And if they are Aryans then so are we... Your are saying that andhra kshatriya rajus are andhras tribes but the ture history is that they migrated from rajasthan during 5th century and had some martial alliances with andhras gajapathi of vizayanagara belongs to geholt rajputs clan during war rajputs fought on gajapathis side some historians who those not know about andhra history are commenting eden western historian also said that rajus are look different from all south indian castes and tribes you cant write bullsuit i have also read that many westerners writing that dravidians are negriod and africans do you belive that search in google i have seen many sites that says that dravidans are negriod. and aryan dravidian india is a mix andhra bramhins are dravidian right do you know that northern bramhins are also more dravidian and scythic than aryan and look more like south indians yadavas are yadu vanshi kshatriyas yadu the man from which they came from belongs to kshatriya clan may be chandravanshi and they are also yaduvanshi rajputs in north india with family names jadeja indian are basically dravidian indian kshtariyas are more aryan because of mixer of persians,pathans.etc patels of gujarat are rajputs not kapus the only pure aryan are kashmirs and you what they are called dassis north indians including bramins are more scythic dravidian than aryan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.123.156.240 (talk) 21:21, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

references

My Dear friends why do you so much of hue and cry pon this issue. Please read the following link about the Sangama and Tulu dynasty people written by none other than the collector of Kadapa dt in 1850s :CP Brown (Also known as the writor of Telugu-English dictionary). Know that Sangama, Saluva and Tuluvas are Yadavas, Krishna devaraya himself had stressed this out.[1]

@@ The article does not say anything about Sangama,saluva and Tuluva dynasities as being Kapu/Balija... So your argument is irrelevant..It however doies mention Krishna Deva Raya might be a Balija but its not an established fact and there are no evidences for this...

• • If it is not a fact than why put it as a fact, Krishna Deva Raya was a tuluva, tuluvas are supposedly yadavas, how can he be a balija? why dont you just say that some historians think he may be, instead of saying yes he is a balija of dasi subcaste?--Kapunadu (talk) 11:58, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
• Thurston refers to the cultivating class as kapu vol 3 pg 5-6. Kampo is the oriya form of Kapu, agriculturalists. Pg 222 Kapus or reddies are the great caste of cultivators, farmers and squireens (a soldier in the service of a knight, often as his apprentice) in the telugu country.
• Vol 4 pg 2 kapu (cultivator caste) pg 138 kurubas were originally kapus, pg 261 kapu, reddi vokkaliga are cultivators, pg 186..the dommaras are divided into reddi or kapu (ie cultivators),
• pg 194…the following gradation in the social scale:

1. Velama dora= Velma esquire
2. Kamma varu= Mr. kamma
3. Kapu = plain kapu, without an honorific suffix

• Vol 3 pg 94, kammas are the military branch of the kapus, pg 223 the word kapu means watchman and reddi means king. The Kapus or reddis seem to have been a powerful Dravidian tribe in the early centuries of the Christian era…though their power has been put down from time to time by the Chalukyas, the Pallavas, and the bellalas, several families of Zamindars came into existence after the captivity of pratapa Rudra of warrangle.
• Subsects of Kapu

1. Bandi (cart)
2. Challa (one who eats old or cold food)
3. Chanipoyina (one who is dead)
4. Chilakala (paroquet)
5. Dandu (army)
6. Desur (territory or body of valor)
7. Dhoni (boat)
8. Gandikota (fort)
9. Gazula (bangle makers) Balija
10. Gorrela (sheep)
11. Gudisa (hut)
12. Guntaka (Harrow)
13. Kallamu (threshing floor)
14. Kukru (dog)
15. Kuncheti
16. Maddila (Drum)

Thurston classified the telugu castes based on oral traditions and casual observations. He was an imperialist who’s impressions were based on the Aryan invasion theory that a white race (indo-aryans) came and conquered the dark skinned race (Dravidians) and subjugated them. He worked under the pretense that the Aryans were distant relatives of his race and so they had a right to rule over India because that is what the white race is supposed to do according to their interpretation of the Vedas. So he felt that all south Indians including brahmans, were Dravidians and primarily sudras. This has been proven to be an error. However if you insist on quoting him as a resource his writings basically say that:

1. The lowest castes were from the austro-aboriginal tribes and the higher social strata was Dravidian.
2. Of the Dravidians the Kapus are farmers and agricultural laborers as well and landowners and are the base of society, some times known by their region (Turpu (east)).
3. They divided into traders (Balija), urban traders (Nagaralu), High ranking soldiers (ayyaraku patrudu), specialized soldiers (Telega) (Ontari (strongmen)), (Munuru).
4. The merchant branch of the kapus was the Balijas, and those who followed strict brahminical Hinduism became Komatis. Some Balijas telegas and kapus became Nayaks. The ayyaraka’s separated themselves.
5. Kapu meant watchman and reddi meant king.
6. The reddies and Kammas were the elite ruling- warrior branch of kapus.
   1. The Reddies only had one Kingdom that too during the 1500 A.D. and it was a small one... so what does the term ruling mean
7. He connects the reddies to the Rashtrakutas and the Kammas to the andhra local dynasties using mecknezies manuscripts.
   1. if the reddies are connected to the Rashtrkutas how are they related to the Kapus?? The Kapus claim descent from the Satavanhas only because they are linked to the migrating tribe of Kaampu or Kossars came to the Deccan in the same time as the Satavahana Kings appeared over the Deccan and ruled from the their capital Srikakulam in Krishan Dt which where this tribe was also belived to have settled and which Andhra Dynasity are the Kammas linked please enlighten us Mckenzie Manusript links the Kapu naidus to the Ancient Andhra Dynasities
8. The reddies had stricter social standards and became a separate caste.
9. The Kammas were originally warriors who considered themselves Kshatriyas but lost that status because they insulted a king and became high class farmers and warriors.
   1. Kammas were warriors there is not a single inscrition which predates the Kamma as a caste before 1252 AD and that was of Gangeta Sahini a commander in the Kakateeya Kingdom. Chalukyan Incsritions only mention Kampulu and reddi and use the term interchangeably for them they mention about Gouds and mudiraj and artisans and Bramhins the inscriptions donot menion about any caste called Kamma. They mnetion about kamnpulu being appointed as Governors with the title reddi. Chalukyas ruled from the East and West Godavari Districts. and if you check the surnames of any of the familes that have reddi in their Surname. 90% of them are Telagas here. What does this tell you. reddi and kapu was interchageably used for these communities its did not mean reddi meant the current day Reddy and kapu meant the current day kapu. Even today the number surnames carrying a Reddy is more in the Kapu/Telaga/Balija/Ontari/Munnur Kapu caste than the actual Reddy Caste. The familes carrying the title Reddy were appointed as Governors by the Rashtrkutas and Chalukyas. Just like the familes carrying the title Neni in their surnames were appointed as Commanders in the Kakateeya kingdoms. Neni is primarily found in the Kammas followed by the Kapu's/Tealagas and then the Velama Doras. These are very basics of Andhra History. Without knowing these please do not post.
10. These Kammas debated about the gosha system for women and those who wanted to get rid of it remained Kammas and those who wanted to keep it became Velamas.
11. The rajus are the elite warrior sect of the reddies, and Kammas and Balijas and the Bhatrajus were the court bards.
12. Except for the Nayaks, it was mainly the reddis, kammas, velamas and Balija sections that Thurston feels were linked to rulers.

• In Social Changes among Balijas (By Vijaya Kumari and Sepuri Bhaskar you leave out vital information such as:
• Pg. 87 Though balijas form the single largest community, they have very little political awareness. Their political activities are limited to villages. A few have risen to the level of state and central government. In order to have a systematic approach to this study let us view the political organization of the past, present and future.

The Past:

• This commmunity was almost in darkness in the political field from immemorial past. The population which settled in the town areas, chiefly were business oriented and never thought of any political move. The village population which mainly depended on cultivation, lived almost below the poverty level. Thus they could not imagine the political participation at all in the olden days. But they ere taking active part in the village level political organizations like, village councils, gram panchayats, et.
• There were instances wherein these pople acted as village officers like “Reddy” (tax collector). In Chittoor district we find the names with the reddy “tag”, for the reasons that they have done reddy jobs. In olden days there were instances of active leadership from people belonging to this community in the village councils. Though the village council is constitued with members from all communities in the village, (a considerable percentage) did not enjoy the leadership in the state of AP
• The general population due to its poverty stricken conditions was ignored from political participation. They lcaked political knowledge They have never had an opportunity to think about political positions nor aspire for political upliftment.
• The people were mostly agricultural laborers, who had no financial stability. But a few well to do families did participate.
• Before independence, in tanjore and madurai samsthanams, people from Balija community were merely soldiers and kothwals. They played a leadership role of nayakas which even today can be seen after their names as naidu.
• The nayak kings of tanjore and madhurai were from the dasi sub-sect. Traditionally the Balijas are engaged in agriculture and business. The caste people are mostly agriculturists and agricultural laborers in rural areas.

So if you are going to use Thurston or any of the others as a resource at least have the courage to quote all of what he says. You use a past wiki edit of rajus to prove that kapus were Satavahanas, come on people. Kapus have achieved a lot but making it sound like we were the dominant caste and simply forgot is not historically accurate. You could make this a very informative article, at least name the present descendents of these dynasties so we can have something to grasp onto but it is turning into a fluff piece with vague inferences. If that’s what you want to make yourself feel better about the past go right ahead, but don’t expect the rest of us to take you seriously. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kapunadu (talk • contribs) 17:47, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

1. The Book In Social Changes among Balijas (By Vijaya Kumari and Sepuri Bhaskar mentioned Ediga Balijas(Goud),Perika Balijas(Perikis),Surya Balijas(Kalavantula),Vada balijas(Fishermen),Setti Balijas Andhra(Goud) as belonging to Balija or Balija Naidu caste, which they are not and they constitue a huge chunk of the population in Rayalaseema and are not politically aware and backward in terms of Social Customs. If the balijas were so backward why the Govt callsify them as an Forward Caste. Do you want us to write this in our articles knowing its junk. So this section is ignore for obvious reasons and it does not appear in our article. Thurston was right only in a few observations so whateverver was genuiene was taken over into this article. Thurston Most of the time he mentioned about Reddis and Kammas being related to Kapu. Have you ever seen the Gothrams of any of these Castes If you see Kamma Gothrams and Kapu/Tealaga/Balija/Ontari/Munnuru Kapu/Turpu Kapu gothrams dont match even one bit. Hindu History is derived from Gothrams and the lineages are established based on these not on Surnames which are mere village names and Social Strata which is what Thurston went by when he went about composing this book Moreover Thurston did most of his work from Tamil Nadu and during the end of the Vijayanagar rule so you would obviously see him mentioning a lot more about Kapu being Reddy and Balijas and Kammas but not Telagas,Kapu,Ontari's who are much more medieval in their origins The article refers to Colin Mckenzie's inscritional Evidence and you of the Kapu communities relations to Ancient Andhra Dynasities. Anyway anything thats written in the article has good links being pointed. I dont understand what is the frustration thats drivinvg you so much and in saying the article is a fluff peice of article. Only because its brings out the Glory and the Golden Pages of the communities history. And your signature says it all you you have convinietly taken up a username to claim a pro community stand while writing out this junk here and wasting the bandwidth. --- Panel1
   1. Panel1, non of these statements come from me. They come from the very sources that some have used as gospel truth to make some of the statments without other varifyable sources. I don't need to explain thurstons observations. I merely listed all the things that he said. The same with the Balija article. I don't need to explain any of these. I notice that when i point them out you change the proclamations of Krishna Deva raya being definitely balija to it is just a theory. You also go from saying all the kingdoms were led by Kapus to that they were just generals and soldiers in them. So you basically agree that thurston got a lot of things wrong, if he was wrong about many of the basics of the caste than how can we believe about the dynasty connection. It is simply not possible for one man to know the history and origin of all the castes of India within a five year period of research. He is going to have a lot of errors so he cannot be used as a irrefutable source. Even Indian authors don't seem to know all the subcastes as seen in the social changes of bailijas. I know you are on a mission to only put good things in this project from the past postings and requests that you made, which is fine for a blog site but this is supposed to be a type of encyclopedia, which means a neutral unbiased accuount should be promoted. I just think if you look at the facts in a impartial way you can have a better understanding of Telugu History. I would say the same for the reddys, kammas, rajus, brahmans and vaishaya ect.. by the way non of your referrence links go anywhere!! I you don't get some valid refferences and have valid links to them, you are going to look foolish, Try and put more english links because this is an english website, if you only want to post telugu referrences it might be better to put this on telugupedia. articles.--Kapunadu (talk) 11:58, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Krishna Deva Raya

My Dear friends why do you make so much of hue and cry upon this issue. Please read the following link about the Sangama and Tulu dynasty people written by none other than the collector of Kadapa dt in 1850s :CP Brown (Also known as the writor of Telugu-English dictionary). Know that Sangama, Saluva and Tuluvas are Yadavas....... Krishna devaraya himself had stressed this out.[2]

Would someone please clarify how he is related to Kapus? He keeps being included under Kapus. While admitting that the araveetu clan was a Kapu clan, Krishna deva came from the Tuluva dynasty which was not from the kapu caste. So other than maybe a possible marriage alliance with a kapu individual how can he be a Kapu. I mean he did also marry a Gajapathi princes but that doesn't make him an Oriya? Pleas help me understand.--Telugubidda (talk) 14:11, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

@@@ We are not saying KrishnaDevaaya is a Kapu we only his surname is Sammeta which is found among Gollas/Yadavas as well... Its only a claim... the claim again is based on the fact that the Matti Rajulu of Cuddapah district Balijas are related to Krishnadeva Raya and his son in law Araveeti Rama Raya was also a Kapu..

Actually i dont think even the Araveetu clan is kapu. This family still exists and is honored by the Karantaka government. in fact if you o this bio site they clear say that they are a Kshatriya clan. (www.uq.net.au/~zzhsoszy/ips/a/anegundi.html). Now i am totally confused, who should i believe the living members of a dynasty or some author researching ancient inscriptions?--Telugubidda (talk) 23:54, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

@@@ Please refer to the press releasses of the visit of the the current zamindar of anegondi Araveedu dynasity and he was felicitated in Krishna District in Srikakulam where Krishnadeva Raya wrote his Amuktamalyada... He calls himself a Balija...

