Talk:Jack Bruce

Education

"classical training" - If that is known, then more about his education must be known as well. Yes, I want to know.

To avoid any edit wars

Before an edit ware breaks out over something minor like image choice....perhaps it's cast your opinions here. I think the "classic" photo in the info box and the more recent shot included in the section covering more up to date info is the better version. Feel free to comment/discuss other alternatives. Any altering of the current article should stop until some sort of consensus is arrived at here. 156.34.142.158 15:13, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree that a "classic" photo or one taken during the musicians heyday would be best. Thank you 156.34.142.158 for trying to make sure no edit wars break out. - Patman2648 04:54, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup?

The vast majority of this article seems hodge-podged together, with lots of NPOV problems, typos, and unsourced statements thrown in. I'm trying to go through the whole article as I have time, fixing what I can. If someone wants to help out, that would be great. TK-925 20:37, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Myself and I few other users have been trying our best to clean-up the article. I think most of it should be deleted anyway, most of it's not sourced. ĤĶ51→^Łalk 12:36, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Better to find sources for statements than to just delete them, where possible, though I think that'll be somewhat hard with this article. TK-925 18:34, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Good job on the bio...but the group Bruce was in in 2001 with Reid and Worrel, no name is given for it.

Mulehead126 02:32, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

'Interviewed by the London Sunday Times in June 2008 the article began "As the endless online polls on the subject demonstrate, he is not exactly average in the bass-guitar department. Indeed, many consider him to be one of the greatest bass players of all time." When pressed in the interview to name the greatest electric bass players of all time Bruce quickly replied," James Jamerson , Paul McCartney , Jaco Pastorius , and myself. "'

This kind of rubbish doesn't belong in an encyclopedia entry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.157.224.13 (talk) 17:19, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Nonsense. Of course it does. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.169.36.161 (talk) 23:50, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Moved here from article

Trivia

• He and Cream bandmates Ginger Baker and Eric Clapton have all played with each other in different groups. Bruce and Baker played together in the Graham Bond Organisation, BBM and Blues Incorporated, Clapton and Bruce played together near the end of Clapton's tenure with John Mayall's Bluesbreakers, and Baker and Clapton played together in the short-lived supergroup Blind Faith shortly after Cream's breakup.
• Bruce plays harmonica on the Cream songs "Rollin' & Tumblin'," "Traintime," "Take It Back," "Four Until Late," and the studio version of "Spoonful" and "Sitting on top of the world" of 2005 concert.
• He once owned Sanda Island in Scotland.
• When deciding on the set list for the Cream reunion in London, Bruce wanted to include I Feel Free, but was considered too complex. It was not included in the Royal Albert Hall shows, and it wasn't played at the Madison Square Garden shows.
• His first Cream composition was N.S.U. According to the Clapton biography Crossroads: The Life and Music of Eric Clapton, the initials stand for Non-Specific Urethritis, a sexually transmitted infection in men. ...Uh, no. Consider the context. NSU stands for Neckarsulm Strickmaschinen Union, which was a German car manufacturer. They were bought by Volkswagen and merged with Auto Union, becoming AUDI.
• Bruce says in Chris Welch's book, Cream: The Legendary Sixties Supergroup, that he "has no regrets that [he] didn't join Led Zeppelin when they asked [him]". While this may suggest that Bruce was the original choice of Zeppelin founder and guitarist Jimmy Page's for bassist/lead singer, in fact (as mentioned in Stephen Myatt's Book Jack), Page asked him to join as a second bass player, in the mid seventies. (John Paul Jones would eventually join Page's band as bassist and Robert Plant joined as lead vocalist.)
• Bruce wrote the Cream song "We're Going Wrong" after having a fight with his wife, Janet Godfrey.
• Bruce is said to play bass on and co-write the song "Apostrophe" on the 1974 Frank Zappa album of the same name. However, in 1992 he was interviewed by Wieslaw Weiss of Polish rock magazine Tylko Rock, and denied this:

(Tylko Rock, Oct. 1992, pp. 17) "WW: Can you tell me something about your cooperation with Frank Zappa?

