Talk:Isaaq/Archive 1

Archive 1

Redirect

As neither Isaaq nor Isaaq clan have very much information, it doesn't seem like much of an issue to redirect one to the other, but I thought I'd bring it up for discussion anyway. While "Isaaq clan" has more text, I think the article should simply be named "Isaaq" as there doesn't seem to be a need for disambiguation. Thus I suggest we move the contents of "Isaaq clan" to "Isaaq," and make the former a redirect to the latter. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 19:07, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Agreed and done--good catch! --Dvyost 19:11, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Sources now named

The sources of the article are now named, so the label can be removed. S710 12:36, 7 June 2006 (UTC) 7 juni 2006

• Thanks for providing these but both sources are fairly lengthy. It is unclear which portions of this article cite which portions of your sources. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 13:18, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Conflicts were removed

As this page is dedicated to the Isaaq clan the conflicts within the clan is neither important not it is relevant. I suggest starting a page which links as Isaaq(conflict).—The preceding unsigned comment was added by L33ter (talk • contribs) 10:59, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

The Qaddiriyah Order Of The Sufi

I have removed the section "The Qaddiriyah Order Of The Sufi." There was no explanation of the relation (if any?) between the order and the subject of the article (other than a very general indication that the order has adherents in East Africa). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 13:38, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Origin

Sharif Aydarus Ali Aydarus Al-Barawi (d 1347 A.H) the a fore mentioned author wrote his book titled 'Bughyat Al-Amaal Fi Taarikh Al Soomaal ', the first book of history on Somalia and an early account of Islam and Arab migration to southern Somalia. Also the author wrote a short book on the origin and history of the ancestor of the Isaaq clan , in his short book (Thamratul Mushtaaq Fi Manaaqib al Sayid Isxaaq 1947.) Aydarus Al-Barawi a southern Ashraf of Yemeni origin detailed the life and times of Sheekh Isxaaq Ibn Ahmed Al-Alawi (d 560 A.H) both in his early life in Yemen in the 12 century and his later migration to Zayla where he eventually died after fathering the modern eight Isaaq sub-clans and the other four Yemeni Isxaaqis. Its ironic that he man Dr Mukhtar relies on contradicts his entire thesis of denying the Arab origin of the Isaaq nation, one must ask how could it be possible that such mistake was rather accidental from Dr Mukhtar's part and not deliberate.

Western Somali specialist can be dismissed in making their wild unsubstantiated argument against an Arab case for Isaaq and Daarood due to the fact of the limitation of their research based both in language (only English) and their early concocted theories about the Origin of Isaaq and Daarood, but an Azhar graduate and a Middle East specialist Dr Mukhtar have an access to all Arab historical documents regarding Sheik Isxaq and Daarood, his case is more of scholars prejudice rather then simple ignorance. The earliest records mentioning the genealogy and life of

Sheikh Isxaaq Ibn Ahmed in modern Somalia were known as far as the 523 A.H 1127/1128 A.D, almost eight centuries ago, Mohammed Hassan Al- Basri in a short biography written some times during his return to Damascus from the horn of Africa wrote about the journey of Sheikh Isxaaq from Mukha to Zayla, in his manuscript titled ' Al-Asjad Al-Mandum Li-Taariikh Wal-Uluum' presently housed in the Al-Dahiriya historical library of Demescus, Al-Basri detailed the life of sheik Isxaaq both in Yemen/Zayla and later Mait where he eventually settled with his tow wives and children and where presently his tomb is located. Again the southern Dr choose to ignore the established historical evidence and continue to dwell in his Banaadiri/Southern fantasy.

There are over six books mentioning either sheik Isxaaq or one of his ancestors to claim all these documentation are fantasies manufactured on behalf of the Isaaq clan during the 12th century by Arab historians is far fetched non sense, yet both Western and Somali specialist continue without examining these sources to rely on Richard Burton a man of yesterday filled with his white British supremacy claiming to have laid his small foot on Zayla before all other foreigners despite the fact he just arrived in 1854 and I.M.Lewis who for half a century studied Somalis but never looked far beyond his anthropological thesis. The western Somali specialist suffer from a tunnel vision, often instead of making an impartial candid study of Somalis and judge the simple historical record and keep their ideas to themselves instead choose to reaffirm their already pre-conceived idea and stamp it on the Somal. The days of Cushite/Hemetic and Afro-Asiatic labels are numbered and Dr Mukhtar and his likes are dangerous in one aspect and that is their suffix Dr/Proff/Historians qualifies their rubbish to be taught in universities and self perpetuate itself.

The scope of my short essay is not an account of early Islam in Somalia nor is it a comparative study of Zayla and Mogadishu, its a simple awakening call for so called Somali specialist to cease the old speculative theories on the origin of some Somali clans and concede the historical record and unique history of every clan, there was no such a thing as 'Somalis' during early Islamic times , there was only a group of Black Berber as Ibn Batuta himself a white Berber referred to them, tribes living in modern horn of Africa each had their own historical arrival be from across Arabia or from central Ethiopia highland , each should be studied separately and this over all inclusive term 'Somali' should be avoided , no modern Somali clan considered himself 'Somali' as late as one century ago, the Dir were Dir and Isaaq were decendent of Isaaq and Daarood of their Daarood ancestor. The southern collusion can't discredit the medival Arabic manuscripts and literature almost a thousand (Al-Basri) years old regarding the history of Sharif Isxaaq Ibn Axmed Al'awali with few pages written in western institutions financed to perpetuate the Europeans theories on the origin of the so called Somalis collectivly, its well established fact that shiekh Isxaaq and the Isaaq people have a legitmate case of their origin judging the flimsy opinions by somali students and their Western masters versues the well documented history of sheikh Isxaaq through the Arab literature —Preceding unsigned comment added by M-ustafetani (talk • contribs) 20:01, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Removed unreferenced text