{{Vijayanagara empire}} Reply The Sangamas were Kanada Kurubas or Kurumas. People of the Kuruba community have long essayed a variety of professions, and have not been confined to their traditional sheparding. Kurubas are known by different names in different regions of the country:

1. Ahir
2. Dhangar
3. Gowda
4. Gounder
5. Kurumba
6. Yadavalu.

They do not consider themselves as Kapu. So obviously no connection with the Sangama Dynasty

The Saluva’s were founded by Saluva Narashimha Deva Raya. Saluva was not the family name. It was a title meaning “Hawk”. He declared that he belonged to the Kshatriya Varna of the Atreya gotra. The Royal family of Karvetinagram are the recognised descendents of this line. They state that they belong to the Kshatriya Varna, not Kapu, not Balija.

The Tuluva dynasty was founded by Narasa Nayaka. Tuluva comes from Tuluv or Tulu. They were Tulus. The same community as Sunil Shetty and Ashwaria Rai. Tulus don’t consider themselves in any way connected to Kapus or Balijas. Krishna Deva Raya was not part of the Aravidu clan, his half brother Achyuta Deva Raya’s wife was married to a Balija princes. The Tuluva dynasty died with Krishna Deva Rayas son Sadashiva Raya. So no direct connection with Krishna Deva to Kapus or Balijas.

Achyuta Deva Raya's wife’s family belonged to Balija royals and the families of Madura, travancore, Kandy and Gingee all married amongst themselves and were all Balijas but this was the only incidence of a marraige occuring with the Vijayanagar royal family. If you read carefully the geneolgy that was put together in this article and map out the relationships you will undoubtedly see how ridculously far they are from the ruling Vijaynagar clans. Has anyone even tried, I have. So no direct link this way either.

Krishna Deva’s brother in law Aliya Rama Raya usurped the crown from Sadashiva and founded the Aravidu Dynasty. The legally recognised direct descendent of the Aravidu (Narapathi) clan is Raja Achutya Deva Raya, Zamindar of Anegundi, who is still alive and is honored each year by the Karnataka government and on his personal biography states that he is of the Kshatriya Varna [3]. So no connection through this branch either.

So of the 4 Vijayanagar dynasties, one family came from the Kuruba caste, one came rom the Tulu/Bunt community, and two came from Kshatriya caste who’s descendents are still alive and fully aware of their history. So other than a single incidence of a marriage occurring with a brother of the ruler, at no time did Kapus directly hold the position of emperor of Vijayanagar. So it is complete bunk that Kapus ruled Vijayanagaram and comlete bunk that they are part of the Aravidu clan.

@@@@ You keep mentioning Khatriya caste can you mention which caste is this ??? They are definitely not Rajus of Andhra??? Are you saying they are Kannada ???

There however is irrefutable evidence of Balija Kapus working as governors for the empire in Kandy, Gingee, Travancore, Chandragiri, Penugonda and Madura, and as independent rulers after the empire fell, at least until the 17th and 18th century when the Moghuls and Marathas took over. This is something to be proud of but it is crazy to go the extra step and say that they ruled the entire empire. It has been a few hundred years since they held power so better to move on.--

Reply

Mr Andhra your are not consistent in your analysis...once u said that the Tualvas belongs to Yadavs or Kuruba community and next you are saying that they descendents now are claiming they are he is of the Kshatriya Varna ....One thing you must be aware is that communtites intermarried all across the ages and intermigled...For your information Krishna Deva Raya's mother is of Balija/Kapu origin...so claims that he has Kapu/Balija blood are not wrong....The article is written by refering other historical texts written by various authors like Social Chnages among Balijas - Sepuri Bhaskar ,Castes and Tribes by Edgar Thurston etc...John Rambo 01:48, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

• I don't remember that far back about what i said but think i am consistent with the Sangamas being Kurubas if said that Tulus were also then I admit to being wrong. I researched it further and that is how i came to this realization that The Tuluvas were not Yadavas, they are Bunts. But that still doesn't change the fact that tuluvas and yadavas are not kapus and krishna deva raya was not a telugu and he was not from the kapu community. I also happened to map out the geneology that was talked about from edgar thurston, which is what is post on the article and found no relationship with Balijas. His half brothers wife was a balija not krishna deva rayas. Please try this out, it may help. If you have proof that KDR's mother was a balija would you please post that information on the discussion page or direct me to where i can read about it. If its true then that would just make the discussion more enlightened and i will except the facts.

• Also I don't believe KDR was a Kshatriya, the facts don't show that. He was a tulu and part of the Tuluva dynasty not aravidu. this is also a fact. so he cannot be connected to kapus, unless of course you can provide some proof. I am quite interested in history and don't particularly care about caste affiliation. It is just frustrating when there is weak information. As far as the Saluva clan is concerned how do you ignore the fact that they proclaimed themselves Kshatriyas and the karvetinagram rulers continue to claim descent from them. Are the current members kapus or balijas who claim they are kshatriyas? what is their family name? do they marry kapus or balijas I don't know much about this family if you do please let me know. And the Arvidu family of Aenugondi claim to be kshatriyas, did you happen to go to his bio link, how do you explain this?. Their family name is pampapathi. do they marry kapus or balijas? If you have access to this info please share this with me because so far i'm lost about these issues. Thanks--Andhra (talk) 03:40, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Reply

Mr Andhra

• I have made changes to Kakatiyaa rulers in the article accordingly
• KDR is known a "Dasi Putra" he is born to a Balija women. Please refer the following text where the author refered him to have Balija Naidu descent.

Reflections on State-Making and History-Making in South India, 1500-1800 Sanjay Subrahmanyam

• KDR maintain close relations with Balija/Kapu Naidu Nayaks and married many of them in their families to them and he also assigned them governorships to far flung areas of Tamil nadu and Andhra pradesh.So Kapu(Balija Naidu/Telagas) having royal association with the Vijayanagram Kingdome and being the primary ruling clan of the Kingdom along with other clans like Kammas,Velamas is irrefutable that is what the article is trying to convey.The Tamil Balija Nayak dynasties are the remnants of the Vijayanagar Kingdom after the defeat at Talikota.No where in the article there is a mention that Vijayanagar Kingdom belongs only to Kapus(Balijas/Telagas etc)

John Rambo 04:07, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the Chalukya

It is a known fact that the Chalukyas were native to the Karnataka region. Chalukya inscriptions address themselves as Harithiputras of Manavyasagotra, which incidentally is the same as their early overlords, the Kadambas of Banavasi. This makes them descendants of the Kadambas. Regarding the caste to which the early Chalukyas belonged sources claim they were of Kshatriya caste.

Eastern Chalukyas

Pulakesi II (608 – 644) conquered the eastern Deccan, corresponding to the coastal districts of Andhra Pradesh in 616, defeating the remnants of the Vishnukundina kingdom. He appointed his brother Kubja Vishnuvardhana as Viceroy. On the death of Pulakesi II, the Vengi Viceroyalty developed into an independent kingdom. They were Kshatriyas. Their dynasty lasted for around 500 years from the 7th century until c. 1130 C.E. when the Vengi kingdom merged with the Chola empire. Eastern Chalukyas were closely related to the Chalukyas of Vatapi (Badami).

As far as administration, the territory was parcelled out into many small principalities (estates) held by the nobility consisting of collateral branches of the ruling house such as those of Elamanchili, Pithapuram and Mudigonda, and a few Kshatriya families closely connected by marriage ties with the Eastern Chalukyas and other Kshatriya and non-Kshatriya families who were raised to high position for their loyal services.

As for as the society, Yuan Chwang, who travelled in the Andhra country after the establishment of the Eastern Chalukya kingdom, noted that the society was based on hereditary caste system. Besides the four traditional castes, minor communities like Boyas and Savaras (Tribal groups) also existed.

The Brahmins were held in high esteem in the society. The Kshatriyas were the ruling class. The Komatis (Vaisyas) was flourishing trading community. The Sudras constituted the bulk of the population and there were several sub-castes among them. The army furnished a career for most of them and some of them acquired the status of Samanta Raju and Mandalika. Hinduism was the official religion throughout the Chalukya period.

So clearly the Chalukyas were not initially native to Andhra, they did not belong to the Kapu caste and they declared themselves of the Kshatriya Varna long before Raja Rajendra was born. They also seemed to enforce the caste system. Kapus freely admite that they are sath-sudras (upperclass sudras), so if the King was a Kapu why would he suppress them? And if they had declared themselves at the very begining to be Kshatriyas, why would Raja Rajendra have to justify his rule by stating he was a Kshatriya. They seemed to be doing just fine for a few hundred years. This is total nonsense, simply an overzealous group of people desperatly trying find a way to link this proud community to this clan with no shred of tangible evidence and simple loose associations with names etc.

Cholas:

The Chola Dynasty was a Tamil dynasty, which comes from Tamil Chola in Sanskrit and Chola or Choda in Telugu. Chalukya Cholas came about after Rajaraja Chola's daughter married prince Vimaladitya. Rajendra Chola's daughter was also married to an Eastern Chalukya prince Rajaraja Narendra.

Telugu Chodas:

The Telugu Chodas adopted the title Chola as a Honorary title and also to show the Fuedatory Status they had under the Chola-Chalukya and western Chalukya rulers. They were their trusted lieutenants and generals. The Choda Kings themselves were Sudras. They belonged to the Durjaya family. Five chieftains of Velanadu ruled over the country after which it was over-run by the Kakatiyas and became a part of their kingdom.

1. Velanati Choda claimed their descent from the illustrious Cholas of South India.
2. Renadu Chodas recognised the suzerainty of the Chalukyas of Badami.
3. Konidena Cholas were also a branch of the Telugu Chodas of Renadu
4. Nannuru Cholas were another branch of Telugu Cholas.
5. Nellore Chodas also claimed descent from the famous Karikala Chola.

Many warriors are slain in the battle of Palanadu between the families of Haihayas, and relatives and vassals of Velanati Chodas.

Its obvious that the Cholas were a tamil dynasty. Kapus are telugu not tamil. So no connection to Cholas. And since they have no connection to the Chalukyas they cannot be Chola-Chalukyas. As far as the Telugu Chodas, it sounds like they were either tamil chieftans settled in Andhra who claimed descent from the Cholas or they were local telugu chieftians who worked for the cholas then the Chola-Chalukyas and eastern Chalukya rulers. If they were Andhras it would be hard to understand why they would claim descent from a tamil dynasty. If they were Telugus who worked for the Cholas then they might be from the Kapu caste since they did claim to be of the Sudra Varna. I don't know if any Kapus have the family name of Durjaya though. The Haihayas were mentioned in the Palnadu charitra as being Kshatriyas and this reference shows they were not related to the Chodas so no connection with them. Also if the Kaktiyas were from the same family why would they fight with them all the time and why did'nt they reinstate them after they took over. The Kakatiyas seemed to favor the Velamas. As far as royal ranking is concerned it was the Chalukyas and subsequent Chola-Chalukyas that held supreme power, the Chodas were their vassals.

@@@@@ The Telugu Chodas were the first to adopt telugu and use Telugu Inscirptions they were powerful indegenous Agragarian communities and their Gothram was Kasyapa... and they were Shudra... which tmail Shudra community has Kasya as gothram and which telugu shudra community has kasyapa as gothram...Please stop stealing the very foudation of telugu history the telugu Chodas are pillars for telugu language...

Kakatiyas:

Who knows which caste they belonged too. Which ever one it was clearly a Sudra caste as they left inscriptions claiming this. But if they were Kapus why would the King entrust 25% of his land and 77 battalions to 77 Velamas as stated in the History of the Andhras, if he were of Kapu origin. wouldn't you think he would find suitable Kapus or Balijas to do this. Especially if according to this article they had been experienced in war and rulership since the time of the Satavahans? These are questions that need to be answered before you can go around spreading false information to a gullable audience. I know these are false truths becouse i actually took the time to link on to the supposed evidence that was listed under referrences. Half the links don't exist and half are links to past wiki postings and community based website info which cannot be taken seriously. So no connection other than as soldiers with the Chalukyas and as stated before no direct connection with the Vijaynagar kings and unanswered questions regarding the Kakatiyas, no link to the Cholas, possible link to the Telugu Chodas. So far the evidence points to being predominantly farmers and soldiers with occasional governs post, not supreme rulers.

Andhra (talk) 19:14, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Reply

Mr Andhra

1)If think if you agree that most of the present prominent agricultural communities in Andhra like Reddies, Kammas and Velamas are of Kapu descent..then you should be agreeing that claiming that most of the ancient kingdoms of andhra and deccan should have belonged to Kapus should be right...(Noted historians too have agreed on this)...I agree to the fact that Kapu is the mother of the all the agrarian castes..but due to religious and political differences they have separated out...Reddy till 20th century was NOT even considered a caste...it was a title only used by almost all major Kapu subcastes and other agrarian castes...just like the title Naidu...After independence just for political purposes Reddies of about 60-70 sub-castes !!! together about 7-8% AP population !!!(ridiculous really) have started making it look like a caste by intermarring,religious conversion,poltical affiliations and false propoganda.....So if there is a Reddy Dynasty that ruled parts of Andhra after the fall of the Kakateeyas then it should be a Kapu Dynasty !!!Prolaya Vema Reddy himself suggested that he is Pranta Kapu !!!....

• this is a silly argument i personally also agree that all the agrarian caste came from a common stock. But they did call themselves the reddy dynasty so if certain reddies want to claim it just let them have this one.--Andhra (talk) 03:40, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

2)Telagas should be the most ancient warrior clans in deccan and south india as the word telaga itself is derived from the root words Telingana and Telugu...So it should be easy to see that the Telugu warriors are called Telagas par excellance(Social Changes among balijas Sepuri Bhaskar) In Rajamundary there are Telagas who still have their ancient swords,armour in their houses(they are known as Merakaveedi Telagalu)...Telagas being the most ancient warrior clan is irrefuatble...

