Talk:Guy Fawkes/Archive 8

Archive 5

Archive 6

Archive 7

Archive 8

Popular culture

I've removed this material from the article because I believe it's all trivia and has no place here: Im sorry, but it does have a place here. There is a referenced in pop culture in far more serious rticles. im just amazed at how graphic this article is. there isn't a single reference to torture in the entire section on the 600 yrs of the inquisition. isn't that a bit unbalanced? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.148.192 (talk) 16:06, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

• 1847: Charlotte Brontë - Jane Eyre, Jane is compared to Guy Fawkes by Abbot with the line "a sort of infantine Guy Fawkes" because she looked as though she was constantly plotting schemes. Brontë herself, like Fawkes, was of Yorkshire origins.
• 1850: Charles Dickens - David Copperfield, in order for Peggotty to find money for Saturday's expenses, she "had to prepare a long and elaborate scheme, a very Gunpowder Plot...", directly referencing the Plot Fawkes was involved with.
• 1885: W.S. Gilbert - The Mikado, in his Act I song, "As some day it may happen", Ko-Ko, the Lord High Executioner, lists those he would prefer to see executed, including "the lady from the provinces, who dresses like a guy", referring to the effigies created for Guy Fawkes Night
• 1886: Herman Melville - Billy Budd, the novella mentions Fawkes in the passage "The Pharisee is the Guy Fawkes prowling in the hid chambers underlying the Claggarts".
• 1925: T. S. Eliot - The Hollow Men, the epigraph of the poem directly alludes to Fawkes, "A penny for the Old Guy".
• 1953: Ray Bradbury - Fahrenheit 451, the protagonist of the novel is named Guy Montag directly after Guy Fawkes. In the story, firemen burn houses with books in them to keep people from learning, and Guy rebels against this system.
• 1982: Alan Moore - V for Vendetta, the dystopian graphic novel of a fascist Britain takes influence from the story of Fawkes. The story revolves around the main character, V, who wears a stylised Guy Fawkes mask.
• 1997: J. K. Rowling - Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets, Dumbledore's phoenix is named Fawkes, after the man.
• 2005: Christie Dickason - The Firemaster's Mistress,Historical fiction about the Gunpowder plot
• 2008: A Super Mutant in the video game Fallout 3 is named Fawkes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fawkes-nvmbr5th (talk • contribs) 05:58, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

--Malleus Fatuorum 14:35, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Big improvement—thanks.--Old Moonraker (talk) 14:51, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Most of the above are, of course, passing mentiona that are not particularly significant within the works themselves, and yet I can't help but feel that the dogged refusal by certain editors to include any mention of V for Vendetta on this page amounts to nothing more than intellectual snobbery. The story and iconography of Fawkes is an inextricable part of the entire narrative of the comic book and the film. Why the resistance? Nick Cooper (talk) 20:28, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Because its relevance is to the comic book and the film, not to Guy Fawkes. --Malleus Fatuorum 20:49, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

One could say the same thing about the Guy Fawkes River and the Guy Fawkes River National Park, which are so much more well-known than V for Vendetta. Not. Like I said, this is nothing more than intellectual snobbery. Nick Cooper (talk) 21:07, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, you could apparently. There is a clear difference between geographical features named after Guy Fawkes and some fictional character who for whatever reason wears a "stylised" Guy Fawkes mask. You call it intellectual snobbery, I call it intellectual integrity. --Malleus Fatuorum 01:48, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

I think that there's a deep misunderstanding about how links ought to work on wikipedia, and your comments demonstrate that very nicely. Links do not need to be symmetrical; because the V article points here doesn't mean that this one ought to point back. --Malleus Fatuorum 01:53, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

The fact that you feel a need to play down the connection to 'just the mask' speaks volumes. V for Vendetta is the most significant and global manifestation of the iconography and story of Fawkes in popular culture in the last few years, but obviously the history snobs don't like anything as vulgar as that. Pathetic. Nick Cooper (talk) 13:32, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