The History and Lineage sections did not include any attribution, though the article had been tagged as needing sources since August 2007. Feel free to restore the text, if it can be verified. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 17:22, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Merges and redirects to this article

I have merged or redirected a number of sub-clan articles to Isaaq. For the most part, I made these redirects, not merges: In most cases the sub-clan articles consisted of unreferenced information and an unwieldy (and effectively non-useful) list of sub-sub-clans. This article certainly would not gain anything from merging that information. In all cases the sub-clan articles did not add attributed information beyond what is already presented in the Isaaq article. Exceptions were a couple of "notable individual" listings that were actual blue links that I merged into this article. This does not preclude having separate sub-clan articles in the future, but at this time the articles really did not stand on their own. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 17:10, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

See also: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Somalia#Sub-clan articles and redirects. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:49, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

this is not correct

Gyrofrog

I suggest you look this

• [1] Loor99 (talk) 04:01, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

What is not correct? The link you provided (at least for the page that displays) doesn't mention Isaaq. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:00, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Page 257-258, of course you can see through.

the whole section [Isaaq] is not correct, why have did you have delete the privious one..

you have missed up Loor99 (talk) 19:43, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Do you mean the sub-clan listing? The previous version had lacked attribution and needed cleanup. I retained the information that was actually in the attributed source. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:10, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

It would have helped if you had provided the correct page numbers in the first place (link). The link you provided is for page 272. (I hope you did not expect me to read the entire book.) I have incorporated this source into the article (which, keep in mind, you were free to have done yourself). Thanks, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:09, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Middayexpress has since removed the Lange-sourced text, claiming it is a fringe theory that is contradicted by all others. I'm not sure who or what the others are; until now, this article only cited a single source for the sub-clan lineage, with which Loor99 apparently disagrees. I am unfamiliar with Lange and will not offer an opinion regarding his validity as a reference, except to point out that the title of Lange's book refers to West Africa, and as such, I'm not sure how Somalis fit in that context. I had devised a table to mimic "Chart 9" in the Lange book, which I will preserve here. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 17:21, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Issaq ( = Isaac), father	Hannifa ( = Hagar), mother	Tolja'lo, or Ahmad	Habar Habuusheed
		Ja'lo, or Muusaa
		Sanbuuru, or Ibraahiim
		'Ibraan, or Muhammad
	Magaado ( = Sarah), mother	Garhajis, or Ismaa'iil	Habar Magaadle (e.g. Habar Awal and Habar Ayuub clans)
		Arab
	unknown ( = Keturah?), mother	Awal
		Ayuub

It is not necessarily the genealogy itself that makes Lange's theories fringe, but his idea of how the Isaaq actually came about in the first place. Lange claims that the Isaaq genealogy is patterned after that of the Biblical and Quranic patriarch Abraham and that this genealogy shifts the ancestry from Abraham to Isaac, both of which are false and not claimed by any one else, certainly not by any Somalist scholar. He also claims that one particular Isaaq sub-lineage has as a matriarch an Ethiopian slavegirl, which is also false. Basically, Lange has a theory that many disparate groups in Africa who have quite literally no connection with one another (whether cultural or linguistic, much less ancestral) do, in fact, share a common descent through either the Biblical Ishamael or Isaac. Whereas this might perhaps seem quasi-plausible vis-a-vis other less documented ethnic groups, with Somalis, it simply doesn't fly. There exists plenty of old hagiologies in Arabic as well as the work of modern Somalist scholars which extensively document the provenance & movements of Sheikh Isaaq, and none of them bare any resemblance to what Lange claims. Don't get me wrong; Lange admittedly has an interesting idea, but at least with regard to Somalis, that's about all it is. Middayexpress (talk) 18:02, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

RFC at Category talk:Somali clans

Please see the RFC I opened at Category talk:Somali clans. This is in regards to the inclusion criteria for the sub-clan listing. (Also see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Somalia#Clan lineage.) Thank you. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 18:42, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Synthesis

A user has added a section titled "Genetic evidence contradicting Arabian origin of Isaaq", where he states the following:

In 2005 the Department of Forensic Genetics of the University of Copenhagen in Denmark had examined the Y chromosomes of 201 Somali immigrants living in Denmark.Some interesting findings have been made which shed more light on the true origins of Somalis. According to this research the overwhelming majority of Somalis belong to haplogroup E1b1b within this haplogroup the rare sub-clade E1b1b1a1b (E-V32) is the most common which is unmistakably of Horn African origin and quite rare in Yemenis and Arabians in general. It is unlikely that none of the tested men were of Darod origin, as Darods make up a large proportion of the Somali diaspora and the Somali population in general .