• JB: Sure, what do you wish to know? (laughs)
• WW: You appeared on his Apostrophe album...
• JB: Yes, as you know, at the time I was recording an album with Carla Bley, far more interesting one... you heard that?
• WW: Yes, Escalator Over The Hill...
• JB: Right. So Frank, whom I met earlier, appeared one day in the studio and asked me: "Can you take your cello and go to my session?" So I turned up in a NY studio with my cello, I'm listening to his music, pretty awful, and just don't know what to do with myself, and Frank says to me: "Listen, I would like you to play a sound, like this... whaaaaaang!!!" So I did what he asked me to do. Whaaaaaang!!! That was all. That was my input to Frank Zappa's most popular record! (laughs) "

Note: See below for more info on why Jack Bruce's comments about Apostrophe can't be taken seriously--216.160.93.32 (talk) 06:57, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

• He uses a custom Warwick fretless thumb bass.
• Bruce guested with his old friend Dick Morrissey on the last Soft Machine album Land of Cockayne (1981).
• After the death of John Entwistle in the summer of 2002, Bruce replaced Entwistle in the Todd Rundgren-organised all-star band tribute to the Beatles in the A Walk Down Abbey Road tour.

References

Image copyright problem with Image:Cream1993.jpg

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• That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
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This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --05:10, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Another deletion

Have deleted the following - pending references:

It was at this time Bruce co-wrote the title song on Frank Zappa's successful Apostrophe album.

--Technopat (talk) 11:03, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Jack Bruce's quote about playing cello on Apostrophe (') can't be taken seriously because:

A: There is no cello on the Apostrophe (') album or on the title song

B: JB was a friend of drummer Jim Gordon who was a mutual friend with Zappa

C: JB is credited on the album with playing bass and co-writing the song (Bruce/Gordon/Zappa)

D: The song is a jam session with only bass, drums and guitar (Bruce/Gordon/Zappa)

E: The bass playing on Apostrophe sounds just like the unique type of playing JB did with Cream

F: Aside from being brilliant, JB is sometimes known for being argumentative and difficult for other musicians to work with

G: As the quote clearly indicates JB made these comments while laughing about the situation! Clearly he was trying to put one over on the interviewer.

I could go on... but I think I have made my point. Thanks.--216.160.93.32 (talk) 06:46, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Really? Is this only written by Bruce fans?

I started to read this article, and I can barely believe what is said about Bruce's style. Not to mention his imaginary influences on Jaco, and "the future generation of the bassists" including Jeff Berlin. This article is incredibly biased, to say the least. There's no evidence for a lot of these statements. Not to mention the illustrious representation of his improvisational skills...This should be flagged as biased and lacking evidence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gassidy (talk • contribs) 06:14, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. Highly fanboyish and excessive, unsourced WP:POV. Even If I dare to clean it up, the fan boys won't hesitate to revert it a thousand times. --Scieberking (talk) 09:31, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

No excuse though, not to edit it. If necessary, get a lock on the page. --Leahtwosaints (talk) 01:25, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Totally agreed; seems like the official biography of Jack Bruce

Proof? Read this interview with Jeff Berlin: http://www.innerviews.org/inner/berlin.html

"Not since Jack Bruce was I starry-eyed over another bass player." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Appledelphy (talk • contribs) 19:25, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Is this a copyright violation or just a mirror image from Wikipedia?

In looking for sources for Jack Bruce, I found the following website, and it is nearly word for word the same as in this online publication about him. I'm placing it in both this talk page and the one for Cream. Dangit, I worked hard to find all the photos of him.. and I really do believe this one is a copy/paste thing at some point.

• Lulu Rock History You must scroll down 2/3 of the way down on that page and look for the section on Jack Bruce. --Leahtwosaints (talk) 03:47, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Answered on talk:Cream (band) Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 21:33, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 October 2014

Dscography Title is a Typo ... Respect

80.42.68.15 (talk) 15:58, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

 Done, thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:03, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Death hoax

Yeah the article is protected because of some editor:

"(cur | prev) 14:58, 25 October 2014‎ Discospinster (talk | contribs)‎ m . . (34,639 bytes) (0)‎ . . (Protected Jack Bruce: Persistent vandalism -- death hoax ([Edit=Allow only autoconfirmed users] (expires 14:58, 28 October 2014 (UTC))))"

LOL "death hoax". What a moron? Never even bothered to check, just slapped a ban! You wonder if half of them can read!!? 81.132.173.43 (talk) 16:49, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, there was a death hoax on 23 October, denied by artist representatives on 24 October. MediaMass probably instigated the hoax and then wrote about it; they do this a lot for celebrities. A really contemptible effort, if you ask me. MediaMass is so horrible that Wikipedia has blacklisted their URL, which is why you will have to assemble this web link yourself by deleting the b between media and mass: http://en.mediabmass.net/people/jack-bruce/deathhoax.html Binksternet (talk) 18:12, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