This is an article about Guy Fawkes, not some comic book character. So the question you ought to be asking yourself is this: "What light does the fact that a comic book character wore a mask based on Guy Fawkes shed on Guy Fawkes or his legacy?" To which the answer is clearly "nothing". That you're unable to understand that is what's pathetic. --Malleus Fatuorum 14:21, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Just chiming in with a reply to "What light does the fact that a comic book character wore a mask based on Guy Fawkes shed on Guy Fawkes or his legacy?". I have not read the comic, but I have seen the movie. The mask is in no way the only reference to Guy Fawkes. The story involves blowing up parliament, the "Remember remember the 5th of November" poem is read verbatim, amongst many references. Personally, not being from the UK, I didn't even know about Guy Fawkes before watching 'V for Vendetta'. 193.11.222.243 (talk) 19:32, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Then V for Vendetta led you to Guy Fawkes, which is the right way round. Links do not need to be symmetrical. An argument could perhaps be made for including a reference to V for Vendetta in the Gunpowder Plot article though, for instance. --Malleus Fatuorum 19:44, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

With all due respect to everyone, I think the popular culture sections of many articles are as interesting as the story itself. It usually makes me feel compelled enough to see or read the work mentioned and compare it to the real story, and it also makes the point of how many people find history interesting enough to incorporate it in their fiction. It is part of knowledge too. As I was reading this article (linked from the Tower of London) immediately thought of V for Vendetta and looked at the discussion because surely there must have been a Popular Culture section. Of course, here it is removed. Too bad. I wish someone puts it back (I'm not going to because I don't want to get in the middle of people who obviously feel too strong about it, I wonder why). I just want to give my support to those who wish to re-insert it. 65.101.147.185 (talk) 22:52, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

With all due respect to you, I think that the popular culture sections should be removed from every article, as they're just another name for trivia. What does a rather unremarkable film tell us about Guy Fawkes? You did notice this was an article about Guy Fawkes, right? --Malleus Fatuorum 23:20, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

There should be a section or several sentences, that say something like "Guy Fawkes' impact, the most notorious plotters, on popular culture can be seen in the large number of fictional allusions to him and works inspired by his plotting, including the recently popular V for Vendetta." That is definitely part of his legacy, though I agree there should not be a list of trivia. Sadads (talk) 23:18, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually what it says is that lists of trivia are discouraged but that pertinent sourced facts should be incorporated into the body of the article, not just thrown out. Your use of terms like 'rather unremarkable film' show a certain point of view which should not translate into article content without a source. What the film and comic series tell us is that the story of Guy Fawkes still has enough impact to form a part of popular culture. In the legacy section that information is relevant and necessary. Removing it is to the articles detriment. Weakopedia (talk) 06:48, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Guy Fawkes Mask

Although I don't want to embroil this article with Anonymous/V for Vendetta/etc, shouldn't there be a discussion of the Guy Fawkes Mask? To my knowledge it was a well-established mask long, long before the movie. (For example, in 1965, the comic book 'buster' featured the mask as a free gift). I came to the article genuinely curious to the history of how the mask tradition began, and was perplexed by its total absence.

It seems that in an effort to reduce the trivial discussion of those issues, any mention of the mask was expunged entirely.

Particularly, 'Guy Fawkes Mask' redirects to this article, which no longer even contains the word 'mask.'

Tofof (talk) 21:39, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

If the Guy Fawkes mask is notable then feel free to create an article about it. This is an article about Guy Fawkes. --Malleus Fatuorum 21:41, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Absurd. Either the mask is not notable (a tenable proposition) or it belongs with the article of the person it is associated with. 98.117.211.87 (talk) 23:25, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

I redirected it to V for Vandetta. --AdamSims1991 (talk) 00:01, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

It's back. Just checking that the consensus is still to leave it out, before taking any any action. --Old Moonraker (talk) 18:26, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

There should at least be a reference to V for Vendetta, as it refers to Guy Fawkes both in the comic and the film. --Beao 18:47, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

The comic and the movie both had a lot of references to Fawkes, and the Gunpowder plot, so there should be at least some kind of mention... I see no problem with the small mention made in the legacy section as it is right now. Except for the additional line about Project Chanology, as this really has nothing to do with Fawkes himself, it is a well written addition that does not overpower the rest of the article... - Adolphus79 (talk) 18:57, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

I have removed it again as unreferenced and no consensus to include. Keith D (talk) 19:56, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

I can't see how V for Vendetta is not part of the legacy of Guy Fawkes. It is a very notable link between the two, and both the V for Vendetta and Chanology articles refer to Guy Fawkes. --Beao 20:44, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

What about a new section, like this:

==Portrayal in popular culture==

V for Vendetta is a comic book series whos main protagonist, "V", is wearing a black-and-white Guy Fawkes mask. The character came into mainstream popularity after the film adaption, and thereafter it became the mascot of the anti-Scientology advocacy group Project Chanology.

