Talk:Jollof rice

RfC on etymology/origins section(s)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Closed as invalid. RfCs should address a single topic, and in specific enough terms that consensus can be weighed on how to proceed. See WP:RFC. RfCs are not for open-ended wondering if agreement on something "is possible". I would recommend opening the three separate matters as separate threads (or perhaps two threads, if the nomenclature matters can be combined), then using RfC only if consensus cannot be easily reached on one of them, which seems unlikely, since these are basic matters that can be addressed by consulting reliable sources. If the sources conflict, then WP's job is to note that they do so, not try to determine WP:TRUTH on our own.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  17:45, 20 December 2016 (UTC) (non-admin closure)

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{{rfc|hist|soc|lang|style|rfcid=540DCF6}} Is it possible to agree on one account of the various origin stories for Jollof rice? And of the etymological theories for the name? As a second, separate related question should Jollof be capitalized? I thought I read it might be from Wolof (sp?) in which case it is a proper name? Or not? Elinruby (talk) 11:28, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Meta Discussion:

Can the RFC author propose specific text to vote for or against? If not please cancel the RFC, the RFC is too general. CuriousMind01 (talk) 11:33, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

I agree with this. An RfC impliedly asking a committee to draft part of an article is unlikely to reach consensus. But a bold proposal asking for an up/down vote (and, inevitably, proposed adjustments) might.

I would also like to see the second, separate question as a separate RfC with a separate invitation list, so we aren't bothering linguistics and style afficionados with questions about food. Bryan Henderson (giraffedata) (talk) 18:44, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

It's badly worded and ignores our polices on sources and NPOV. The capitalization question should rely on sources also. Doug Weller talk 19:14, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Discussion:

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Origin dispute, 2022

As noted in a discussion above from 2016, "There's a separate article on thieboudienne, where it is described as "a traditional dish from Senegal", with fish as a mandatory ingredient." This article is about a more general idea of the recipe, a recipe which various West African countries have their own version of. No one is disputing that thieboudienne (or ceebu jën) is from Senegal. The source that User:FromSenegal continues inserting (while removing existing sources) does not mention Jollof rice, but is rather about ceebu jen.[1]. Some articles discussing the origins and dispute:

• How Jollof rice became West Africa’s iconic dish and a point of banter between Africans, from Quartz Africa; The most adopted theory for the expansion of the dish explains Jollof Rice as having its origins in the Senegambia region of west Africa, in the ancient Wolof or Jolof Empire, during the 14th-16th century. The former empire is located in what is considered to be parts of modern-day Senegal, The Gambia, and Mauritania.
• West Africa steams over jollof rice war from the BBC; As far as jollof's origin is concerned, Senegal and Gambia can make forceful claims purely on linguistic and geographical point of views.

FromSenegal has also repeatedly removed a section sourced to a food and agriculture historian, James C. McCann, who also disputes the notion that the dish originated in a single country. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 01:28, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

I added sources from Senegalese historians and food historians, the country where it originates from. McCann is not the spokesperson of said dish nor its origin. https://www.yummymedley.com/thieboudienne-senegalese-rice-fish/ FromSenegal (talk) 02:25, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Please reread WP:RS so you can understand the problem here, FromSenegal. --Yamla (talk) 12:27, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-41053424 source said its origin is Senegal. Another source where it says the same https://www.yummymedley.com/thieboudienne-senegalese-rice-fish/ . also on the Wikipedia article the word ceebu jën is mentioned. There are lot of sources confirming the Senegalese origin of said dish. The name Jollof rice refers to empire of Jollof. So what do you want more? FromSenegal (talk) 13:34, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

YummyMedley, really?!? Again, you seem to fundamentally misunderstand WP:RS. This is an important policy and you need to go and reread it. The BBC blog post notes both Senegal and Gambia may make claims as the originators of jollof rice, but doesn't firmly identify the originating nation. --Yamla (talk) 13:49, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Why are you just focussing on one source when the most reliable of all i.e UNESCO declared its origin as Senegal. Do you have more reliable sources? I ask you to provide them. FromSenegal (talk) 13:53, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

another soure https://www.amazon.com/Mots-du-patrimoine-French/dp/2914610335 I ask you again to provide sources. FromSenegal (talk) 14:02, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

will you provide sources since you seem to be better informed than I am? FromSenegal (talk) 14:18, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Jambalaya

How is African jollof different from Cajun jambalaya? Did jambalaya get influenced and originate from come from jollof? Lmharding (talk) 15:17, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

IP edits

Wish I could discuss this with the IP who said much of African history is undocumented and that can pose problems when it comes to adding reliable empirical sourcing but it’s best to let the culture and customs (barring disingenuous intentions) be told by either the people themselves or the people who actually know about it. References should be appropriate when used but if there aren’t any when I’m the one doing the editing, you can rest assured that I know what I’m talking about. but it looks like they're IP hopping.