The first source that he cites actually directly contradicts his claims since it states outright that "East Africans are more related to Eurasians than to other African populations. Investigations of Y chromosome markers have shown that the East African populations were not significantly affected by the east bound Bantu expansion that took place approximately 3500 years ago, while a significant contact to Arab and Middle East populations can be deduced from the present distribution of the Y chromosomes in these areas." The source also does not mention either the Darod or the Isaaq Somalis. The second "source" is just a link to a map of the geographical distribution of the various Somali clans. All in all, a pretty clear-cut case of synthesis. Middayexpress (talk) 21:19, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Comments from 3rd party

(Also posted at Talk:Darod) I explained to Middayexpress that I haven't thoroughly read the studies in question. However, even without consulting these, there are other problems with the section:

• Statements such as "Some interesting findings have been made which shed more light on the true origins of Somalis" (my emphasis) are PoV. See also MOS:OPED. Regardless of whether the material is accurate or not, this statement doesn't belong in the article and does suggest PoV-pushing (again, aside from questions of accuracy).
• "It is unlikely that none of the tested men were of Darod origin, as Darods make up a large proportion of the Somali diaspora and the Somali population in general" is definitely synthesis. It cites the CIA map showing clan distribution in Somalia. It does not have any attribution whatsoever that "It is unlikely that none of the tested men were of Darod origin."

-- Gyrofrog (talk) 22:52, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Arab/Arap

April 2010

Arab (Arabic: عربي‎) Is the dominant tribe of Hargeisa and is part one of the sons of Sheikh Isxaaq Binu Ahmed, —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anadiif (talk • contribs) 15:02, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Can you cite a reliable source for any of this? -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:21, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

As I've already pointed out to you, the Allexperts site is a mirror of Wikipedia. Your link is an old version of a Wikipedia article. We can't cite Wikipedia; see WP:CIRCULAR. Thank you. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 02:43, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Arap (Somali: Arab) is one of the major subclans of the Somali Isaaq family. They live in both the western and eastern parts of the northwestern Somaliland region of Somalia, as well as the Ogaden. They also occupy the south and west of Hargeisa and are regarded by many sources as the original settlers of the city. Particular in the neighbourhood of what is modern day Dumbuluq.

The Arap played a vital role in the Somali National Movement (SNM) and liberation of Somaliland. The city of Baligubadle which is exclusively inhabited by Arap, was the capital of the SNM during their efforts to capture northern Somalia from the Siad Barre regime.

The name Arap refers to the nickname of the Son of Isaaq Mohamed ibn Isaaq also known as 'Mohamed Carab'. The Arap sub-clan divides into the following:

Sheikh Osman Arap Abdalah Arab Eli Arap Suber Eli Musa Eli Mohamed Eli Abokor Ahmed Mohamed Hashim Abokor

Reer Adan Warabe 
Ahmed Abdalahe 
Reer Ali ^_*

musa omar Saleban Hussein Hashim Muse Abokor Makaheil Muse (Afyare) Maxamed 'Fanax' Muse Abdalhe Muse Geelqonof Abdalah Abokor Samane

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Anadiif (talk • contribs) 13:07, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Again, you are referring to an old version of a Wikipedia article (WP:CIRCULAR). In this case, it's an old version of Arap (for example this edit). "Arap" now redirects to "Isaaq", see "Merges and redirects to this article" elsewhere on this talk page, as well as Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Somalia#Sub-clan articles and redirects. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:41, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

P.S. You are welcome to participate in the current discussion at Wikipedia:CNOTICE#Somali clan listings. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:46, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

November 2010

The wife of sheikh ishaak bore him twin sons, and their names were Ahmed, Nick-named Arap and ismail nick-named Gerhajis, A Tree for poverty: Somali poetry and prose —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anadiif (talk • contribs) 14:37, 23 November 2010

I have added this as a separate account (source: ISBN 1550221779), rather than modifying the existing clan trees which cite their own sources. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 21:56, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

But also see User:Middayexpress's comments in the #this is not correct section on this page. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 22:06, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

septemper2011

I have added two new photos of the Isaaq Tomb which are a stamp and a photo from the 50s. showing that its old not like new other clan tombs Darod . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Muktar allebbey (talk • contribs) 23:32, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

File:Sheik Isaaq Stamp.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

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Source

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=syATJKcx5A0C&pg=PA257&lpg=PA257&dq=history+isaaq+clan+tree&source=bl&ots=qk1LYARVlI&sig=lyOd-BUtTfdRr0mHr0xL43odogw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yKxTT46HGc6L4gTI89HfDQ&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAjgU#v=onepage&q&f=false . which by the way is an English source and hope to improve this page which is lacking a lot of information .and viva somliland — Preceding unsigned comment added by Muktar allebbey (talk • contribs) 18:09, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

What is it you want to do, exactly? Please propose the wording you wish to use, citing the source you wish to use. FYI, when I click on this link I get "you have either reached a page that is unavailable for viewing or reached your viewing limit for this book." Also, another editor has previously raised concerns concerning this source; see #this is not correct elsewhere on this page. Thanks, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 19:40, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

oh realy (when I click on this link I get "you have either reached a page that is unavailable for viewing or reached your viewing limit for this book.") i think your server needs some help because the link is working fine ,and for the question what i want is simple the truth nothing but the truth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Muktar allebbey (talk • contribs) 22:44, 4 March 2012 (UTC) p.s all your links are bad or old or tormented so let me fix it if you don't mine . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Muktar allebbey (talk • contribs) 22:46, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

