Talk:Adal Sultanate

Adal's peak

The peak of Adal is during Sultan Badlay and Walasma rule whom have links to the Eritrean coast as well as Zeila. Not during Ahmed's conquest. See the references in the article. Pankhurst barely reviewed Futuh al-Habasha anyway, the main authorities for Futuh are researchers like Amelie Chekroun. The term Badlay itself in the sultan's name refers to ruler of the upper country thats the connotation behind Badlay in ethio semitic. We can argue under Ahmed it was the most powerful state because it annexed Abyssinia entirely. Magherbin (talk) 18:26, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

@Magherbin Well if the problem was just the peak, then the image caption should of been changed because the map that was removed was a more accurate version of the map that is currently being shown. Also the claim that Pankhurst barely reviewed Futuh al-Habesh is not true considering that it was Pankhurst who helped published the english translation of that work in the first place [1] he has also written extensively about this time period so he definitely should not be dismissed محرر البوق (talk) 18:05, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Fine add back the map I have no objections. Magherbin (talk) 06:25, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

This map doesn't look entirely accurate, I would like some responses justifying why it is. I have read various sources that discuss the length of the nation and its borders. Both Tadjourah and Raheito were under the Adal Sultanate which had become rump states after its demise(noted by academic sources) and many descriptions describe the kingdom having control over the Bab Al Mandeb which was the boundary point between the Dankali Sultanate/Kingdom and Adal Sultanate. Replayerr (talk) 22:07, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Do you have a map you're proposing to add? Adal Sultanate wasnt stable they would lose territory rapidly by mini Muslim states if one of their leaders fell in battle. They would go through a rebuild even ports like Zeila were autonomous, it would only capitulate if they saw a leadership thats strong enough. Magherbin (talk) 00:32, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

I think the map is unrealistic as most maps dating back to the medieval period has explicitly shown that the Adal Sultanate's domain had extended to Bab Al Mandeb.

The Tadjourah Sultanate had formed after Imam Ahmad's rule around the same period as the Imamate of Aussa and Sultanate of Raheito.[2]

James Bruce, Krapf and Isenburg had also declared that the boundary delineating Dankali and Adal was Assab.[3]

James Bruce's map had also signified this border in his own drawn map.[4] Replayerr (talk) 11:42, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

@Replayerr Download inkscape and then download the map. Open the map in inkscape and make all the necessary changes you want. When your done click "Upload a new version of this file" and overwrite it.[5] (If that doesn't work just upload a new file in the comons). محرر البوق (talk) 19:19, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

I will do this. Thank you for notifying me. Replayerr (talk) 20:02, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Refer to page 233 for his map which was used in the Ifat(Region) article. Replayerr (talk) 11:43, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Adal region and Adal Sultanate are different entities hence you cant use that map from p.233, perhaps create your own and we'll review it here. Magherbin (talk) 10:50, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Can you link me a single source which affirms Sultan Badlay Ibn Sa'ad ad-Din controlled Suekin ? Yubudirsi (talk) 03:06, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Map

Why was the previous map removed 92.0.101.255 (talk) 14:03, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Adal's capital

@User:‎CqHydra The abundance of references indicate the capital was in the Harar plateau in eastern Ethiopia, it was not in northern Somalia. Do not alter the wording in the article the references specifically states Harar plateau not Sahil or Siyara [6] Here is a list of references on its origin being the Harar plateau aside from whats already in the article:

"Failing to check ethiopian power, the sultans of ifat moved eastward to the region of the harar plateau where they founded the new kingdom of Adal" p.77 [7]

"Later in the fourteenth century, the most militant leaders of Islam in the Horn of Africa moved further east and established the kingdom of Adal in the Harar plateau" p.100 [8]

"However, it could possibly refer to al-ʿAdal, ruled by the Walāsmaʿ dynasty, which was based in Harär after the 14th century," p.81 [9]

"the latter part of the 14th century, Adal became the leading Muslim principality in the south-eastern areas, with its capital Harar as the significant Islamic centre for the whole region" p.57 [10]

"In the east, the Muslims were led by Adal, Yifat's militant successor. Located around Harer," p.16 [11]

"Adal, Ifat's militant successor. Located in the semidesert Harer region, Adal" p.100 [12]