--Beao 20:51, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

What reliable references are you going to use then for such an insertion? Keith D (talk) 21:02, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

A fast search gave me these, I guess there are more:

• [1]
• [2]

--Beao 21:23, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Can I add this section? I'm sure there are many people reading this article wondering if it is the man from V for Vendetta. --Beao 13:55, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Then they should be reading the V for Vendetta article. Popular culture sections are trivia magnets, and I'd strongly oppose introducing one.--Malleus Fatuorum 14:09, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Well it seems like nobody's with me on this, and I honestly think that's strange. He is a historic person and that have been reflected in popular culture. How is that not notable? --Beao 14:47, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

It's important that V for Vendetta links here, of course, but that doesn't necessarily mean that this article should link to there. Should there also be a link to Moby Dick? Fahrenheit 451? The question that needs to be answered, I think, is what insights into Fawkes' life, character, or legacy do we gain from learning that a comic book character wore a mask some claim to resemble Guy Fawkes—remember that nobody knows what Guy Fawkes looked like anyway. --Malleus Fatuorum 15:01, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

The plot for V for Vendetta is also blowing up Parliment on November 5th, and throughout the movie the other characters call is a Guy Fawkes mask... I wouldn't want to add a popular culture section, but as I said above, one line in the legacy section that reads along the lines of "In the comic book V for Vendetta, as well as the film adaption, the main protagonist wears a Guy Fawkes mask, and intends to blow up Parliment on November 5."... Nothing to make the mask notable, nothing to link to Anonymous/Project Chonology deciding the mask was cool... just the fact that the comic and movie purposely made references, and was strongly based, on Fawkes and the Gunpowder plot... - Adolphus79 (talk) 16:40, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

If there's nothing to make the mask notable, it doesn't deserve mention. Besides which, V for Vendetta doesn't really allude to the reasons why Fawkes was part of the plot to blow up the king, and his parliament. Parrot of Doom 19:44, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm not saying we mention the mask, other than the fact that the main character wore one, what I'm saying is that we mention "V for Vendetta" due to the references to Guy Fawkes within... - Adolphus79 (talk) 21:30, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

And I'm saying that Guy Fawkes never mentioned V for Vendetta, and that V for Vendetta is a somewhat unremarkable film that is very loosely based on the Gunpowder Plot. Can you imagine someone like Simon Schama rounding off a programme about Guy Fawkes, by wearing a V for Vendetta mask? No, neither can I. V for Vendetta isn't relevant to Guy Fawkes. Parrot of Doom 23:31, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Origin of the name Guy

It seems to me that Guy Fawkes cannot be the origin of the term 'guy' if Guy of Guisborn's legend predates him by a few decades. Thoughts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.40.80.150 (talk) 07:22, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Dictionary says it's from Guy Fawkes, although you do make an interesting point about a similarly reviled character. Guy is French for Will right? It's not that Guy Fawkes is the origin of the word or even brought it to common knowledge, just that the use of "guy" in the modern sense stems from him. I trust the dictionaries. That's certainly all we have to go on unless you have some reference otherwise. Fixentries (talk) 21:08, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Guy fawkes- the face of Anonymous?