It would seem that the time has come to unprotect this page. http://www.jackbruce.com/2008/default.htm No offense, but I'm not going to beg permission to make a valid edit because of a previous editor. --Geneb1955^Talk 05:52, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Unclear phrasing

"He joined John Mayall and his John Mayall & the Bluesbreakers group, which featured guitarist Eric Clapton. Although his stay was brief; the Universal Deluxe double album Bluesbreakers with Eric Clapton contains all the known tracks featuring Bruce."

Surely either a) the first sentence should be extended and end after "brief" or b) the semicolon should be replaced by a comma. I think the sense of the passage points to the first of those, but it's ambiguous enough for me to call in other opinions, if there are any. Harfarhs (talk) 23:26, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

"Liver disease"

It says he died of "liver disease" which is somewhat generic. What sort of liver disease? Cirrhosis of the liver? Was it from alcohol???Betathetapi545 (talk) 06:40, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

As the article says, he had previously been diagnosed with liver cancer and had rejected a transplant. Perhaps you can find a reliable source that gives alcohol as one of the contributory causes??? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:35, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Bruce himself said, in December 2011, "In 2003 I was diagnosed with liver cancer as a result of my former drug abuse and I had a transplant."[1] Martinevans123 (talk) 12:42, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Cream

The first sentence of this article includes this phrase: "known as a founder member of the British psychedelic rock power trio Cream...."

There are several things wrong with this. In the first place, the members of Cream never changed; they were always Bruce, Clapton, and Baker. Thus it is virtually nonsensical to call any of them a "founder". They were all members for the entire duration of the group, and no additional members were ever added. In the second place, whether they were psychedelic is POV and seems, in any case, to exaggerate the significance of maybe a handful of lyrics and possibly one album cover. I also find the find the term "power trio" obnoxious and essentially meaningless. I think "British rock trio" should suffice, and if anyone wants to know about the group, they can click on the name. TheScotch (talk) 10:56, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

"Drug habit"

Re: "By 1979, Bruce's drug habit had reached such a level that he had lost most of his money."

If you're going to bother to mention a "drug habit", you should say what drug or drugs--otherwise don't mention it. Furthermore, "habit" in this sense is slang. If you mean addiction, say addiction. If Bruce wasn't truly addicted or you don't know whether he was addicted, then say merely use. I'd make it more specific myself, but I don't know anything about Bruce's putative drug use. If someone else doesn't eventually make it more specific, however, I may simply delete it (or someone else can). TheScotch (talk) 11:20, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

"He said:

“The 70s were a particularly bad time in Glasgow for heroin, it was a tragedy then, too.

“But you can see how a generation has been destroyed by drugs and it’s such a huge problem. I’d love to do something about it – anything at all.

“But it’s hard for me to talk about it. I’m nearly 70 and I survived all that and came out the other end.

“I’m lucky and, because of that, it’s hard for me to say much to some young guy hooked on heroin. But it really is terrible.

“The only way to stop using is to actually just stop. Only you can do it. You can go to a thousand clinics, but you have to want to do it.

“I went to the clinics, I wasn’t proud, but I’m proof it can be done.” [2] Martinevans123 (talk) 12:45, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Material removed

These three paras were removed with the edit summary "Take a look at the difference between versions and you'll figure it out.":

"On 4 June 2011, Bruce played a special concert at the Royal Festival Hall in London, which is celebrating its 60th anniversary. The evening celebrated the 50th anniversary of the blues in Great Britain, and Bruce played with his Big Blues Band and special guest Joe Bonamassa.

"Festival appearances with his Big Blues Band continued throughout the UK and Europe during 2011. At the Cornbury Festival, Great Tew Park, Oxfordshire on 3 July where Bruce appeared as a special guest of the Stax label tribute band, The Staxs. The festival was recorded by Abbey Road Studios.

"Bruce started 2012 playing the Gerry Rafferty tribute concert in Glasgow, followed by a date with the traditional Celtic band Lau. BBC Scotland recorded a one hour special on Bruce, which also included a performance with Lau. The completed documentary Jack Bruce – The Man behind the Bass was transmitted in February 2012 on BBC Scotland. It featured new interviews, with Bruce, Clapton, Baker and Brown, as well as the concert footage featuring new versions of six career spanning songs, "We're Going Wrong", "Sunshine of Your Love", "Weird of Hermiston", "Theme for an Imaginary Western", "Keep it Down" and "Child Song"."

