Talk:Hark! The Herald Angels Sing

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On 22 June 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Hark! The herald angels sing. The result of the discussion was not moved.

Untitled

I have moved the following German translation here, as it does not seem to belong in the article. -- Chuck 18:01, 5 February 2007 (UTC) [reply]

Extended content

Hark! The Herald Angels Sing has also been recently translated into German by Bernhard Stock (c) 2006:

"Engel kündet nah und fern"

M: Felix Mendelssohn
T: Charles Wesley
Dt.: © 2006 Bernhard Stock
4/4 F-Dur

1. Engel kündet nah und fern: Ehr' dem neu gebor'nen Herrn!
Gottes Frieden allen künd't, die verlor'n in ihrer Sünd'.
Laut der Engel Chor erklingt: "Freut euch Völker, jauchzt und singt!
"Christ der Herr", so ruft mit Schall, "liegt zu Bethlehem im Stall!"
Engel kündet nah und fern: Ehr' dem neu gebor'nen Herrn!

2. Christus, den die Himmel ehr'n, Er, der ew'ge Herr der Herrn!
Von der Jungfrau auserkor'n, ward als Mensch uns heut gebor'n.
Gott, der in den Himmeln thront, heut' im Fleische bei uns wohnt.
Sohn der Magd aus Israel, Jesus Herr, Immanuel!
Engel kündet nah und fern: Ehr' dem neu gebor'nen Herrn!

3. Heil dem Friedefürst der Welt, Sonne, die die Nacht erhellt!
Licht und Leben Du uns schenkst, auf den Weg des Heiles lenkst!
Deine Gnad' erschien, o Gott, und errettet uns vom Tod.
Durch Dein Kommen wird zuteil allen Menschen ew'ges Heil!
Engel kündet nah und fern: Ehr' dem neu gebor'nen Herrn!

4. Komm, Du Sehnsucht dieser Welt, steig herab vom Himmelszelt!
Komm, Du Licht in dunkler Nacht und bezwing des Bösen Macht!
Was verderbt durch Adams Sünd', wird geheilt durch dieses Kind!
Neuer Adam, Jesus Christ, Du der Welt Erlöser bist!
Engel kündet nah und fern: Ehr' dem neu gebor'nen Herrn!

Ken Blount

Why did you erase, Ken's singing of this song? In one of the Christmas episodes of The Gospel Bill Show, Ken sang that song at the end. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.92.204.227 (talk) 03:12, 28 March 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Hark! as the last carol at the Bach Choir Family Carols concerts

I understand that Hark! The Herald Angels Sing is more often than not the last carol in the London Bach Choir's Family Carols Concerts. Would it be all right to add this into the article? If so, where can I find the reference?Yip1982 (talk) 08:04, 16 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thee should be a section on the verse that's usual skipped

Come, Desire of nations come, Fix in us Thy humble home; Rise, the Woman's conquering Seed, Bruise in us the Serpent's head. Adam's likeness now efface: Stamp Thine image in its place; Second Adam, from above, Reinstate us in thy love. That part is left out the majority of times it's sung or recored, I wnder why, it's the bets part y humble opinion? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.131.23.208 (talk) 23:57, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Verse 3

In Wesley's original carol verse three reads; "Hail the heav’nly Prince of Peace! Hail the Sun of Righteousness! Light and life to all He brings, Ris’n with healing in His wings."

This verse is a reference to Malachi 4:2; "But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings. And you will go out and leap like calves released from the stall."

Unfortunately many modern renditions of the carol render this verse; "Hail the Son of Righteousness", thus failing to recognise the biblical reference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.210.88.56 (talk) 18:22, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Lyrical changes over the centuries

There have been some changes over the times to some of the lyrics, and I wonder if there has been any research on the subject that could be referenced here? For example, the "virgin womb" in the original lyrics was at some point altered to "favored one". Also, "Pleased with us in flesh to dwell" is often cited as "Pleased as man with men to dwell" but the original seems to be "Pleas'd as Man with men t' appear" Were these Whitefield changes?

