Talk:Israel–Hamas war/Archive 6

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Wording issue - Sentence

Hello,

This is just a small suggestion regarding as of now a possible error in the wording (key word words, thats all).

Past the previous period, the sentence " 200 civilians were slaughtered in the Kfar Aza kibbutz, and according to some Israeli sources at least 40 babies, some of whom were beheaded."

The word "Beheaded" is red, indicating that "no article has been made". The proper wikipedia article is known as "Decapitation"

Again, this is just an objective suggestion regarding a possible error in wording.

Note I do not wish to imply anything else from this comment. It is only based on and only of grammatical issues: NOTHING ELSE. 2601:601:A400:D4A0:C96B:23D9:63D4:60D1 (talk) 06:04, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done The author tried to do just that but misspelled Decapitation. The Squirrel Conspiracy (talk) 06:10, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Good work there. I give my thanks for the correction.

- "2601-601" 2601:601:A400:D4A0:C96B:23D9:63D4:60D1 (talk) 07:15, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Hamas-Israel truce?

@KiharaNoukan: you added:

Gaza and Israel had recently negotiated a truce, mediated by Qatar, Egypt, and the UN on September 29.

But I don't see anything about a 29 September truce in the source given. Are there any sources that say this?VR _talk 15:34, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

This is a very fair point. For now I've tagged that sentence with , but I would be in favour of removing it entirely. After a brief look I cannot find any sources that say it, and frankly this seems like the kind of thing I think we would have heard about. AntiDionysius (talk) 15:40, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

I tweaked the wording with a different source, truce is too strong a word, idk how important it is/was in the overall scheme of things. Selfstudier (talk) 15:53, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Ah, that clarifies things, thank you. AntiDionysius (talk) 15:55, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, that makes more sense.VR _talk 16:12, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

@Vice regent Yes, it's in the Guardian Article I cited.

From Bethan McKernan, pg 14. "Hamas officials always say that they will respond to Israel “at a time and place of our choosing”. But the timing of this unprecedented aerial and ground attack has caught both Israelis and Palestinians completely by surprise. The two sides had just negotiated a truce, mediated by Qatar, Egypt and the UN, after three weeks of violence and unrest at the separation fence."

Beth cites another Guardian article stating "An uneasy calm has returned to the strip, and border crossings for workers to enter Israel reopened on 29 September after mediation efforts by the UN, Egypt and Qatar." I will reword to re-add egypt + UN and link to the "3 weeks of violence." I don't have issue with the word "mediation" since that term is also used. KiharaNoukan (talk) 18:11, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

References

You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on this article (except in limited circumstances)

Does this apply to our own edits or just those of others? Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 17:17, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Only others.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:22, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Emphasizing the severity of the situation in Israel

This article doesn't emphasize the uniqueness of this situation in Israel. Can we add the following sentence to the third paragraph in the article?

From

Hostilities were initiated in the early morning with a rocket barrage of at least 3,000 missiles against Israel and vehicle-transported incursions into its territory. Palestinian militants also broke through the Gaza–Israel barrier and forced their way through Gaza border crossings, entering and attacking nearby Israeli communities and military installations, killing at least 1,000 Israelis in the process according to Israel. Numerous cases of violence against Israeli civilians have occurred since the beginning of the conflict, including a massacre at a music festival that killed at least 260. Israeli soldiers and civilians, including children, had been taken hostage by Palestinian militants to the Gaza Strip.

to:

Hostilities were initiated in the early morning with a rocket barrage of at least 3,000 missiles against Israel and vehicle-transported incursions into its territory. Palestinian militants also broke through the Gaza–Israel barrier and forced their way through Gaza border crossings, entering and attacking nearby Israeli communities and military installations, killing at least 1,000 Israelis in the process according to Israel. Numerous cases of violence against Israeli civilians have occurred since the beginning of the conflict, including a massacre at a music festival that killed at least 260. Israeli soldiers and civilians, including children, had been taken hostage by Palestinian militants to the Gaza Strip. This is Israel's deadliest conflict in terms of civilian deaths since its War of Independence in 1948.

--199.203.101.124 (talk) 18:52, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

  Not done - A source is needed and also on the Israeli_casualties_of_war#Regular_conflicts. The 1948 war says 2,400 civilians died in that war. Doing the math, Per Palestine: 925 killed and Per Israel: 1,200+ killed, it equals 2,125. Doing math is enough, a WP:RS claiming it is the deadliest in terms of civilians' deaths since the 1948 War of Independence is needed. Thank you for the suggestion by the way. Cwater1 (talk) 03:01, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Syria

Just as a heads up, I have placed Syria in the infobox after it exchanged artillery fire with Israel a few hours ago.[1] Ecrusized (talk) 20:22, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

This shows that the Syrian government is participating, but this is not official yet. There are Palestinian groups operating from Syria. Dl.thinker (talk) 20:25, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

I am not aware of any Palestinian groups presence in Southern Syria but it could indeed be pro-Iran militia's like Liwa Fatemiyoun or Hezbollah. Nevertheless Syrian government is complicit with these groups and it's unlikely that they are acting without it's approval. In Lebanon on the other hand, Hezbollah acts independently from the Lebanese government, often entering into conflict with it. Ecrusized (talk) 20:27, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

An artillery fire across the border is an act of war. But we do not really know who that was. Was it Syrian government or a group of rebels? Without knowing this we can not indicate "Syria" in the infobox. My very best wishes (talk) 20:33, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

It does indeed appear to be Palestinian groups cooperating with Hezbollah according to SOHR. [2] I will remove Syria for the time being. Ecrusized (talk) 20:37, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Subtitling Biden's speech

Hi, I wrote subtitles for Biden's speech, but I'd like it if you could double-check some parts. What's between the brackets?

1. [3:04] Mr. President, can you tell us what [name] asked you
2. [0:37] I get up this morning [...] Hamas terrorists Thank you!

FunLater (talk) 19:33, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Bracketed answers are in bold

[3.04] Mr. President, can you tell what Bibi asked you?

[0:37] I get up this morning and started this at 7:30, 8:00, my calls, Hamas terrorists...

Full video transcript is here for your reference: https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/biden-delivers-remarks-israel-attacks-191712456.html Seven Train (talk) 23:27, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Added the subtitles. Thank you. FunLater (talk) 23:58, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Inaccurate Comment with citation 161.

Under 10th October, comment says "Reporters brought to the scene saw no dead babies". [161]. Source 161, The Telegraph article makes no such claim at any point. It does state "dozens of dead civilians were found" and that "Hamas killed babies and children in a massacre discovered by Israeli soldiers".