• I agree telagas were greater soldiers as were velamas.--Andhra (talk) 03:40, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

3)The article refers only to Telugu cholas and areas ruled by them NOT to the whole Chola dynasty...No where in the article is there is mentioning of some Tamil land being ruled by Telugu cholas..and also the surnames and gotras of some of the Kapu/telaga families in those areas clearly match with those of the Telugu chola kings..e. Konidena,Choda etc

• I agree they may have been Kapus--Andhra (talk) 03:40, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

4)The Kakatiyas are shudras and are from various agraian communtiites who fought together against muslim invaders...those who fought are from all communties like Telagas, balijas, Velamas, Reddies(i personally don't consider reddy as a caste.....rather its a title given primarily to Kapus who took up roles as village heads) Many of the chiefs are of Telaga/Kapu origin...You might be refering to one book History of andhras by Durga Prasad where he mentions names of clans who fought the wars and believe me many of the surnames mentioned like konda, dasari, adapa, adabala are in Telaga caste too...So this article does n't claim that all Kakatiyas are of Kapu origin BUT it only mentions some of the principle clans who fought the wars and were instrumental in uniting the telugus are of Kapu/telaga/balija descent...The evidence against this is Balija Kula Charitra(Kante Narayana Desai)...Kamma vari charitra etc John Rambo 02:30, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

• Well acutally if you look at the article again it lists kakatiyas under great social contributors of kapu ancestors so you are not being completely forthright about this. If you were it would not be listed as such.--Andhra (talk) 03:40, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Kapu history

The basic unite of Telugu society was and still is the village. Which ever caste comprised the largest landowning class dominated the village society. In villages that had majority of Kapus they dominated the social structure. Small and medium scale famers were the majority and referred to themselves as Kapu (Farmer). Amongst the larger landowners a leader was picked and was given the title of Pedda Kapu or Reddy. Amongst the rest, trusted individuals were picked by these Pedda Kapus to protect the village and called Vurru/Prantha Kapus. Others were picked to protect the livestock and called Panta Kapus. Those who also engaged in trade were referred to as Balija. The balijjas that engaged solely on trade were reffered to by the title of Setty. The Balijas classified themselves into trading guilts. These trading guilds referred to themselves by whatever product they specialized in; example those who traded in bangles were referred to as Gajula Balijas. Some of these traders were settled in large towns and cities and were called Nagaralu (City). Because of the wealth and influence enjoyed by the large landlords and merchants some were assigned territories to act as tax collectors and administrators by the ruling clans and given the title of Nayak which became Naidu. These Nayak positions were originally supposed to not be hereditary. Their primary role was to collect taxes and maintain an army that would be called upon during times of war by the ruling clans. However whenever the central government became weak the larger Nayaks declared independence and became hereditary rulers. This is how things functioned during times of peace.

During times of war the rulers would call upon the local farmers to join the ranks of the army. In the army amongst the Kapu community some members became specialist in certain types of combat and began to be referred to as Munnuru, Telaga and Ontari Kapus. A certain group of Kapus distinguished themselves during Vijayanagar times and were referred to as Ayyaraku Patrudus. Although they began to regard themselves as a separate caste. Some of the highly distinguished soldiers were recognized by the rulers and given posts as commanders and given the title of Nayak/Naidu also. After the battles were settled some were rewarded by being put in charge of territories and responsible for tax collection, administration and security. These Naidus were also initially supposed to serve for as long as the rulers felt they were effective. However they also declared independence whenever the central government became weak. They had their greatest influence in telugu society during the later chalukya, Kakatiya, Nayaka, Vijayanagar periods and had the greatest independent power following the fall of Vijayanagar and Tanjovur, Madurai, Chenchi, Kandy at least until the Moghuls, Marathas and British took over. Once the British came in the Reddys and Kammas began to gain greater influence due to the fact that they took to education and modern agricultural techniques earlier than the Kapu community. Once india became independent they further consolidated their influence by being more active in politics. This is how the Kapu community evolved and devolved.

Living in the past and arguing over which rulers belonged to which caste and putting blame on other communities is not going to improve the current situation. India is now a free market economy, we live in a competitive free market world that requires professionalism and competency. By getting rid of the licensing raj enterprising individuals have the opportunity to start businesses and improve their financial situation without having to deal with corrupt beurocrates. In this environment education is the key. No matter how many quotas are assigned if an individual does not dedicate himself to meet the standards required then the individual will eventually fail due to their inability to compete with the more competent. Once the individual has succeded he can bring up his family and then the group of successful families can help bring up the community. Once the community becomes successful then it will automatically enjoy the respect it is due, not by obsessing about what glorious past that may have occurred and certainly not by obsessing over what your neighbor is doing. Essentially you have to look to yourself to make things better.--Telugubidda (talk) 17:26, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Kapu article Standards

Pleae do not add surnames and copy paste eminent Kapus lists in this Page. It makes it ugly.Please contribute and stop delting the links in the article.I have carefully put the links here only to see that they are being overwritten by people who post... Please refrain from removing links...Also please contribute in History,Traditions and Customs rather than adding Surnames... and making it an indiscriminte list...---Panel1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Panel1 (talk • contribs) 08:10, August 26, 2007 (UTC)

Please refrain from adding surnames and gothras. There will be no end to it. Tejam 12:36, 8 August 2007 (UTC) The article is back to its original chaotic state. The material which was repasted is full of inaccuracies, contradictions, lack of citations, hype and illogical statements. The users who have carried out this reversion should see the other articles (Telugu people) to learn a thing or two.Tejam 10:50, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I will be working on the presentation of this article in order to make it more appealing its not in proper state. This article is being refered by many now so has be more orderly Thanks, John Rambo 23:38, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I have formatted the article and made it look clean.I have removed the bolded parts as its making the article chaotic.I have also removed the surnames of telaga as all surnames are present in the separate telaga article.Users can refer that article for more info reg surnames. I may further format the article in order to make the article more appealing and accurate. John Rambo 17:31, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Pls dont' add personal emails in the article ..Pagdala pls login into wikipedia for edits or discussions..

Surname of Madhura kings

It was noted that the surnames of Madhura nayaks were Alluri and Garikepati. These surnames are prevalent in Kamma and Velama communities too.

So ??? whats your point do you wannna claim that Madurai and Tanjavore Nayaks are Kamma...check some basic reference materials before you even start claiming...Are there any sources like these for your arguments... check below

Its clearly mentioned in Penukonda Charitra that Viswantha Nayakas Surname was Garikepati...and was a Balija ---Eddula Nandi Reddy...As did Edgar Thirston... And please search the Net on JSTOR etc Articles from Cambridge etc which are very clear about who were the rulers of Madurai,Tanjavore and Viajayanagar(Araveeti) [4],,,, [5] And if you want more please take a look at the inscriptions of Tirumla Nayaka in the Madurai Temple...

And recently the Madurai Balija Association celebrated the Birthday of Tirumala Naicker what happened to this so called Descendants Pemmasani Clan??? they did not seem to feature anywhere...

DID YOU GET ANY SINGLE INSCRIPTIONAL EVIDENCE TO WRITE THAT TELUGU CHODAS, RENATI CHODAS,POTHAPI CHODAS,KONIDENA CHODAS,VELANATI CHODAS, ARAVEETI DYNASTY, UDAYAGIRI DYNASTY, PENUKONDA DYNASTY, KORUKONDA DYNASTY AS KAPUS? KAPUS DON'T HAVE ANY DYNASTIES. DO YOU HAVE ANY INSCRIPTIONS SUPPORTING YOUR CLAIM ? WHAT EVER YOU WROTE IS FALSE STORY WHICH DO NOT HAVE EVIDENCE. ACCORDING TO INDIA TODAY KAPU POPULATION IS ONLY 15%. VIJAYA NAGAR KINGS WERE ALSO NOT KAPUS. EVEN ONE INSCRIPTION IS NOT TELLING THAT KAPUS ARE CHODAS OR VIJAYANAGAR KINGS. YOU ARE ASKING FOR INSCRIPTIONAL EVIDENCE FOR OTHER CASTES WHY DON'T YOU ASK FOR INSCRIPTIONAL EVIDENCE FOR KAPU CASTE ALSO?. MUNNURU KAPU AND TURUPU KAPU CASTES MAY NOT HAVE KAPU LINK. TIRUMALA NAYAKA VARDHANTI WAS DONE BY TAMIL KAMMA NAIDUS MANY DECADES BACK. 59.162.208.77 07:11, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Hello, I do not have to go over this again and again and mention who were what... You can rfer books like Andhrula Sankhspta Charitra for Telugu Chodas, PenuKonda Dynasity,Undayagiri Dynasity --- in penukonda chaaritra(Edula Nandi Reddy), Castes and Tribes of South India(Edgar Thurston), Madurai Nayaks(There are online links as well pasted in the article apart from that The Madurai Meemnakshi Temple has an Inscription which quotes Tirumala Nayaka writing down his caste name as Balija) If you want to go by vardhati's then his Birthday was done by Balija Naidus of madurai... Please dont try to bring this as Evidence... If Gandhi Jaynati is being celebrtaed in America would Gandhi become an American ???? Cut out this nonsense i can clearly understand your Knowledge levels about Kapu community when you say Munnuru kapu and Turpu kapu are not part of the kapu caste... Please go and do more Reasearch before you start posting you would be making a fool of yourself... I can understand there is a big difference when you are trying to learn and doing posts which dont make any sense...If some community does not belong to us we would know that... And we made a list of all Non kapu and Non Balija communites in our pages inorder not to confuse people..If Kapu's dint have any Dysnasities then there are no Andhra Kingdoms or Dynasities please be sure of that buddy... If you refer to Colin Mckenzie Inscritiosn Evidence he mentions all of Ancient Andhra Kingdoms are Kapu Kingdoms..... Satavahana,Vishnukundis,Ikshvaku,Chalukya...

I think he was more biased than the people who have written this Article We did not mention kapu community links to Other Dynassities because of lack of proper evidence... Thats why his articles are preserved in Chennai and British Libararies... Not like Articles on wikipedia from a Couple of Social Groupings who claim links to every other Dynasity...

BOOKS ARE NOT EVIDENCE FOR HISTORY DUDE KNOW THIS.... YOU CAN PRESENT SINGLE ( ONLY ONE INSCRIPTION ) IN SUPPORT OF KAPUS AS KINGS IN ANDHRA OR TAMIL NADU. THERE WERE MANY BOOKS WRITTEN BY MANY AUTHORS TELLING THAT SOMANY CASTES ARE BELONG TO VIJAYANAGAR EMPIRE, NAYAKARAJAS, CHOLAS. EVERY BODY KNOW THAT CHOLAS ARE TAMILIANS NOT TELUGU PEOPLE OR ARYANS. MADURAI TEMPLE INSCRIPTIONS ARE NOT TELLING THE CASTE OF NAYAKA RAJAS GO AND STUDY. 59.162.208.77 11:21, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Balija origin

Nagama Nayak and his son Viswanatha Nayak were Balija merchants. The father was the royal mace-bearer and the son was betel-bearer in Vijayanagar court. Both impressed the king with their loyalty and obedience. This information is available in two well-known historical books on Vijayanagar. Every Telugu should be proud of these Nayaks. The contributions of Tirumala Nayak, descendent of Viswanatha, are simply magnificent.

1. (http://www.archive.org/details/FurtherSourcesOfVijayanagaraHistory)

2.(http://historion.net/r.sewell-vijayanagar-history-india/). Nuniz says that Viswanatha Nayak was well-known as Betel Nayak during Vijayanagar times.Kumarrao 13:48, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Kapus -Present backwardness and political awakening among them

I have added a section to describe the present suitation of Kapus in India and the recent political awakening and changes that have taken place among them. The right to have proper representation in political and economical spheres are now being seriously considered by all. John Rambo 22:56, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Namaskar! How is it that a sensible leader like freedom fighter Pallam Raju (Original and senior) is omitted here? Please, please read history which is available in most libraries of Rajahmundry, Kakinada, Vijayawada etc. A few people from time to time are born in all castes. This resource must be put in such a way that it reflects true history. Just not that, people over lap and seamlessly integrate. I see there is too much of animosity generated which is leading to Caste wars. DNA proves that we are all one. Its sad to see the name of Tanguturi Prakasam's and other names omitted here. This team integrated several castes including the Kapu caste. Munnuru Kapu is totally a different caste by itself. kapu, reddy and kamma castes are heterogeneous in nature. I request one and all to take the sprite of contributions and sacrifices made rather than trying to find a royal linage. Kapu is an integral part of everyones life. Feel free to remove this , if someone finds it offensive. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Andhraking1 (talk • contribs) 11:47, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Added the present social chnages and political awakeing among Kapus

I have added section to highlight some of the important contributions of Kapus in the South Indian society and also the recent backwardness and political isolation the community has faced after independnce.The recent awakening among the members to assert themsleves and truely get its due on the economic and political front are also mentioned in the article.The emergence of an alternative poltical force in Andhra is strong among the Kapus than ever.John Rambo 16:58, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

John Rambo 03:58, 24 January 2008 (UTC) I have modified the part to exclude reference to other castes. Its not wrong to show case the decline of the kapus in the 20th century.Its a fact I have included this in order to show the readers the present suitation of Kapus in AP their lost glory and their recent political awareness among them.So PANEL1 request you to not delete this section wiki pedia article are for representing the facts as per the present political and economic senarios.It also mentions some of the political awerse ness,lack of leadership mong kapus as one of the possible reasons for not getting political power all these years.So this NOT biased and shows a clear picture of the political and economical suitation of kapus John Rambo 03:58, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Appreciation

I appreciate the efforts of Panel 1 and Rambo to refine the article. The article needs further changes. There is still lot of hype, needless info, erroneous inputs which lack historical evidences, improper use of English etc. In addition, Wiki is not a forum to discuss social and economic issues. One can only give the current picture. Rambo must sign his Username by using four tildes. You can notice it at the bottom of the page while editing a Wiki page.Kumarrao (talk) 07:41, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Social and economical issues

The section only shows the contribtuions of the community to the society which is very much required to showcase in these community articles. Present suituation of Kapus is also highlightened without showing any bias as the article agrees on the backwardness of some sections of kapus in the 20th century.This section only highlights and compares some of the social changes that have taken place in the community.I feel this is required for any community article.Recently there is a marked unity among all kapus and this article just highlights the same.John Rambo 18:11, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Article cleanup and rephrasing

I'm working on the article to remove spellings mistakes,formatting and repharasing of some redundant or repeated sentences.

John Rambo 05:39, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Sub caste section

How can "Kapu" be a sub caste of "Kapu". The description sound just like a repeat of the main cast, but who am I to know? Let's relook at the whole article. The Balija section is essentially a repeat of the separate Balija article, so ought to be cut down in size. I'll make some organizational changes and ask everone for comments. As Rambo noted, there is still a lot of copy editing to do overall.Vontrotta (talk) 10:06, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Cleanup

Significant cleanup was done. Do not revert. Hype, irrelevant stuff, unevidenced comments and self-glorigying remarks etc were removed. If the artcle has to have credibility, avoid historical untruths. Chalukyas, Cholas, Tanjavur Nayaks, Musunuri nayaks, Kakatiyas etc were not Kapus. If such information is inserted again it will be removed. Similarly, many sweeping statements lacking historic proof were removed. Keep the article a piece of reliable and dependable information.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.133.56.142 (talk) 04:50, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

There has been a lot of vandalism happening with this page recently . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.195.7.49 (talk) 15:57, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Reverted vandalism by 202.133.56.142

202.133.56.142 user had removed many significant parts of the article along with links and sources. I would request the admin to BAN 202.133.56.142 for making any further edits.The user has also done the same for other articles in wiki. So please dont allow any edits from the 202.133.56.142 John Rambo 03:50, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

In my opinion Kapu caste wiki is one of the best wikis rendering wealth of information to the reader about Kapu caste quoting excellent references.Unfortunately this particular wiki is targeted by some, may be with the sole idea of belittling the glorious past of Kapu caste(Balija Naidu,Telaga,Ontari).It is inexcusable particularly if people resort to SOCK PUPPETRY to further their cause in any wiki, not necessarily Kapu Caste wiki. It has become a routine for some to remove the valuable information from the article calling the information "DUBIOUS" inspite of the authentic references. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.81.203.17 (talk) 09:06, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Kapu/Balija and Reddy/Kapu disambiguation

There should be a clear disambiguation between two caste groups here. Kapu/Balija is totally a different caste from Reddy/Kapu. Even though both share some common names like Kapu and very ver rarely Reddy.

