Talk:Junior Eurovision Song Contest 2023

Malta

Someone has changed Malta so that it’s now in their own column, how do we fix it? 72.79.26.151 (talk) 17:01, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

"Fia" vs "FIA"

Firstly, edit warring over this is never constructive and normally gets you blocked from editing, so please stop. This should have been brought to the talk page a long time ago. (Pinging some of the participants: Dominikcapuan, Escj123, EuroMalena.)

If I understand correctly, the argument for "FIA" is that's what Junioreurovision.tv uses (see here). The argument for "Fia" is that's how many other sources spell her name (including Eurovision.de; see here). I saw Dominikcapuan has repeatedly cited WP:NCCPT, but after reading that I don't see how it applies to this discussion, so maybe you could explain?

Personally, I don't think the EBU's website per se dictates how things are spelled on Wikipedia (for the same reasons as Wikipedia:Official names § Rationale). The fact that "Fia" is more common as well as more natural in English makes me prefer that spelling. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 23:56, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

@Jochem van Hees: First of all... regarding the use of WP:NCPPT, I personally felt that it was the WP most inherent to the issue, since it explained how to write names (and pages in general) in this platform.

Regarding the name i would prefer "Fia" in lower case too for several reasons, first of all in the end it is just a graphic rendering, but it does not mean that it should also be used on Wikipedia (especially if it is not an acronym) see for example the page of the singer Yungblud, whose name is often mentioned in All caps in media but here, unlike the rest, there is a common standardization of the name.

Also I want to mention that there have been cases similar to this matter (ex. Dutch band Fource) that, although on the junioreurovision.tv they were graphically rendered in all caps, but on the JESC 2018 Wikipedia page it was decided to leave the name in lower case, following the common standardization. So, imho, I don't understand why there is a struggle when there were similar cases and they were fixed accordingly. — Dominikcapuan (talk) 04:21, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Oh, I thought WP:NCCPT was part of the article titles policy, but apparently there is one paragraph also about the article body. Okay...

But yeah, Fource is also a good example. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 10:42, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

@Jochem van Hees: Since none of the other users are unwilling to intervene in the discussion, and they still continue with the edit war indifferently despite being explained why their editing methodology is inaccurate, what should be done in this case? Because I honestly can't and won't let this matter drag itself until the actual holding of the event.... — Dominikcapuan (talk) 16:00, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

I think the standard course of action in such case is to take the matter to WP:ANEW. I normally wait with that until one of them has violated the three revert rule, as that makes it quite straightforward for that editor to be blocked (though in the process you should be careful not to violate that rule yourself). But in this case it might be worth it to bring it up now already? Especially because there's a good chance some of these IPs/accounts belong to the same person. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 16:38, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

@Jochem van Hees: That would actually make sense... but now the user @Escj123:, in addition to using my talk page as a reason for page edits (?) and making a possible "vandalism/message" on my user page, has already sent the edit war through ten edits (six of the with the tags Revert/Manual Revert) in the last 48 hours. I think there is officially a real reason for an official report. Dominikcapuan (talk) 18:01, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Y'all seem to be handling this properly. WP:ANEW is the right option if the editors are not participating in this discussion. This type of conflict comes up periodically, but as far as I can tell, it's not a matter of 'what's the official name' (because Fia and FIA are the same name); one's just a stylization, which we happen to not allow. Grk1011 (talk) 21:40, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

@Jochem van Hees @Grk1011 If I may enter the debate, the official Junior Eurovision 2023 website spells out FIA in capital letters, not lower case. The same goes for the official clip on the Junior Eurovision YouTube channel, where once again, FIA is written in capital letters. Personally, as far as Junior Eurovision 2023 is concerned, I think Wikipedia should use the official Junior Eurovision 2023 channels (as this is the most official source for this subject) and leave it in capital letters. France-Pt9301 (talk) 22:07, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

The official Eurovision website for the German broadcaster ([1]) consistently uses sentence case for the artist's name however. It's not as simple as saying "this is the only official source so we must go by what they say". As Grk1011 rightly points out it's not a case of right vs. wrong name, it's the same name just one way is stylised differently, which goes against Wikipedia policy. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 10:59, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

@Sims2aholic8The official Eurovision website of the German channel is however by the organization of this 2023 edition and I confirm to you that there is no more official than the organizers themselves . If the organizers put FIA stylized in capitals, then they might as well put it in capitals 🤷🏻‍♂️ France-Pt9301 (talk) 15:46, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

@France-Pt9301: As has already been said earlier in this discussion, in these cases it is not a question of how a name is transcribed, but we must rely solely on the guidelines regarding the structure and transcription of a page on Wikipedia. And some rules that specify how to behave in this way are WP:NCCPT and WP:ALLCAPS. Furthermore, as has already been said, there have been similar cases (Fource - Netherlands 2017) which followed the usual formatting following all the guidelines of the English Wikipedia. - Dominikcapuan (talk) 15:42, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