Is it true that anyone who wears a Guy Fawkes mask is a member of anonymous? (Hmstrrnnr (talk) 16:15, 26 October 2009 (UTC))

No. I bought my mask long before those tools did. Vael Victus 16:57, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Maastricht

I recall from radio discussions about the time of the signing of the Maastricht Treaty that Fawkes was supposed to havw spent some time there - in Maastricht. 81.102.15.200 (talk) 12:31, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

The execution

"Fawkes, weakened by his torture, was the last to climb the ladder to the gallows, from which he jumped, breaking his neck in the fall and thus avoiding the latter part of his execution." -- I have seen several versions of his last moments; that he jumped, or fell because of exhaustion, or neither. If he did 'escape' the final punishment, it ought to have been well documented in period sources. I haven't found any primary sources mentioned on the web, will take a look in Northcote Parkinson. Hexmaster (talk) 13:17, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

It's already attributed to Northcote Parkinson. If you look at the account of Fawkes's death in Gunpowder Plot you'll see that Fraser tells the same story. --Malleus Fatuorum 13:48, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Status: Ensign

¿What exactly is/was an “Ensign” as used here? The link in the article is to the militry rank, and serves no purpose; Perhaps a new page is in order… 174.25.99.225 (talk) 16:22, 4 January 2010 (UTC)A REDDSON

I don't understand

I don't understand why someone would refuse to edit in something obviously related to and inspired by Guy Fawkes (V from V for Vendetta). Do you have a personal grudge (vendetta herpderp) against the movie or are you just being an ass? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Luzit (talk • contribs) 01:53, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Maria Pulleyn

The article doesn't mention the rumour that he had a wife by the name of Maria or Mary Pulleyn, who was born in May 1569. Antonia Fraser, in her book Faith and Treason, dismisses this as being highly unlikely as there were virtually no references to his having been a married man in any contemporary records; however, what do the other editors think about putting the allegation into the article?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:04, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. --Malleus Fatuorum 13:54, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I added it. I don't think we should give undue weight to the rumour; however, I felt it should be mentioned. How does it look?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:12, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Infobox needs correction

In the article it states that Fawkes was meant to have been hanged, drawn, and quartered; however, he jumped from the gallows and avoided the latter part of the sentence by having broken his neck. The infobox says that he was hanged, drawn, and quartered. Shouldn't it read that he died as the result of a broken neck? --Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:18, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

He certainly wasn't drawn and quartered, but I have the impression that he killed himself by jumping from the gallows with the rope around his neck, thus effectively hanging himself, like Keyes unsuccessfully attempted to do. BTW, do you have a page number for Antonia Fraser in Faith and Treason for the comment about Fawkes's possible marriage? --Malleus Fatuorum 15:28, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Ok, then the box could just say died by hanging, as the result is the same:death by a broken neck. No, I don't have the page number. I got it from Herber's The Gunpowder Plot Society.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:34, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I think death by hanging's best. On a somewhat macabre note, calculating the correct length of rope to break the victim's neck without yanking the head completely off was a skill that not all hangmen possessed. William Calcraft, for instance, one of the best known executioners of the 19th century, was notoriously incompetent at his job, and often had to rush below the gallows and pull on the legs of his victims to finish them off. He was prevented from doing that on one occasion by a priest, and the man took 45 minutes to be strangled to death by the rope. But I digress. --Malleus Fatuorum 15:44, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

On the same macabre note, what I find puzzling is how did the executioner calculate at which point the hanged prisoner should be cut down, while not quite dead, so he could be revived then drawn and quartered?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:58, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Guy Fawkes and V for Vendetta

All mentions of the graphic novel (and corresponding film) V for Vendetta have been repeatedly removed from the article for the historical figure Guy Fawkes. Should the article on the real-life Guy Fawkes mention the fact that his story is the inspiration for the graphic novel, meaning it should be included as an important aspect of his legacy? Or does the mention of V for Vendetta damage the intellectual integrity of the Guy Fawkes article, meaning the mention of the graphic novel will not provide any substantive insights into Fawkes' life, character, or legacy? ColorOfSuffering (talk) 21:41, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

So far as I can tell there has only been one editor who has objected to the several other editors who favoured the inclusion of this material. The RFC has produced no dissenting view to challenge the consensus that has been established to include mention of the film V for Vendetta. Unless there are comments from other editors that can challenge the consensus I will be adding the information about the film to the legacy section. Weakopedia (talk) 11:17, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

There has been on convincing argument for inclusion. That Guy Fawkes inspired V for Vendetta is hardly worth mentioning in this article. By all means, the inspiration should be included in the article on V for Vendetta, but why here? Nev1 (talk) 11:32, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