"Yifat was eventually replaced by a new paramount Muslim emirate in the eastern highlands, Adal, with harar as its center." p.179 [13]

"Adal, historic Islāmic state of eastern Africa, in the Danakil-Somali region southwest of the Gulf of Aden, with its capital at Harer (now in Ethiopia). Its rivalry with Christian Ethiopia began in the 14th century with minor border raids and skirmishes." [14]

"his sons escaped and returned to the harari plateau, assumed the title of Sultans of Adal" p.27 [15]

"But the fourteenth-century rise of a Walasma dynasty in the Harar region, led by large numbers of people who were clearly of Ifat origin" p.150 [16]

"It is important to note in this connection that the ancient walled city of Harar and its environs, where Harari and Argobba are now spoken were precisely the new political centres estabslihed by the Muslim Walasma princes exiled from Ifat" p.427 [17]

"eventually established the sultanate of adal in the highland districts around present-day Harar" p.64 [18]

"Sa’ad ad-dīn et le royaume chrétien, le pouvoir s’installa dans une zone plus orientale,l’« ‘Adal », dans l’actuel région administrative du East-Harargue, entre la ville de Harar et la frontière somalienne. Ce déplacement du centre du pouvoir a probablement eu lieu sous le règne du fils de Sa’ad ad-dīn, Sabr ad-dīn, qui régna selon l’Histoire des Walasma’ entre l’année 1415 et l’année 1421-22" p.145 [19] Magherbin (talk) 17:27, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

@CqHydra The source you cited by IM Lewis[20] says that Zeila was a capital of an "emirate of Adal" which was nominally apart of Ifat and preceded the Adal Sultanate. The first capital of Adal was Dakar[21] "The first of the medieval sultanates of eastern, Muslim Ethiopia for which there is documentary evidence was Dakar, apparently situated near Fiyambiro south-east of modern Harar. Dakar was established as the capital of the local Walashma dynasty early in the fifteenth century." also why did you link the Dakkar article to the Aw-Barkhadle page even though Dakkar has its own standalone article? محرر البوق (talk) 22:00, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

What on Earth is this map?

This map is absolutely asinine. If it wasn't made by a person with an Arabic username, I would assume they were some Abyssinian nationalist. The historical documentation all supports the fact that, at its peak, Adal ranged from Suakin in Sudan, to Cape Guardafui in Northern Somalia. "At the cost of incredible human losses on both sides, Imam Ahmad succeeded in creating a bogus fabric of an empire that included most of what is today Ethiopia and northern Somalia up to Cape Gardafu if not to Mogadishu. This was the first and the last forced unification of the Horn. In this vast area, especially in the central highlands, a certain administrative order was established as symbolized by the appointment of Muhammed Ibrahim, the brother of the Imam in Harar region, of Wazir Adole, at first in Bali and later as the supreme commander and administrator of the whole south and central part of the Christian kingdom, of Amir Husayn bin Abu Bakar Gatouri for Dawaro, and of Wazir Abbas, the uncle of the Imam, as the overall commander and administrator of the northern section, including the Red Sea region of/Eritrea."

The previous map should be reverted, as that was clearly more accurate. Sarkissati (talk) 17:38, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

The map doesnt state it was at its peak but at 1540 thats a decade before Ahmed reaches most of Ethiopia/Eritrea. The other map was not accurate the Habesha kingdom, Afar and Ajuran states did not exist during the Adal domination of the horn. Imam Ahmed state didnt occupy Sudan, I think you have him conflated with Badlay. Magherbin (talk) 02:22, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Adal domination of the horn stretched 160 years from the early 15th century to late 16th century. Afar kingdoms also existed at the same time often referred to as Danakil by europeans. The Ajuran period stretched from the 13th-17th century. So they were contemporaries of one another. TriSolar (talk) 19:32, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Ajuuran most certainly existed in 1540, though of course they were under Adalite domination. And what? By 1540 Ahmed Gurey was master of the Horn, with his conquests only reversed by the Portuguese intervention. Typically in Wikipedia, the map of a nation at its peak is shown. The first French Empire for example is shown at its height in 1812, even though those gains were ephemeral. Sarkissati (talk) 22:57, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

