Talk:Juan Crow

"Juan Crow" does NOT predate the 21st century

There was never such a thing as "Juan Crow laws" before Journalist Rob Lovato coined the term to criticize immigration enforcement in the early 2000s. Claims that there was a system of "Juan Crow" laws in the 19th century that "codified segregation and anti-miscegenation" are not supported by any reliable sources. It's not part of the historical record. Juan Crow laws don;'t exist. This is a myth that's spreading on the internet. The two sources used to make these wild claims, are not reliable sources. I'm removing both sources and the claims made. This article is spreading revisionism.Wrventura (talk) 11:43, 3 June 2021 (UTC) — Wrventura (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

I now agree with you. Toddst1 (talk) 17:51, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

The term vs the effect

However there are well documented instances where laws have discriminated against latinos and court cases that ended them. This term reflects that. The term did not exist before the 21st century but the laws that the term described certainly predate the 21st century and the article should reflect that. Saying "Juan Crow" didn't exist is misleading. The term didn't exist. Juan Crow discrimination certainly did.

The discussion below on Historicization touches on this.

The article on Jim Crow doesn't focus on the term - it focuses on the system of laws that created the discrimination that the term represents. This article should do so similarly.

Toddst1 (talk) 15:47, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

No. Jim Crow laws were actual segregation and anti-miscegenation statutes that are on the books. There were no actual laws on the books that discriminated against Mexicans. This is an article just about a recently coined term and how it is being used today. Wrventura (talk) 16:55, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Jim Crow also refers to government policies of segregation of blacks, like the Mexican segregation policies that Mendez v. Westminster overturned. As a WP:SPA, Wrventura's comments and editing history make it clear that Wrventura is only here to try to whitewash this article and rewrite history. Wrventura's opinion should be regarded in that context. Toddst1 (talk) 05:21, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

It is a historical fact that Mexicans were considered white, and that there was never any legal discrimination against them. You think that's "white washing", but that's just the truth. 2603:7000:9306:F025:A8B6:754A:484F:9954 (talk) 17:39, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

References

Wiki Education assignment: Gender and Sexuality in Latinx Pop Culture

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 16 January 2023 and 2 June 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Priscilla023 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Brianda (Wiki Ed) (talk) 17:57, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Juan Crow Era

The definition of the era that was in the article was nonsense. An era is not a system of laws, it is a period of time. The cited source was also nonsense. I've removed the section since it stated the era was not a period of time.

I'm not denying there is such an era - there clearly is, but this is an encyclopedia and if material is unintelligible, it doesn't belong in the article. Toddst1 (talk) 22:16, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

"Juan crow" is not a system of laws either. Wrventura (talk) 01:23, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

@Toddst1 Juan Crow is NOTHING. It's not an era, nor a system of laws that ever existed - not part of the legal history of the United States. A Journalist invented the concept from whole cloth in the media in 2008. We are witnessing people fabricate grievances that never happened to them. 100.16.207.2 (talk) 15:41, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Historicization

Historicization refers to fundamental interpretative attitude. Wikipedia is not the place to express your interpretation of historical facts, nor to WP:SYNTHESIZE others' citable statements into your interpretation. This is an encyclopedia article, not an essay. Toddst1 (talk) 04:58, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

"historicization" also means to make something appear historical - such as people today using the recently coined term "Juan Crow" in a historical context, pretending that there was such a thing as "Juan Crow Laws" in the 19th/20th century even though no such legislation exists. Wrventura (talk) 05:14, 5 April 2023 (UTC) — Wrventura (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Thanks. That makes sense in this context.

Given that Miriam Webster doesn't list the word in their standard dictionary and the Wikipedia article on Historicization has a different explanation of the term, I suggest the wording of that section title be changed to be clearer. The title hints at revisionism. The system of discriminatory laws has been around for a very long time.

As I mentioned above, the article on Jim Crow doesn't focus on the term - it focuses on the system of laws that created the discrimination that the term represents. This article should do so similarly.Toddst1 (talk) 15:35, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

No, there were never any laws that discriminated against Mexican Americans. "Jim Crow laws" refer to actual segregation and anti-miscegenation laws that are on the books. There was no anti-Mexican legislation of any kind. So, what the term "Juan Crow" refers to, did not exist. Historians today are using the term "Juan Crow" to refer to unofficial social discrimination. Wrventura (talk) 16:50, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, Wrventura is misinformed and/or trying to revise history. No official segregation of mexicans? BZZZZT! Mendez v. Westminster overturned that official policy in California and the editor's history shows Wrventura is well aware of that. In Texas, there was Delgado v. Bastrop ISD that outlawed government policies segregating Mexicans. (@Turn35s1: appears to be working on that much needed Wikipedia article.)

Wrventurais a WP:SPA whose protracted attempts to whitewash this article and Mendez v. Westminster smack of WP:ADVOCACY, denial and an attempt to revise history. Wrventura's opinion should be regarded in that context. Toddst1 (talk) 05:15, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

LOL! If you were familiar with those cases (Delgado, Mendez, etc), you would understand that I'm not "white-washing" anything. The argument made in both of those cases is that Mexican children are WHITE, and that the special education was not legal. That's the reality of the history. 2603:7000:9306:F025:A8B6:754A:484F:9954 (talk) 17:32, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

The Legislative Record of "Juan Crow" laws in the 19th and 20th centuries

A growing number of people today believe that there was a system of laws that segregated, discriminated and disenfranchised Mexican-Americans in Texas and the South West in the early 20th century. If you are one of the people that believes that such laws existed, please find the legislative record of the "Juan Crow Laws" and add the source to this article so people can understand this history and see it for themselves.

