Talk:Hargeisa

very biased presentation of the city of Hargisa

The article in hole misses a lot of events in the past. I feel it glorifies the old regime of Siad Barre by mentioning the very few achievements that happened during his time and ignoring his wrong deeds.

I agree Hurbad (talk) 10:23, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Hargesa 1960-1980

I have a problem with the brief description of Hargiesa's history in this page. It jumps over and skips a lot of important events with a very few details and a misleading tone. So from 196o to 1980 all what is there to talk about is a museum? Furthermore, what about the period from 1980 to 1991 (the time that witnessed an extensive and systematic human rights violations on a large scale against the population of Hargiesa and much of the central-eastern present day Somaliland)I suggest we expand this section into 3 parts:

A) From 1960 - 1969 (from the union to the coup)

B) From 1969 - 1980 (from the coup until the beginning of human rights violations)

C From 1980 - 1991 (from HRV ending till the beginning of the Somali civil war)

We can add more sections later, however, I believe these 3 different eras that shaped Hargiesa's history should not be trivialized by a museum that was destroyed later during the civil war. Or the "Numerous new development projects that were subsequently launched in the city " when in fact, it was prohibited by law to build over 2 store building in the north(present day Somaliland) One of the many unfair government practices discriminating against the majority Isaaq clan n the region which it's not highlighted anywhere here. Warabe-94 (talk) 18:50, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Edit war

@Somajeeste: you have violated Wikipedia's WP:3RR rule. Please self-revert your most recent edit or you risk getting your account blocked. What you are doing is disruptive editing. The situation between Somaliland and Somalia is well known, and Somaliland's status has been discussed extensively. The section has suffered persistent vandalism for quite some time now which is why many of the pages were placed under protection. This is not a new discussion Talk:Hargeisa#Semi-protected edit request on 2 September 2015. Please cease the disruptive editing and self-revert your most recent edit. You can then discuss the issue in the talkpage. Kzl55 (talk) 15:40, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Per WP:BRD, please discuss your edits here for consensus User:Kzl55. You have removed content which have reference from CIA Factbook. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Somajeeste (talk • contribs) 15:43, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Are you refusing to self-revert your edit? You have violated Wikipedia's 3RR rule, please self-revert your edit first or you risk getting your account blocked, then a discussion can start on your objections. Kzl55 (talk) 15:52, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Are you kidding ?? you are the one removing useful content and i revert it , don't remove discuss it here, what is your concern? Hargeisa was mentioned as " Northwestern Somalia" on its reference do you have concerns about the legitimate of reference is CIA factbook, go and check for your self and hey making threats against me mean absolutely nothing Somajeeste (talk) 16:05, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Only reason for removal of that source was because it will lead to further disturbance and edit warring as is happening right now. The BBC country profile does both highlight the geopolitical reality on the ground that is Somaliland's de facto status and acknowledge that Somaliland is not internationally recognised, as such it serves the intended purpose of citation and is more appropriate for inclusion. Please cease the disruptive editing, this section has suffered a fair deal of vandalism and disruptive editing mainly from the Somalia side. There are so many pages that need work, instead of editwarring on Somaliland articles out of some misplaced sense of nationalism your efforts are better suited to populating the section. Kzl55 (talk) 09:57, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

I have reverted your re-addition of the twisted, non-neutral material to this article. and I have no intention of allowing material which twists the facts to be readded to these articles. Do this three times and you will be reported to AN/I (or blocked, as the template warns). Somajeeste (talk) 10:12, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

WP:BURDEN specifically says that the editor who reinserts text takes responsibility for that text. Now, most of it is uncontentious, though very vaguely connected, and for now, I've readded it. I'd invited you to explain at the talk page but you don't have anything other than BBC,, CIA FACTBOOK was there no need to change the facts, your intentions (removing text with reference) represent non-neutral point of view.Somajeeste (talk) 10:18, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

You are in violation of Wikipedia rules, for the last time, I advice you to do a self-revert or you risk your account getting blocked.