I would suggest a clear disambiguation to be mentioned at the start of the article. Reddy/Kapu can be redirected to Reddy Page or even the other way around.

Here are my assumptions

1. Kapu mostly means Kapu/Balija/Telaga except in Rayalaseema (its called Balija) 2. Reddy mostly means (more than 9x%) Reddy/Kapu. Reddy's identify their caste name as Reddy except in their certificates. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Indo.gypsy (talk • contribs) 08:07, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

For your information Reddies were an off shoot caste of Kapus. It was clearly stated in several history books that the local Reddy leaders were Balija Naidus but after some time some of this group started to diffrenciate themselves from the rest of the Kapu community. Kapus in some areas of Telangana and Rayalseema are still reffered as Reddies. Most of the Reddies of with same Kapu surnames are not Reddies they are Reddies only by name and most of them seek only marital alliances with other Kapus. So in other words Reddy/Kapu are Kapus that refues to differentiate themselves with the rest of the Kapu community after they became Reddies. Due to klanishness of Reddy community quite a few in all castes have used the name to rise up (exp Actor Rajashekar Reddy who is actually a Kamma. Whatever their certificate says is what they are actually and not what they say to the public. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.195.196.64 (talk) 21:59, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

VANDALISM

VALUABLE AND VERY INFORMATIVE WIKI ARTICLES ARE BEING RUINED BY A CERTAIN VANDAL . THIS VANDALIZING HAPPENED TO KAPU CASTE ,MADURAI NAYAKS,THANJAVUR NAYAKS,NAIDU, NAYAK WIKIS ETC RECENTLY. HOPE THIS WOULD NOT HAPPEN AGAIN. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.180.35.157 (talk) 09:46, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Images of famous Kapu (Balija/Telaga/ontari) naidu personalities

It is nice to see the images of some Kapu greats in the article and many thanks are due to the contributor for this important contribution. It would be great if pictures of other Kapu greats like S.V.Ranga Rao,C.K.Naidu, Kodi Ramamurthi Naidu, Tapi Dharma Rao Naidu, Kanneganti Hanumanthu Naidu,Raghupathi Venkaiah Naidu, M.Radhakrishnan Naidu (M.R.Radha), Rajanala Kallayya Naidu,Sobha Naidu,Manikonda Chalapathi Rao, Dasari Narayana Rao,Kaikala Satyanarayana, Allu Ramalingaiah , Kannamba,G.Varalakshmi, Devika,Krishnaveni,Shantha kumari, P.Pullaiah,Adinarayana Rao, B.A.Subba Rao and singer Jikki are added if space and criteria are not the constraints. What could be the reason for the removal of Sreekrishna devaraya's image by someone ?

Facts

• Kapus were not Aryans.
• Chodas were not Kapus.
• Tanjavur Nayaks were not Kapus.
• Kattabomman was not Kapu.
• Krishnadevaraya was not Kapu.
• Sarath Kamal is not Kapu.

Please verify facts and give proper citations.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.93.113.135 (talk) 07:26, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Historical Facts

Historical facts would never change even if some people drum beat against the very facts with the sole purpose of distorting the history.The Kapu(caste)site had given excellent references as to the affiliation of Vijaya nagar kings(including Srikrishnadevaraya),Thanjavur Nayaks, Madurai Nayaks, Katta Bomma Naicker and Telugu Chodas with Kapu castes(Balija Naidu/Telaga).I happened to meet a Balija Naidu person in Tamil nadu hailing from the place of Katta Bomma Naicker(Panchalankuruchi) a while ago who emphatically told that Katta Bomman was Balija Naidu and belonged to their caste only.Recently I heard from a friend in Bangalore that his close relative had matrimonial alliance with a descendent of Sreekrishna devaraya of vijayanagar dynasty as both belonged to the same Kapu/Balija caste.Though some people may dismiss the talk of these people as casual or superficial I would rather attach great importance to the piece of information that these people had given to me as this greatly butresses the historical facts from the genuine references that Katta Bomman and Krishna Devaraya belonged to Balija Naidu/Kapu caste.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Kapu (caste)/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

I have removed the other link of Emienent Kapus from Answers.com as the link no loonger exists. The one present with American Kapu Associate and Kapuvelgu.com are more elaborate.

Last edited at 06:49, 19 September 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 15:10, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 May 2016

In early 2016, the Kapus of the modern Andhra Pradesh state launched an agitation demanding the status of Other Backward Class, leading to violent protests.The Indian National Congress party and the YSR Congress party have supported their demand. However the main line i.e. Kapu, Balija and Telaga ar enot included in BC category as both INC and YSR congress have lost elections with zero seats and current chief minister of Andhra Pradesh is NAIDU.

Also, kindly remove film name Ontari on top of the page Giridharmurthy100 (talk) 20:57, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Also, it appears that you do not have consensus for the removal of the film name Ontari, and your request does not contain an explanation for why it should be removed. — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 21:10, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Not sure why Ontari film is publiiced on Kapu caste page. Nothing to do with Kapu Caste. Andy - can some one add the following on Kapu caste page: "In early 2016, the Kapus of the modern Andhra Pradesh state launched an agitation demanding the status of Other Backward Class, leading to violent protests.[11][12] Non-ruling parties or parties who are not in power for example The Indian National Congress party and the YSR Congress party have supported their demand but ruling party or party in power Telugu Desam Party is not considering reservation for all and presently the main line castes Kapu, Balija, Telaga and Naidu castes are forward communities and fall under 15% of Upper Castes or Other similar to Kamma/Naidu,Raju/Kapu and Velama Naiducastes and remove the following: In early 2016, the Kapus of the modern Andhra Pradesh state launched an agitation demanding the status of Other Backward Class, leading to violent protests.The Indian National Congress party and the YSR Congress party have supported their demand. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Giridharmurthy100 (talk • contribs) 09:54, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 May 2016

Request to change the following: Srinivasulu notes that the Reddys and Kammas are the politically dominant communities of Andhra Pradesh and Telangana, and that the Kapu-Naidus/Telagas are among a group with lesser but still significant influence, despite their small population. They are particularly effective in the districts of Krishna, Machilipatnam, Guntur, East Godavari and West Godavari, Rayalaseema. They are economically powerful and politically active.

Giridharmurthy100 (talk) 21:03, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 21:09, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Source http://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/bitstream/10603/25437/8/08_chapter%204.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by Giridharmurthy100 (talk • contribs) 21:40, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Have you bothered to read the "Status" section of the article? It says pretty much what you propose, although slightly watered-down because you are cherry-picking the source. I am very fed up of Kapu people coming here in an attempt to puff-up their community: don't misrepresent what sources say, please. - Sitush (talk) 21:46, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

I wanted you to rephrase certain sentences in Status section inorder to look better for readers. To be honest i am not a Kapu caste member nor belong to community such as Kamma or Reddy. I have some good friends who are from Kapu caste and in my observation they are very straight in talk and down to earth people willing to help all and no fancy at all. Also, another request you can rephrase certain sentences such as in 2016 they started agitating for backward class status but though non-ruling parties have supported their demand they are still not accepted as backward caste under present TDP governmnet in ruling. The main Kapu, Telaga and Balija are still considered as Forward Caste. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Giridharmurthy100 (talk • contribs) 01:37, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Dear Andy/Sitush - Please kindly accept the above request — Preceding unsigned comment added by Giridharmurthy100 (talk • contribs) 18:22, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

The request is declined for the reasons stated above. --allthefoxes ^(Talk) 22:48, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

Fox - I see you are always negative to all users and only like to escalate matters and break the harmony. I do not see you contributing or adding any value to the Kapu Caste page/

Please read this under Kapu caste page "In early 2016, the Kapus of the modern Andhra Pradesh state launched an agitation demanding the status of Other Backward Class, leading to violent protests.[11][12] The Indian National Congress party and the YSR Congress party have supported their demand.[13]"

It looks like as if Kapu caste is now included in backward category instead mention the following "In early 2016, the Kapus of the modern Andhra Pradesh state launched an agitation demanding the status of Other Backward Class, leading to violent protests.[11][12] Non-ruling parties or parties who are not in power for example The Indian National Congress party and the YSR Congress party have supported their demand but ruling party or party in power TDP is not considering reservation for all and presently the main line Kapu, Balija, Telaga and Naidu castes are forward communities. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Giridharmurthy100 (talk • contribs) 01:31, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Again, the request is denied for the reasons above. None of the content you are putting forward works under WP:NPOV or is properly sourced. I'm not being negative, I'm following our policies --allthefoxes ^(Talk) 04:25, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Please do not talk about policies and other things you are bull shitting basically. Why is "Ontari" redirects here. For the 2008 film, see Ontari (film) is on Kapu caste page? Can someone explain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Giridharmurthy100 (talk • contribs) 13:20, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

How am I BSing you? Those are our policies and I intend to follow them. In any case, this doesn't need to carry on. Have a good one. --allthefoxes ^(Talk) 16:06, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Sitush/Any Admin User, can some one do correction It looks like as if Kapu caste is now included in backward category instead mention the following "In early 2016, the Kapus of the modern Andhra Pradesh state launched an agitation demanding the status of Other Backward Class, leading to violent protests.[11][12] Non-ruling parties or parties who are not in power for example The Indian National Congress party and the YSR Congress party have supported their demand but ruling party or party in power Telugu Desam Party is not considering reservation for all and presently the main line castes Kapu, Balija, Telaga and Naidu castes are forward communities and fall under 15% of Upper Castes or Other similar to Kamma/Naidu,Raju/Kapu and Velama Naiducastes — Preceding unsigned comment added by Giridharmurthy100 (talk • contribs) 19:06, 2 June 2016 (UTC) reliable source: http://election.rediff.com/special/2009/apr/15/loksabhapolls-caste-to-the-fore-again-in-andhra-pradesh.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by Giridharmurthy100 (talk • contribs) 03:44, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

How can a news report from 2009 substantiate a proposed statement relating to "early 2016"? This is nonsense. - Sitush (talk) 11:19, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Sitush - I am only requesting users to rephrase the sentence. It looks like in the year of 2016 they are granted BC status, which is actually incorrect. As of today the main line Kapu, Balija, Telaga are classified as Other's or Forward Castes. So i just wanted you to add a line saying though INC and YSR congress supported the demand they are still considered Forward. I feel that is a vert reasonable ask. Why do you feel it is a non sense? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Giridharmurthy100 (talk • contribs) 18:44, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Folks, i have noticed that every caste page for example Reddy caste has a column on the right which represents the status of the caste such as Forward Caste at a very quick glance for example: Reddy Religions Hinduism Region South India Status Forward caste

I kindly request to add the same or follow similar pattern to add a column called 'Status' to say that Kapu, Balija and Telaga fall under Status Forward Caste. It is very confusing to read so many sub-castes under Kapu category. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Giridharmurthy100 (talk • contribs) 03:19, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

I just noticed that someone is playing with Kapu caste page. There was a column called status says Forward Class and it was removed by some other user without proper reasoning. Can someone kindly answer it why it was removed ? when kapu, telaga and balija are forward castes and why Reddy caste is mentioned as forward caste in the column towards right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Giridharmurthy100 (talk • contribs) 18:46, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

The removal was explained and it reinstated the position before someone ignored the consensus on this talk page. Read the damn article - by no means all Kapu are forward caste. Infoboxes are an imperfect mechanism for dealing with complex situations. - Sitush (talk) 19:10, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

Sitush - you son..stop this. You are spoiling reputation. Can someone correct it ASAP if not i will call 911 police. or Mention who is forward and backward in the column listed on the right just like Reddy Caste— Preceding unsigned comment added by Giridharmurthy100 (talk • contribs) 19:22, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

See WP:NPA and WP:NLT. - Sitush (talk) 19:28, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

WIKI ADMIN WATCH THIS BELOW: Who edited this: Subdivisions Numerous, including Balija, Telaga, Munnuru Kapu What does numerous mean? Depending on the context, numerous means a multitude, many, quite a few ... anything along those lines. I made the change here. As the edit summary says, the article mentions far more than just the ones named in the infobox. I'm not even sure that it is worth naming those few in the box because it is arguably giving them undue weight. - Sitush (talk) 19:55, 12 July 2016 (UTC) I want Wiki Admin to watch this person Sitush making ruthless edits by adding derogatory things under subdivisions which give very bad impression to the web page. Also, as listed for Reddy caste in the box with a status column you can add the same to Kapu caste pgae to show who are backward and forward. How is the addition of "numerous" derogatory? I think you may need to consult a dictionary. - Sitush (talk) 20:03, 12 July 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Giridharmurthy100 (talk • contribs)

Admin User: I kindly request folks to add a column called 'Status' on the right hand side to say that Kapu, Balija and Telaga fall under Status Forward Caste. It is very confusing to read so many sub-castes under Kapu category.

Semi-protected edit request on 8 September 2016

Please change "Kapus are primarily an agrarian community, forming a heterogeneous peasant caste" to "Kapus are primarily an agrarian community, forming a heterogeneous peasant caste" because Kapus are primarily forward caste and categorized as OC as per government. There are requests to government to change Kapus to backward caste.

Also Please change "The subcastes of Kapu include Telaga, Balija, Ontari, Munnuru Kapu, Turpu Kapu etc.[1]" to The subcastes of Kapu include Pedda Kapu, Kapu, Telaga, Naidu, Balija, Setti Balija, Ontari, Munnuru Kapu, Turpu Kapu etc.[1]" as all these are sub-castes of Kapu.