I get a book page at the link but I really am not sure what you, Muktar allebbey, are trying to say with that page or with what you are typing here. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 21:58, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

i am showing you the tree of the Isaaq clan which by the way you don't want to see and its OK with me and that he didn't have only one wife but two....(history isaaq clan tree) and the source is in English thank God so you don't say it is in an another language — Preceding unsigned comment added by Muktar allebbey (talk • contribs) 21:14, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Again, regarding the Lange source, please see #this is not correct elsewhere on this page. And you haven't given a good reason (beyond "all your links are bad or old or tormented") as to why you are deleting the existing sourced content. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 13:49, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure, either, particularly when the edit in question concludes with "but needs evidence" (link). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 20:02, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Also unclear is why anyone would have two tombs (as opposed to, say, a tomb and a cenotaph), especially located so far from one another. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 22:41, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

simply because our cousins in Yemen want it so deeply that they also have a tomb till sheikh Isaaq ,and i can not blame them i mean when ever they want to see their grandfather they must travel to Somaliland which they used to do in the old days and that is not easy but their elders know that the one in made is the true grave of our Grandfather peace upon him . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Muktar allebbey (talk • contribs) 20:58, 24 March 2012 (UTC) P.S The Isaaq Clan are not only in Somaliland but also in Yemen,and some parts in Iraq God Bless them all. and if there was a proper DNA test i wont need to have this talk with you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Muktar allebbey (talk • contribs) 21:04, 24 March 2012 (UTC) This article is about Issaq clan not the darod clan, so stop manganing the darod here they is a hole page about the darod clan and i don't see you once manganed the Isaaq clan. and they are not relatives and if so where is the prove ,and if you think that by saying they are relatives it makes it OK it is not. by the way we have a written which is been documented by Hashimates in Yemen but it is in arabic so i can not use it because of the rules and bye the way i am shore they never heard of the darod clan ??? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Muktar allebbey (talk • contribs) 21:41, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

You've changed "one of the Prophet Muhammad's early followers", which cites its source, to "one of the Prophet Muhammad cousin Ali" which doesn't make sense, and also without providing a source (other than leaving the existing citation in place). Regarding the Darod content, note that neither I nor CambridgeBayWeather added it. Rather, until now, you hadn't specified any reason for removing it. For what it's worth, I think it was there only for the sake of comparison, and as such, I don't see how it's harmful. But I've reworded it for now. Also, you copy-pasted from this source, which is not allowed (see WP:COPYVIO). But see also WP:USERGENERATED and WP:SOURCES regarding that web page. You've re-added "non of the English soldiers will but foot in the big cities and that there wafies should be left in Adan and not give birth to children" which I can't understand (no offense). I've responded earlier in this section regarding genealogy and Isaaq's wives. Finally, you changed the interwiki link to Arabic Wikipedia, but actually I can't tell if either link is valid. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 13:49, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

ok now i will fix it and want to thank you for all the information which helped me much and i delete the soldiers and fix the copy from the site. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Muktar allebbey (talk • contribs) 14:13, 26 March 2012‎

Thanks for taking all of this into consideration, but there are still some problems. I logged in from a different computer and I was able to see the I.M. Lewis source at Google Books. There is nothing there that corroborates your assertion regarding a second tomb in Yemen. In fact, Yemen is not even mentioned, and I don't understand why you even cited this source. (I'll also note that Lewis himself makes the comparison between Isaaq and Darod, which you complained about when it was mentioned in the article. But that part has been reworded, anyway.) You said that Isaaq's tomb is one of the oldest in Somalia but you didn't provide a source for this (and you did it in such a way that it was separate from the rest of the image caption). Also, regarding the clan tree, you changed "there is no clear agreement" to "there is clear agreement." This doesn't make sense, in light of the fact that you've now posted a third version of clan genealogy. No offense but I can't understand what you were trying to say about Aydarus Al-Barawi. I had previously suggested that you specify exactly what you wish to change, before making the changes. Please try and get WP:CONSENSUS for what it is you're trying to do. You haven't been as aggressive in your actions but note that [WP:3RR]] still applies. (Note that the interwiki link to Arabic Wikipedia had been fixed in the meantime) -- Gyrofrog (talk) 15:12, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

(but needs evidence)i used to underline this question ,and about Aydarus Al-Barawi was a well known writer who wrote about Isaaq,and it gives who ever wants to study to look up the book , and about the oldest tomb i have gave i link to a picture goes back to 1957 which was made to a stamp in English Somaliland era . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Muktar allebbey (talk • contribs) 01:06, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

The section also contained various OR claims. Some were quite bizarre, like the claim that Sheikh Isaaq was buried in both Yemen and northern Somalia. How exactly does that work? At any rate, the article [2] it was ref'd to clearly states that his tomb is in Maydh/Mait ("Al-Basri detailed the life of sheik Isxaaq both in Yemen/Zayla and later Mait where he eventually settled with his tow wives and children and where presently his tomb is located"). Flickr is also not an r/s. Middayexpress (talk) 15:54, 20 April 2012 (UTC) nothing is bizarre in the claim that sheikh Isaaq God bless has an another tomb in Yemen , i answered that if you read the talk page first. and what is wrong in using flicker as a source it clearly shows the same tomb in the same place in the 50 ts and made into a stamp by the English and is in English. and if you have any thing to add , just add it and don't use a old version of the page and waste everyone's work here mr express. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Muktar allebbey (talk • contribs) 01:24, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Sheikh Isaaq's tomb is in Maydh/Mait in northern Somalia, not in Yemen. The cited article clearly states this too: "Al-Basri detailed the life of sheik Isxaaq both in Yemen/Zayla and later Mait where he eventually settled with his tow wives and children and where presently his tomb is located". The article does not state anything similar to what was added to the wiki page (viz. "The legacy of sheikh Isaac in not only found in Somali land but also in near by Yemen where there is a other tomb calming to be of that of the sheikh, but needs evidence"). That is original research. Flickr also is not a reliable source per WP:QS. For the rest, have a look at WP:CIV. Middayexpress (talk) 14:50, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