I have explained the reason behind my edit and the inclusion of a legitimate source that present both the fact the Somaliland is indeed a de facto state and that it is not internationally recognised. Reference to Hargeisa as a city in northwestern Somalia is not appropriate due to the de facto status of Somaliland. Just like the reference of Taipei as a city in the southwest of the PRC is not appropriate or reflective of the reality on the ground. But you know all of this. Kzl55 (talk) 10:41, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Please cease the disruptive editing. As said previously, referring to Hargeisa as a city in northwestern Somalia is not appropriate due to the de facto status of Somaliland. I've updated the language to indicate the de facto status of Somaliland, that should be enough to settle the matter. Kzl55 (talk) 08:56, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

I consider the information on the CIA fact book very important, But "Horn of africa" is a non-NPOV that shouldn't generally be used in Wikipedia's Hargeisa page this is city is Northwestern Somalia. And the cited sources make an obvious point, The repeated removal is disruptive and not NPOV. Somajeeste (talk) 10:34, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

I have repeated the same point multiple times now, referring to Hargeisa as a city in northwestern Somalia is not appropriate due to the geopolitical fact that is the de facto status of Somaliland. Other de facto states like ROC (Taiwan) would object to referring to Taipei as 'a city in the southwest of the People's Republic of China'. Please see Taipei for precedent. Somalia has no control or influence over that territory, it has not had any connection with Hargeisa for 26 years. Please cease the disruptive editing.Kzl55 (talk) 19:48, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 May 2017

Please revert it the way it was change from Horn of africa to Northwestern Somalia

this guy is famous for WP:PROMOTION and WP:POV his intention of allowing material which twists the facts . this is un acceptable to edit without discussing consensus, it important as CIA fact book referenced to to mention northwestern somalia.

}} Somajeeste (talk) 15:47, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

False. I have just returned the page to its pre edit-war state. It is you who refuses to engage in discussion on this very pageTalk:Hargeisa#Edit war. You continue to editwar despite previous warnings User talk:Somajeeste#3RR warning, an admin already told you that ordinarily you would have been blocked for your behaviour and violation of 3RR. Please cease the disruptive editing. You clearly have a biased editing history against Somaliland [1]. I have asked you to explain those edits and you refuse to do so. Your best bet is to engage in the talkpage before you make edits. You are still editwarring on Adal Sultanate without presenting any proof Adal extended beyond Somaliland Talk:Adal Sultanate#Somalia despite multiple requests to do so. What you are doing is disruptive editing. The project has suffered so much vandalism and disruptive editing in the past, please stop. Kzl55 (talk) 15:58, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Please come back to the discussion above in the talkpage before making requests for edits. A consensus should be established before any edits are made. Kzl55 (talk) 16:33, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Proposed question for a WP:Request for comment

Should Hargeisa be described as being (a) in Somalia, (b) in Somaliland, (c) in the Horn of Africa, or (d) in some other way? EdJohnston (talk) 21:54, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

From NPOV Hargeisa should be described as in Somalia, though it of course is legally an autonomous region of Somalia, Especially considering the fact that the whole world considered it nothing other than Somalia. so being described in Somalia does offer greater recognition for those who are not Somalia experts. and then we can add capital city of breakaway region of Somalia that declared independence in 1991,Somajeeste (talk) 02:17, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

Are you disputing that Somaliland is a de facto sovereign state? And that it has had no link to Somalia for 26 years?

You are wrong to claim the world considers Somaliland nothing other than Somalia. Recently, Somaliland has signed a bilateral deal with the UAE (country to country) [2] allowing the UAE to build a military base in Somaliland. This happened to the objections of the Somalia government and its president, objections that were totally ignored by both Somaliland and the UAE. The president of Somalia, feeling powerless, even went on a trip to Saudi Arabia to request Saudi intervention in the matter [3]. This clearly demonstrates other sovereign states dealing with Somaliland as a sovereign state, and also Somalia lack of jurisdiction over Somaliland. Have a look at the page again, it clearly states both that Hargeisa is a city in the Woqooyi Galbeed region of the self-declared but internationally unrecognised Republic of Somaliland. It presents both Somaliland's de facto self-declared status, AND that it is internationally unrecognised.Kzl55 (talk) 09:54, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

Population is wrong

Consistent websites and consensuses on the population of Somalia has stated the population of Hargeisa being in the 6 - 500,000 region, this is a huge discrepancy between the population that is identified in the article. In fact in the article itself states "Hargeisa has estimated population of around 760,000 as of 2015", its 2017 now so how can the population jump from 760,000 in 2015 to 1.5 Million in 2017?

There are a lot of reliable websites out there on population censuses on Hargeisa that have not been referenced

Evidence of Hargeisa's Population:

[4]

"477,876" according to this census in 2017

[5]

"477 000 people" according to this website

[6]

"477,876" exactly the same according to this website

[7]

"477,876" and exactly the same here as well

[8]

""477,876" same figure yet again.