Iamramakrishna (talk) 09:06, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

 Not done for two reasons:-
There is no difference between your "from" and "to" statements:-

"Kapus are primarily an agrarian community, forming a heterogeneous peasant caste" and

"Kapus are primarily an agrarian community, forming a heterogeneous peasant caste"

Your request for additional subcastes to be added, is not supported by Reliable sources without which no information should be added, or changed in any article - Arjayay (talk) 09:21, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

I read the PDF document provided by Srinivasulu which was added as References list. Here Kapu caste is mentioned as Forward Caste or Other Caste. Can we add a Status column on the right side of the page under Region saying it is Forward Caste just like Kamma caste. Also we can there total population to be around 27% as per latest news. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Giridharmurthy100 (talk • contribs) 15:07, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

A very good article on Kapu caste : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Naidu_Rich.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by Giridharmurthy100 (talk • contribs) 16:27, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

You are still banging on about this status nonsense, Giridharmurthy100, despite a previous topic ban and a block and a warning from Bishonen on 12 July that if you persisted then you would end up with an indefinite length topic ban. What do you not understand? - Sitush (talk) 16:42, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 October 2016

THE INFORMATION PROVIDED IS NOT CORRECT . FACTS HAS BEEN DISTORTED . REDDYS, KAMMAS , VELAMAS ARE NOT RELATED TO KAPU COMMUNITY. THE CONTENTS INTENTION IS TO DILUTE THE SOCIAL AFFINITY BETWEEN KAPU , BALIJA AND TELJA COMMUNITIES .

223.182.76.153 (talk) 15:20, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

Not done: as you have not requested a specific change in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".
More importantly, you have not cited reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 15:36, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

Kapus/telaga/balija/naidu are forward caste or other caste

From what I read online today's kapu caste, Telaga caste , balija caste, naidu caste are classified as Forward caste. I do not see a reason why a status column is not added to the page saying they are forward caste. Reliable sources are government provided reservations and an article saying NAIDUS are rich. Lindabush12345 (talk) 02:46, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

You are making exactly the same argument made until recently by Giridharmurthy100 (talk · contribs), who is now blocked for their tendentious restatement of this lost cause. - Sitush (talk) 22:11, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

My urgent is correct from my study. Can you prove it to be incorrect? Lindabush12345 (talk) 22:20, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

My ask is very reasonable today they are classified as Forward caste why do we hesitate to say they are forward under status column. Can you prove I am incorrect? Lindabush12345 (talk) 23:05, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

Blocked. Giridharmurthy100, this material won't be allowed into the article no matter how many socks you create for the purpose. Bishonen | talk 19:24, 26 October 2016 (UTC).

Friends do not fight on caste basis. We all know that Kapu, Balja, Telaga and Naidu are forward communities. Do not beg like a beggar asking others to add status column when they do not respect your thought. Kindly do not spoil the reputation of this caste — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.80.134.12 (talk) 13:10, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

That's correct they are forward community. Why don't some editor of this Kapu caste page add that they are forward caste in the right column. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.90.130.9 (talk) 02:32, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

Can someone add a sentence in the beginning of the Kapu caste page that describes who are Kapu's are, and also include to say the list of subcastes are Telaga, Balija, Naidu — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.82.136.229 (talk) 18:19, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

Remove Telaga caste mentioning as backward caste. They are forward since independence of India

Title of the article: Telaga caste Description of Issue:  Telaga caste mentioned as Backward caste in Madras State. This is incorrect. Telaga caste people are from Andhra Pradesh Reliable Source: Please find the link for list of Bcckward CLasses in state of Andhra Pradesh 2016 and 2017. http://aponline.gov.in/apportal/departments/departments.aspx?dep=03&org=111&category=Introduction Note: Telaga caste is not listed as backward class. Please do a CTRL F to search on list of backward classes in the link provided.

Also, not required to mention 1915 stuff here — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.65.30.217 (talk) 23:25, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Kapu caste mentioned as Backward caste nad in MAdras State/Brotish State. Do not promote HATE between BRITISH people and INDIAN people

Title of the article: Kapu caste Description of Issue:  Kapu caste mentioned as Backward caste nad in MAdras State/Brotish State. Do not promote HATE between BRITISH people and INDIAN people

Please find the link for list of Bcckward CLasses in state of Andhra Pradesh 2016 and 2017. http://aponline.gov.in/apportal/departments/departments.aspx?dep=03&org=111&category=Introduction Note: Kapu/Telaga caste is not listed as backward class. try to do a CTRL F to search on list of backward classes in the link provided. Also, Kapu/Telaga caste is not present in Madras State and it is only in Andhra Pradesh state. Andhra Pradesh does not come under Madras State/Tamil Nadu. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.65.30.217 (talk) 23:18, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

User14: I did look into the link provided by another user that clearly does not mention Telaga as a backward caste. So, we should consider the present day scenario as India itself got it s independence after 1947 from british rule. So, they are classified as Other's or Forward with their mother caste KAPU/KAMMA Some important notes for Kautilya3 user from Madras user: I am born and raised in Madras. It is no more called Madras now it is renamed to be Chennai after British rule. Also, do not mention that Telaga was classified as BAckward during madras presidency as it sounds that we Tamil people classified them i.e Telugu people as backward. Try to understand Telugu and Tamil people different all together. Also, here in Madras the first chief minister of Madras providence was Rao Bahaddur Dr Sir Kurma Venkata Reddy Naidu former Chief Minister and Governor of the Madras Presidency from Telaga /Kapu/Naidu/Balija caste. Today's most popular Tamil actor Rajnikanth who is originally from Maharashtra son in law is from Teagan/Kapu caste. They are very rich people in Chennao, Coimbatore, Madurai and Salem. They many industrities, educational institutions and many them hold advanced degrees in IT. Also, this Telaga caste is primarily based out of Andhra region. Now, Andhra Pradesh is broken into Telangana and Andhra. Not to mention, Andhra most popular super star Chiranjeevi hails from Kapu/Telaga caste who ruled telugu/Tollywood insutry for 30 years. His brother Pawan Kalyan , All Arjun and Ram Charan are top 3 Tollywood actors today. Also, Mr. Pwan Kalyan holds a political outfit called JaNA sena which indeed helped todays Andhra government to form an also Mr. NArendra Modi (India's Prime Minister) to come in power. They are TDP. BJP and Jana Sena is one alliance. Many of them are Zamindaris, Land Owners, Merchants, Cultivators, Political Leaders, Educationists in present world. Please do not mention that Telaga was backward during under Madras presidency. India got its independence from 1947 and today in MAdras Kapu, Telaga, Naidu, Balija are classified as Forward caste only — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.167.210.137 (talk) 12:18, 29 November 2016 (UTC) In my state Tamil Nadu/Madras/Chennai: Kapu/KAmma Naidu/Telaga/Balija come under Naidu. For example look into this website: http://naidumatrimony.com/ and then click on Community. To me Kamma, Kapu, Naidu, Telaga, Balija are all called NAIDUS Reddiar/Reddy is not that rich compared to NAidu in Tamil nadu. state. I know NAIDUS are filthy rich and cannot come under BAckward category but will full under Forward caste in todays world. I guess under BRitish no one cares and does not any mention as British left India in 1947. Again, to me in Tamil Nadu for example very famous producer AM Rathnam who produced Gentleman movie etc hail from Kapu/Telaga Caste and are forward in Tamil nadu included famous actor Vijayakanth who floated a political party — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.167.210.137 (talk) 00:33, 30 November 2016 (UTC) Prominent Kapu/Telga caste leaders link below: http://kapusangam.com/p_kapulu.php#politics Politics Rao Bahadur Sir Kurma Venkata Reddy Naidu (Chief Minister of the erstwhile Madras Presidency) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.167.210.137 (talk) 12:53, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Do not mention British rule helped Kapu caste to become backward. Britishers never ruled Andhra or Telanagana state

Do not mention British rule helped Kapu caste to become backward. Britishers never ruled Andhra or Telanagana state, they ruled north india, west Benga, Gujarat and maharashtra — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.167.210.137 (talk) 00:52, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Edit request

Semi-protected edit request on 1 December 2016 - Derogatorty to use Bristish or English people in this context. This will generate hate crimes further between various communities. Kapu, Telaga and Balija are classified forward today by Andhra Pradesh govt.

173.167.210.137 (talk) 01:06, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

 Not done. The material is reliably sourced. There is nothing derogatory here. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 01:23, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Government of India records in Delhi capital of India classifies them as Forward Community

Government of India records indicate Kapu/Pedda Kapu/Telaga as Forward Caste. In olden times King lists refers to Kapu Caste in Andgra Region. Also, there is a strong indication of Chola dynasty ruled by Telaga Caste which is documented in Indian Regional Kingdoms authored by Vijay Singh Rathode. Kings/Warriors do not fall under umbrella of Backward Caste category. I strongly recommend to read this article published by Sanskrit: http://vepachedu.org/manasanskriti/kapu.htm. Many sections of Kapu/Telaga caste resemble people of Rajasthan and Haryana particularly the darker complexioned rajasthanis ( for instance some bhatti rajputs). Many of today's Kapus strongly resemble people in Chalukya and Chola paintings (By Chandan Singh Rawat) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chandansingh rawat (talk • contribs) 14:05, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 December 2016

Non-sense to indicate the following:

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Status The Kapu are considered to be a Shudra community in the traditional Hindu ritual ranking system known as varna. The Kapu have been described by Srinivasulu as a "dominant peasant caste in coastal Andhra", with the Telaga listed as "a backward peasant caste" and the Balija as a peasant caste who hold Lingayat beliefs. Srinisavulu has analysed the 1921 census of India to cause alignment with the present-day state and classification system, from which he concludes that Kapus (including Reddys) amounted to around 17 percent of the state's then population and were regarded as a Forward caste, whilst the Balija and Telaga were regarded as Backward castes, comprising 3 percent and 5 percent of the 1921 population, respectively. Srinivasulu notes that the Reddys and Kammas are the politically dominant communities of Andhra Pradesh and Telangana, and that the Kapus are among a group with lesser but still significant influence, despite their small population. They are particularly effective in the districts of East Godavari and West Godavari, although Srinivasulu notes that "The Kapus of the coastal districts are distinct from the Munnur Kapus of Telangana. While the former are fairly prosperous, the political emergence of the latter, who are part of the OBC category, is a recent phenomenon." The official government classifications rarely distinguished between the Kapu sub-castes. All Kapus were classified as forming a backward caste in 1915 by the British government of the Madras Presidency, which remained in force even after the formation of Andhra Pradesh until 1956. In that year, the government of Andhra Pradesh removed Kapus from the list of backward castes. Even though various governments have since made efforts to include them again, the efforts have not been successful. In 1968, the Anantha Raman Commission set up by the Andhra Pradesh government recognised Munnuru Kapus and Turpu Kapus as backward classes, but not the Kapus as a whole. The Mandal Commission set up by the Government of India in the 1980s recommended that Kapus be included among the Other Backward Classes (OBC). But the state governments were entrusted with finalising the list of castes for the OBC category. The state commission headed by N. K. Muralidhar Rao did not recommend any change to the status of the other Kapu castes. In early 2016, the Kapus of the modern Andhra Pradesh state launched an agitation demanding the OBC status, leading to violent protests. The Indian National Congress party and the YSR Congress party have supported their demand. The ruling Telugu Desam Party is said to be opposed to the demand. References

VERY POOR EDITS by unknown users, mentioning they burnt Trains & Police Stations, not required in a page viewed by millions of People.

Extended content
Content that shall be put instead
'Bold text Just mention, there status is Kshatriya, Warriors, Cultivators, Merchants, Industrialists, Educationists, Many them migrated to USA, UK, Australia, Europe for opportunities. In olden times King list refers to Kapu caste http://vepachedu.org/manasanskriti/kapu.htm. They also resemble people in north india Chandansingh rawat (talk) 14:12, 4 December 2016 (UTC)Simply add this under Status column: Kapu seems to be the earliest inhabitants of the Deccan region who migrated from the North and cleared Forests for Agriculture and built Towns in the Deccan. They are considered to be the Original Aryan Descendants who migrated to South India. Naidu in Andhra refers to the Kapu community. Their sub castes are Telaga and Balija. Many of today's Kapus strongly resemble people in Chalukya and Chola paintings. According to old tradition the king lists refer to kapus ruling in earlier times. Some kapu sections merge into the Reddis (another title) in parts of Andhra Pradesh. Their varna status is Kshatriya, Warrior category as Kings lists refer to Kapus not Shudras. Occupation Kapu Community primarily served as Protectors of villages from Bandits in the Medieval Ages who later took to other Professions like Village heads and Farmers during times of peace. During times of war they also served as Soldiers, Governors (Nayaks), Commanders in many of the Andhra Dynasties. Hence the term Nayaka/Naidu becamse synonymous with the community Modern day Kapu Community is predominantly are an Agrarian community diversified into Business, Industry, Films, Academia, and IT etc.   Note Kapu in the Pre Kakatiyan period referred to soldiers and agriculturists. Some of the occupations or responsibilities that “Kapus” had in the medieval period: Village defence committees (Kapu) Administration (Pedda Kapu) People responsible for protecting the farms from bandits and those protecting livestock were (Panta Kapu). The term Kapu has become synonymous with Agriculturists. Hence Reddys are called Kapu in Telangana & Rayalaseema of Andhra Pradesh.Genetics of the Communities of A.P. Refer to this link : http://vepachedu.org/manasanskriti/kapu.htm

 Not done--The edits are sourced and quite of a high quality.It is required whether the page is viewed by tens or millions.Avoid ethno-centric biases.Read WP:Neutrality.Aru@baska^{❯❯❯ Vanguard} 14:27, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

Status Section

Absolute Non Sense and illogical way of putting things under Status column: The Entire section in brackets can be deleted for good. "The Kapu are considered to be a Shudra community in the traditional Hindu ritual ranking system known as varna.[5][6][7] The Kapu have been described by Srinivasulu as a "dominant peasant caste in coastal Andhra", with the Telaga listed as "a backward peasant caste" and the Balija as a peasant caste who hold Lingayat beliefs. Srinisavulu has analysed the 1921 census of India to cause alignment with the present-day state and classification system, from which he concludes that Kapus (including Reddys) amounted to around 17 percent of the state's then population and were regarded as a Forward caste, whilst the Balija and Telaga were regarded as Backward castes, comprising 3 percent and 5 percent of the 1921 population, respectively.[8] Srinivasulu notes that the Reddys and Kammas are the politically dominant communities of Andhra Pradesh and Telangana, and that the Kapus are among a group with lesser but still significant influence, despite their small population. They are particularly effective in the districts of East Godavari and West Godavari, although Srinivasulu notes that "The Kapus of the coastal districts are distinct from the Munnur Kapus of Telangana. While the former are fairly prosperous, the political emergence of the latter, who are part of the OBC category, is a recent phenomenon."[9] The official government classifications rarely distinguished between the Kapu sub-castes. All Kapus were classified as forming a backward caste in 1915 by the British government of the Madras Presidency, which remained in force even after the formation of Andhra Pradesh until 1956. In that year, the government of Andhra Pradesh removed Kapus from the list of backward castes. Even though various governments have since made efforts to include them again, the efforts have not been successful. In 1968, the Anantha Raman Commission set up by the Andhra Pradesh government recognised Munnuru Kapus and Turpu Kapus as backward classes, but not the Kapus as a whole. The Mandal Commission set up by the Government of India in the 1980s recommended that Kapus be included among the Other Backward Classes (OBC). But the state governments were entrusted with finalising the list of castes for the OBC category. The state commission headed by N. K. Muralidhar Rao did not recommend any change to the status of the other Kapu castes.[10][11] In early 2016, the Kapus of the modern Andhra Pradesh state launched an agitation demanding the OBC status, leading to violent protests.[12][13] The Indian National Congress party and the YSR Congress party have supported their demand.[14] The ruling Telugu Desam Party is said to be opposed to the demand.[15]"