For two points you have changed the hole article and send us back in time ,which in a way you could have changed the two points not the hole article lets start with Flickr also is not a reliable source per WP:QS. OK i wrote two new sources which are books for the idea of how old the grave is,and about Yemen grave i delete it because it does not have a good English source . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Muktar allebbey (talk • contribs) 18:02, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

The part you added about Isaaq's being one of the oldest tombs in Somalia, is not mentioned in the Lewis source. All it says is that the tomb is located near Mait (Maydh). Also, in the clan tree section, I don't know why you keep changing "there is no clear agreement" to "there is clear agreement". The edit history of that section will show there is little or no agreement, and even now the article includes different versions (all sourced). Other parts of your edit simply aren't clear ("treaties ... containing that the English will maintenance there independence and in response the Isaaq people pledging them and their successors...."). And, as previously mentioned, please see WP:USERGENERATED and WP:SOURCES regarding the maanhadal.com source (especially that you're using it to replace a published book). You complain about sending the article "back in time," yet these issues have been previously mentioned, and you haven't addressed all of them. Thanks, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 21:03, 2 May 2012 (UTC).

first thanks for answer and showing the week points in my writing ,so lets start with Lewis source, which i used for myargument :Blood and Bone in page 110 in the book it says (the ancient town of maid .......it is mentioned on several occasions in the sixteenth- century futuh and is also marked on early maps ) so the point i was trying to say is that the Isaaq clan have one of the oldest tombs in Somalia only if any one can give me a other source which says otherwise . and about the clan tree the Somali people didn't write before the 70s and the only way they used to keep in touch with other clans men and family was throw memorizing there for fathers ,which is by the why the only way the clans have there power over the Somali people till today so there is a clear agreement that my Great Grand father had 8 sons who by the way are all baird beside him in Maid. not only two just because a person who may have had an interest in the subject says so.and about the (regarding the maanhadal.com source (especially that you're using it to replace a published book) by the way which i found in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zabid_District, and is used by Middayexpress in the article about Zabid so if it is ok for others to use it why is forbidden for me to use it and by the way the writer uses 5 different sources for his article which all by the way are books .i hope that i have answered all your questions and thanks . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Muktar allebbey (talk • contribs) 01:32, 3 May 2012

Now you've simply reverted to the earlier version, about which Middayexpress already explained the problems. For example, you've re-added the unsourced information about the tomb in Yemen, but it also re-introduces other problems that had been cleaned up in the meantime. In fact, it re-introduces problems we were discussing back in March - how could this improve anything? As for the Lewis source, it does say the tomb is old, but that's not the same thing as saying it's one of the oldest. (And the Flickr sources, being unsuitable, are also unnecessary.) You've made a point regarding the maanhadal.com source, but the information you're adding from it still isn't clear: no offense, but it looks as though you copied and pasted it, and changed the words just enough so it wasn't a copyvio, except now it doesn't make sense. I can appreciate that the clan lineage has mainly been an oral tradition, but WP:V still applies (we are trying to avoid having lists like this old version). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 03:23, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

To what Gyrofrog wrote, I'd add that much of the edit was difficult to understand/incoherent. There was also errant spacing and other formatting issues. Also, just to correct one thing (although this is off-topic): Somalis historically actually used a modified Arabic script called Wadaad's writing to transcribe documents, and later, the Osmanya alphabet, among others. It's the Somali alphabet based on the Latin script that was formalized as the national orthography in the 1970s. Middayexpress (talk) 14:49, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

about the flickor source which you say (And the Flickr sources, being unsuitable, are also unnecessary) is seen necessary by me for those who would like to see the stamp and old picture of the grave and the idea yhat Isaaqs grave is the oldest should not make any of you or express angry its fact give me facts that say otherwise instade of just bashing the hole idea , and yemen grave site is deleted and i fix the hole article to be more informative and give the most information about Isaaq God bless him. and for you expees the Somali people i meant the southern Somali people Xamar i agree that Somaliland people had writings and you can find it in the Treaties the wrote withe the English and Osmanya alphabet is a Somaliland ALPHABET and no one ever hared a bout the guy you clam to be the inventor of the alphabet and the Osmanens were in Somaliland and never got to Xamar so explane how the Alphabet got there . P.s there are a lot pf documents and Qurans and ancient Islamic texts but all are in Arabic and osmanyan alphabet and the government is now trying to besserve it Somaliland i mean . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Muktar allebbey (talk • contribs) 19:01, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Alshabab

write about the other leaders of al shabab which come from darood and hawiye clans in thier pages first or simply leave the object if you are not fair expess. .http://sunatimes.com/view.php?id=392) (undo) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.237.211.179 (talk) 01:56, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Notable Isaaq people

Come on now Mo Farah and Hadraawi are not Notable Isaaq people? please be Neutral or objective or prejudiced. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hadraa (talk • contribs) 02:11, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

The problem is that most or all of the articles about those individuals do not even mention clan affiliation, or cite a source. See WP:Source list, and in some cases WP:BLP applies as well. But fair enough, this isn't the only Somali clan article with this issue - point taken. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 05:13, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Notable is defined as famous or worthy. Now how Mo Farah and the most famous Somali play writer and composer Hadrawi doesn't fit that definition is baffling to say the least. XKeyse (talk) 08:50, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

What is this?