Please fix the population of Hargeisa, it is not 1.5Million its far from it as outlined above Bytro4k (talk) 17:02, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

I dont think the population is around 450,000, if you look at UNDP numbers [9] from 2005, the city had a population of half a million. Do you have any recent population estimates from UN agencies working there at the moment? Kzl55 (talk) 18:28, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 June 2017

Please copy the elevation (1334 m) of the town from the text in the introduction to the Infobox elevation_m field This is for clarity and consistency for readers wanting the basis stats of the town. MWchat (talk) 16:52, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

Done Many thanks. --Kzl55 (talk) 17:33, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

Second largest City of Somalia

Hargeisa is the second largest city of Somalia after the capital Mogadishu.Therefore, is very important piece of information that would be informative for readers. If you dispute this information being included in the article can you state your reasons here. And note - This is content is independent of the Somalia-Somaliland relationship. Xargaga (talk) 23:03, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

I don’t think the relationship can be ignored entirely if the city is no longer actually governed by Somalia. I would suggest a qualified statement, Hargeisa is the second-largest city within the internationally recognized boundaries of Somalia, after the capital Mogadishu or something like that.—Odysseus1479 10:02, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

References

Internationally recognised country and self declared state difference

There should be a (self-declared) around country and you should mention the actual country(somalia). Hurbad (talk) 10:23, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Please refer to my comment here [10]. Lack of de jure recognition does not mean it isn't a country. Koodbuur (talk) 15:22, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

It isn’t a country, it’s a state part of Somalia. Please stop undermining the sovereignty of Somalia. Amin Farah ibn-Mujahid (talk) 14:10, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

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Somaliland/Somalia

I've amended the lead and the infobox to make clear that Hargeisa is de facto part of the sovereign state of Somaliland, while internationally recognised as part of Somalia. The Somaliland article itself also clearly and prominently states this distinction, so I see no reason why it should be omitted here. Note also that e.g. Sukhumi (Abkhazia) and Stepanakert (Artsakh), comparable in terms of status and (lack of) recognition, handle this the same way. Lennart97 (talk) 15:19, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

it's already clearfull so doesn't need to added infobox, you added Somaliland a self-declared sovereign state internationally considered to be part of Somalia. Thank you --Siirski (talk) 15:54, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

It’s has been changed again to “ Somaliland” which isn’t even a country. Please re-establish de facto Somaliland de jure Somalia. Amin Farah ibn-Mujahid (talk) 16:14, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

@Amin Farah ibn-Mujahid: Please stop indiscriminately swapping Somaliland for Somalia; it's disruptive and it will eventually get you blocked. I agree with you to the extent that Somalia should be mentioned alongside Somaliland, but Somaliland is a sovereign country and denying that isn't going to get you anywhere.

@Siirski: The purpose of an infobox is precisely to summarize, and thus duplicate, information from the rest of the article. So the information already being in the article is a reason to include it in the infobox too, not a reason to not include it in the infobox. Just compare the abovementioned Sukhumi and Stepanakert, or any other capital of a state with similarly limited recognition. It's common practice to name both the de jure and de facto state in the infobox. Lennart97 (talk) 16:57, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

@Lennart97: There is already a consensus to leave the de facto status for the Somaliland article, which explains it perfectly. It would be redundant to add it everywhere else. Someone who reads articles on Somaliland's cities should already be familiar with Somaliland's status. Dabaqabad (talk) 17:02, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

“Diplomatic recognition in international law is a unilateral declarative political act of a state that acknowledges an act or status of another state or government in control of a state (may be also a recognized state). Recognition can be accorded either on a de facto or de jure basis.” Using only Somaliland's flag, an unrecognized state is misleading. Please reconsider your decision. Amin Farah ibn-Mujahid (talk) 17:12, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

@Dabaqabad: We should mention Somaliland's legal status wherever it's relevant - the article about its capital is obviously one such place. By your logic, why even mention that Hargeisa is located in the Horn of Africa? That's already covered at Somaliland too, and thus redundant. That's just not how Wikipedia works - there's no such policy as "mentioning the same information in multiple articles is redundant", and I'm sure you can think of plenty of examples of how silly it would be if it were. So it seems that you really only have a problem with this one very specific piece of "redundant" information. And as for Someone who reads articles on Somaliland's cities should already be familiar with Somaliland's status. That is also absolutely not how Wikipedia works. It's entirely reasonable that readers come across this article without knowing what Somaliland even is. And please explain why articles such as Sukhumi, Stepanakert, Tskhinvali and Tiraspol all have it wrong, too. Lennart97 (talk) 17:25, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