The editor has suggested that were poorly written, were copyvio or made the article unbalanced. But I'm not sure which applies. I'd suggest they might be restored, in a better form, possibly with good sources? What do other editors think. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:40, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Note: para three was partially kept. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:16, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Audio clips

Audio clips are sadly absent from the article. Any suggestions? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:14, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Mahavishnu Orchestra * 1973 - Birds of Fire ("One Word" track only, uncredited)

I've removed this as it's unsourced here (in fact the entire Discography section is unsourced?), and not mentioned anywhere at the Birds of Fire article. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:08, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Instruments played

Cello, harmonica and piano keep being deleted as instruments. It is very well documented that Jack Bruce played these instruments fluently. For example he played harmonica for The Graham Bond Organisation as well as Traintime for Cream which was performed at The Royal Albert Hall and Madison Square Gardens as well as released on the album Fresh Cream (1966) which are all referenced in the article. Cello was Jack’s first instrument which he studied classically at The Royal Academy in Scotland. This is also referenced in the wiki article: “He began playing jazz bass in his teens and won a scholarship to study cello and musical composition at the Royal Scottish Academy of Music and Drama while playing in Jim McHarg's Scotsville Jazzband to support himself.” Jack performed cello on Cream albums as well as solo albums. Jack Bruce is also documented playing organ on the documentary “Rope Ladder To The Moon”. Please stop deleting these additions. Thank you. OliviaRosen85 (talk) 14:59, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

User:OliviaRosen85, if it is indeed "very well documented that Jack Bruce played these instruments fluently", it shouldn't be difficult for you to add this to the article with sources that to support these claims. Also please note that this parameter in the infobox is meant to include only main instruments. Please stop making these additions, until they are supported in the main body of the article. Thank you. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:07, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

as already stated they are already quoted in the article. Why is this an issue? OliviaRosen85 (talk) 15:13, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

The sources may be quoted, but does the article text say "he played drums on...", "he played cello for.." etc., etc.? It's an "issue" because the infobox is not supposed to contain material that is not supported by the text. And you are claiming that piano, cello and harmonica were all "main" instruments for Bruce? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:31, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @OliviaRosen85: It's not an article issue, it's an issue for the infobox, the guideline for the infobox musical artist states Secondary instruments are not listed in the infobox, they're meant to be brought up in the article body - FlightTime (open channel) 15:32, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

The article doesn't say anywhere that Bruce played harmonica? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:41, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

We could remove the instruments parameter altogether. - FlightTime (open channel) 16:56, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Who's the mysterious anon IP editor who quickly restored them? Martinevans123 (talk) 17:02, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Well, I have an idea, but i'm no a checkuser :P - FlightTime (open channel) 17:13, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

The article links to several albums that Jack Bruce performed harmonica and cello on and when you click on those links the instruments played are listed. It seems redundant to have to list duplicated information already linked and cited. These instruments were very important instruments in Jack Bruce’s repertoire. He has an entire album just playing piano called “Monk Jack” as well as playing piano as part of his live shows in most of his concert up until the year of his death. Harmonica was also a very important instrument for Jack as Traintime is an iconic song and also listed on platinum selling album linked in the article. Jack performed it frequently as well as other songs and there is a Hohner harp being made to honour his legacy. Cello was the instrument he got his scholarship for and is also already cited in the article and again the article links to several albums citing cello performed by Jack. I am not adding drums although Jack did add these to several recordings they were not a main instrument for him. If you wish to have duplicated information included this is possible however it seems unnecessary. OliviaRosen85 (talk) 17:00, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

We don't rely on separate articles, linked by internal links, to support claims made in the infobox. But are you still claiming that piano, cello and harmonica were all "main" instruments for Bruce? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:05, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, yes I am claiming that they were most certainly main instruments for Jack Bruce for the duration of his 50+ year career from the beginning until the end. Secondary instruments would be organ, drums, mellotron, French horn. OliviaRosen85 (talk) 17:20, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Then you need to make the case by adding the relevant (sourced) material to the article. But I'd be very surprised if most editors here would agree with you. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:42, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