I think this is an original wesley version: https://ia902606.us.archive.org/BookReader/BookReaderImages.php?zip=/10/items/hymnsandsacredpo00wesliala/hymnsandsacredpo00wesliala_jp2.zip&file=hymnsandsacredpo00wesliala_jp2/hymnsandsacredpo00wesliala_0153.jp2&scale=2&rotate=0 70.189.91.33 (talk) 09:22, 11 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Chart peak positions

Earlier this month, there was a dispute as to whether or not the chart peak positions for Mariah Carey's version of "Hark! The Herald Angels Sing" and Andy Williams' version of "The First Noel" should be included. My opinion is that they should. It is common for Christmas song articles to include peak positions for both the original and the different versions. I am curious to see what the consensus is on this. I would also like to hear what @Rob~enwiki: has to say about this. CountyCountry (talk) 20:55, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There's a difference between a composed 'popular song' like "White Christmas" which has an iconic performance that is indelibly associated with one singer, and Christmas carols that were composed 200+ years ago. Their popularity means that these two carols are featured on pretty much every Christmas CD by every choir ever made - cathedrals, gospel, folk, you name it, not to mention featuring on Christmas albums by a vast number of 20th and 21st century recording artists.

For a long time, these articles about Christmas carols on Wikipedia just used to be massive lists of recordings and popular culture. Over the last few years myself and other editors have been slowly going through adding histories, textual comparisons, etc, trying to make them as interesting as possible. I don't think adding a 'no 96 on the 2019 Billboard' or whatever it was adds anything, and if that's added, then it opens the door to every single version that's ever charted in any country. There have been similar discussions on the Silent Night article, which as User:Michael Bednarek noted "has been recorded by 1000s so singer-specific navboxes are arbitrary, random, inappropriate". That's also a yardstick in that even though Bing Crosby's single from 1935 is the fourth best selling single of all time, it's only mentioned in the article but doesn't have any navboxes about it. Rob (talk) 21:34, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What Rob said. Further, the proposed entry for Carey cried out to be deleted because a) it offered no wikilink to her song or album; b) the position #71 for a Christmas week in 2019 doesn't strike me as noteworthy; c) it offered no source that discussed the song and its chart position. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 01:04, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

St Patrick's Dublin

This article says that 'Hark the herald' is sung to the tune of 'Thine be the glory' as the last hymn at St Patrick's on Christmas Eve. The article on 'Thine be the glory' days that 'Thine be the glory' is sung at that service.

I have no evidence either way, but this article seems more likely to be correct - 'Hark the herald' is very often sung at the end of carol services, e.g. King's College, Cambridge.

I have marked the statements in the 'Thine be the glory' article as dubious. If anyone reading this has been to the service at St Patrick's, or heard it on Irish radio, please contribute! Mdrb55 (talk) 10:08, 21 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Mdrb55: Thanks for raising this. The addition there seemed most dubious. No citations. No edit summary. Anon-IP. So, in accordance with WP:BRD, I've simply deleted it there. Feline Hymnic (talk) 21:23, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Mapeh

How many voices are present in the song of hark! The herald angels sing 112.198.68.109 (talk) 00:35, 4 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 22 June 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) – Material Works 12:35, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