According to British explorer Charles Johnston, the Adal Sultanate by the orders of Imam Ahmad ibn Ibrahim. His troops had subdued the countries of Gondar and Massawa to the north and the country of Magadish to the south. This was attested to a library in the city of Harar that held the spoils of the Imam which included a map drawn by his wishes. Supposedly Haji Sharmarke Ali Saleh also had a copy. [22] Page 362. Replayerr (talk) 11:46, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

I don't believe Mogadishu was apart of Adal. It was ruled by its own sultanate during this time. The accounts of European explorers are not really reliable and some of them tend to make bizarre claims at times. محرر البوق (talk) 17:34, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Military,demographics & use of primary sources

i added first hand primary sources then it was removed because quote on quote 'Using excessive primary sources is inappropriate especially when you're including content that disagrees with secondary sources '. There are only 3 primary sources, The only source that goes in detail about the demographics in the adal-abyssinian war is a book called futuh al habesh, if its inappropriate to use primary source just because it disagrees with the secondary source then that would mean the secondary source is incorrect.

Moreover the adal sultanate section seem to use second hand sources when there are first hand sources from accounts like arab faqih who witnessed the adal Abyssinian wars

both primary sources and secondary sources both allude that somalis made up most of the fighting force in adal-abyssinian wars

there are currently 9 arabic manuscripts discovered by french researchers. it was written by Arab Faqih who witnessed the events

after the victory In the battle of shimbara kura arab faqih credits the somalis in the battle of shimbara kura saying 'their role in the shimbara kura is truly gods doing'

Arab Faqih credits Somalis for the victory of Shimbara Kura

Their chieftains, however, stood firm: Mattan bin 'Utman the Somali,brother-in-law of the imam Ahmad, may the Most High God have mercy upon him, fought a fine jihad. Holding firm with him was Ahmad Girri and Ali Garad, Mattan's brother and Farasaham Tal, brother of Beara; and 'Ali MadJira from the tribe of Mattan; and Husain Musa Bin *Abd Allah Makida; and Yussef Latahia, from the tribe of Ahmad Girti. Their achievements this day truly are God's doing

arabic manuscript mentioning somalis clans then finally concluding them to be all somali

Secondary sources and contemporary writers conclude that adal fighting force were somali like historian I.m lewis who attributed the victories of Adal Sultanate to somali clans

I.M Lewis writes

Somali forces contributed much to the Imām’s victories. Shihāb ad-Dīn, the Muslim chronicler of the period, writing between 1540 and 1560, mentions them frequently (Futūḥ al-Ḥabasha, ed. And trs. R. Besset Paris, 1897). The most prominent Somali groups in the campaigns were the Geri, Marrehān, and Harti – all Dārod clans. Shihāb ad-Dīn is very vague as to their distribution and grazing areas, but describes the Harti as at the time in possession of the ancient eastern port of Mait.

To futher add on oxford history of Islam state that Somalis were the majority in the adal-abyssinian war

Oxford history of Islam writes

The sultanate of Adal, which emerged as the major Muslim principality from 1420 to 1560, seems to have recruited its military force mainly from among the Somalis. In its wars with the Christian state of Ethiopia

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Anthony Walcott (talk • contribs) 02:15, July 19, 2023 (UTC)

Stop reverting and discuss all your changes on the talk page, you cant use primary sources to come up with your own conclusion. Arab faqih does not credit Somalis for the victory at the Battle of Shimbra Kure, I dont know where you're getting that from. Most of the Somalis fled that battle but Arab faqih does praise the Somali chiefs (leaders) since they didnt abandon their post unlike those under them. In the article you've created you conflate Somalis and Harla using fringe theories [23] hence im not surprised that you mistook what the primary sources were stating. This is why secondary sources are crucial to be used to analyze the primary sources. I.M Lewis and Oxford source that you've quoted is not new information its already in the article. I'm sure you've also seen other quotes about majority being Harla people in this conflict namely from Mohammed Hassan. Amelie Chekroun states only a fraction of the army was Somali refer to p.17 [24]. Hence this is disputed so we wouldnt show just one view point in the article. The other thing I want to mention is that battles of the Abyssinian campaign should not be in detail on this article it should be minimal, the article should focus more on the Sultanate itself. Magherbin (talk) 03:41, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