This comment should probably be removed as the citation does not show this to be true. If another source can be provided, then it needs to be updated. Tankcomdestroyer (talk) 22:51, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

@Tankcomdestroyer Unless I'm missing something, citation 161 doesn't mention dead babies because the statement it is backing up also does not mention dead babies. Kline • talk to me! • contribs 22:54, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Under Timeline, Israeli Response, 10 October. Second sentence: "Reporters brought to the scene saw no dead babies.^[161]." The source does not mention or infer or imply that reporters did or did not see dead babies. Tankcomdestroyer (talk) 22:57, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Ah the citation numbers have all shifted. Its 147 now? Heres the link anyway: citation in question Tankcomdestroyer (talk) 23:01, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 October 2023 (4)

Change the name of this article from "2023 Israel-Hamas war" to "The October War" Woofrr (talk) 23:27, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

That's something that ought to be avoided, because a) that would be a term invented by Wikipedia (which we try avoiding), and b) there have been several wars that have started in October (counting the Yom Kippur War!), so it would not be specific. Bremps... 00:12, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Bremps is correct, we only use names used by reliable sources. Right now, they're calling it the Israel–Hamas war. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 01:01, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Background- pov

in the lead paragraph, descrining the background against which the Hamas attack was launched it leaves out the murders of Israeli people such as 2023 Huwara shooting only refering to the settler violence in reaction, this violates WP:POV. "The crisis represented a tipping point in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, which followed a violent year that saw increased expansion of Israeli settlements and Israeli settler violence against Palestinian civilians, clashes in Jenin and at Al-Aqsa mosque, which killed almost 250 Palestinians and 32 Israelis;..." 2601:14D:5081:72C0:1578:99D9:C358:9B7E (talk) 23:42, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

should say- The crisis represented a tipping point in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, which followed a violent year that saw the murder of Israeli civilians, attacks against security personel, and reprisals including the increased expansion of Israeli settlements and Israeli settler violence against Palestinian civilians; as well as clashes in Jenin and at Al-Aqsa mosque, which killed almost 250 Palestinians and 32 Israelis; 2601:14D:5081:72C0:1578:99D9:C358:9B7E (talk) 00:10, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 2601:14D:5081:72C0:1578:99D9:C358:9B7E (talk) 00:35, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: Such a change should be backed up by plenty of reliable sources. Every source cited is biased in some way, but you have to show how the language used is disproportionately leaning towards one side; that's what WP:POV means. Do you have a source that states there was an increase in murders of Israeli civilians in the past year and that it was a catalyst for the Israelis to act? The spirit of the original sentence is to state why Hamas attacked, not why Israel responded (which of course, is because they were attacked by Hamas). Yue🌙 05:18, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

condemn of labeling word "militant" for palestine

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

This discussion is going nowhere constructive. Edward-Woodrow • talk 19:59, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

---

I was disspointed for who labeling palestinian as "militant" in this article as lokking wikipedia have siding to pro israeli page. please remove this word and replace to another word to become fair. Insankerdilmahubersuara1993 (talk) 04:12, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

We are not talking about a regular Palestinian army, are we? Borgenland (talk) 04:36, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

The majority of international RS are using "militant", NYT, WAPO, Reuters. Selfstudier (talk) 10:13, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

the only acceptable term in this instance is militant. Azz205 (talk) 18:46, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

this is correct, the only correct work is terrorists. Mark28482 (talk) 18:15, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Israel was entirely founded on the back of terrorism and ethnic cleansing, Mark. Don't throw stones when you live in a glass house with very thin walls. 2607:FEA8:A4E1:BC00:4807:859:2490:54CD (talk) 01:59, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

this is not true at all, and regardless, what does that have to do with the kids murdered today? (attack removed) Mark28482 (talk) 05:03, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Even if this were true, our responsibility is to label them as RS label them. The term most RS are using, as mentioned above, is militant. There is no realistic reason to diverge from this. Arakui (talk) 10:26, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

"Terrorism" is an extremely loaded label and should be avoided where it can be (see [3]). It has been contentious for a long, long time among experts. See here[4], here[5], and here[6] for example. None of that is to make a value judgement on the actions of Palestinian militants in this, or any, conflict. It is just such labels don't provide any utility or add anything to the discussion except to bog it down. Yr Enw (talk) 11:03, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

i disagree, the actions under taken that day are by definition terrorist acts. there is no argument about it, only from terrorist apologists and sympathizers. are you one of them? Mark28482 (talk) 18:41, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

My views, as are yours, are irrelevant to how we frame articles. You can disagree all you like but we don't edit Wikipedia on the basis of our personal feelings. You can disagree, but academic scholarship takes precedent over your (or my) opinion. Yr Enw (talk) 18:47, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

When the purpose of an act is to make people fearful, to terrorize, to call it anything else is an example of making evil banal.

While militancy may have motivated their actions as actors they are terrorists, or if you prefer militant terrorists. But terrorists nonetheless. The purpose of these acts is not militancy but to terrorize. It is not to accomplish Hamas’ stated purpose, the death of all Jews, and the end of the State of Israel. The purpose of these acts was only to terrorize, to provoke Israel, and then use the death of their own people that they would hide behind as propaganda.

The climate protesters who superglued themselves at the US Open were militants but not terrorists. Their act might have enraged many because it delayed the tennis but no one was fearful, in terror, as a result.

Calling them militants minimizes their acts of terror to a more acceptable level. This is whitewashing horror at its worst and continues a banality of evil.

The proper word for these individuals is terrorist and not militant. Ideal18 (talk) 10:19, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

how you say militans from Palestinians when they the group of terrorist come from Iraq?!?!?! Wtf you talking about you one of them ?! 2A02:6680:110D:B518:84BF:9988:6A6A:F596 (talk) 09:49, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Sorrt group of terror come frome iran . Y you say Palestinians!?

Thry come from iran itan sand this terror group to murder ! To do terror its not militans!! Stop say wrong bulshit !! 2A02:6680:110D:B518:84BF:9988:6A6A:F596 (talk) 09:51, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

• Note: The following sentence, back by two WP:RS, is added to the article and timeline article appropriately.

In the afternoon of October 10, President of the United States Joe Biden announced that "Hamas has set a goal of killing Jews".