I think that it is fine to mention that it inspired V for vendetta, but you should be careful not to go beyond WP:UNDUE, a sentence or two in the legacy section with a single wikilink would be fine though surely?Ajbpearce (talk) 11:55, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

I think that also - the intricacies of the film are not relevant to this article, only the mention of it as part of the legacy. The other statements in the second paragraph of the legacy section all have but a short sentance and the film deserves no more, but it deserves that much. The connection to Guy Fawkes is discussed in many sources, and if nothing else it shows that the story of Guy Fawkes still has impact today. Weakopedia (talk) 12:34, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

• Comment (from RFC): I think it is important to include that the movie V for Vendetta was inspired by this person. In the article we have songs inspired by the character, as well as places named after him. It is important to show how this person lives on in the public consciousness, even if that particular movie didn't do a great job of representing Guy Fawkes, or if the particular representation is not very flattering. However, I do agree that any mention of the movie should be brief, and the movie should in no way be considered a reliable source for any facts presented in the article. Brad 17:30, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
• As another outside editor, I would find it very odd, if not intentionally misleading, not to mention the connection; the relationship between this historical personage & the graphic novel & film are undeniable, & insisting that a source be first provided is tendentious wikilawyering. As others have mentioned, all that is needed is a sentence or two with a link to the other articles. As for the objection that "X in popular culture" sections are cruft magnets, that is beside the point; every section in every article is a potential cruft magnet, which prevented by Wikipedia editors regularly reviewing articles, not by insisting problematic yet potentially useful sections be removed. -- llywrch (talk) 16:23, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

• if they're "undeniable", then let's see the case made. The mask in truth bears no resemblance to any known portrait of Guy Fawkes, so could be anybody really. Fawkes was deliberately chosen for his role because he'd been out of the country for so long that he wouldn't be recognised anyway. I have a very simple rule for this "X in popular culture" issue, well, two really. The first is that they're trivia magnets, but following on from that, if there's something significant about a pop culture reference, shedding light on the topic being described, rather than the pop culture reference, then it ought to be possible to integrate the material into the article body. Take a look at how a 2003 novel is here integrated with the story of an early 20th-century hoax, for instance.[3] Malleus Fatuorum 22:46, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

• (Sorry for the delay in responding; my time has been spent over the last few days in yardwork outside the house.) Well M. Fatuorum, you must be the only person who doesn't see the resemblance between the historical personage & V's mask (FWIW, I found the mustache & van dyke beard of the mask to be very similar to Fawkes' reported appearance): the resemblance between the two is repeated in both of the articles on "V for Vendetta" -- the graphic novel & the film -- without any need for a citation. And I expect, were a citation demanded for this assertion, published sources exist showing that Alan Moore explicitly intended that V wear a Guy Fawkes mask. Further, there is the fact in both fictional works V blows up the Parliament building on 5 November -- the same date Fawkes attempted to; this connection is emphasized at the beginning of the movie where the popular rhyme "Remember, remember the fifth of November" -- alluding to Fawkes' destructive plot -- is repeated. Whether Moore's use of this connection correctly embraces the popular meaning of this event is irrelevant here -- & any discussion should be properly placed in another article. What is relevant is that the connection is explicitly made -- which can be pointed out in a sentence or two. If you think that such a detail is better presented in the text, rather than as an item in a bullet point list, then please rewrite the article to include this relevant detail. -- llywrch (talk) 22:36, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

• The verifiable facts are that they invented a mask to look like what they imagined Guy Fawkes looked like, and that nobody knows what he really looked like. The film has nothing at all to do with Guy Fawkes. In fact, a very good case has been made for the main character in V for Vendetta being based on Oscar Wilde, who was also fond of masks. V also blows up the Old Bailey, which Fawkes obviously never did. So the question remains; what does including an account of a mask bearing no resemblance to the real Guy Fawkes (despite your mistaken belief that it does) tell us about Guy Fawkes? Would you similarly insist that the bat article contained a reference to Batman? Malleus Fatuorum 23:11, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