i have used primary sources and secondary sources both which support my claims, the article for adal contained many secondary sources to explain the events in the adal-abyssinian war when we have primary sources. removing primary sources and replacing it with secondary sources is wrong. again there's no issue using secondary sources but to prioritize secondary sources over primary sources is problematic. for example the 16th century arabic manuscript which mentions the somali clans was removed. The secondary sources use futuh al habesh ( tuhfatal Zaman ) as a reference so to remove primary sources is contradictory

with regards to your issue of 'Abyssinian campaigns should not be in detail' I've added primary sourced information about the battle of shimbara kura as a lot of the information used was secondary sources the malasai were special forces who served the imam

to address your accusation of me mistaking the primary sources.i highlighted how somalis were influential for example after the battle the somalis held a meeting amongst themselves and some of the malasai were present the somalis act were planning to leave the imam and the malasai were present and agreed.

In the meantime the Somali tribes, since they had taken booty and collected horses, mules, oxen, donkeys, slaves and fabrics, held a meeting by themselves. They said, 'We have taken vast booty, so now let us go to the imam and urge him to make the way clear for us to return to our country. If he agrees, there is no harm done. If he refuses, then we shall run away to our,country, without his permission'. Some of the Malasai people agreed with this. The Somalis said: 'If we go back, the majority of the Malasai will follow our lead, and that will leave very few with the imam'.

Page 154 Isbn 0-9723172-6-0, The Conquest of Abyssinia

most of the somalis did not flee nowhere does arab faqih say most of the somalis fled.Arab faqih credits the somalis in which I've already put up, Arab faqih praises the leader of the somalis called Garad Matan

arab faqih explicitly says

Their chieftains, however, stood firm: Mattan bin 'Utman the Somali,brother-in-law of the imam Ahmad, may the Most High God have mercy upon him, fought a fine jihad. Holding firm with him was Ahmad Girri and Ali Garad, Mattan's brother and Farasaham Tal, brother of Beara; and 'Ali MadJira from the tribe of Mattan; and Husain Musa Bin *Abd Allah Makida; and Yussef Latahia, from the tribe of Ahmad Girti. Their achievements this day truly are God's doing

To address the Harla and Somali topic, I've added sourced information which were written by french researchers, a french linguist Renne Basset first translated Tuhfatal Zaman ( futuh Al Habesh ) so to discredit french researcher's and completely disregard it is erroneous. Anthony Walcott (talk) 05:31, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

He praised Matan for holding his ground not the unit, his unit were probably punished, Matan did his job it was his group that disobeyed. Lets quote the primary sources which is titled slaughter of the Somalis "As for what happened to the Somalis on the Muslim left wing, when the fighting became unbearable they took to flight, with the infidels in pursuit, and were killed by them in a devastating slaughter. Some of them were captured, but three-thousand of them died. Their chieftains, however, stood firm: Mattan bin ‘Utman the Somali" see source [25] Chiefs dont equate entire units as you're implying here it only equates individual leaders. We need secondary sources that explicitly mention Shimbra Kure and backs yours interpretation of the primary sources. For example secondary sources on this battle can be found in this reference [26] "This account, Merid argues compellingly, makes no mention of firearms during the battle of Shimbra Koure or other battles. Rather, the decisive victory, he argues, was caused by Ahmad's use of a very experienced, highly mobile light cavalry that he drew from young Harari men who may also have used Arabian sabers." p.131. Overall the primary sources state they were slaughtered the secondary sources state they were nearly crushed see p.109 [27] I also dont see how loot obtained after the battle has anything to do with the battle itself. However according to you the battle was won because of Somalis which doesnt make any sense unless ofcourse you believe the Harla werent a distinct ethnic group, so is this the case? I dont want to come to conclusions based on fringe sources you use, but you can find sources for anything this isnt a reference competition its differentiating whats mainstream academic position and whats not. Magherbin (talk) 07:44, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

References

The current map is inadequate

On page 346 of the book Narrative of the Portuguese embassy to Abyssinia during the years 1520-1527 by Father Francisco Alvarez translated by Lord Stanley of Aldery it says:

^{"The Kingdom of Adel (as they say) is a large kingdom, and it extends over the Cape of Guardafuy, and there in that part another rules subject to Adel. Among the Moors they hold this King of Adel for a saint, because he always makes war upon the Christians; and he sends of the spoils of his battles (as they say) offerings to the house of Mekkah, and to Cairo, and presents to other kings, and they send him from their parts arms and horses, and other things to assist him in his wars; and I have before related, in Chapter cxxxiii, how this king was routed and his captain Mafudy killed. This kingdom of Adel borders upon the kingdom of Fatigar and Xoa, which are kingdoms of the Prester John".}

In the book The Ethiopian-Adal War 1529-1543, the author Jeffrey M. Shaw concludes that the king in question who makes war upon the Christians is Ahmed Gurey. In the same book, on page 52 he details an image of the Adal Sultanate along with other states in the Horn of Africa, dated to the year 1500 which is before the war and expansion. The borders are much farther to the east than the one currently shown and goes much deeper into Somali territory. The current map doesn't show the extent of the sultanate in 1540 which I believe it should like many of the other maps of kingdoms and sultanates on Wikipedia. Limegreencoral (talk) 06:17, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

References

@Limegreencoral Is your problem with just the eastern border? If so that can be easily fixed. Download inkscape and then download the map. Open the map in inkscape and make all the necessary changes you want. When your done click "Upload a new version of this file" and overwrite it. Richard Pankhurst only shows it to include parts of western Somaliland, infact I even extended the eastern border even further to include Berbera (which I believe was apart of the Adal Sultanate). محرر البوق (talk) 18:29, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I believe it should extend all the way to Cape Guardafui. I'll try to edit the map when I have time. Also if anyone requires additional sources, not including the one I provided earlier for the borders being larger, here they are.

1. The History and Description of Africa: And of the Notable Things Therein Contained by John Pory, Leo Africanus, and Robert Brown. p. 51-53: https://archive.org/details/historyanddescr03porygoog/page/n180/mode/2up?view=theater

2. Africa: being an accurate description of the regions of AEgypt, Barbary, Lybia, and Billedulgerid, the land of Negroes, Guinee, AEthiopia, and the Abyssines, with all the adjacent islands... Collected and translated from most authentick authors...by John Ogilby: https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo2/A70735.0001.001/1:8.8.11.9?rgn=div4;view=fulltext

3. The Oromo of Ethiopia: A History, 1570-1860. pg.35, pg.175: https://eprints.soas.ac.uk/29226/1/10731321.pdf Limegreencoral (talk) 20:39, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Stop edit warring

@Pruehito and @TriSolar don't enter into an edit war and instead use the talk page. You both have broken the 3RR rule with all the reverts so don't change the article again before discussing. Limegreencoral (talk) 23:35, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

@Pruehito I've just added a source that describes Somalis and Afars as being the majority. There are also other sources that may says something else. As @TriSolar said, there is no universal scholarly consensus on the matter, there may be different opinions. So I think you should leave the article alone. Limegreencoral (talk) 03:19, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

@Pruehito you can not just draw conclusions when there is no scholarly consensus. In the article there are sources that depict different opinions. Cease your editing please. Limegreencoral (talk) 01:38, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

I'd like to add my voice to this and ask Pruehito and TriSolar to stop edit warring and instead discuss here. To say that Somalis were "peripheral" without any evidence is a huge stretch. Please provide evidence here before making any further edits. محرر البوق (talk) 17:31, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Towns

@Limegreencoral, Zeila wasnt founded at the same time of Adal Sultanate, we arent going to add the history of towns on an article about Adal Sultanate. The reference makes no mention of Adal anyway hence its original research. The statement can be moved to Somali peoples or the relevant towns history section. The reference implies the towns existed during the Roman empire where trade existed between Somalis and Romans, Adal didnt exist during the Roman empire perhaps those towns did. This is therefore off topic when passages are cited they need to stay on the topic concerning the subject at hand. Magherbin (talk) 14:42, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

I didn't add that part of the article, but I see where you're coming from. Alright. Limegreencoral (talk) 15:25, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Capital

Dembiya was recently added as the capital of Adal Sultanate, this is inaccurate because the capital of the state is where the Sultan was located which was in Harar. Ahmed was not the sultan hence where he settled would not be the capital of Adal. Magherbin (talk) 05:52, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Leaving aside the fact that Umar Ad Din was mere figurehead. Imam Ahmed ordered all of the Adalite nobility including the Sultan to Ethiopia. Matan ibn Uthman (talk) 15:29, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Basing this off of what? The primary sources again? Most sources indicate that the capital was Harar city during this period. Who was administrating Adal areas if everyone was in Ethiopia? Who governed Harar for example? Dembya is a fringe viewpoint from only Hinika. Provide more sources as the established consensus of Adal's capital was Dakkar, Harar city and lasty Aussa. Magherbin (talk) 23:23, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