The article contains the following sentence: According to early Islamic books and Somali tradition, the Isaaq clan was founded in the 12th or 13th century with the arrival of Shaykh Ishaq ibn Ahmad al-Hashimi from Arabia, one of the Prophet Muhammad's early followers. A follower of the Prophet Muhammad arriving in the 12th or 13th century? Either the sentence is garbled or this is nonsense. Maybe whoever wrote this intended to say that the fellow who arrived in the 12th or 13th century was descended from one of the early followers of the Prophet. In any case this should be corrected. Contact Basemetal here 12:01, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Indeed, it's meant to say descended from. Middayexpress (talk) 15:36, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

new sources.which are not WP:CIRCULAR; the other WP:SPS

i have used your advice and used new better sources to better the article thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hadraa (talk • contribs) 23:00, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

@Hadraa:, I've made the same comment on your talk page, but since you left a comment here I will respond here, as well: Please have a look at Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources. We can't cite web forums, such as sunniforum.com, or other user-generated content, such as the page at halbeegnews.net. The second of these would appear to be a news website, but the particular page you cited was user-generated. Furthermore, that page cites Wikipedia, which we don't want to use (see WP:CIRCULAR).

thanks brother for the information but what you ask of me hard because they are the only sites that translate the Arabic books and about a prophets follower i hope you fix it and i will use your advise thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hadraa (talk • contribs) 23:25, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Besides what User:Gyrofrog notes above, Somalilandpress is also a blog (please see WP:SPS). Middayexpress (talk) 19:05, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

thanks brother for the information but what i learned from Gyrofrog was that he wasnt against the first news web that iused but the information was writen in the comment section , and if Somalilandpress is a blog you must then consider http://www.midnimo.com and http://www.raxanreeb.com that you used in Bur’i Mohamed Hamza article as a blog and you seem to use much of http://www.garoweonline.com and http://afrol.com. so keep save and good talking to you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hadraa (talk • contribs) 20:23, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Somalilandpress is indeed a blog (other Somaliland media describe it as such [3]). The other media outlets you name are not asfaik. Additionally, the Somalilandpress article in question is an opinion piece, which is discouraged for use within wiki-text on living people (please see WP:BLP and WP:REDFLAG). While your edit was made in good faith, it is nonetheless at least in part redundant since it is already noted in the history section that there are numerous existing hagiologies in Arabic which describe Sheikh Isaaq's travels, works and overall life in northern Somalia, as well as as his movements in Arabia before his arrival. Similarly, his marriages are already covered in the clan tree section. There was also some broken formatting. At any rate, I've retained and linked to the full list of historical publications on the Sheikh. Middayexpress (talk) 15:09, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Thank you brother and i will take your information in considering next time thank you for your time and stay save. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hadraa (talk • contribs) 15:34, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

isaaq

Isaaq Yes they are from the isaaq clan and what you asking is impossible to give you prove, by the way somalias know who is and from which clan he comes from and we have talked about this subject before so leave your comment here. Cheers — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hadraa (talk • contribs) 16:36, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

User:AcidSnow, please also see here by User:Hadraa. Middayexpress (talk) 17:07, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

That makes no sense whatsoever. Like you said, its "impossible to give you prove". AcidSnow (talk) 20:03, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Their abtirsi is indeed well-known. Middayexpress (talk) 16:39, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

How? For example, Mo Farah, the only clan related info on him is from Edan who disputes his claim that he is from Mogadishu and that he is possibly Isaaq. How is that even reliable? AcidSnow (talk) 21:13, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Understood, but abtirsi is a known quantity [4]. The same could also be said for many of the others. Middayexpress (talk) 15:15, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

What is that? AcidSnow (talk) 19:32, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

note that i have said before that we have came to a conclusion that what you asking is hard and i have asked you to do the same with the other Somali clan pages but you simply insist in destroying the work of others in this article please leave it be and thanks.AcidSnow. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hadraa (talk • contribs) 14:45, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

this is a article by the guardian hope you read it and i dont know what kind of prove you need more cheers AcidSnow [5].

User:AcidSnow, it is an abtirsi repository [6]. Middayexpress (talk) 17:52, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

The abtirsi repository appears to be WP:USERGENERATED, e.g. it runs on forum software and has user's comments within the pages. Meanwhile, Hadraa, you've added numerous items where the article doesn't even mention clan affiliation, much less cite a source for it. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:36, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

I know it's user-generated. I wasn't suggesting it wasn't, but merely pointing out to User:AcidSnow one of the various ways we know the abtirsi. Middayexpress (talk) 16:50, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

As I have stated before, Mo Farah is not Ishaaq let alone born in "Somaliland". AcidSnow (talk) 19:45, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

'how do you know that read the newspaper first' Are you serious? I clearly have:

"Edna Adan Ismail, the former foreign minister of Somaliland, says: "Mo Farah may have been born in Mogadishu, as were many Somalilanders who happened to be working or living there during the time when Somaliland and Somalia were united, but he is not from Somalia. He is from Somaliland. He is from the Isaaq clan, and Jibril Abokor sub-clan, who are not natives of Somalia".