This makes sense from the community portal: Kapu seem to be the earliest inhabitants of the Andhra and Deccan region who migrated from the North and cleared forests for Agriculture and built Townships, Cities in the Deccan/Andhra region. They are considered to be the Original Aryan Descendants who migrated to South India from north India. In old times King list refers to KAPU. Kings are not considered to be Shudra varna. Kapu in the Pre Kakatiyan period referred to soldiers and agriculturists. Some of the occupations or responsibilities that “Kapus” had in the medieval period:

Village defence committees (Kapu) Administration (Pedda Kapu) People responsible for protecting the farms from bandits and those protecting livestock were (Panta Kapu). The term Kapu has become synonymous with Landowners or Agriculturists. Hence Reddys are called Kapu in Telangana & Rayalaseema of Andhra Pradesh. Occupation: Kapu Community primarily served as Protectors of villages from Bandits in the Medieval Ages who later took to other Professions like Village heads and Farmers during times of peace. During times of war they also served as Warriors, Zamindars. Governor, Commanders in many of the Andhra Dynasties such as Chola & Chalukya. Hence the term Nayaka/Naidu becamse synonymous with the community Modern day Kapu Community is predominantly are an Agrarian community diversified into Business, Industry, Films, Academia, and IT etc

Some of the major and important Dynasities of Kapus or Telagas are Telugu Chodas Kona Kings — Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.73.111.121 (talk) 17:57, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

telaga caste not listed under backward category

Please read this recently published article: http://www.thehansindia.com/posts/index/Andhra-Pradesh/2016-11-12/Manjunath-panel-jots-down-villagers-woes-/263716

Telaga caste not listed as backward category — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.167.210.137 (talk) 03:18, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Our article doesn't say that the Telaga are categorised as a Backward Class today, merely that they were by the Brits in the 1921 census and that they are considered to be "backward" (note capitalisation) by one commentator. - Sitush (talk) 12:47, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

In 1921 India was under British Rule. Mahatma Gandhi and Bhagat Singh from Gujarat and Punjab was fighting against British asking British to leave India. At that time of 1921 I am not sure because India government was never formed. After Andhra Pradesh has formed as a state after splitting from Madras province in 1965 AP is formed. From then until today Telaga caste is Forward. READ this article properly and mention that they are classified as Forward Caste. Kings & Warriors do not qualify under Backward

http://www.thehansindia.com/posts/index/Andhra-Pradesh/2016-11-12/Manjunath-panel-jots-down-villagers-woes-/263716 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.167.210.137 (talk) 14:37, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

I did read the article you mentioned. You, however, seem to be yet another sock- or meat-puppet who is not reading all prior discussion on this talk page. Your linked news article does not even use the word forward, so you are engaging in original research. I'm not even sure why you are so bothered about this here - our article subject is Kapu and the Telaga are but a small part of it.

You will hear no more from me in this thread, just as myself and others gave up answering this continued misunderstanding of our policies in earlier threads here. - Sitush (talk) 14:57, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Dipesh Mishra here, i do not see them listed as backward category and i feel it is not necessary to mention before independence, as India was under British rule and all Indians were treated as slaves. It is important to mention who they are today rather than past. Just a friendly suggestion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.221.118.29 (talk) 21:02, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Kapu sub-castes

Under Kapu we can mention Telaga, Balija and Naidu are Forward Castes and Turpu Kapu and Munnuru Kapu as Backward Castes. Sub-castes of Kapu (Main Caste) In Andhra State Telaga is considered Forward in Coastal Andhra region Balija is considered Forward in Rayalaseema region Naidu is considered Forward in both Telagana and Andhra states

In Telangana State Munnuru Kapu is Backward In North Coastal Andhra Turpu Kapu is Backward

Caste and classification of Andhra http://scnc.ukzn.ac.za/doc/SHIP/CasteFinal.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.243.80.84 (talk) 13:40, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

Description of each caste in reference to Andhra Pradesh

Update 'Kapu' caste page with the information from below URl/Link http://scnc.ukzn.ac.za/doc/SHIP/CasteFinal.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.243.80.84 (talk) 20:51, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

Before you comment here

Hi, last note! Thanks for your interest in contributing to Wikipedia. For any changes to be made to this Wikipedia page, you need to have a reliable source. Please read and understand this page before commenting here. Please note that word of mouth / things people have said are not reliable sources. For us to change this page, you must provide a WP:RS - If you request a change to this page without providing a reliable source, your edit may be removed, or ignored. Thank you. --allthefoxes ^(Talk) 03:57, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

Remove "Ontari redirects in 2016" on top of the page.

Remove "In early 2016, the Kapus of the modern Andhra Pradesh state launched an agitation demanding the status of Other Backward Class, leading to violent protests.[11][12] The Indian National Congress party and the YSR Congress party have supported their demand.[13]" Reliable Sources: http://www.thehansindia.com/posts/index/Andhra-Pradesh/2016-02-05/Kapus-demand-for-reservation-unjust-say-BC-associations/204911 https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:KAPU_Community_not_to_be_included_in_BC_list.pdf

Also, current chief minister of Andhra Pradesh Mr. Nara chandra babu naidu is not interested in including Kapu under BC category. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Prasannasingaraju (talk • contribs) 18:28, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

UK/US population

Is there any support for this reinstatement? That is, I am sure that some Kapu probably exist in the US and UK but is it a significant population or just a small number? We usually only list significantly populated places, otherwise the list would become unmanageable - Sitush (talk) 22:00, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

I am sure there must be a good number of people who are part of Telugu Associations such as NATS, ATA and TANA etc. Numbers are unknown to anyone at all. As far as i know i would say Telugu population in total is very strong in North America, UK, Australia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.73.108.121 (talk) 18:28, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

We need reliable sources, not speculation. - Sitush (talk) 20:56, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 January 2017

The varna system of Brahmanic ritual ranking never took hold in South Indian society outside Kerala. There were essentially three classes: Brahmin, non-Brahmin and Dalit.[16] Kapus naturally fall into the non-Brahmin class D.S. Charan 13:11, 23 January 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chrnds (talk • contribs)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. EvergreenFir (talk) 22:58, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

I suppose Chrnds wants this information added, and used to replace the current characterisation of Kapus as Shudras. I agree with him. In fact, I have proposed on Talk:Caste system in India that the varna categorisation should be deleted from all South Indian caste pages. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 00:02, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

Well, that would be wrong. There is an article somewhere where I wrote something like X have historically been classified as shudra despite, according to historians such as Y, the Hindu varna system of ritual ranking "never having taken hold in South India". That would be the correct formula: that the Brits etc misunderstood things had significant ramifications for South Indian society. - Sitush (talk) 10:07, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

Don't forget, people are quick to want to use the Kshatriya label in South India. - Sitush (talk) 10:09, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

Are you going to make the edit? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chrnds (talk • contribs) 09:23, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

When will u change shudra status atleast explain that south indian higher ( analogous to kshatriya caste were put as sat shudra not as shudra) u cant underatand how ur writing can create a problem ...plz refer to caste census of 1901 for explanation.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.154.94.1 (talk) 16:18, 19 May 2020 (UTC) 

Telaga and Balija castes are listed as Backward Castes which is incorrect

Look at this latest news from hansindia http://www.thehansindia.com/posts/index/Andhra-Pradesh/2017-01-24/Kapu-Movement-a-divided-house/275400

Correction required - Telaga, Balija are forward along with Kapu — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.80.134.12 (talk) 03:37, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

Why no action is taken until now to correct it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.80.134.12 (talk) 05:36, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

Nowhere does that source even mention the word forward. - Sitush (talk) 20:39, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

I think you should read the article again, it does not mention that they are backward today. Seriously, someone is trying to defame this caste by giving wrong information to the viewers. You must correct it or i would want the other users to mention it as forward. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.80.134.12 (talk) 05:33, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Rahul here, i see lot of wrong information posted on Kapu caste page. I rcently checked with both government of telangana and Andhra Pradesh, there records indicate that Kapu, Telaga, Balija are classified as Forward Caste and their caste title is Naidu. I guess what the other user holds true. I want a genuine user to correctly update the site — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.78.147.112 (talk) 20:07, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

Too much is going on about this Kapu caste. Chalo someone agree to the fact that Kapu, Telaga and balija are forward as per my good friends from this community. (By Singh) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.35.230.35 (talk) 21:12, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

This information is wrong, Telaga and Balija do not come under Backward Caste. Please correct this information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vkoppu (talk • contribs) 17:01, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

Kapus are not shudra.

Why Kapus are listed as shudra since there are only three branches are there in telugu people Brahmins, non-brahmins and untouchables. Dwija are absent in telugu people and Kapus are not untouchables, so why you referred them as Shudra. They were and are agriculturist and cultivator from ages. You won't find any difference in Reddy and Kapu, both have common ancestry. Like Reddy, Kapus are non Brahmins but not shudra. For reference you can refer Reddy Wikipedia page, in that South Indian peasant or agriculturist are categorized as non Brahmins and varna status in south India is disputable so why you categorizing Kapus as shudra. - Protectorcultivator (talk) 06:24, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

We are not classifying them as Shudra - it is reliable sources which are doing that. We do expand on the point at length and I think part of the problem here is that members of the Kapu community, almost certainly including sock- or meatpuppets - are absolutely fixated on the shudra reference and are ignoring the remainder of the section which indicates the nuances. By the way, we can't use another Wikipedia article as a source for this one, nor can we extrapolate a conclusion based on sources that do not actually mention Kapus. - Sitush (talk) 09:19, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Kapus are Shudras. There are dwijas in telugu people. There are Kshatriyas(Raju) and Vysyas(Komati). They wear the Sacred thread and have rishi gotras which the Kapus don't have. Kapus are indeed Shudras — Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.150.176.2 (talk) 15 March 2018 (UTC)

Kapus are not shudra, they are kshtriya by birth , they do have rishi gotra. And sacred thread is a personal choice, if you been to school you can wear it. No matter what your caste is. Unfoldingtruth (talk) 04:48, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

To make things clear, in north kshtiya and vashya do not wear janayu . So as per your justification they also fall under shudra? 1. Rishi gorta: you might have got your answer. For reference  : http://www.kapusangam.com/surname_gotralu.php 2. Provide any govt document for citing stating shudra status. Books you have mentioned as citation are merely written by writers not approved by govt. if Wikipedia is all about truth and evidence provide one. SSeeker93 (talk) 12:54, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Dwijas is not only constrained to Telugu people. Anyone who has went to school for further enlightenment ( first born physically and at a later date is born for a second time spiritually, usually when he undergoes the rite of passage that initiates him into a school for Vedic studies)

Now either every non shudra is into vedic studies, which i guess is an assumption or whosoever been to school is twice born. SSeeker93 (talk) 12:59, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Undoubtedly we can change shudra to non-bhramin. which is correct and justified. SSeeker93 (talk) 13:03, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaishya

refer this SSeeker93 (talk) 13:12, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Telaga kapus are forward caste

Wikipedia is Wrong. 62.107.161.3 (talk) 07:59, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

I agree, Telaga caste is Forward Community — Preceding unsigned commentdded by 96.234.162.26 (talk) 20:56, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

PhD theses

@Sitush: with regard to this deletion, PhD theses almost always have only submission information. The fact that it was published on the Shodhganga web site implies that the thesis was successful. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:19, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

I've seen ones on that site that show acceptance. Just don't ask me to find them - it's a dreadful website. - Sitush (talk) 17:24, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

Tbh, I think that thesis was about 25 years ago. If it was significant then surely someone would have cited it by now? Perhaps it would be best if I check via Google Scholar. - Sitush (talk) 17:26, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

Give them a break. India at least has a freely accessible central repository. Most of our countries don't have such a thing. When I recently needed a PhD thesis from Cambridge, they asked me to pay 50 quid just to process the request!

In any case, here is a citation. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:39, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

Kapu is forward caste

Kapu is forward caste there is difference between Munnuru Kapu, Turpu Kapu these castes are enjoying reservation benefits in Andhra and telengana as a BC(D) category but kapu is purley forward caste these people are residents in visakhaptnam to nellore districts in andhra pradesh state then why stil maintian in this page as kapu is forward caste in some areas in information box. Munnuru Kapu, Turpu Kapu have sperate Wikipedia pages Jeevan naidu (talk) 13:17, 16 January 2018 (UTC).

We have had a sockfarm basically arguing a similar thing here recently, and using fairly similar usernames to yours. Like them, you are not providing any evidence and you're failing to understand that, even if you did, we need to consider WP:NPOV. In fact, you're pretty much acting identically to the confirmed socks. I'm not sure if you will understand the phrase but "this may not be the hill that you want to die on." It certainly would be worth your while reading prior posts on this talk page. - Sitush (talk) 13:47, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

By the way, regarding your comment about other articles existing, did you note that this article says The official government classifications rarely distinguished between the Kapu sub-castes? - Sitush (talk) 13:50, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

The government did recognize the Munnur and Turpu Kapus as backward classes eventually. However, we don't have anything that says that they stopped being "Kapus" as a result of that. So, as of now, Kapus don't have a uniform status across all areas and subdivisions. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:15, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

Unless those two articles are expanded soon, I'd be inclined to merge them here anyway. - Sitush (talk) 14:25, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

if they have reservations it means they are backward classes. do you any other suggestions to describes backward classes?

http://www.ap.gov.in/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/NOTIFICATION-LETTER.pdf

you may can find hear thurpu kapu is backward class its listed in BC.D Category in andhra pradesh state i attached above government of andhra pradesh website pdf link you may can check it

this is telengana bc d caste list there is munnuru kapu but the government not included kapu caste http://tspsc.net/telangana-state-bc-c-bc-d-list-backward-class-welfare-depart-g-o-ms-no-34/. kapu and thrpu kapu and munnuru kapu is diffrent these all are diffrent Jeevan naidu (talk) 14:48, 16 January 2018 (UTC).