IP, if you're seeing this, come in and discuss. We can't rest assured you know what you're talking about. We do understand the difficulties of finding documentation for African history, and we want to fix it, but using your personal knowledge -- when we have literally no idea who you are and, because your IP keeps changing, what your editing history is -- won't work here, as you could literally be anyone. Please consider creating an account. Valereee (talk) 12:07, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

edit warring

IP, let's discuss. Valereee (talk) 23:43, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

I have added a source from ny times why did you lock the article for no reason? Cani98f (talk) 23:56, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Hey, @Cani98f. I protected because of the edit war, which is disruptive. The best way to deal with edits that others are objecting to not to edit war, it is to come in here to the talk page and persuade people why you're right. Valereee (talk) 00:02, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

The source I added stated that jolof originated in Saint-Louis, Senegal which is correct. The other source is not accurate can you unlock the page to add the right source and make the correct edit? Cani98f (talk) 00:05, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

So that other editors can follow this conversation and we're all clear on which source you mean, please bring the source you're talking about in here. Valereee (talk) 00:07, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

the following are correct 1 2 3

the previous source is a fabricated myth. Cani98f (talk) 00:14, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

The existing text and source said it originated in North Senegal. Are you saying here now that that isn't true? Earlier, in your edit summaries, you indicated that you were changing the sourcing just to cite someone from Senegal - nationalistic reasons are not valid reasons to change the sourcing of an article. MrOllie (talk) 00:19, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Okay, so the Komolafe/NYT source says Nigerian Jollof is a descendant of thieboudienne and that thieboudienne is a national dish of Senegal and was originally developed in Saint-Louis. What is it that you'd like to change in the article? Valereee (talk) 00:19, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

The Komolafe/NYT source never mentioned thieboudienne originating is Saint-Louis Senegal but the source I provided did. What I edited was correct. Also it would be more appropriate to take source from the country it originated instead of dismissing it. Nigeria don't know Jolof and its origins more than Senegalese themselves. Cani98f (talk) 00:37, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

To quote the existing source: Similarities to its closest culinary relative, the Senegalese national dish thiebou djeun, are immediately apparent. I reiterate: the nationality of its author is not a valid reason to dismiss a source. MrOllie (talk) 00:42, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure why you are constantly bringing nationality but thats not what I'm talking about. I edited an article according to the true history of Jolof and provided sources you are deliberately dismissing. Lot of dishes here are being edited according to sources from the country where it originated from. Jolof orginated in a Senegal and since you wanted a New York Times article I article I provided one from the originators themselves. So let the originators tell the background of their dish themselves. Cani98f (talk) 00:49, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

So let the originators tell the background of their dish themselves. <--- I am responding to comments like this one, were you incorrectly use nationality of the authors as an argument. MrOllie (talk) 00:55, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Looks like there are two Komolafe/NYT articles, and. You're saying you want to use one but not the other? Valereee (talk) 00:50, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

What I previously edit and the following are correct. 1 2 3

How can edit it back since you locked the article? Cani98f (talk) 00:59, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

You can't edit it back. You have to persuade us why an edit you want to make it better. In order to do that, you have to talk about why you think it's better. You have to explain why you want to remove:

According to African food historian Fran Osseo-Asare, the origins of the dish can be traced to north Senegal, which was ruled by the Wolof or Jolof Empire in the 14th century, spanning parts of today's Senegal, The Gambia and Mauritania, where rice was grown, and which is known as thieboudienne or thiebou djeun, which contains rice, fish, shellfish and vegetables. If made with meat, it is called cheeb u yapp.

and replace it with

According to Senegalese historian Fatima Fall Niang the origins of the dish can be traced to Saint-Louis, north Senegal where it is known as thieboudienne or thiebou djeun, which contains rice, fish, shellfish and vegetables. If made with meat, it is called cheeb u yapp. The dish was then named Jolof rice in English speaking African countries referring to the Jolof empire in the 14th century known as modern day Senegal. Part of Mauritania and The Gambia were also ruled by the Jolof empire.