This is pure speculation of his origins by some women and nothing more. His own website states he is from Mogadishu.[7] Why don't you find a legitimate source that actually states he is Isaaq and was not born in Mogadishu instead of wasting everyones time? AcidSnow (talk) 19:58, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Why ????

when any fair person looks at the two biggest clans of Somalia hawiye clan and Darod clan you will find tens of notable people with no soures what so ever and the isaaq notable people are deleted by more then have simply for the need of sources. hope we work in fairness to improve our work and not just paias against one article not the other thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hadraa (talk • contribs) 18:07, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

You have a good point, though in the case of the Hawiye article, it had at least been tagged concerning the same issue. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:57, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

See also my comment from 2012 at Talk:Darod#Notable people and Talk:Hawiye#Notable Hawiye figures. Meanwhile I'm working on both articles. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 15:14, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Isaaq

AcidSnow, Hadraa is actually right about Omaar's clan affiliation. The man comes from a prominent Isaaq family. His father was a successful entrepreneur, who owned many businesses and real estate properties in Mogadishu, where he was born. Middayexpress (talk) 16:34, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Nah, that wasn't the problem but rather his source. AcidSnow (talk) 16:40, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Understood. Middayexpress (talk) 17:01, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Burton & Eno

AbwaanRoble, please note that according to John Walter Gregory, the musings of Richard Burton were based on atypical Somalis [8]. Burton's genealogical claims are therefore apocryphal per WP:REDFLAG. Also, as per WP:NOTADVOCATE, the genealogies proffered by Mohamed Eno are also unreliable since he is apparently a Bantu-centered advocate of "Afropolitanism" [9]. This is a euphemistic term for Afrocentrism [10]. You can't complain that the genealogies collected by the British Somaliland government on the patriarch Ram Nag are unreliable for the Dir clan, yet in the next breath assert that redflag and Afropolitan claims are legitimate for other clan forefathers. Soupforone (talk) 03:01, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Soupforone, please note that per WP:REDFLAG

(surprising or apparently important claims not covered by multiple mainstream sources;)

Maybe Eno's research on discrepancy in the Somali genealogical claims are not covered by mainstream research. For example:

"Sheikh Isaq came to Somali Soil in 548 AH, having left Baghdad in 498 AH. By employing simple differential calculation, we see that Sheikh Isaq, though his age at the time of his departure from his point of origin or any other transit area was not satisfactorily established, landed on Somali soil at around half a century later than his year of departure from Baghdad. What age exactly he was at the time of the commencement of his incursion is not illuminated either beyond any reasonable doubt. If we assume that he was a mature and stout young man of 30 years when he departed from Iraq, upon his arrival on the north coast of Somalia he is already an old man of 80 years. Can we then assume that he was teaching Islam to his in-laws at that age for 16 years, tolerating painstakingly the effects of gerontology, as well as raising young children from his wife/wives? The oral traditions then add that he later set on another journey to another territory, the Arussi area.To increase the confusion, Lewis gives elsewhere in his volume. The debate over the origin of the Somali people Saints and Somalis (p.14) that a certain Sheikh Ali Sh. Ibrahim who detailed the hagiography of Sh. Isaq, records 727AH as the year of Sh. Isaaq’s death. Reconciling these dates becomes a constraint since logic denies rendering credence to one version against the other for their inconsistencies. The discrepancy is so wide that it ridicules Sheikh Isaq’s life span to over two centuries, and that he was bearing children at that unthinkable age"

or

"How many of them have also married from the local community and how many had come with their Arab wives? Have any of them returned to Arabia ever since, taking some of their offspring and/or wives with them? Which sub-clan/s represents the descendents of Sheikh Isaq’s relatives among his entourage? All these and many more questions in fact lack the answers they beg for, hindering to facilitate the reconstruction cohesively for the clearer reckoning of the historiography of the Isaq."

Both may perhaps not be covered in mainstream sources, but it sure does raise questions on the legitimacy pertaining to their oral history. Per WP:REDFLAG I have the right to add mainstream sources which identify the Isaaq as Dir affiliation.

Karanle/AbwaanRoble, Eno's musings definitely fail both WP:REDFLAG and WP:NOTADVOCATE. They are at once exceptional non-mainstream claims, written from a position of advocacy, originate with him (i.e. they are his own opinions), and are contradicted by the standard genealogies on these clans. I also don't understand why you removed the British Somaliland government's genealogy on the Dir clan patriarch Ram Nag, though it by contrast is legitimate. Soupforone (talk) 16:17, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Soupforone, to answer your own question I would like you to read your own words regarding Ram Nag "They are at once "exceptional non-mainstream claims and are contradicted by the standard genealogies on these clans." So it fails both WP:REDFLAG and WP:NOTADVOCATE. Most mainstream sources state Irir of the Samaale.

However Isaaq Dir affiliation is claimed by many mainstream sources, for example:

Somaliland: The Strains of Success Crisis Group Africa Briefing N°113 Nairobi/Brussels, 5 October 2015

Page 19 : Appendix B: Political Parties [11]

The British Somaliland government is a mainstream authority, obviously [12]. Its official genealogical survey is actually more reliable than a random political briefing. That's where the Ram Nag geneaology originates too. Soupforone (talk) 16:52, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Mainstream implies that it's shared by most sources and regarded conventional, so it's not. A political briefing regarding Somaliland which claims are shared by multiple different mainstream sources is reliable. I'm not here to go back and forth. I hope that explains everything for you. Karanle

Actually, WP:MAINSTREAM on wiki means high quality within a particular field of science or scholarship. The experts in this area are scholars such as I. M. Lewis, not polemicists and the like. Anyway, be well. Soupforone (talk) 02:06, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Eli muse