Yes, which means not all Kapus are forward. We have loads of situations - eg: with various Nair subcastes - where there are articles for the subcastes but the umbrella caste article has to deal with the lot. That makes sense because many people's first experience of a caste's name will come through seeing the umbrella term. - Sitush (talk) 14:42, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

so my point is in information box mentioned kapu is forward caste in some areas i am just changed it as forward caste and by the way i dont have any duplicate accounts and this is my first time posting in talk page Jeevan naidu (talk) 14:47, 16 January 2018 (UTC).

I have reverted you. You've been round long enough that you should know of WP:CONSENSUS by now. - Sitush (talk) 14:53, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

we may can discus hear i am compliant about you from threatening me blocking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Consensus (Jeevan naidu (talk) 15:05, 16 January 2018 (UTC)).

Collapsing yet more useless threads by a sock of Rajesh rao kumar - Sitush (talk) 09:49, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Etymology Someone mentioned here, Kapu literally means Agriculturist or Farmer in Telugu. I m seriously questioning if this post was done by some Telugu Person and the Reference is of Cynthia Talbot, a foreign author. The words used in different languages for farmers Sanskrit - Krishak Prakrit - Halika Telugu - Ryotu In Telugu, Raksha and Kapadatam are two words used for Protection. Kapu is word meaning to watch or Protect from which the caste Name Kapu arises. And this is well known fact in Telugu people. During the British Era, as majority of lands of Andhra Pradesh was held by Kapu people, who were involved in agriculture, the labourers used to call the landowners Kapu. It is just used but it is not literal meaning Nag Sam 01:14, 16 March 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nagsamm4 (talk • contribs) Varna Claims The Varna Status of Kapu is same as Kamma, Reddy and Velama. All were claiming Kshatriya status but were placed in Shudra status. The controversy is for all the castes, but why this point has not been mentioned in Kapu caste. Why it is directly mentioned as Shudras? And for ur Kind info Brahmins use a special Term SAT SHUDRAS for Kamma, Kapu, Reddy and Velama. So, i would request you to kindly change it. Nag Sam 01:20, 16 March 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nagsamm4 (talk • contribs) Why this needed to be added? We can simply classify them as what they are . A forward caste. . Why it is directly mentioned as Shudras? Unfoldingtruth (talk) 04:45, 6 April 2019 (UTC) Sub divisions The Kapu caste is a compound of various sub castes. Balija, Ontari, Telaga, Munnuru, Turpu etc are subcastes inside Kapu caste. Why they are not mentioned inside this page. There are many things which have been missing in this page. And when some source is added, it is treated as Caste based Source. Why dont the guys first read the book. Because even though from above the book looks caste based, but inside the sources are used from Books like N Sastri, Cynthia Talbot, Durga Prasad,etc. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07BF6BYCG Read first and then categorise if it has baised history or words taken from all renouned books Nag Sam 01:28, 16 March 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nagsamm4 (talk • contribs) The book is by Prince Ashoka, who doesn't appear as a recognized scholar on GoogleScholar. If his book is based on reputable books, how about we just cite the original reputable books, as opposed to some unknown writer's summary of them? MatthewVanitas (talk) 07:54, 16 March 2018 (UTC) Thank you, sockpuppet.We don't use self-published books of dubious intents.~ Winged BladesGodric 09:21, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Kindly document the history for hazari caste from the URL provided below. Hazari is a sub-caste of KAPU community

Kindly look at the URL below to properly author the content for Hazaris caste:

https://kapunadu.org/hazari/

Note - Hazari belongs to KAPU caste from Andhra Pradesh/Telanaga state — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:48:C500:F392:B10C:57DE:15A4:59EC (talk) 02:06, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

Not a reliable source. ∯WBG^converse 05:14, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

Legends of the Kakatiya dynasty?

@Winged Blades of Godric and Sitush: I don't think this edit is correct. There were no legends in the Kakatiya period as far as we know, nor the so-called "caste clusters". All of them developed only in the late Vijayanagara period.

We do hear of Reddi and Velama in the post-Kakatiya period, which established dyasties at Kondavidu and Rachakonda. But they were likely to have been small groups, whose prominence later became a focus for the caste clusters. Kamma was a regional identity at this time (see Kammanadu), which also later developed into a caste cluster. The Belthi Reddi legend is narrated by only the Kammas apparently. The other castes don't have it. So, we shouldn't overemphasize the legend either. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:47, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

The Kapu occupational identity likely dates back to the Buddha's time, which was when occupational identities developed. So the "origin", as it were, was in the remote past. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:49, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

I have no idea. I can't see that page of the source. In fact, nowadays I cannot see many pages of it. - Sitush (talk) 12:51, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

Sitush, please email me, shall you wish to access a scanned copy:-) ∯WBG^converse 13:02, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

It's weird and I do think that you have a valid point.

Talbot specifically mentions:-The major cultivating caste-clusters--The Kapus or Reddis, the Kammas and the Velamas--are said to have a common ancestry in these legends.

As an example, she has elaborated on the formation of Kammas, Velamas and Reddis w.r.t the Belthi Reddi/Prataprudra legend after deriving the same from Thurston's narrative.

But, there's nothing about the origins of Kapu (I have glance-read the entire book but might have missed portions), despite being twice mentioned by her, as claiming origins in Kakatiya Legends.

I will try to trace the earliest mentions of the group or explicit stuff about it's origin, using other sources.∯WBG^converse 13:22, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

I don't think we will ever find anything about the "origin" of Kapu. The identity would have existed as long as farming existed. And, I notice historians saying that occupations were the original identities. (But, one needs to strip off all the Brahmanical mythology before one can see that.) See:

• Chakravarti, Uma (2 March 1985), "Towards a Historical Sociology of Stratification in Ancient India: Evidence from Buddhist Sources", Economic and Political Weekly, 20 (9): 359–360, JSTOR 4374135

-- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:45, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

Obviously, there's no doubt that the occupations were original identities:-)∯WBG^converse 16:26, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

Kautilya3, umm......the reversion did not achieve much;-) It's nearly the same content and a rewrite is desirable. ∯WBG^converse 18:32, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

I know. Please feel free to try again. I am not sure what you are exactly trying to do. Perhaps you can suggest some rewording here? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:35, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

Nothing, to be precise. My edit copyedited and slightly trimmed the stuff, corrected a wrong page number and verified that the information is correct, at least per Talbot. Days back, at Reddy (probably), somebody had used reliable sources but deviated from it, (to extremal whims) as to constructing the section. When, this article popped up on my watchilst, I was basically surprised at the same fact that you mention; about how Kapus can be traced to the Kakatiya legends (though I did not know the Belthi Reddi story) given that I am pretty sure to have some across scholarly sources that mentions them much aprior those times. I initially doubted yet another source-content mismatch and some OR stuff but to my dismay, they aligned quite precisely. And, so here we are.

On another note, I am not much bothered about the usage of caste-cluster. The term is an imprecise one, in that it uses a modern ethnographic terminology to describe a timespan where such concepts were mostly alien but pretty certainly Talbot uses it to designate the fraternal occupational classes, prevalent back then.∯WBG^converse 18:56, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

Can some one include Telaga caste as forward caste under Kapu category. Actor Chiranjeevi, Pawan Kalyan is from Telaga caste

Telaga is Forward Caste

Actor Chiranjeevi and Pawan Kalyan are from Telaga caste. They are highly influential and are from Forward Caste — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.147.202.116 (talk) 20:32, 14 November 2018 (UTC) Reliable source - https://www.ripublication.com/ijhss18/ijhssv8n1_03.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:45:480:DF62:5B4:C169:CE56:2B6F (talk) 11:42, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Sir names and gothras

Add sir names and gothra's in kapu caste Ramanaidu.parimo (talk) 14:13, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

URL below gives info on surnames and gotra http://www.kapusangam.com/surname_gotralu.php — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:45:480:DF62:8851:EFE0:30B:B858 (talk) 03:37, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

We avoid sources affiliated with castes, and lists of surnames etc tend to be original research somewhere down the line as anyone can bear any name they choose. - Sitush (talk) 10:14, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 December 2018

Kindly include a column to say Kapu caste and Telaga caste are Forward caste just like 'Kamma' and 'Reddy' caste 2601:45:480:DF62:5956:3822:1B41:8A12 (talk) 17:00, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. – Jonesey95 (talk) 22:16, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

Various communities

We've got real difficulties here in defining Kapu. The word seems to be used sometimes as an umbrella term and sometimes as a specific term. Other groups that appear to come under the umbrella include the Telaga, Ontari, Munnuru, Balija and Turpu (and, of course, the Kapu as a specific term) but sources don't seem to agree on where the lines are drawn.

Is there any way to disentangle the mess? It is very confusing and I don't think our articles on the variants particularly help resolve it. - Sitush (talk) 15:24, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

Sitush this is Srivastava, why is Telaga caste not listed under Kapu caste page when it is a sub-caste of Kapu ? Are they forward caste today or not ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.147.202.105 (talk) 21:10, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

Sorry Sitush, I didn't see your post earlier. Yes, Kapu is a large category and has several subcastes, based on regional variations and perhaps other factors. What is it that is confusing you?

Srivastava, you need to go to the Telaga page for answer to your question. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:23, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

Nothing is confusing me but I think the reader may be confused because this article seems to be using Kapu in two senses, as the umbrella term and as a term for one of the several groups that come under that umbrella. Add to that the problem I mention that the sources do not even seem to agree regarding where the boundaries may be. I'm wondering whether it would be easier to merge everything into this single article. - Sitush (talk) 07:48, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Ontari

Ontari still redirects here, but since 13 December 2011 the article no longer mentions Ontari, so the reader gets no explanation of redirection. --CiaPan (talk) 12:07, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

Yes. There is no requirement for the subject of a redirect to appear in the target article by name but, in any event, see the section immediately above. - Sitush (talk) 16:04, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

@Sitush: No requirement?! Really you think there is no requirement that an index or any other kind of cross-reference in any handbook, dictionary or encyclopedia is not required to lead to a definition, an explanation, or at least to another use, of the indexed or referenced notion?! So what are redirects and references for, according to you???

And don't mention the section above, anymore. Talk pages are not appendices to articles. They are for discussion on editing the articles, not for informing casual readers what and why was omitted. As far as I know (also from my own use of Wikipedia) a reader will NOT seek any explanation in talk pages. When I type X in a search box and I find myself seeing page Y, then I expect Y to explain the connection between Y and X – possibly they are synonyms, possibly X is a special case of Y (e.g. as a mathematical object or a medical condition) or a part of Y (e.g. as a battle in the Y war, a historic distric in a contemporary town or a minor summit in mountains crest). That's because I asked about X, and I expect the answer on X.

Imagine, if we meet face to face and you ask me what my real name is, and I tell you in reply what year Stephenson brothers have built their pioneering steam railway locomotive – wouldn't you think I'm mad or at least a mean guy? Of course you would, that's the obvious reaction for nonsense answer from someone looking reasonable. And Wikipedia's answer looks exactly that nonsense in this case – it replies with a page, which does not explain or even mention what I was interested in. And Wikipedia looks like an idiot or a sick person to me. --CiaPan (talk) 07:41, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Please cite the policy that supports your contention. No policy, no need - it happens a lot. And the section above is relevant. - Sitush (talk) 07:43, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

@Sitush:

1. Policies are for people, not the other way around. They are to assure a good quality of Wikipedia, not to keep it low just because something hasn't been codified. If something IS described in policies, it should be done the way they say. If something is NOT described does NOT imply it should NOT be done. That's a basic logic.
2. As a reader, when I seek Ontari and find Kapu, and Kapu doesn't say a single word about Ontari in the lead or first section, I will run a quick search through the page to find what I seek. When I don't find it I certainly won't seek the talk page, because talk pages are not for extending articles. So I will never see the section above, hence it is irrelevant. Full stop.
   It is relevant for editors, but not for readers. Anyway it explains why Ontari people are not mentioned here, but it does not justify sending the Ontari-seeker to Kapu. And my question was the latter, not the former.
3. At last, please use {{reply to}} – unless you want to show me you don't care if I read your reply...

CiaPan (talk) 21:12, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

What's the population in kapu and sub categories.

Hope this election 2019 will clearly expose the population strength. Kalyanvijaykumar (talk) 12:09, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

What is Telaga caste? Also Telaga caste is mostly confined to Andhra Pradesh only especially Coastal Andhra Pradesh. Telaga/Kapu means the same and they carry the title Dora which means Feudal Land Owning Castes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.26.100.41 (talk) 18:25, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

Kalyan, can you document Kapu, Telaga & Balija are forward and powerful communities in Andhra, Telangana and Rayalaseema — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.26.100.41 (talk) 19:41, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

Correct history of Kapu caste must be documented

Are Kapus considered as naidus? Is naidu a separate caste ? How are they related to Balija, Telaga, Munnuru, Turpu and Ontari. Can we list few famous film personalities, sports, politicians, colleges and universities. What is the overall population and status today in 2019 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.26.100.41 (talk) 21:14, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 July 2019

A lot of information given on this page is wrong. Telaga and Balija are not Backward Castes. Please get this information corrected. Vkoppu (talk) 17:05, 11 July 2019 (UTC) Vkoppu (talk) 17:05, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 18:45, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

Can we mention the difference between Kapu ands its ub-castes Munnuru Kapu, Turpu Kapu, Naidu caste, Telaga, Haazari, Ontari caste and Balija caste

Can we mention the difference between Kapu (parent caste) and its sub-castes - Munnuru Kapu, Turpu Kapu, Naidu caste, Telaga, Haazari and Balija caste

Plz lock it now for confirming the changes u can see the caste census of 1901.... Hopefully this is the biggest help u have done for me.thank u. Rimeg (talk) 17:25, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Plz try to maintain the changes I have done for confirmation u can see caste census of 1901 and caste of south india by edigae Thurston ....if u read this msg reply here thanks a lot. Rimeg (talk) 17:28, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

The 1901 census is not reliable. - Sitush (talk) 13:58, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Why Telaga Caste is marked as backward caste category ? Are they are really backward ? I am confused

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telaga;

Kapu Sangham Community Links: http://www.kapusangam.com/history.php — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.26.100.41 (talk) 20:19, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Edigar Thurston book on caste of South India. Rimeg (talk) 17:35, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Neither caste association websites nor Raj era authors are considered reliable. User:Sitush/CasteSources has some info about this. - Sitush (talk) 13:57, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Where did Kapu caste originate from ? Are they Dravidian or Indo Aryan race ? I see lot of Kapu caste people who like Aryans

Where did Kapu caste originate from ? Are they Dravidian or Indo Aryan race ? I see lot of Kapu caste people who like Aryans — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.58.168.138 (talk) 20:48, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

This page is for discussing improvements to the article. - Sitush (talk) 13:55, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Shudra status

Rimeg has posted a question about the shudra status of some Kapu people at User talk:Sitush#Me sitush. It is better dealt with here.