@DominikcapuanI maintain that if the organizers style FIA in capital letters, it should be written in capital letters because Wikipedia is supposed to be based on reliable and official sources, and in this case, there are none more official than the organizers, but let's leave Fia in lower case if Wikipedia says so. On the other hand, when it comes to the Netherlands, Italy and Georgia, both the organizers and the media agree on using the ampersand (&) and not the word "and". France-Pt9301 (talk) 15:53, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

@France-Pt9301: The "&" is another stylistic connotation implemented on the official website but which, as with the names in capital letters, cannot be implemented on Wikipedia, especially if the aforementioned duets are rare exceptions and not duets that perform as such as the now disbanded ones could have been [ [Alex & Sierra]]. In these cases, given that they are not artistic duets to be classified as a musical group, the suffix "and" is used to highlight the performances (see the case Max and Anne - Netherlands 2017) which follows, once again, the formatting already mentioned . Ps. let's avoid the use of emojis as a topic of discussion, this is not a forum... Dominikcapuan (talk) 15:58, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

@DominikcapuanThe difference between Fia and & is that for the ampersand (&) everyone, whether it's the official Junior Eurovision channels or the media, uses the ampersand, and even at the Junior Songfestival, the ampersand was used. And the emoji wasn't a subject for debate but simply to illustrate my point... France-Pt9301 (talk) 16:07, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Without twiddling our thumbs too much, I invite you to look at the tables of all the previous editions (from 2003 to 2022), where you will be able to personally see that Wikipedia's objective is to transcribe the information according to its own rules, and not to make a mere photocopy by pretending that every single site is a sort of Bible that you have to transcribe verbatim. - Dominikcapuan (talk) 16:14, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

@DominikcapuanAnd I'm not saying that the organizers are a holy book to be repeated word for word, but in the case of the ampersand, everyone uses it, whether it's the national selection for the Netherlands 🇳🇱, the official YouTube channel and the official Junior Eurovision website, or the media... France-Pt9301 (talk) 16:26, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Germany langauge

There seems to be some disagreement about what languages appear at the end of the song. I can't find a reliable source with the lyrics of the song yet (so would identifying the language here count as original research?). Also, I'm not sure if it's even worth adding the note to begin with though, because it's so minor and not even sung by the main artist. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 16:24, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

The French, English, and Spanish phrases at the end are in the official lyrics, which are in the description of the song's official music video. They're faint and in the background, but you can hear them if you listen to the song with good headphones (they come in at 2:32). They are the correct lyrics. CirKill (talk) 19:48, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

There definitely is Dutch in the backings. The first 2 or 3 times it's in German, followed by Dutch and English. I don't speak Spanish or French so I can't tell which of those it is or if they're both used.

I think it's important adding these language, as adding sign language also is. 2A02:A46C:E999:1:B07B:F1B8:B2D3:39ED (talk) 19:59, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

The one you're hearing as Dutch is "sans paroles", which is French, as per the official lyrics that are in the video's description. Then there's "without words" (English), and "sin palabras" (Spanish). There's no Dutch. CirKill (talk) 20:15, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Sign languages ​​shouldn't be listed. Look at Latvia in ESC 2005. Smthngnw (talk) 22:22, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

@Smthngnw: Yeah but on Lithuania in ESC 2011 is still listed tho... I think that when the contest is aired, we can add the use of ASL in the note as an extra detail. Dominikcapuan (talk) 12:38, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

@Jochem van Hees @2A02:A46C:E999:1:B07B:F1B8:B2D3:39ED I'd like to enter into the debate, but in my opinion, the note about the French, Spanish and English lyrics in the German song is useless, because you can't hear them very well and they're not sung by FIA itself, but by pre-recorded backing vocals, which are forbidden on Junior Eurovision day. I think it would be more useful to mention the American sign language interpretation, which is performed by FIA herself over a longer part of the song. France-Pt9301 (talk) 22:14, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

You can hear the French/English/Spanish phrases pretty clearly and they're in the official lyrics. Therefore, they should be listed. The point about them being backing vocals is irrelevant because they could easily be sung by backing singers during the actual event (which is almost certainly what will happen if they bothered to include them in the lyrics).

Agree that the sign language should be mentioned since that's a notable part of the song and its backstory. CirKill (talk) 22:21, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

@CirKillBeing French and speaking fluent French, I can confirm that the French lyrics are not heard clearly. What's more, they are not sung by FIA itself, but by pre-recorded backing vocals, which will be banned from the live show in Nice. And I doubt very much that any hearts will be singing these passages in English, Spanish and French, which don't even last 2 seconds if you add them up in the song. I think the mention of the American sign language interpretation is more relevant, as it's present on almost the entire song and is done by FIA itself. France-Pt9301 (talk) 15:41, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Leaving aside the fact that "I'm French and I speak French" doesn't seem to me to be an excellent argument for including or not information regarding the use of multiple words, to date we have as our only reference the lyrics of the song transcribed in the description by this video from the official JESC YouTube account. And the aforementioned text, whether sung by the performer or not, actually mentions the use of languages that are not related to German. IMHO I think that, as was also done during previous editions, we must mainly evaluate the content of the song (also because we are talking about a Song Contest), therefore I believe that both the three "foreign" languages can be included in the note relating to the language of the song, is the inclusion of the use of ASL as part of the live performance as in the similar case implemented by Lithuania at ESC 2011. - Dominikcapuan (talk) 15:52, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