– Per MOS:INCIPIT and the recent RM discussion at Talk:Hear my prayer#Requested move 25 May 2023. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 01:42, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:09, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. Odd Capitalisation Choices That Should Be Corrected! Cnbrb (talk) 09:24, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support all four per nomination. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 10:24, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Per MOS:5 and MOS:CT, the title case is clearly appropriate for at least some of them. This should be dealt with on a case by case basis. The C of E God Save the King! (talk) 16:22, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Lots of English hymns are known by their incipits and currently capitalized. See Category:English Christian hymns. There is inconsistency, but capitalization seems to be the norm. I see no reason why the title of a work could not be the same as its incipit. Srnec (talk) 20:15, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- I recommend the opposers read the discussion linked in the nomination. The arguments there apply to these four works (and many others), too. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:14, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  - And I addressed them. There is no reason the title of a work cannot be its first few words—or that the first few words cannot be treated as a title (both in general and in RS). See this ngram fo "Be Thou My Vision". The capitalized version dominates. The same is true of "Silen Night", "Away in a Manger", "What Child Is This?", "O Sacred Head Now Wounded", "The Church's One Foundation", "Amazing Grace", etc. English hymns are not like papal bulls, since they can also have titles that are not incipits (e.g., "The Old-Rugged Cross", "How Great Thou Art") Srnec (talk) 05:51, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per The C of E God Save the King! and Srnec. As with Talk:Hear my prayer#Requested move 25 May 2023, the decision whether MOS:INCIPIT is applicable in these instances will likewise have to be determined by consensus. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 08:37, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Capitalisation rules in MOS:TITLECAPS are subject to MOS:INCIPIT - these hymns are known by their first lines or few words of text. External style guides vary, but it looks like this question is governed by the Wikipedia MOS, which gives musical settings and legal documents as examples. If there was a need to make hymns the exception, then this would need to be discussed and established explicitly at MOS:INCIPIT. Cnbrb (talk) 08:48, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support per MOS:Incipit In ictu oculi (talk) 14:44, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Srnec and user:The C of E Okiyo9228 (talk) 15:57, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose hymns are songs, and song titles regularly contain uppercasing. The Angels song has been recorded and performed many times using both the common title and the uppercasing, and I'll assume the others have as well. Nothing broken here. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:50, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Randy Kryn and WP:COMMONNAME. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:18, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose These are still songs widely known and recorded by these particular titles so they should be capitalized. While their names came from the first lines, I don't think their usage matches the typical meaning of incipits, at least not Hark! and I Vow. Reywas92^Talk 14:03, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose all. It's a song and regardless of policies, the capitalization is extremely common / expected in other sources. SnowFire (talk) 02:42, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as argued by Srnec. Adumbrativus (talk) 03:00, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as to Hark! The herald angels sing. In sentence case that would actually be Hark! the herald angels sing because the exclamation mark was acting as a comma not a full stop. E.g., [1] [2] [3]. Compare also Panic! at the Disco. Better to just use the common all-caps title rather than imply that these are two sentences (and rather than confuse people with the old-timey mid-sentence(!) exclamation). (Meanwhile, MOS:INCIPIT really ought to be changed so that English hymns follow the more common title-case style.) SilverLocust (talk) 07:16, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Original melody

"Wesley, who had written the original version as 'Hymn for Christmas-Day', had requested and received slow and solemn music for his lyrics, which has since largely been discarded." This precedes footnote reference 1, which says nothing about the original music. I don't like "reference needed" notes and am not going to add one, but I think this claim should be documented if possible and the original composer credited even though his music has "largely" been discarded. I don't see how it could have been "largely" discarded either, if it was completely supplanted by the later Mendelssohn-based melody. If it wasn't completely supplanted and some trace of the original melody remained, then the original composer is all the more deserving of credit and mention. In any event, if there is no documentation for the assertion that Wesley "had requested and received slow and solemn music for his lyrics, which has since largely been discarded", I suppose this should be deleted (or a tag added – which, again, I don't favor). Bret Sterling (talk) 18:42, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The German Wikipedia article, de:Hark! The Herald Angels Sing, claims that the Wesley's hymn was first sung to "Amazing Grace", which the source provided in that article doesn't support, and which is unlikely given the chronology of both hymns. The German article then states that Wesley used the melody of "Christ the Lord Is Risen Today" which is roughly supported by the cited source. The same source is used in the English article, supporting the same statement in the section "Mendelssohn melody". As it stands, the sentence you quote is unsupported and a {{Citation needed}} tag should be added or, my preference, the sentence removed. The core of the claim in question goes back to an edit by 203.219.176.31 in December 2010. I think it's safe to remove it. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 04:09, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]