@Lennart97: By that logic we would have to add China to all Taiwan-related articles. That wouldn't be reasonable, would it? Somaliland's situation should be compared to Taiwan (which similarly has full sovereignty over its territory and lacks recognition) rather than compared to Abkhazia (which sovereignty is very fluid, with scholars arguing that it's effectively under Russian control [11] while Somaliland is wholly independent from foreign influence). A great example of how Somaliland's cities should be portrayed is Hualien County in Taiwan. Your edits would not make a sufficient distinction between Somaliland and Somalia clear, which is the main issue. This and the fact that you would go against a long-standing consensus agreed upon by long-standing and respected editors.

Like I said before, Somalia has no jurisdiction nor sovereignty over Somaliland's territory. A recent example is a $442 million deal signed by the Somaliland and Dubai's DP World [12] for the management of Berbera Port. The deal went through despite objections by the Federal Government of Somalia [13]. Dabaqabad (talk) 02:22, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

@Dabaqabad: Can I assume you're watching this page so I don't have to ping you anymore? :) I'm glad to see that your main argument is not simply "redundancy", but apart from that, I'm not convinced by your point, mainly because I don't think Taiwan is a good comparison at all. Taiwan is recognised by 15 countries, and equally importantly, many more countries, including world powers like the EU, the USA and Russia maintain unofficial relations with it. Compare that to Somaliland, which is recognised by zero countries and has unofficial relations with only a handful - that's just not a good comparison. As for Abkhazia, indeed its sovereignty is in question - but because of Russia's influence, not Georgia's, but still its status as de jure Georgian is rightfully mentioned. I think the main point is this: Not a single government in the world will tell you that Hargeisa is the capital of Somaliland (even though I do not dispute that it de facto absolutely is) and that is precisely why it's important information to mention at the Hargeisa article. That Somalia has zero influence in Hargeisa doesn't make the information that the world considers it part of Somalia less encyclopedic and worthy of mention.

I don't really see the long-standing consensus agreed upon by long-standing and respected editors, unless I'm missing something. Scrolling up I see the occasional message from some pro-Somalia POV pusher followed by a rebuttal that Somaliland is in fact a country, but no real discussion about encyclopedic merits of including or excluding Somaliland's de jure status. Sure, there's a clear and obvious consensus that Hargeisa is in Somaliland and that the article should state this - which I'm not going against in any way; I'm just saying it would be encyclopedic and useful to mention that it is not internationally recognised as such. Regardless, even if there is such a consensus, I think it's good to have this discussion. In fact, if we can't resolve this between the two of us, it might be useful to ask for some outside input - maybe WP:Africa? Lennart97 (talk) 10:48, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

@Lennart97: Yes I'm indeed watching this page haha so no need to ping me.

World powers also maintain unofficial relations with Somaliland just like Taiwan. It maintains representative liaison offices in the US [14], UK [15], while European states like the UK and Denmark have liaison offices in the country. Somaliland has much more in common with Taiwan than places like Abkhazia, which as I pointed out barely has sovereignty because of Russia and can be argued to be a puppet state. Somaliland is fully independent meanwhile and adding that, while understandable, does not make a sufficient distinction between the two.

Taiwan, which is your main argument, still lacks any diplomatic recognition from world powers, same with Somaliland and as for the 15 countries that do recognize it, they are small uninfluential countries (save for the Vatican City) and they recognize it as the legitimate government of China, not as an independent country (see Foreign relations of Taiwan, which supports my argument that both Taiwan and Somaliland lack recognition of their independence.

As for your main point Not a single government in the world will tell you that Hargeisa is the capital of Somaliland (thanks btw this feature is dope :)), multiple governments actually recognize Hargeisa as the capital of Somaliland, that's not disputed. Examples include USAID [16], which recognizes Hargeisa as the capital of Somaliland, as well as many articles from reputable sources that explicitly mentions Hargeisa as the capital of Somaliland (see [17] and [18])

In addition, most states deal with Somaliland directly like a sovereign state, for example the UAE signed a deal with the Somaliland government in 2017 despite the objects of the Somali government. Another example is when Somaliland rejected a proposed visit by Ethiopia's PM Abiye Ahmed accompanied by Somalia's President Farmaajo to Somaliland [19], while NY Times reported five days ago the first ever meeting between heads of Somalia and Somaliland, which happened in the office of Ethiopia's PM during the recent AU summit [20]. It is worth noting that both were accorded presidential welcomes in Addis Ababa upon arrival.