Why is what Niang (who seems like she may have a conflict of interest) is saying better than what Osseo-Asare is saying?

Valereee (talk) 01:06, 12 August 2024 (UTC) Valereee (talk) 01:06, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

First of all Fatima Fall Niang is a Senegalese historian specialized in Senegalese history. Jollof empire was what we know today as Senegal, parts of countries like Mauritania and the Gambia were ruled by the Jollof empire. Senegal was not a part of the empire, Senegal was the empire, so what Fran Osseo-Asare is saying completely false. Rice was not a part of the dish in the Jollof empire, nor in Mali, the Gambia or Mauritania. Rice was introduced during the French colonization and thieboudienne was developed from it as stated in the articles. What Fran Osseo-Asare is saying is pure imagination its not true. Cani98f (talk) 01:22, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

But we need to see someone saying those things. And Niang seems to be a representative of a group that advocates for Senegal? That's iffy, even for an academic. And more than that, what is she actually saying that is different than what Osseo-Asare, who has no conflict of interest, is saying? Valereee (talk) 01:29, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

I think you're saying Senegal was not a part of the empire, Senegal was the empire, so what Fran Osseo-Asare is saying completely false. and you're saying this is different from north Senegal, which was ruled by the Wolof or Jolof Empire in the 14th century, spanning parts of today's Senegal, The Gambia and Mauritania,. So you're asking that we remove the statement that Senegal was ruled by the Wolof empire? Valereee (talk) 01:41, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Once again Senegal was not ruled by the Wolof empire, Senegal was the Wolof empire and they still the majority in Senegal. Part of Mauritania and the Gambia was ruled by the Jollof or Wolof empire which is today Senegal. Instead of removing that just restore my edit. Cani98f (talk) 02:06, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

I have provided sources unlock the page or restore my edit. Cani98f (talk) 09:58, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

No one is saying sources from the country the dish originated from can't be used, but when academics from two countries are saying two different things, we've got disputed content, and we need to manage that. In the yahoo source, Niang is saying The authorship – and therefore origins – of jollof rice (called ceebu jën in Senegal according to the Wolof spelling) is the subject of a spicy debate between West African nations. In particular, Senegalese, Nigerians and Ghanaians claim ownership. She's also saying The word jollof refers to an ancient kingdom that was a part of Senegal between the 12th and the 13th centuries. Was a part of Senegal. Not was Senegal.

Take the chip off your shoulder. We aren't trying to be obtuse. We are trying to understand exactly what you are saying is wrong. You removed content and an academic source, saying it's wrong, and added different content sourced to another academic who is discussing her own book. We aren't going to simply restore your edit because you say so. We have to understand what you are talking about, and right now I don't think I do. I'm willing to keep trying, but you're going to have to assume good faith that I am sincerely doing so. Valereee (talk) 11:16, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm not trying to convince you what I'm doing is to tell directly from the orinator's source and you locked the page to prevent me from doing so. Your so called academic source is pure imagination its not the history of jolof. Fact is you are trying by all means to cover up the history of the dish by approving doubtful sources while rejecting sources from the people in question with lame excuses. Take your own advice and assume good faith in what I edited. Once again what Niang related it correct, Jollof is a part of Senegal, and not Senegal a part of the Jollof empire like Osseo is fabricating from her pure imagination. Senegal is the Jollof empire.Also if Niang is trying to promote her book so does Osseo. Unlike Niang she is a simple blogger with no academic background however according to you she is more knowledgeable about Senegal than Senegalese themselves. Cani98f (talk) 14:32, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Did you look at the edits I made, per below? Valereee (talk) 15:07, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

These things have been said again and again I even provided sources. Fatima Fall Niang is a Senegalese historian. She also wrote a book about jolof. Plenty of dishes on this site are edited according to source from the country where they originated from. She is a reliable source like every other source.I already explained that Fran Osseo is not correct why are you being obtuse by asking the same the question again? Cani98f (talk) 01:51, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

I've made an edit; see what you think. Valereee (talk) 11:36, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Other sources:

References