I think it's fairly clear that the use of "militant" is safe to use, as tons of WP:RS use it as well. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 18:50, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

The BBC is using "militant" and resisting the government's pressure to use "terrorist". Interesting as it's Director General is a Tory and until this year its Chair. Doug Weller talk 10:13, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

ofcourse bbc is resisting.its not new. only terrorist for them is indian prime minister and hindu groups who resist or respond to islamic fundamentalism/terrorism. groups like hamas etc are freedom fighters who are fighting for a just cause no mater their ways of fighting. in this case, evryone else is responsible for hamas behaviour but hamas.so much opression by everyone on muslims they had to act this way.had to kill in cold blood,had to behead,had to rape etc. everything is justified. Observer1989 (talk) 15:33, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

YAN unsourced opinion. Selfstudier (talk) 18:25, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

YAN unsourced comment Observer1989 (talk) 18:28, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 October 2023 (5) // Please add a sentence that was agreed to be added in a discussion.

contribs)

Please change: "On 7 October 2023, Palestinian militant groups[e] led by Hamas launched a large-scale invasion and offensive against Israel from the Gaza Strip, breaking through the Gaza–Israel barrier and forcing entry via the Gaza border crossings, into nearby settlements in Israel and military installations. Hamas called it Operation al-Aqsa Storm. It is the first direct conflict within Israel's boundaries since the 1948 Arab–Israeli War.[31][32] Hostilities were initiated in the early morning with a rocket barrage against Israel and vehicle-transported incursions into Israeli territory, with several attacks on surrounding Israeli civilian communities and Israeli military bases. Some observers have referred to these events as the beginning of a third Palestinian intifada.[f] For the first time since the 1973 Yom Kippur War, Israel formally declared war.[34] An Israeli operation launched in response has been called Iron Swords by the IDF.[35]"

To: (Change is bolded)

"On 7 October 2023, Palestinian militant groups[e] led by Hamas launched a large-scale invasion and offensive against Israel from the Gaza Strip, breaking through the Gaza–Israel barrier and forcing entry via the Gaza border crossings, into nearby settlements in Israel and military installations. The conflict is considered to be the deadliest non-state terrorist attack in Israeli history, and one of the deadliest terrorist events worldwide.[Link][Link2] Hamas called it Operation al-Aqsa Storm. It is the first direct conflict within Israel's boundaries since the 1948 Arab–Israeli War.[31][32] Hostilities were initiated in the early morning with a rocket barrage against Israel and vehicle-transported incursions into Israeli territory, with several attacks on surrounding Israeli civilian communities and Israeli military bases. Some observers have referred to these events as the beginning of a third Palestinian intifada.[f] For the first time since the 1973 Yom Kippur War, Israel formally declared war.[34] An Israeli operation launched in response has been called Iron Swords by the IDF.[35]"

This is basically adding back an edit from 11:21, 9 October 2023, which has been griefed. Said change was agreed to in the discussion: "Deadliest terrorist attack in Israeli history?" Thank you in advance! רם אבני (talk) 17:22, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Cleveland Jewish News and World Jewish News doesn't strike me as reflecting a balance of reliable independent sources, tbh. Selfstudier (talk) 17:47, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Wall street journal

CNBC

BBC

Politico

The Free Press

Here are more. When adding the change, please refrence these too, and filter what you deem reliable or not. Yet this amount proves major newspapers regard this terror attack as "Israel's 9/11" due to it's enormous amount of murdered, kidnapped, and videos full of pride of Hamas in killing, which are spread across social media. רם אבני (talk) 17:58, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

WSJ is an opinion article, I checked the next two and couldn't find anything to support the proposed edit so I gave up. Please show sourcing that contains the text you are proposing. Thank you. Selfstudier (talk) 18:02, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Sorry for adding an opinion article, I didn't notice. Excuse me for that.

Here is a list by the 'German online platfrom specialized in data gathering and visualization' about the deadliest terror attacks worldwide.

When we add this terror attack to this list, it becomes the 5th. The dead count is still unknown, but Israel is reporting 800+ dead, and since the terror attack is still going on, more may sadly be added.

It's 5th. There for it is "one of the deadliest terrorist events worldwide." as said in my edit request.

About the "deadliest non-state terrorist attack in Israeli history", the Re'im massace (part of this terror attack) is already listed as first in death toll, in the Wikipedia article "List of massacres in Israel".

If this doesn't suffice, please tell me and I'll go look in more resources. Thank you for your time. רם אבני (talk) 18:13, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Well, it is not as yet in statista and putting it in "by hand" would be OR. Also WP is not a source. You might have better luck if you search for sourcing without the terrorism label. Selfstudier (talk) 18:25, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

@Selfstudier I ask for others to come forth, and discuss the matter with us. רם אבני (talk) 18:43, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

@רם אבני: I don't understand why there is so much pushback over this. In the latest media figures, they are saying at least 1,200 deaths and I'm sure that will sadly continue to rise. Based on the latest information, assuming this does in fact constitute a true "terror attack", wouldn't that constitute this as the 2nd deadliest terror attack in world history after 9/11? The Camp Speicher massacre in 2014 killed at least 1,095, which would rank it 3rd deadliest. The numbers speak for themselves, what am I missing here? Undescribed (talk) 21:56, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Independent reliable sources that support the proposed text, those don't appear to be forthcoming atm. Selfstudier (talk) 10:07, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

@Selfstudier

I too don't understand your pushback.

We already established that it is one of the deadliest terror attacks, by comparing it's deathtoll to the deadliest terror attacks that happend in 1970-2020.

and here are independent reliable sources that support the proposed text:

CNBC

BBC

The Free Press

If we do a vote, this is 2 yay to add, and 1 nay.

This amount of sources satisfies the sentence.

And yet, I would agree to move said sentence to a split article from this one, regarding the terror attack. רם אבני (talk) 16:23, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Misinformation section has bias

The argument used behind the $6 billion dollar claim is fungibility. If Iran knows it is getting money for humanitarian purposes, it can repurpose existeing funds to back Hamas. Without adding this tidbit, the section is exposed to bias. AtypicalPhantom (talk) 23:40, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

We don't do our own analysis in articles. Find a reliable source that says this, and it may merit inclusion. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 23:46, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Along those lines, the section feels more like a WP:COATRACK than anything else—specific instances of bad info being given relatively WP:UNDUE weight based on sparse sourcing does not improve the article. As such, I've removed the content, and I would object to its restoration in the form that it was. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 04:18, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Looks like a spin-off Misinformation in the October 2023 Gaza–Israel conflict needs to be created. Abductive (reasoning) 20:13, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

I'd say the opposite. We don't really need these minor details on Wikipedia at all. It's only worth mentioning if it's widely covered and analyzed by reliable sources. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 01:39, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

So you'd rather keep the "minor details" such as cluttering up the main article? I guess that's good, as more people will read about them there. Abductive (reasoning) 07:52, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

New Numbers of Hamas casualties published by Israel

Israel claims that the IDF found more than 1'500 bodies that were Hamas fighters/ "Terrorists".

Please take with a big grain of salt as it was published by the IDF, that had a huge Bias against their enemy, Hamas.