@DominikcapuanTechnically speaking, being French and fluent in French, I can recognize French in a song better and more easily than someone who doesn't speak it ... Beyond that, the lyrics in French, Spanish and English are indeed mentioned in the video description, but this description doesn't distinguish between lyrics sung by the artist herself (which we'll hear live on stage in Nice) and pre-recorded backing vocals which will be banned 🚫 during the live show in Nice on November 26 and which we won't therefore hear. In addition, the lyrics in French, English and Spanish are insignificant if you look at the length compared to German and American Sign Language. France-Pt9301 (talk) 16:02, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

@France-PT9301: Did you think that instead to the use of recorded backing vocals, the German delegation could use live backing vocals for their performance, so I would say to wait before saying that "we won't therefore hear". Since none of us owns a Crystal Ball, I don't think a person has the power to decide what is inherent to include in the note or not. As I have already explained, we must first take into consideration the lyrics of the song in its most integral form, therefore given that it presence of these languages they must be inserted, just as they were inserted for the songs that have a foreign word that is repeated throughout the text (ex. La Festa - Netherlands 2022). Dominikcapuan (talk) 16:10, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

@DominikcapuanThe German delegation may use live hearts on stage, but they will sing the lyrics in German. To take Luna's example, the festa she repeats several times in the song is an Italian word, but you haven't put Italian in the language despite the fact that the word is sung by the singer herself, distinctly and repeated several times, for the simple reason that it's only a tiny part of the song. This logic also applies to Ohne Worte, where the English, French and Spanish lyrics don't even make up 0.5% of the song, and are therefore irrelevant to specify. France-Pt9301 (talk) 16:32, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

I don't understand what you mean? For "La Festa" there is a note saying it contains words in Italian (in exactly the same way as the note for Germany that you've been removing). ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 17:38, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

@Jochem van HeesThere is a note, but in the case of "la festa", it's justified. it's justified because the Italian lyrics are sung by the singer (Luna) herself, they're sung clearly and the Italian lyrics make up a large part of the song, whereas for Ohne Worte, the English, Spanish and French lyrics are difficult to understand, they're not sung by the singer herself but by pre-recorded hearts and they only make up 0.5% of the song... France-Pt9301 (talk) 17:44, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Why is that a requirement? It's still true that those lyrics are in the song, so the note is still correct right? ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 22:38, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

@Jochem van Hees: Thank you! This is what I'm trying to make @France-Pt9301: understand, i.e. that if the source (the lyrics from the official JESC video) attests to the presence of other languages but that their quantity is still not sufficient to make it bilingual, they should be transcribed in the efn note. Also, I want to remind @France-Pt9301: that the spoken languages (English, Spanish etc.) must be separated from the natural languages (ASL), so the note should be transcribed as follows << Contains phrases in French, English and Spanish; American Sign Language will also used during the live televised performance. >> following the example implemented in the Eurovision Song Contest 2011 page dedicated to the Lithuanian entry (C'est ma vie). ― Dominikcapuan (talk) 16:48, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

@Dominikcapuan The problem is that while there are strong indications that the song will be performed in American Sign Language on November 26, there's no confirmation of this, so for the moment it's best to say that (in the official clip at least) the song is also performed in American Sign Language, and change later when the information is confirmed. France-Pt9301 (talk) 18:36, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

@Jochem van Hees @Ætoms, the French, English and Spanish lyrics are mentioned in the note as they appear in the official video clip presented on the official YouTube channel of Eurovision Junior, despite the fact that it is not known whether they will be sung live at the show on November 26 in Nice. In the same vein, it's worth mentioning the American Sign Language interpretation, as it can be seen in the official clip. France-Pt9301 (talk) 16:29, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

@Agwjkl Read what I've marked instead of deleting ... France-Pt9301 (talk) 17:34, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Tbh fair point... As long as it indeed says that it also has a sign language interpretation, not that the song is in sign language (because a song is audio), I'm fine with it. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 20:33, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

translations on participating countries' table

Is it really necessary with those 'In english' part of the countries' table? Vesparaw07 (talk) 14:30, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Sati for Armenia

Even tho Armenia hasn’t officially announced anything it’s kind obvious that it is Sati as instagram user escinider also said that toktoine producer of Malena’s songs will be one of the lyrics wich is true as sati posted a pic of her in his Studio so I think it’s pretty obvious that she is representing Armenia This Year ItsAnthony99 (talk) 09:06, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

@ItsAnthony99: When there is an announcement from APMTV or the EBU the artist will be included in the table with all the appropriate data, thus avoiding possible WP:CRYSTAL BALL. ― Dominikcapuan (talk) 16:23, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Social media posts are generally not reliable sources. Unless there is a reliable source that confirms that Sati is the Armenian entrant, claiming so is original research. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 10:25, 22 October 2023 (UTC)