I am happy to do this as the evidence is readily available and cited in hundreds of published articles and many documented music industry records. I am hesitant however as I anticipate my work will be deleted without good reason. OliviaRosen85 (talk) 17:49, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

The article says he's most famous for Bass and Vocals, everything else is secondary. - FlightTime (open channel) 17:43, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Fame does not indicate whether an instrument is primary or secondary. Jack primarily composed most of his most famous compositions on piano for example and then later transferred them to bass guitar. Prince is most famous for guitar and vocals but has all his other main instruments listed on wiki. It’s important this article is historically accurate. Guitar has been listed for Bruce for a long time but piano, cello and harmonica are equally as important to acknowledge. OliviaRosen85 (talk) 17:47, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Most people think of him as a bass player. By all means "acknowledge" his other instruments by adding material to the main body text. This won't on its own, however, get those other instruments "promoted" into the infobox, unless you have sources that support your viewpoint. Did you know Yehudi Menuhin was really good on the spoons? Martinevans123 (talk) 17:52, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Fame is critically important here. The instructions at Template:Infobox_musical_artist tell us "Instruments listed in the infobox should be limited to only those that the artist is primarily known for using. The instruments infobox parameter is not intended as a WP:COATRACK for every instrument the subject has ever used." We should list bass and voice in the infobox because these are the primary and most well-known instruments. Other instruments may be described in prose in the article body. Binksternet (talk) 17:56, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

@OliviaRosen85:, Then please quit wasting our time and provide a couple reliable sources to support your claims. - FlightTime (open channel) 17:57, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

I think there may be a similar issue at Aruba Red. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:17, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Fixed. - FlightTime (open channel) 18:55, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

I added a 'Secondary instruments' section to the article to capture all of the above concerns. Along with I included:

!-- Please only add instruments that are mentioned in, & cited to, reliable sources. -->

!-- DO NOT add them to the InfoBox above as it is NOT for Secondary instruments -->

!-- Please add references rather than deleting below items. Be a good Wiki Gnome! -->

Two instruments mentioned above were added with citation needed tags as a quick search didn't yield much credible. FullScale4Me (talk) 22:03, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

The link to the YouTube for "Theme for an Imaginary Western" seems to be a 404 error. And note that discogs.com, used for the cello claim, is not regarded as WP:RS. Four of the instruments are unsourced. So not sure the new section will survive very long unless more sources can be added. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:16, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

404 Fixed. FullScale4Me (talk) 07:05, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Also, I'm not sure a separate section is justified. This might be better presented in running prose. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:13, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

In fact I'm not sure I have seen this coverage in any other article for a rock musician. The playing of minor instruments (of which may musicians are capable) is generally covered only in the articles for their respective albums. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:02, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

I was attempting to cause a peace with those making an edit war in the recent past that had escalated into a short-term protection lock.

I agree that perhaps a section may have been overthinking the task. My fear is in minimizing the reaction to be more a perfect wikilike folk may result in the edit war(s) resuming. The volume of comment above ours just now seems to indicate that many have not forgotten a need for stating the instruments.

As a long time (non-professional) musician who is only proficient on two, I see his proficiency on many (compared to me) as having a notable difference between us. I thinned out the entries needing a citation to address your previous advice. Sage notation it was, thank you for that. FullScale4Me (talk) 17:41, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

I think we can agree it's better where it is than in the infobox. Cello shouldn't be surprise, as that's what he originally trained on at Royal Scottish Academy of Music and Drama. But unusual for a rock musician. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:45, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps sending it to a sub-section level, say within the Discography section might give it the bold header like a section? Either before or after Collaborations bold title?

Not a wiki 'section' would address the wiki purism that other editors, yet to join this Talk section discussion may express? FullScale4Me (talk) 17:53, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

I've demoted it where it is for now and tweaked the wording slightly. Let's see how we get on with that? Martinevans123 (talk) 18:01, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Agree 110% with your edit. Thanks for the help in keeping this memory of Jacks professional life more complete. FullScale4Me (talk) 18:07, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Death

Is it known what caused his liver disease? Alcoholism? thanks SurgeArrest (talk) 18:07, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

this track from a jack arel compilation....

.... appears to be an instrumental version of "rope ladder..."; does anybody have any idea how this came about? it's attributed, compositionally, to arel & dutour.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcwaRUFqJ4k

duncanrmi (talk) 09:26, 12 July 2024 (UTC)