As of time of my writing, Hamas did not respond to the claims. Poles Ragge (talk) 08:02, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Sources:

[ Channel (Nationality/language) : Link ]

SRF ( Swiss/German) : https://www.srf.ch/news/international/angriff-auf-israel-israelische-vergeltungsangriffe-auf-den-gazastreifen

Times of Israel (Israeli/English) : https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-weve-found-1500-bodies-of-hamas-terrorists-in-israel/

Die Welt (German/German : https://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article247911596/Israel-Liveticker-Rund-1500-tote-Hamas-Kaempfer-in-Israel.html

Der Stern (German/German) : https://www.stern.de/news/israelische-armee--leichen-von--rund-1500--hamas-kaempfern-in-israel-entdeckt-33898840.html

[Footnote: All of those reference the IDF] Poles Ragge (talk) 08:09, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

The casualty figures are attributed in the infobox as "per Israel" and "per Palestine". If we include Hamas estimates, then we should also include IDF estimates. Cullen328 (talk) 08:11, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Looks like an article Misinformation in the October 2023 Gaza–Israel conflict will need to be created. Abductive (reasoning) 20:11, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Why no account of the documented rape in War Crimes section?

Sources :

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/israel-music-festival-massacre-eyewitness-account

https://www.ynetnews.com/article/h1jw11zfwt

https://www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/inevitable-despicable-truth-behind-hamas-rampage/news-story/f5b3b46a49cce4054b345c386d93bb29

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/where-are-the-women-2/ Israeli women are fighting for their right to protect their children, protect their bodies, and sustain their lives. Women of the world who claim to care about global humanitarianism are watching terrorists burn Israeli girls alive, rip babies from mother’s hands, shoot children in front of their parents, rape women in the streets, and parade naked female bodies around Gaza — and they somehow can’t muster a word." 2A02:14F:1EE:2038:0:0:9E5E:2A16 (talk) 12:02, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

I've just added this to the Militant incursions into Israel section. Once this is called a war crime, we can add it to that section as well. Alaexis_¿question? 12:09, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

In this quote from an article by Bruce Hoffman, this is called a war crime:

https://www.cfr.org/in-brief/israels-war-hamas-what-know

"However, at least according to what is being reported, Hamas and PIJ fighters have committed and are still committing a vast array of what can only be described as war crimes. The reports of executions, sexual abuse, civilians being pulled from their homes, and other depredations will not go unpunished by Israel." 2A02:14F:1EE:2038:0:0:9E5E:2A16 (talk) 13:36, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Idk whether there is any basis to these allegations, has this been reported in any of the more well known news outlets? Selfstudier (talk) 12:10, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

The Tablet site appears to function as a blog. The same author, a rather extreme self-described Zionist, claims elsewhere on the same site that RFK Jr is a vaccines truth teller (which, needless to say, is disputed). The National Review does not do original reporting of its own and on its Editors podcast today all of them simply took at face value every shocking allegation such as beheaded babies. The news.com.au source is itself merely sourced to the Tablet piece and to a tendentious Twitter account which "repeated unverified claims that some hostages have been raped". The CFR is similar to NR in being a think tank/opinion shop as opposed to a news gatherer and just alludes to Netanyahu's claim of rape. Given that the Israeli Foreign Minister made a debunked claim that Jewish toddlers kidnapped as part of the attack were being put into cages we can't take the claims of Israeli politicians at face value. That leaves Ynet, the online outlet for Yedioth Ahronot, a tabloid. A tabloid is not necessarily an uncitable source but is not a very good one for a sensational claim. The claim is attributed to a woman who doesn't say she witnessed such herself - unlike other events which are told as a first hand witness - but rather that "they raped women even after killing them" as part of a rant about "beasts. Predators. Animals". A beastly massacre appears to be verified but not rapes.--Brian Dell (talk) 04:36, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Israel threatens Egypt to attack any humanitarian aid going to gaza civilians from rafah crossing

Israel threatens Egypt to attack any humanitarian aid going to gaza civilians from rafah crossing: https://twitter.com/aja_egypt/status/1711701305679331699

two Egyptians were reportedly injured by israeli bombardment of rafah crossing: https://www.almanar.com.lb/11024928 Stephan rostie (talk) 13:10, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

[QUESTION] Why are material casualties (tanks, armoured vicicles) not inclouded in the casualtie box?

They were added in the beginning but were removed, why? It's a important information (in my opinion). Without tanks and vehicles listed, it can be misinteprented that israel didn't loose any Armour. Poles Ragge (talk) 13:27, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

The info might not be available yet, but if you find a source you may be able to add it. AitvarasVienas (talk) 15:30, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Info might not be available? There were litteraly multiple vidoes last saturday (begin of the crisis) of a israeli tank burning and some vehicles captured by Hamas fighters/terrorists.

There are plenty of sources in form of videos of these, made BY Hamas terrorists/fighters, published all over the internet.

Also, due to the protection of this article i can't edit anything at the moment. Poles Ragge (talk) 16:06, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Counting individual tanks and other weaponry and equipment from videos and tallying them would probably constitute WP:OR. Bremps... 00:18, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Airport closure

not true. There are literally commercial flights to georgia, europe and arab countries since saturday. In fact the former Just a few hours ago. Anyone can check it on flight radar. Further, El al have not changed plans. 37.252.92.97 (talk) 23:51, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

The article currently says Airports in southern and central Israel were closed to commercial and private use, while Ben Gurion Airport[128] and Ramon Airport remained operational. It's not clear what airports would supposedly be closed; Ben Gurion and Ramon are the only airports in Israel with regularly-scheduled commercial traffic. Walt Yoder (talk) 16:48, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

While a few sources attribute a statement about the closures to Israel Airports Authority, I'm not seeing it. And a (partial) closure of some private airstrips doesn't seem particularly relevant. It might be better to say something like While Ben Gurion Airport and Ramon Airport remained operational, many foreign airlines canceled flights to Israel. [7] [8] Walt Yoder (talk) 17:46, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done Walt Yoder (talk) 18:33, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Hamas using american weapons (which allegedly were sent to ukraine)

After Hamas terrorists infiltrated Israel, butchered its citizens and took hundreds as hostages, videos captured the horror and the celebration in Gaza. What was pointed out by experts was the flashing of American weapons, especially what they said were M14 assault rifles, in the celebratory videos. US Congresswoman has called for an investigation into the source of US-made weapons used by the Palestinian terrorist group Hamas in the ongoing conflict in Israel. Observer1989 (talk) 15:34, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

This narrative includes some extremely loaded words: terrorists, butchered, horror without attributing the use of those terms to particular sources. There is absolutely no way this is going to get incorporated unless you neutralise the language. And, anticipating a potential counter-argument, I am not in any way saying the described actions are acceptable or justified. Yr Enw (talk) 16:10, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

i understand. i just dont know how to whitewash terrorist inhuman acts properly.i prefer calling spade a spade.i am new to wikipedia.maybe ill learn from people here.thanks for the reply Observer1989 (talk) 16:32, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Avoiding a contentious value-laden label that has not garnered consensus is not whitewashing, it's about how we present information in as neutral a manner as possible. Try to keep in mind:

1. On Wiki, we are not the arbiters of what constitutes terrorism, butchery, or horror. We report what reliable sources say, aiming to reflect the general consensus in media and scholarship as best as possible. So, you could say "X says Y is terrorism" (this is already included in the article) but you generally shouldn't interpret the acts as terrorism in your narrative yourself.