Somaliland has had no link to Somalia for more than three decades so it would be very misleading to add mentions of Somalia to it, which is already covered extensively in the Somaliland article. If that doesn't clarify Somaliland's full sovereignty and Somalia's lack of sovereignty then I don't know what else will.

Another thing that that I'd like to add is that just like Somaliland is NOT a full state in the complete sense of the word (owing to lack of international recognition), Somalia too isn’t a full state in the complete sense of the word. Yes, it is recognised as a sovereign state by the UN and most countries in the world, but its government is very fragile and exerts little control on the ground, relying on +20,000 African Union soldiers to exist. Therefore Somalia has the opposite problem of Somaliland, it is a recognised state de jure, but lacks full de facto control on the ground.

We should not cater to the minority view and instead stick to the well established consensus that editors in good standing have reached like @Kzl55: and @El C:, which I'll need to find the link for. Dabaqabad (talk) 14:07, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

(You can stop pinging me too, and you're welcome for this :p ) It's certainly interesting to see that some governments indeed call Hargeisa the capital of Somaliland, but on the other hand that makes sense: you don't have to consider Somaliland a sovereign country for it to have a capital, as regions, provinces etc. have capitals, too. It doesn't change that no government recognises it as the capital of the sovereign nation of Somaliland and that, as a consequence, all governments do still consider it to be a part of Somalia, if only de jure. That some countries do directly deal with the Hargeisa government doesn't change that, either.

Honestly, I think this is less about the details of Somaliland's recognition and status than it is a simple issue of WP:NPOV. Yes, Hargeisa is the capital of Somaliland; my version of the lead/infobox does not diminish that in any way! It just clarifies that it is not internationally recognised as the capital of a sovereign nation; that is certainly not a minority viewpoint, as it's one held by all world governments. As such, it doesn't cater to a minority view; neither does the Somaliland article itself cater to a minority view by elaborating on Somaliland's lack of international recognition.

Or look at it like this: Reliable sources, too, typically mention Somaliland's status when discussing Hargeisa, including sources cited in this article. BBC's overview is just one example. Wikipedia follows reliable sources. Whether Somaliland is closer to Taiwan or to Abkhazia in status is ultimately irrelevant; an obvious practical difference is that reliable sources don't feel the need to point out Taiwan's status whenever they mention Taipei, because this is assumed to be common knowledge among the general public. Somaliland's status, not so much - how many people have heard of Somaliland in the first place? (I don't mean that in a bad way - I think Somaliland is fascinating, but I'd be surprised if even a handful of people I know have ever heard of it.) It doesn't benefit anyone to omit this information from this article.

Anyway, the above two paragraphs are the key issues here, I think. I'm also still curious to see whether indeed there is some well-discussed previous consensus on this, and whether the two editors pinged above have anything to add. Lennart97 (talk) 15:36, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

@Dabaqabad: almost forgot about this. I guess you did too? Lennart97 (talk) 10:34, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

March 22

@Gebagebo: I have reverted your edit. You seem to say that this was POV. Can you please explain why this referenced text can’t be included on the article? Best, Shirshore (talk) 00:11, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Demonyms

Hargeisan isn't any of the demonyms of people in Hargeisa. 197.231.201.224 (talk) 05:25, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Too many images

This is pretty obvious, there's a stack of 5 images there. Esszet (talk) 02:07, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Inclusion of a pushpin map

@Gebagebo: I believe the inclusion of a pushpin map in the infobox on this page unnecessarily clutters it, pushing down the more important information on the page. This is already a very full infobox: with multiple good images, the flag, and city seal, so by having two maps, information is being repeated and taking up a lot of space. I fully believe in adding pushpin maps to pages that don't have these other things (like images), but when they do, pushpin maps are the least important of the bunch, and often take up most space. Could I remove this, or would you rather remove the interactive map? I really don't believe in having both. Cheers! Johnson524 15:34, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

I see where you're coming from now, if I had to pick between the two I'd go with keeping the interactive map. Gebagebo (talk) 10:29, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Republic of somaliland was British protectorate taken independent June 26 1960 and is not defacto but its a former British protectorate taken independent June 26 1960 while somalia doesn't have any independent somalia was Italian colony taken any independent but when somalia was unit of somaliland the first president of somalia was registered by the independent of June 26 1960 which was owned by somaliland

somaliland was a defacto but a British protectorate taken independent June 26 1960 197.231.201.159 (talk) 17:59, 10 September 2024 (UTC)