Eli muuse Waa beel ka mid ah Habar awal kuwaaso u qaybsama

Sacad muuse Ciise muuse Celi muuse Cigale muuse Celi waa nanaysta cali muuse suber awal

Kaaso ahaa curadkii uu dhalay Subeer awal sidaa awgeed ayaa somalidu qofka curadka ah hawsha ayay ku carbiyaan qofka ugu horaaye qoyska u dhashana waxaa soo qabo iyo soo celi ayaa lagu taba baraa dhaqan keni hore

Waxaana ka yar yaraa

Sacad oo ah reerka hada ugu badan habar awal iyo ciise oo iyaguna la mida waxana dhalasho ahaan ku xigay cigale

Muuse Hadaba celi muuse waa curadkii muuse subeer Waxayna degaan beeshu oo ay ku badanyiin gobolada saaxil iyo hargaysa Iyo gabilay iyo deganada xadka Ethiopia marka wajaale laga galo deganada xadka soo xiga Waxayna ku dhex dhafanyiin oo ay degaan wadaag yahiin iyo danwadaagba beela kalee Subeer awal sida sacad muuse iyo ciise muuse oo ayaguna deganadaa anu soo sheegnay kaga badanba Eli muuse (talk) 22:23, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

Dir

I have removed the Dir connection because it is incorrect. The vast majority of scholarship accepts Isaaq as a stand alone group and not part of any other group. The citation attached to the deleted segment was from a book written by I. M. Lewis, he was stating what some of his local sources had told him and not accepted facts. In most of his writing, including the book the citation was taken from, he mentions Isaaq and Dir as separate groups, and again here. He is not alone, as the vast majority of scholars refer to Isaaq as a separate clan, see here,here, here, here, here, here, here, here, and here. There are many more but I hope that point is clear. There are some mentions of links between Isaaq and Dir like this, but its weak as the author (same I. M. Lewis) states that it is some other Somali that 'pseudo-histrically' regard the Isaaq as part of dir, and clarifies that they (the Isaaq) themselves deny it.Kzl55 (talk) 22:58, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

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Ciyaarta naga daa

Kzl55 The book you cited is Richard Burton's - First footsteps into East Africa. The Author died in the 1890's so could not have possibly witnessed the final raid on the dervish. Haji Waraba leading an exclusively "Habar Awal" army is an outright lie and so is the outrageous claim that the "Habar Awal forced the other clans into Somaliland and dominating them until unification". This is all lies and you have the audacity to accuse people of vandalism. Be objective and stop editing articles to fit your qabiilist agenda. And please next time you edit an article atleast provide a proper reference. GeelJire (talk) 20:32, 21 February 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by GeelJire (talk • contribs) 20:29, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Isaaq and Dir

There is controversy on whether the Isaaq constitute a stand alone clan or they are part of the Dir clan family. There are many reputable and notable scholars and organisations which have covered this issue. There is a big reason why the content explaining controversy should be kept. If you dispute this, please discuss here before you removed sourced content. Thank you.Shirshore (talk) 22:26, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

The majority of reputable sources confirm Isaaq to be a stand alone clan. This is not new information and is echoed on Britannica. You are edit-warring across multiple articles currently, this style of editing is not looked upon favourably in Wikipedia and may lead to sanctions. Please continue using the talk pages and reach consensus first before restoring contentious edits. Kzl55 (talk) 12:34, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Ok. If I provide reliable and notable sources will this information be added to the page? Am not arguing that some also don't consider it a separate clan family, am saying there are others who believe Isaaq is part of the Dir clan. I think this information would be useful to Wikipedia readers, because it would for example explain why the Isaaq are classed as being part of the Dir clan by the Somali government etc.Shirshore (talk) 06:08, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

The question is what does the majority of reputable sources indicate? As @Kzl55 stated, the majority of reputable sources indicate that Isaaq is a standalone clan. Promotion of minority views clearly goes against neutrality guidelines for Wikipedia. Koodbuur (talk) 19:36, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

The Somali government classifies Isaaq as part of dir and this should be mentioned in the article why is it not Sahasu (talk) 22:43, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 September 2019

I want to add a file which furtherly prove this page. Dahalson (talk) 19:10, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. – Jonesey95 (talk) 20:49, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

habar jeclo

In the clan tree section the Habar Jeclo tribe link keeps redirecting to the Isaaq page even though there is an article about the Habar jeclo.

The redirection should be removed and it shall link to habar jeclo article directly. Zaki199105 (talk) 22:35, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Sultan Abdillahi Deria of the Eidagalla.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 03:23, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 October 2020

Chieftains of the Isaaq clan in Hargeisa, Somaliland

Replacing this photo with a higher quality version that I have uploaded & linked below

Chieftains of the Isaaq clan in Hargeisa, Somaliland

Leaders of the Isaaq tribe photographed in Hargeisa

WanderingGeeljire (talk) 10:45, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: These are th same image and there is no discernible difference in quality. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:01, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Isaaq are Dir and not Arabs

Isaaqs are not Arab, we’re Dir. The Sultan of Dir even listed the lineage of the subclans at a conference and Isaaq was one of them, plus Isaaqs take part in Dir Conferences. People have bent the truth to deny us our lineage and push us against Arabs which we have nothing to do with. This bogus lineage about Arabs is completely fabricated. AbdirahiimYa (talk) 14:09, 13 July 2021 (UTC)