2. We have this policy on using such words and the general wiki policy on narrative voice while editing, in case these are helpful to consult.

3. If you disagree with the above, you can discuss a policy here or you can propose an alternative/change here. Yr Enw (talk) 16:44, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

thanks for the info. ill review the policies.you have been helpful. i am only surprised that consensus is not to label this act of hamas as terrorism. i understnad the palestenian viewpoint of fighting against occupation altough its true i am biased here and believe it was a jew land first and babylonians,romans and muslims continously invaded and expelled jews from their historical land.muslims in addition to slowly changing the demography even bulit their own structures on top of their religious structure based on some claims by their prophet. its more like a clan war.i also do not fully agree with how israel treats palestinians tho but the problem here is that these specific acts carried out by hamas cannot be justified by saying they are just fighting because of occupation.these are inhuman acts.you either have to be soulless or a fanatic to do these kind of acts.i wont go into detail on what they have done but a civilized democratic world will always consider it terrorism.only islamic world will consider it justified fight for freedom. but in any case i appreciate you telling me about different policies of wikipedia. i will definitely read and learn from it. Observer1989 (talk) 17:19, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

You're welcome. The issue with the word "terrorism" specifically is probably best discussed elsewhere in those policy forums, but I will just say it has been contentious for a long, long time among experts. See here[9], here[10], and here[11] for example. None of that is to make a value judgement on the actions of Palestinian militants in this, or any, conflict. It is just such labels don't provide any utility or add anything to the discussion except to bog it down. It is perfectly possible to criticise, think immoral, criticise, oppose these actions without needing to use the term "terrorist". Yr Enw (talk) 17:25, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

and it should probably be pointed out consensus against using the label just means it's better avoided because other terminology does the job already Yr Enw (talk) 17:42, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:12, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

We should never include anything Marjorie Taylor Greene says and it's ridiculous to even suggest to do so. EvergreenFir (talk) 16:29, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

The US military stopped acquiring new M14s almost 60 years ago and was replaced by the M16 in 1967 due to performance issues in Vietnam (although it was still standard issue for some units stationed in Europe and used in basic training until 1970) and sent/sold hundreds of thousands of them to other governments in the 1970s. I'd say that it's highly unlikely that any of the M14s seen in these videos we part of any recent military aid program to Ukraine (from what I can gather, only the sniper and marksman versions and small quantities of rifles for ceremonial purposes are still used outside of some law enforcement agencies). Best, GPL93 (talk) 16:44, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

There are an awful lot of M14s circulating in the world, including in use in Israel by the IDF; there are a thousand places these ones could've come from other than Ukraine, and there's no reason to believe Ukraine is an especially likely source other than the assertion of a politician primarily known for conspiracy theories (and with an obvious political interest in discrediting the programme of weapons transfers to Ukraine). Unless something new comes out, we shouldn't include this. AntiDionysius (talk) 16:55, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

i apologise i didnt do a deep dive of the politician in question.i agree that she is known for her conspiracy theories some of which are extremely radeical so her pov is not considered neutral in any way.i also agree we need better sources to include this information.its just the ukranian president's (who himself is a jew) open support to nazis who faught against russia in ww2 and russias old allegations of ukraine today full of neo nazis gives this info of ukraine linked with anti israel/anti jew activities some consideration but unless we get better reliable sources its all consipracy theories. Observer1989 (talk) 17:52, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Ukraine already accused Russia of planting the story. Plus on a personal level I doubt the veracity especially since Hamas is a friend of Iran. Borgenland (talk) 07:28, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

yes ukraine accused russia of planting the story and then their president went on and honored a nazi fully knowing who he was and what he has done so i wont bet on ukraines credibility. in any case thats not the topic here.without proper evidence its just a conspiracy. Observer1989 (talk) 13:14, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

References

Even Israelis have been selling weapons to Palestinians[12], so little can be concluded from them simply having American weapons. FunkMonk (talk) 17:02, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

• No, do not include it please. The entire world is using American weapons. This must be something much bigger than rifles. My very best wishes (talk) 21:24, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 October 2023 (5)

{{subst:trim|1= The map on this page is wrong according to google maps and israel forces speech + the us supports israel and iran supports hamas, this info was on the page at the beginning but now its gone i want to add the supporters and change the map

The issue of Iranian involvement was discussed further up this talk page; it would probably be best to join that discussion if you wish to see it added back. As for the map, could you be more specific about what you think should be changed? --AntiDionysius (talk) 16:26, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Hamas invaded the settlements? Or did they brutally murder and burn and strangle seven hundred people? What is this insanity?

I read the entry carefully. It's very embarrassing. In the entire first section it is not even accidentally mentioned that they murdered people in Israel. It doesn't say they shot babies. It is not written that they made a massacre. It is not written that girls were raped before they were murdered. All concepts are written in ambiguity: "invaded Israel", "breached the border", "there were attacks", "entered the settlements". Is this the English Wikipedia?! המבין (talk) 11:18, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

If you want to make an edit request, please do so. Please supply reliable sources in support of any request. Thank you. Selfstudier (talk) 11:21, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

sources? we don't accept original research as a source here Abo Yemen✉ 11:28, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Why no mention of how the babies' heads were CUT OFF by Hamas murderers?

In the news reports from I24NEWS, the reporter states how babies heads were cut off by sick Hamas terrorists.

https://twitter.com/i24NEWS_EN/status/1711718195025821976

BEYOND HORRIFIC: 40 Babies & Children Murdered, BEHEADED In Kfar Aza - YWN 204.128.182.16 (talk) 16:18, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

these sources are clearly biased and i've seen the video on twitter and there are no chopped-off heads shown Abo Yemen✉ 17:27, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

They are not. It has been confirmed by CNN reporter Nic Robertson:

https://www.mediaite.com/news/cnn-reporter-confirms-gruesome-decapitations-at-kibbutz-attacked-by-hamas-shot-executed-heads-cut/

Besides, Al Jazeera seems to have been deemed a perfectly legitimate source throughout this article, despite its known bias. Sources with an opposing bias should be given equal treatment.

Also, why is it that under "10 October" (and in several other places throughout the article) the word "claim" Is used twice in reference to Israeli entities, whereas under "casualties/Palestinian" and the like it's "reported"? I'm all for objective language, but "claims" sound distinctly less reliable than "reports". 108.14.7.151 (talk) 10:01, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

No. "Invaded" and "attacked" are not terms of ambiguity. The (implied) changes wanted by the IP editor should not be made. Walt Yoder (talk) 17:09, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Are you by any chance trying to push a particular WP:POV? Edward-Woodrow • talk 21:12, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

The ONLY source for the "beheaded babies" claim is a pro-genocide member of a radical settler movement, David Ben Zion. Several international journalists and news agencies already debunked the allegations.