I will start by asking people to read prior threads on this page where the status of the community has been discussed. Also, to read and understand the entire article.

I am assuming the problem raised by Rimeg is our paragraph The Kapu are considered to be a Shudra community in the traditional Hindu ritual ranking system known as varna. I don't think that was originally inserted by me and I have a problem with the sources - cannot see the first one and can only see bits of the second. I am right that this is the bit that troubles you, Rimeg? - Sitush (talk) 13:48, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

References

Mr sitush as u can read above before the status here it is mentioned that many branches of kapu fractioned of (Velma ;Reddy etc) while the third source for shudra status ( as i already mention were specifically for particular kapu caste so iam saying that u can mention above that ( Velma Reddy ) were fractioned from a kapu tribe or whatver while in status its reference is for especially a caste .

Rimeg (talk) 14:13, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

As u already know that caste of south india are heavily debatic thing so i dont want to create much debate again but atleast we can mention about differnce said between the ancient kapu tribe( which sources i dont know are mentioned or not) and kapu caste mentioned here . Rimeg (talk) 14:15, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Or se can remove the status thing if it's so questionable tahts it thank u . Rimeg (talk) 14:16, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

I think I need to do some reading/research. I am fairly sure something needs to change but I can't do that without being able to cite sources. - Sitush (talk) 14:43, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

There isn't anything called an "ancient Kapu tribe". Kapu was clearly an occupational caste, not a tribe.

As for Sudra etc., I have said in the past that it doesn't make sense to talk about the varna status for South Indian castes. But if good sources do it, I won't object. It is generally done by western writers or in stuff written for western readers because they are heavily tuned into the four-varna system. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:52, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

As u already know varna status does not make sense in south indian castes ....caste census of 1901( which claim kapur as sat shudra ) can be used by the way Kautilya kapu is a caste now but it was called kammpu tribe something like that( that's all very confusing so don't mention it) kamma and others caste dont refer themselves to kapu these all are claims....  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rimeg (talk • contribs) 15:44, 10 June 2020 (UTC) 

Last but not the least u can read status column urself and can underatand that it's so confusing ( refering to so many different types of kapu caste )the balija mentioned in status section say balija who follow lingyatism ( that's in Karnataka ) which come under obc during early years so also mention that it's mentioning lingyat balija. Rimeg (talk) 15:47, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

I agree that the varna system doesn't really work in S India - there were brahmins & then everyone else - but when we adopt that approach using sources such as Cynthia Talbot, those at Nair & at Caste system in Kerala, we immediately get screams of protest and disruption from people who insist their community are kshatriya. As Kautilya3 hints, there are plenty of sources that do deploy the varna system (by no means all Western) and that creates a problem I haven't yet convincingly reconciled. The classification situation isn't helped by the reservation system, which is politicised and throws another spanner in the works. I need time to read & think but all suggestions are welcome. - Sitush (talk) 03:14, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes like all other s.i. pages u can write it's diaputed and are called sat shudra like that. Rimeg (talk) 06:37, 11 June 2020 (UTC) Sitush are u thinking of doing any changes ?

Sitush will u do anya changes on the status? Rimeg (talk) 04:30, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Sitush as u have not done changes i have removed kamma Velma other caste from kapu page becoz of kapu page it is making all caste as shudra either we should mention that kapu word here and on status level means different things don't add other caste ( kamma velma under kapu) caste is very important for indian thats it....hope u dont block me next is ur wish Rimeg (talk) 14:09, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

I am sorry but I do not understand what you are trying to say now. I think you need to be very wary of removing stuff from any caste article if it is sourced and you do not have consensus. We certainly do not have any consensus here - I am still waiting for thoughts from other people. - Sitush (talk) 08:42, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

 I was only trying to say that u have put all the caste of south india under the labels of shudra ...caste system was not practice in south as was in north(as u have already mention it) shudra were the workers while reddy and kamma and many other castes have worked as rulers in south so collectively you have called everyone shudra ....and if ur talking about source there are amples of book which refer to the castes system of south india.

There is a bundle of stuff relating to this in the discussion at [6]. The gist is that it is proposed we refer to them as sat shudra rather than shudra because that is what modern sources use. Sources given as examples are:

• Dalit women by gk ghosh shukla ghosh
• Caste and race by govind ghuriye
• Page 17 fertility and familial relation:procreation in south india ( it says reddy and kamma are higher kulams than rest of kapu-refferinh to munru and turpu kapu)
• Pg 414 literay culture in history South Asia

I really need to dig into this but I am spread very thinly at the moment so if anyone else wants to take it up, feel free. - Sitush (talk) 10:12, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Rimeg I have just search the Dalit Women book and can see no mention of Kapu. The Ghurye book mentions them as "high caste" but it is very much a passing mention and he's getting a bit dated. Similarly, the Fertility book doesn't seem to say what you claim and in any case it is referring to a single panchayat - that's not much use. I can't find the last book you mention - is it this? - Sitush (talk) 15:19, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Sitush iam mentioning (above u have put all kamma reddy same )while the reference for shudra is for kamma and kapu caste. Rimeg (talk) 16:06, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

I mean refrnece is for munru kapu turpu kapu while above u have written all kapus (kamma reddy) these caste have different status tahts what i meant. Rimeg (talk) 16:08, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Last book is reference for balija caste not for kapu. Rimeg (talk) 16:12, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Guhrye book mention clearly that there is a difference between sat shudra and shudra. Rimeg (talk) 16:18, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Second book(fertility) clearly mention that munru kapu etc were peasant kulams while reddy etc are higher kulams. Rimeg (talk) 16:19, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

I think we agree that sat shudra was seen by the Brits as slightly different to shudra. I think they felt obliged to come up with a new category because of the sheer amount of pressure they were getting from caste associations etc. It does, of course, have no place in the varna system but then the classic varna system had no place in the south of India anyway. But I am still finding it very difficult to spot sources that actually say this or that caste were sat shudra. I am probably misunderstanding you again but this article says the Kammas and Reddys split from the Kapus some time after the Kaktiya dynasty. I don't think the sat shudra thing existed before the British Raj - they created it or at least accepted the made-up classification under pressure from certain communities. I'm guessing that some of those communities are the ones you are writing about.

I am going to look into the origins of the sat shudra classification and I am going to do it over the next 24 hours. I realise you have been very patient and polite about this and you deserve a big chunk of my time, starting tomorrow. - Sitush (talk) 19:45, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Can we mention classic varna model didnot apply in south india also on balija page can we mention sat shudra instead of shudra that would be much help. Rimeg (talk) 07:09, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

• Let me work through the stuff. I've found seven papers at JSTOR 23619174 that mention sat shudra or some variant (sat-shudra etc). I'm not going to bother with any that are printed in Economic and Political Weekly. I've just read one, by Gail Omvedt. She is a Marxist historian and the first relevant thing she says (pp 143-144) is to explain what another Marxist historian said, being V. I. Pavlov: Pavlov's use [of the word peasant] in fact seems to be more or less consistent with the traditional indigenous understanding which classified as kisans or cultivating rayats only specific castes of shudra "peasants" viz. Jats, Kurmis, Yadavs, Ahirs, Maratha-Kunbis, Reddis, Kammas etc. On p 145 she is then getting into her own theory and says In some cases the distinction between the mirasdar-landlord and cultivator-tenant - was a caste distinction in which mirasdars or maliks were Brahmins, Rajputs, Bhumihars, Vellalas and other high castes that claimed either twice-born or as in the case of the Vellalas sat-shudra status, while under-tenants, share-croppers etc were lower caste shudras. In other cases the same shudra peasants (Maratha-Kunbis, Kammas, Reddis, Jats etc) could be at times low-level peasants holder or share-croppers and at other times landlords. And that is the only mention of sat-shudra in the entire paper. - Sitush (talk) 08:11, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

• Another one - JSTOR 24455385 - is of no use. The only mention of shudra or sat shudra is a single sentence that just says the sat shudra were status conscious. Of course, pretty much every caste was in the British era. - Sitush (talk) 08:18, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

• JSTOR 44147894 is also a mis-fire. JSTOR 44142879 mentions satshudra as appearing in inscriptions over 1000 years ago and he seems to equate them with "peasant-warrior groups" of that time. No sure what to make of that. While he writes of the Pallavas, Kakatiyas, Chalukyas etc, he doesn't mention the name of a single caste group in the context of this. And JSTOR 44158860 simply uses the one I've just mentioned (44147894) in a footnote. That's it from JSTOR, so I will move on to Project MUSE. - Sitush (talk) 08:34, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

• There is only one hit at Project MUSE, which is mostly discussing Christian missionary interpretations of Tamil society. The book is Brook, Timothy and André Schmid. Nation Work: Asian Elites and National Identities. University of Michigan Press, 2000. here. P 68 has The fact that there had been at least three powerful Saiva Siddhanta mutts in the Tamil region led exclusively by higher non-Brahman Tamil castes since the late-sixteenth century also attests to the elite Tamil involvement and investment in Saiva Siddhanta. These powerful centers of Saivite orthodoxy had earlier histories of contestations with th all-India Brahmanical dharmic norms — norms that were generally inimical to the "Sudra" leadership of Hindu religious life (Koppedrayer 1991). These contestations had not, however, sought to overturn Brahmanical norms (as the missionaries sought) as much as to justify the leadership of sat sudra or "clean Sudra" castes in Hindu religious institutions. Perhaps of more relevance here is a second bit on p 80, a footnote: South India, and more particularly the Tamil region, was an especially suitable site for such a religio-cultural intervention, for not only was the Brahman population fairly small but Brahmanism and Sanskritic culture had experienced substantial resistance in earlier times. The structural configuration of the system of social stratification in South India, with its unusual anomaly in the ranking of castes, was also favorable for such an intervention. The powerful landholding castes that were next in rank only to the Brahmans were assigned the fairly low and demeaning varna category of Sudra. Unlike the situation in North India, where the Hindu population had a fair distribution of the four varna groupings of Brahman, Kshatriya, Vaishya, and Sudra, South India had only two categories, Brahman and Sudra. The dharma, or duty, of a Sudra according to the classical Sanskritic legal texts was one of menial work and service to the three higher varnas. - Sitush (talk) 09:00, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

• There is also only one hit at Oxford Journals and that is a paper about the situation in colonial Bengal doi:10.1093/jhs/hiaa003. I am reading it now and will update but, obviously, it's not really about the right place. Update: as expected, it is useless for our purposes - one mention and that just verifies that the term exists. - Sitush (talk) 09:13, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

• Nothing at Taylor & Francis other than the article about cochineal that I've already mentioned hosted by JSTOR. Moving on to Sage Journals now. - Sitush (talk) 09:29, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

• Sage Journals has four results, one of which is the Gail Omvedt paper I've already looked at. Will update. - Sitush (talk) 09:32, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Hi Sitush, please see:

• Béteille, André (1965), Caste, Class, and Power: Changing Patterns of Stratification in a Tanjore Village, University of California Press, pp. 79–80, ISBN 978-0-520-02053-5

which is seems pretty definitive to me. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 09:55, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Yes, Omvedt mentioned that. I'm currently reading doi:10.1177/001946468502200304, which is a study based in two villages of Bellary district. I'm always wary of village studies but we'll see. - Sitush (talk) 10:02, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Rimeg sorry but I simply do not see what you are claiming. You seem to be deriving a conclusion by adding together various sources and applying a bit of your own knowledge - that is WP:SYNTHESIS and original research, which we are not permitted to do. I think Kautilya3 probably agrees that what you want to see isn't achievable, and I know RegentsPark has taken a look at it also. It is verifiable that the classical varna system does not apply but that usually only needs to be said if we have a situation where caste warriors are trying to claim kshatriya status. - Sitush (talk) 13:03, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

No sitush I understood kshtairya status can't be given I just wanted u to mention that classical varna system doesnot follow in south india. Rimeg (talk) 14:20, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Ok sitush if we can't mention it thanks for ur work . Rimeg (talk) 14:22, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Nothing can be done . Rimeg (talk) 14:24, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

It creates confusion if a north Indian see the caste that's what I meant. Rimeg (talk) 14:26, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

List of Dynasties associated with Kapu caste

List of Dynasties associated with Kapu caste ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.121.49.238 (talk) 17:19, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 March 2017

The following should be removed as this is incorrect. "The Kapu are considered to be a Shudra community in the traditional Hindu ritual ranking system known as varna." Varna system is not strictly followed in South India. Note that most Naidus belong to this caste and Naidus are similar to "Naik" (leader) or "Nair" I this modern age, statements such as this are insult to the people belonging to this community and against basic human values of respect for each other. "Shudra" literally means "Lowly" which means that other people are a superior race. This is definitely sounds like a "Racist" statement. 108.35.126.14 (talk) 14:53, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

 Not done it clearly states "traditional Hindu ritual ranking system" and AFAIK that is true - we do not re-write or whitewash history. - Arjayay (talk) 10:32, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

[User:Arjayay|Arjayay] why are you keep citing traditional Hindu values when those values hold no value in south India? There's is no four cast based system in south India as there is in north why is it too hard for you to understand? Can you prove to me which document claims Balija and Telaga caste as backward ? They are indeed forward castes. Why it is wrong mentioned? I want you to open your eyes are read this article: http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/andhra-pradesh/telaga-community-to-bat-for-bc-status/article7853063.ece — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.213.254.112 (talk) 00:20, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

I agree with the editor, Varna System was never a part of south India, Therefore, It should be removed from the article. </ref> Fox, Richard G. (January 1969), "Varna Schemes and Ideological Integration in Indian Society", Comparative Studies in Society and History, 11 (01): 27–45, doi:10.1017/S0010417500005132: "When recognition of a regional varna scheme has been unavoidable—such as the tripartite division into Brahmins, non-Brahmins, and Untouchables in much of the South— it has been explained in terms of an historical corruption or breakdown of the standard four-class system, rather than regarded as a functional entity in its own right."</ref> — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chrnds (talk • contribs) 23:31, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

Kapu caste percentage in USA, UK and Australia  ?

Kapu caste percentage in USA, UK and Australia  ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.233.119.139 (talk) 19:08, 13 October 2020 (UTC)