No Muhammad Hassen mentions in it his paper “the Oromo of Ethiopia” Matan ibn Uthman (talk) 00:01, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Im assuming you're referring to Hassen Ali and not Hinika however I looked through his paper (Oromo of Ethiopia), couldnt find it can you provide the page number+quote? Magherbin (talk) 00:20, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

My bad I got confused, but either Hassen Ali isn’t a credible source he routinely makes basic errors like calling wazir abbas the Imam’s uncle for instance, the Futuh takes presenten e over that Matan ibn Uthman (talk) 00:48, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Hence relying solely on WP:PRIMARY which isnt appropriate. Magherbin (talk) 01:10, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

No you need to find a source contradicting it I gave you Botha secondary and primary source Matan ibn Uthman (talk) 01:37, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm not the one quoting the futuh and referencing it for every edit. Do not use the Futuh as its a primary source and you've stated here its the legal authority in referencing Adal Sultanate content. Here is the quote "the Futuh takes presenten e over that" hence why you've been removing secondary sources after i've explained to you that ones own interpretation of primary sources is original research. The onus is on you to provide reference not me, if the introduction of new content is challenged. Do not bring up the primary source of futuh in discussion as its irrelevant. I'm waiting for secondary sources which you've not provided as I explained earlier only one secondary source isnt enough. Magherbin (talk) 01:49, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Oromo of Ethiopia is work litered with holes which is why the Futuh takes precedence over it but besides that I already showed you Hinika agreeing with me you need to prove it is a fringe view or that there are any opposing views at all Matan ibn Uthman (talk) 02:06, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

It seems you're unable to come up with references which is fine, this discussion should be over now since as you said I would just need to come up with one opposing view. See Héloïse Mercier p.46 "In 984 AH/1576, Imaˉm Muh·ammad b. Ibraˉhıˉm Jaˉsa took power in eastern Ethiopia. He abandoned Harar, which had been the Islamic centre of power of the region since the 1520s. He chose instead to settle in “the land of Awsa” [28] Magherbin (talk) 02:50, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

This is talking about Ibrahim Gasa who was 1577. I never denied that Harar was the capital in 1577. Again come up with another source since I posted 2. Matan ibn Uthman (talk) 02:53, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

No you've only posted 1 source and let me explain what "Islamic power of the region since the 1520s" means it means there was no other capital between 1520-1576 or 1577. Magherbin (talk) 02:59, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

The Futuh is a source Matan ibn Uthman (talk) 03:02, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

That’s SYNTH Matan ibn Uthman (talk) 03:03, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Other source: “Later on, the center shifted to Dembiya, near Lake Tana. From this center, the Imam ruled the empire until his defeat and death in 1543”

https://www.dandiiboru.net/resources/high%20school/SECOND%20HANDOUTS%20GRADE%209-12/Grade%2011/History%20Grade%2011%20HO.pdf Matan ibn Uthman (talk) 03:04, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Highschool papers are not reliable secondly im aware that Imam had a base in Dembiya, he needed a base somewhere for his operations during the invasion. Magherbin (talk) 03:11, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

And ‘The Oromo of Ethiopia’ which states Wazir abbas was the Imam’s uncles is. LMAO plus it says the Imam ruled from dembiya Matan ibn Uthman (talk) 03:31, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

The administrative and political center of Adal was always in Harar during the war. On page 51 of History of Ethiopian Towns from the Middle Ages to the Early Nineteenth Century by Richard Pankhurst, he still describes Harar as being the political center of the Adal Sultanate, as the nominal rulers of Adal were still based in that city. Socialwave597 (talk) 22:02, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Could you send a quote from the book? Do you understand what a nominal ruler is post 1527 the sultan didn’t have any administrative capabilities and didn’t rule the country. The Imam’s base was in Dembiya this is inarguable. Frederick Edwards mentions how the Sultan Umar Ad Din seethed in Ethiopia. Matan ibn Uthman (talk) 02:47, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

On page 50 and 51 of the book here is what he says

After a "short stay" in his capital in 1528 he began preparations for a second expedition (...) Having thus imposed his will on the nominal rulers Gran embarked on another expedition, this time to Bali, after which he remained two months in the capital, before setting forth on further conquests which were to take him across the entire length and breath of the Ethiopian Empire.