Anadolu contacted the Israeli military over the phone to ask about the claims, with their spokesperson unit saying: "We have seen the news, but we do not have any details or confirmation about that". A French reporter based in Jerusalem, Samuel Forey, said on X that he was in the Kfar Aza settlement, located less than 2 kilometers (1.2 miles) from northeastern Gaza, on Tuesday but no one had mentioned the alleged decapitations. Aren Ziv, an Israeli photojournalist, likewise said he saw no evidence of beheaded infants, while neither the Israeli army nor spokesperson also did not mention any such incidents. Even the IDF said it had nothing to back up these claims.

See:

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/despite-refutations-from-israeli-military-headlines-that-hamas-beheaded-babies-persist/3016167

https://www.businessinsider.com/idf-says-wont-back-up-beheaded-babies-disrespectful-2023-10 Hookko27 (talk) 00:47, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

If the New York Times or Washington Post or BBC or other reliable source reports mass rapes or beheaded babies the material will be added. It cannot be added just because you have found such allegations somewhere on the Internet. Brian Dell (talk) 04:12, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Displacement figures

Maybe I'm missing something, but does it make sense that the infobox says the figures are "per Palestine", and then in that list there's "200,000 displaced", which is very clearly attributed to the UN in the source? There is no indication in the source that the UN is merely repeating a figure told to them by Palestine. Shouldn't this figure be in a separate list? Why have a list of Palestinian claims that isn't Palestinian claims? Unknown Temptation (talk) 15:33, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

This has now been fixed. Riposte97 (talk) 02:16, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Decapitation of babies in Kfar Aza

A French journalist has revealed the existence of this (https://twitter.com/margothaddad/status/1711756690574479651). When it emerges on a better source than Twitter, it'll need adding to the article under the Palestinian war crimes section. I haven't found another source yet so putting this here in case anyone else finds one. Chessrat ^{(talk, contributions)} 17:21, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Already being discussed above. Section here Selfstudier (talk) 17:35, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/kfar-aza-israel-village-hamas-attack-b2427446.html but

"‘When Hamas came they decapitated women and children’ an Israeli major in the village a few kiolmetres from Gaza, tells Bel Trew. The bodies are hidden so it’s impossible to verify, but it is clear much blood has been shed"

We can't add to war crimes unless a source mentions war crimes. Selfstudier (talk) 18:13, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

https://www.mediaite.com/news/cnn-reporter-confirms-gruesome-decapitations-at-kibbutz-attacked-by-hamas-shot-executed-heads-cut/ Chabadtzke (talk) 02:15, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

"Die Welt" reports a interview of a woman who talks about a war crime by hamaz.

A woman reports in a interview of the murder of her grand mother. She got killed by hamas terrorists, who recorded her dead body and posted it on her grandmothers facebook account. Poles Ragge (talk) 17:39, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Is this a request for this to be included in the article? AntiDionysius (talk) 17:45, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

If so, I would be inclined to go against its inclusion; not that it's not horrible, but it is one of a very large number of atrocities. The section on war crimes does not list individual cases, and I think that's a wise choice that should not be overridden without a very strong specific reason, given the hundreds (if not thousands) of potential entries on such a list. AntiDionysius (talk) 17:49, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree that we can't include every death in this article, nor every newspaper article about a death. Walt Yoder (talk) 17:52, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Israel preparing for "months long ground campaign" in Gaza

A recent report which is important.[13] Ecrusized (talk) 18:07, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Thai death count now at 18

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/10/i-just-want-my-son-families-of-thai-workers-in-israel-face-painful-wait-for-news 45.51.103.71 (talk) 18:09, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

This has now been superseded. Archiving. Riposte97 (talk) 02:32, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

UAE: appalled

Please add UAE reaction to Hamas attack, Muslim countries reaction summary might need tweaking. Source: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/uae-calls-hamas-attacks-israel-serious-grave-escalation-2023-10-08/ 2.55.180.194 (talk) 18:37, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done this should be at International reactions to the 2023 Israel–Hamas war, which already has a different description of their statements. Walt Yoder (talk) 18:35, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Map Discussion

@Ecrusized: In regards to the fighting in Re'im, I don't think we should use Twitter or primary sources to update the war maps. We need secondary, verifiable sources to cite. -- Veggies (talk) 19:00, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

@Veggies: I also rarely quote Twitter, I did this time since it was from the IDF's official account. This clash was also reported on Israeli media.[14], [15] Ecrusized (talk) 19:05, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

@Ecrusized: Ah, I see it now. [16] -- Veggies (talk) 20:11, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Israeli troops

Are there publications describing the Israeli forces that are usually deployed around the borders and those that were deployred on Saturday ? How is this possible no alert was given ? Ukrainians and Russias hold a 1000 km long front and annonce when they move forward by 100 m. Here is a a 15 km long border which was expected to be fully controled by IDF... RadXman (talk) 20:55, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

That was not a front line as in Ukraine. It was a security barrier and a surveillance system. They failed, see here. My very best wishes (talk) 21:14, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

The whole subject of Israeli intelligence failure is much bigger. See Egypt’s spy chief said to warn PM of ‘terrible operation,’ Netanyahu denies it. See who their minister of national security was, see the political struggle in the country due to 2023 Israeli judicial reform, etc. My very best wishes (talk) 21:34, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Thank you.

I tried to find data.

That border is protected by Gaza division.

It consists on 2 brigades and 1 batallion which means 7500 soldiers.

They are assumed to watch Gaza.

That's not just a question of intelligence.

Where were they ? Hamas sent only 1000 men in total, many unarmed per pictures.

Kibbutz are reported to have been assaulted by 100 men max...

RadXman (talk) 21:51, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Good question. This says that Palestinian fighters penetrated the Gaza division headquarters at Reim. But no, it was not just 1000 Hamas men, but several thousand. According to reports by IDF, they killed 1,500 Hamas fighters in Israel. Yes, the Hamas fighters formed a number of small groups. My very best wishes (talk) 22:22, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Among the 1000 very few went back to Gaza. Some took hostages but Israel deployed helicopters that killed all people passing through. More in the 1500 there were many unarmed fighters. Pictures show numerous Palestinian crossing the border without weapons. There is also this [17]. I wonder how many soldiers were present out of the 7500 ? RadXman (talk) 06:27, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Second Yom Kippur War usage

There was some talk about how there's not yet a reputable source calling this conflict the "Second Yom Kippur War". Here's an op-ed from the Times of Israel that uses the term: https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/yom-kippur-ii/ -- Frotz(talk) 21:13, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

its an opinion blog. 37.252.92.97 (talk) 23:57, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Your point? -- Frotz(talk) 23:59, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Opinion pieces are generally considered unreliable for statements of fact per WP:NEWSORG. estar8806 (talk) ★ 00:01, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes, as estar8806 pointed out, the WP:RSEDITORIAL policy states:

"Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (invited op-eds and letters to the editor from notable figures) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact."