Jim Crow Laws are well documented. Please find the "Juan Crow laws" to make this article better and contribute to wikipedia. That should be easy to find if they really existed. Wrventura (talk) 17:51, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Attempting to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS

To other editors coming across the discussions here, please take a look at the editing history of User:Wrventura as you consider their comments on this article. This editor has a very narrow focus of POV editing around Juan Crow, discrimination against latinos and court cases related to that subject. The editor appears to be attempting to revise history on this subject, aka WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Toddst1 (talk) 04:33, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

This is a personal attack, and does not belong on the talk page. aka

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:AOTE&redirect=no

The editing history of users normally reflects their interests - that does not mean that they aren't contributing to wikipedia. I've added more sources to this article than you have. If you want to settle the content dispute, all you have to do is find the legislative record of the "Juan Crow laws", instead of attacking me. Wrventura (talk) 17:42, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

My comment is asking editors to evaluate your comments in the context of the content you've contributed. Your edits speak volumes about your WP:AGENDA. My comment is perfectly in line with WP:NPA and fully appropriate in this context. Toddst1 (talk) 19:34, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

Juan Crow Update

With consideration of the Juan Crow page, I was able to gather citations to back up the information I’ve added. I went back to the original source from Roberto Lovato and detailed the definition of Juan Crow. Numerous scholars, which I’ve included, now use the term Juan Crow to describe the historical events of racial segregation, brutality against Mexican-Americans, and the educational realities of Latino-identifying students in the U.S. Based on that, I created two new sections called Mob Violence & Juan Crow in Education. I was neutral and factual while writing my portion of the page. Thank you. Priscilla023 (talk) 04:26, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Your rewrite is too long, verbose - in addition to being poorly written. This article should briefly describe what the term "Juan Crow" refers to and how it is being used today - not a lengthy discussion about those subjects. Wrventura (talk) 13:20, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Her edit is fine. Toddst1 (talk) 02:44, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, @Toddst1

I want to inform the editors and viewers of the page that I will be working on bettering the anchor paragraphs within my sections so I may address the contemporary authors that utilize the term Juan Crow to describe past events. I will also be tuning citations. Thank you. Priscilla023 (talk) 19:19, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Time for a WP:SPLIT?

Based on the back and forth that's been going on for this page for a while, I wonder if a split makes sense? It seems like much of the tension and WP:WAR is coming from the fact that this page is basically doing double duty describing two completely different concepts. Perhaps this page should become a disambiguation page and then there is one article for the Robert Lovato coined term titled something like Juan Crow (political term) and another for the term used by historians titled Juan Crow era? Does that make sense? CarmenEsparzaAmoux (talk) 15:12, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

@CarmenEsparzaAmoux No. The term used by historians is the same term. Lovato fabricated the "Juan Crow" concept, then after it became popular among activists, people started to believe that "Juan Crow" was a real thing, and now they're writing it into history. There's no record of "Juan Crow Laws" or of a "Juan Crow era" before 2008. Lovato is the origin of the term. 100.16.207.2 (talk) 15:35, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

@CarmenEsparzaAmoux No. Making a separate "Juan Crow era" page would legitimize it. There's never been any Juan Crow laws in American history nor an era. It's just a political term coined by a Journalist in the media. Recently some historians started to use Lovato's term in a historical context. Wrventura (talk) 15:51, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Ok, wait, but they're definitely not describing the same thing. Lovato uses the term to describe a contemporary system of exploitation targeting undocumented immigrants, and historians use it to analyze a historical form of white supremacy that discriminated against Mexicans, Mexican Americans and other non-white groups in the U.S. Southwest.

Lovato writes, "Call it Juan Crow: the matrix of laws, social customs, economic institutions and symbolic systems enabling the physical and psychic isolation needed to control and exploit undocumented immigrants."

Then the Pulitzer Prize-winning historian Kelly Lytle Hernandez states, "There’s a particular form of white supremacy that’s developed across the southwestern United States that Mexican immigrants confront, and that’s called Juan Crow. Obviously, it’s aligned with Jim Crow occurring throughout the U.S. South but also across the United States. It’s forms of segregation in housing and in schooling. It’s lower wages, more dangerous jobs. It’s an immigration regime that’s beginning to build in the early 20th century that targets people from Mexico, in particular, but nonwhite migrants from south of the border and Asian immigrants, as well. And it’s also, as we talked about before, the extraordinary levels of racial violence that Mexicans and Mexican Americans were confronting here in the United States."

The first term describes a system that targets individuals specifically for their undocumented status, whereas the second describes a system of racial hierarchy which targeted both non-white immigrants and citizens alike. CarmenEsparzaAmoux (talk) 16:17, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

The fact that some historians today are using Lovato's term differently (for ambiguous forms of defacto discrimination in the 20th) does not change it's origin in 2008. Both usages of the term can be mentioned in this article. There was no "Juan Crow" before Lavato. Wrventura (talk) 16:36, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Wait, but that's not even true either. Gerald Torres uses it in the same way as Lytle Hernandez in his "The Elusive Goal of Equal Educational Opportunity" chapter from June 2006. The concept of a "Juan Crow era" (pre-Mendez v. Westminster, Delgado v. Bastrop, VRA Section 203) predates Lovato. CarmenEsparzaAmoux (talk) 16:52, 29 April 2023 (UTC); edited 20:42, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

@CarmenEsparzaAmoux. Can you find a single reference to "Juan Crow laws" or a "Juan Crow era" before the 2000s? If there was really such a period, surely someone would have mentioned it before the 2000s. 2603:7000:9306:F025:F4E5:6BD0:FD5C:C572 (talk) 17:11, 10 June 2023 (UTC)