Secondly what source explicitly says that Dembiya was the capital of the Adal Sultanate? Because none of your secondary citations are accessible and you provided no quotes so far. This looks like a textbook example of WP:OR to me. Socialwave597 (talk) 03:43, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

That’s in 1528 if you saw my edit you would see that I said Dembiya became the capital in 1535.

Here is the statement in the Futuh Al habesha

“Then the imam set off from Wagara for the region of Dambya which he entered. It is a country with an abundance of resources and without an equal in Abyssinia: never having known drought.

He organized it, and chose it for his residence. He utterly pacified it, and its inhabitants remained on as peasant farmers for the Muslims. The imam built mosques and divided the tenitory amongst all the Muslims, down to each of the knights.”

pg. 380

Frederick Edwards Article

“The Imam next proceeded to Dembea,a delectable province on the shores of the lake which never suffered from drought, produced horses as great as oxen, and which had a gold market. Ahmed chose this for his residence, built mosques there,and divided the province among his

companions,and the Mussulmans enjoyed repose whilst the inhabitants cultivated the land for them.”

Pg. 354

Link:https://books.google.com/books?id=UxgoAAAAYAAJ&dq=Battle+of+Antukyah&pg=PA335#v=onepage&q=Battle%20of%20Antukyah&f=false

Hinika article

“As a result of this conquest, he brought three quarters of Ethiopia under Muslim administration and established his head quarter at Dembiya”

Pg. 3

Link:https://eajsh.haramayajournals.org/index.php/eajsh/article/view/475/335 Matan ibn Uthman (talk) 04:20, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

@Matan ibn Uthman It says that it was the residence/headquarters of Imam Ahmad al-Ghazi, not the political capital of Adal. Which the sources exclusively state was still at Harar; "Harar was the capital of the Muslim state for 57 years from 1520 to 1577" (p. 207, Mohammed Hassen)[29], "he appointed the Walsama family as his puppet sultan and made Harar the centre of his various campaigns".(Encyclopaedia Aethiopica: D-Ha, pg. 355–60)

Imam Ahmed was the military leader of the Adal Sultanate, not the de jure ruler, which continued to be the Walsama based in Harar, therefore his headquarters cannot be classified as the administrative capital of the Adal sultanate without sources explicitly stating so. I don't want to engage in some kind of edit war with you and get us both blocked from editing, so I would kindly ask you to please revert your edit. Socialwave597 (talk) 07:31, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Siyaro as the capital

Dakar wasn’t the capital in the early years of Sabr Ad din’s reign that was Siyaro Al Maqrizi mentions that the 10 brothers landed in Siyaro first and Ba’lawi manuscript mentions it as their base Matan ibn Uthman (talk) 01:33, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Magherbin@Socialwave597 Matan ibn Uthman (talk) 01:34, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Why are you pinging me? Did I revert your edit? You make the edit and if people disagree then you start a discussion. Magherbin (talk) 01:48, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

@Matan ibn Uthman Is this confirmed by any secondary source? Socialwave597 (talk) 21:52, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

I've listed 13 sources above [30] that the capital was the Harar plateau, the center of power was actually established by his uncle Haqq ad-Din II, this is why Sabr Ad din returned to that specific location. Editors continue to bring this up though and i'm abit tired of this discussion. The viewpoint that Adal was somesort of Somaliland entity has been debunked by recent archaeologists. Magherbin (talk) 22:00, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Bil and Karam

Al-Umari mentioning the seasons of Bil and Karam are Ethio-Semetic words. The first month of the Ethiopian calander is called Maskaram and Karam/kirmi signify summer rains. Belg is a winter season in Ethiopia. Somalis don't use Bil and Karam, the source linked makes some poor connection between bil, and for karam, that is only found in the North. It is just factually incorrect so it had to be removed. GetRektLLLLL (talk) 05:24, 10 February 2024 (UTC)