Fuzheado | Talk 02:06, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Not only is that a "blog", the phrase "Yom Kippur" is only used in the headline. This doesn't mean anything and should not be in the article. Walt Yoder (talk) 16:50, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Yom Kippur ended last month. Borgenland (talk) 07:31, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Some have reffered to it as such due to the war having started 50 years and a day after the Yom Kippur war in 1973. Furthermore, the scale and surprise at the Israeli side soppourts this. However, it does not seem that this will emerge as the name of the war since it did not occur on Yom Kippur but on the Jewish holiday of Simchat Tora in the Sukkot week holidays. Homerethegreat (talk) 09:52, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Unfortunately what these sources seem not to or misunderstand is that Yom Kippur is not a fixed holiday since it's based on the Jewish calendar. Borgenland (talk) 09:55, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Shouldn't we be calling this the 2nd Yom Kippur War?

Think about it, this is the 50th anniversary of the Yom Kippur war. Hamas specifcally chose this day to attack Israel, hence, it should tbe the 2nd Yom Kippur War. Mr. Bobie (talk) 22:56, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Whilst it's quite possible that such a name will take off in the future, no sources are currently using that term so it would not make sense for Wikipedia to start using it. We follow what other sources use, rather than inventing new terms. Chessrat ^{(talk, contributions)} 23:00, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Mr. Bobie: A logical idea, but Wikipedia only says whatever reliable sources say about the subject. Thus, the title of the article is whatever the majority of sources are calling it. (That's a slight simplification, but the central idea is what matters here). Edward-Woodrow • talk 23:00, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

The recent title change is explained above; in a nutshell, Wikipedia bases its titling on what reliable sources are calling the topic. Changing the title to the Second Yom Kippur War would be new coinage by Wikipedia, and that's something to avoid. Yue🌙 23:00, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Same reason why aren't calling the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine the "Russo-Ukrainian War"? Mr. Bobie (talk) 23:06, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

That would be the Russo-Ukrainian War, which has been going since 2014. The invasion is a part of the wider war, and only began in 2022. Bremps... 00:10, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

I think 2nd Yom Kippur war is better as the current one seems bad as it implies only Hamas took part in the war rather than multiple groups Bobisland (talk) 01:12, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree with your reasoning but disagree with your title choice. Not everything is "Part 2: Electric Bugaloo". Yue🌙 01:14, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Yom Kippur ended a month ago. Borgenland (talk) 07:22, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

@Borgenland is right. In Judaism we use a lunisolar calendar and in 1973, Yom Kippur was on the 6th of October, this year, that date corresponded with the festivals of Shemini Atzeret/ Simchat Torah so the English date has nothing to do with YK since it wasn't the 10th Tishrei. שי 18:29, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

@Borgenland I'm a minor editor since I have less than 500 edits, but can you please close this discussion as I believe we have provided enough evidence as to why this shouldn't be called the 2nd Yom Kippur war שי 18:57, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

@LionFireKing404: Since this isn't a formal edit request or other process, there's no need to formally close the discussion. Cheers, Edward-Woodrow • talk 19:41, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

What happend with syria

why israel attacking syria Muhammed Aashin vp (talk) 14:38, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

IDF announced yesterday that they detected mortar fire from Syria, despite it not entering Israeli territory, hence they're retaliating. LionFireKing404 (talk) 14:39, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

write it in the belligrents Muhammed Aashin vp (talk) 14:48, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

It wasn't the Syrian government. It was a militia group, but I don't know the name. Syrian government has never engaged in direct battle with Israel except for Hafiz Assad time. Aminabzz (talk) 15:42, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 October 2023 (5)

Please mention the codename of the initial operation of Hamas at the beginning of the article, namely the "Al-Aqsa Storm" operation. MartiyaIR (talk) 15:26, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

It is mentioned already Abo Yemen✉ 17:40, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

 Already done but the "Names" section is suing "Flood" as an alternate translation. Walt Yoder (talk) 18:48, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Hezbollah =?= Lebanon

Per the first part of the lead of Hezbollah, they are part of the Lebanese government. Earlier, Lebanon was added to the infobox, but that was quickly removed. Do we have a source saying this is only Hezbollah as a militant group with 0 support from the government party of the organization? If not, by definition, Lebanon should be added to the list of Belligerents, as part of the Lebanese government attacked Israel. Not adding it would violate the no original research policy as we (Wikipedia) would be determining that only part Hezbollah is attacking Israel, and not all of Hezbollah.

So in short, we must have a source stating only part of Hezbollah is attacking Israel to not violate the WP:OR policy and guidelines. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 20:36, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

@WeatherWriter: I'm not well informed on how much Hezbollah is integrated as a political party in the Lebanese government. In the past conflicts [18], only Hezbollah was used unless Israel had also fought the Lebanese Army. Ecrusized (talk) 07:49, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

@WeatherWriter Respectfully, that argument is fallacious. There is a distinction between a body and its constituent parts, as there is a distinction between political parties and the state. For example, if a politician were to participate in an anti-government protest, as happens regularly around the world, it would be confusing and erroneous to claim that the government was protesting against itself.

I have seen no RS that claim that the Lebanese state has materially supported the Gazan groups involved in this conflict. Riposte97 (talk) 01:47, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Subject on a possible new tab

The economic section of the reactions tab seems out of place, can we just make a new aftermath tab and add the economic impacts to it, although it’s small the events are current and we can build on it over time Bobisland (talk) 02:21, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

I would agree with the suggestion as "aftermath" seems to be a better umbrella to serve as a parking lot for other issues. The only question is when does the term "aftermath" apply as this is an ongoing event with things changing by the day. Jurisdicta (talk) 03:55, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Aftermath effects are already taking place it’s not like adding it will do considerable damage such as people thinking the war is over as its being covered across the news very heavily, I don’t know what to do but I think it’s a good idea Bobisland (talk) 01:07, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Why isn’t the first paragraph moved above the infobox?

It seems like a good lede Bobisland (talk) 01:15, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

They're side-by-side on desktop. Is this a mobile issue? — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 01:49, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

yes I’m on mobile Bobisland (talk) 02:24, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Would it be better to place it as the lede or will that look bad for desktop? Bobisland (talk) 02:24, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

above infobox* Bobisland (talk) 02:25, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

First para appears before infobox on mobile for me.. might be just a glitch on your end..? Asdfjrjjj (talk) 04:13, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Palestinian deaths

Should we sum the number of killed militants and civilians to have 2,555? We can then open a parenthesis to mention the number of civilian and militant deaths separately.

P.S.: I touched on the "add new topic" button but my entry came between the previous one and its refereces (also the next two entries and possibly every other next published entries are between mine and those references). If it's fixable please fix it. Aminabzz (talk) 15:26, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Mention the new national government which has formed

Times of Israel have confirmed Benny Gantz has joined the national unity government. Ben Gvir has even reportedly mentioned it on X Netanyahu, Gantz agree to unity war government as IDF pummels Gaza | The Times of Israel

Can this be added in the National Unity section in the Reactions page? LionFireKing404 (talk) 14:26, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

LIVEBLOG: As Israel Readies For Counteroffensive, Terror Attacks Continue, Death Toll Crosses 1,200 - I24NEWS

Confirmed also by i24 News LionFireKing404 (talk) 14:28, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

 Already done Walt Yoder (talk) 18:49, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Possible US operation

There is a possible us operation to save the hostages in gaza should we prepare a separate Wikipedia article just in case?

https://www.axios.com/2023/10/09/netanyahu-ground-invasion-gaza-israel-hamas-biden Evansnikolai (talk) 04:11, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Articles are not generally created or drafted before a predicted event. If such an event does happen (an Israeli ground invasion or rescue operation), I don't see how it is outside of the scope of this article. Yue🌙 04:28, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Subject on civilian casualty wording

As of now, all civilian casualties of Palestine are attributed, while all of the Israeli ones aren’t, there are also MOS:WTW issues, in the future I think this should be fixed Bobisland (talk) 04:38, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Would File:Israel Security Agency.svg qualify as PD-textlogo?

Right now it's marked as fair use, but it's pretty simple. There's not much at Commons:Copyright rules by territory/Israel#Threshold of originality to go off of, but it looks about as complex as several logos already on Commons at Commons:Category:Logos of Israel. If it'd reassessed to be PD-textlogo, then it can be put next to Shin Bet in the Units involved section of the infobox. The Squirrel Conspiracy (talk) 06:09, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

More Chilean victims

I request the editor to add the following deaths and captures

To date there are 4 Chilean people dead, At least one Chilean woman who was captured by Hamas and an unspecified number of people lost, the evidence:

https://www.emol.com/noticias/Nacional/2023/10/10/1109567/chilenos-descendientes-fallecidos-israel-hamas.html Darknessofhumanity (talk) 06:17, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Foreign nationalities

A Danish citizen is missing and hasn't yet been added to the list:

https://jyllands-posten.dk/international/ECE16501360/dansker-er-meldt-savnet-i-israel/ 193.169.154.66 (talk) 06:29, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Fatah and Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade

don't know why it was removed, while i do think that MEMRI is very partisan on Israel's side, they have proof from Al-Aqsa's own telegram channel that talks about how they attacked the Israeli Al-Taybeh checkpoint and military camp in the West Bank, and Al-Aqsa is basically a wing of Fatah, so that would pretty much give a reason for its inclusion. 177.83.128.215 (talk) 16:44, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Please familiarise yourself with WP:RS and WP:OR for the policy reasons this was removed. Riposte97 (talk) 02:19, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 October 2023 (4)

In the infobox table in the units involved: change Shin Bet to Shabak as it's better known as that terminology. Also add Israel Border Police, Israel Fire and Rescue Services and Ministry of Defence to the units involved. Thank you. Shachar700 (talk) 11:23, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Shin Bet is more commonly used than Shabak in English language media, so I cannot fulfil that request per WP:COMMONNAME. The latter is unnecessary as only the Israel Border Police are a unit, but it is not mentioned in the article (fails MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE). Yue🌙 03:50, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 October 2023

1) Change the following : Palestinian militant groups to Palestinian terrorist group Hamas isn't a militant group but a terrorist group in many of the world's countries. https://ecfr.eu/special/mapping_palestinian_politics/hamas/ Creekcrod (talk) 12:50, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

This is not black-and-white and there is no consensus, so please keep the more neutral language instead. TuukkaH (talk) 13:13, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: see TuukkaH's comment. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 23:58, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 October 2023 (3)

Isreal Supported by America. Riyadh edits25 (talk) 16:04, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template.

This has been discussed already The US was listed in the infobox, but was removed. --AntiDionysius (talk) 16:11, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 October 2023 (6)

In the morning ofOctober 10, 2023, a Saturday and holiday celebration day for the Jewish people, the Hamas led a terrorists invation into Israeli territory, aiming to murder and kidnapp as many civilians as possible. The enent was led and performed by vicious terrorists, not by Palestinian militants, hence This is definitely NOT a part of the Israeli Palestinian conflict.

During 1st day of attack, the terrorists fired over 5,000 rockets at Israeli civilian's residents, as a distraction to tens of drones and parachutes bombing Israeli military cameras and sensors along the border with Israel, allowing hundred of vicious terrorists entering Israel to rape, kidnapp and brutally murder whoever comes in their way.

The terrorists aimed 3 places to be blitz attacked all at once. The military bases, knowing that a lot of the soldiers are on their holiday and Saturday vacation. A music party at Re'im, with more than 2,000 attendies, civilians. And Israeli Jewish settlements all along the border to the Gaza strip.

Aiming civilians on civilian territory in the settlements, they methodically went from house to house shooting residents, killing parents in front of their children and kidnapp the children into the Gaza strip, slaughtering whole families at their houses, and dicapetate some of them, including children.

In the party at Re'im a huge massacre accourd, as they shot all they could find in their way, raping woman, and kidnapping some of them across the border using cars stolen from the murdered civilians and with drones sent specifically for that purpose.

It is worth mentioning that images from the fight zones, plural fight zones as mentioned above, were taken by Israeli media and also by foreign media, but vast majority of them were censored by media channels of different states, while reporters talking about the photage they saw were wipping tears they could not hide from audience mentioning their experience in reporting from war and conflict zones, and how horrified they where at those photos from the terrorists attack in Israel Racheligalk (talk) 16:04, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. --AntiDionysius (talk) 16:07, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 October 2023 (7)

Add Syria to the Side of Hamas since they have also attacked Israel. Sources: https://www.spiegel.de/ausland/israel-wird-auch-aus-syrien-und-dem-libanon-angegriffen-und-reagiert-mit-beschuss-a-f1f33198-b1a7-4579-8c16-707864bf7ade https://www.juedische-allgemeine.de/politik/angriffe-auf-israel-auch-aus-syrien/ And many more, you can search it up لهثسن (talk) 16:16, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Its not Syria that is attacking, but Palestinian groups in Syria, and the attacks are very small.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:43, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Also it's unclear which Palestinian group it was. Only source I could find blames unnamed Palestinian groups and Hezbollah.[19] Ecrusized (talk) 16:48, 11 October 2023 (UTC)