• With all due respect, Malleus Fatuorum, you are being unhelpful & intentionally obtuse to the point of being disruptive. Your responses are nothing more than hand-waving, tendentious denials, & point-splitting. Your allusion to Oscar Wilde implies that you are well acquainted with Uncyclopedia, & suggests your comments should be taken not as logical responses but empty sarcasm. I came to this as an objective third party, who based his opinions on actually seeing the movie -- & I saw the connection without a second thought. I sincerely can't imagine why a sentence or two on this connection -- which is all anyone expects to insert here -- would so offend you. Especially since this commentator, who has done research on the graphic novel, accepts the allusion to Guy Fawkes without question. Further, a Google query returns at least 50 hits where the mask in question is accepted as being of Guy Fawkes, where another Google query fails to identify one person sharing your opinion about the mask. And finally, you still refuse to acknowledge the relevance of the opening lines of the movie, "Remember, remember, the Fifth of November, the Gunpowder Treason and Plot. I know of no reason why the Gunpowder Treason should ever be forgot." We have now the point where anyone who is not a crank or a troll & cares about Wikipedia would concede the point, knowing full well that persistence can lead to sanctions including an indefinite ban from Wikipedia. The next step, & responsibility for what happens, is yours alone. -- llywrch (talk) 22:02, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

• I would suggest that you refrain from making your vague threats, as I have not the slightest interest in them. I will listen to any rational argument you have to make, if and when you can manage to put one together. Malleus Fatuorum 04:06, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
• PS. If you persist in your campaign of ignorant abuse then it will be you who has to face the consequences, not me. Malleus Fatuorum 04:10, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

• WP:AN/I is that-a-way; you are welcome to complain, although I suspect the results may not be what you expect. Had you not been an established Wikipedian, you would have been blocked for trolling -- not warned for your unhelpful responses here. And calling people "ignorant" is as much a personal attack as calling someone an "arrogant jack-ass". -- llywrch (talk) 16:02, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

• You are an absolute disgrace Llywrch, as well as being ignorant. Malleus Fatuorum 16:16, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

• Please tone it down and keep this talkpage limited to article improvement. --Morenooso (talk) 16:19, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
  • That will perhaps be easier when a certain administrator stops trying to throw his weight around. Malleus Fatuorum 16:21, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
    • Then please stop making personal attacks at me & denying the obvious connection here. As shown in the paper you pointed me to, where David Lloyd, one of the creators of the graphic novel, is quoted:

Why don’t we portray him as a resurrected Guy Fawkes, complete with one of those papier-mâché masks, in a cape and a conical hat? He’d look really bizarre and it would give Guy Fawkes the image he’s deserved all these years. We shouldn’t burn the chap every Nov. 5th but celebrate his attempt to blow up Parliament!

— David Lloyd, Painted Smile, p. 272

Why Malleus Fatuorum so vehemently denies the connection to the point of being treated as if a troll or kook baffles me. I believe a sentence or two along the lines that "The character V in the graphic novel and movie V for Vendetta adopted several characteristics of Guy Fawkes" is relevant, & does not violate WP:UNDUE." Simple as that, & all I have suggested be done. I have nothing more to say here, so I'll move on -- even if Malleus Fatuorum can't. -- llywrch (talk) 17:00, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

online article that also includes this quote: "Behind The Painted Smile" Essay by Alan Moore (On the Creation of "V for vendetta"). --Enric Naval (talk) 17:31, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

• I think a sentence or two is permissible, with a link to the main article which should cover the subject in detail. Anything beyond that is getting out of scope and trivial.

ThemFromSpace 08:48, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand this dispute. Clearly there is a lot to be said about the legacy of Guy Fawkes and how he is remembered by popular culture, so it seems to me a no-brainer that a subarticle dealing with that subject should exist (I'm quite surprised one doesn't exist already). I doubt that V for Vendetta is sufficiently notable for mention in the Guy Fawkes article, but it would entirely appropriate for mention in a subarticle. Everyking (talk) 03:31, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Quite. So someone should write that article, instead of repeatedly inserting irrelevant trivia in this one. Malleus Fatuorum 04:01, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

My thanks to Malleus Fatuorum for providing clinching proof that V for Vendetta does make use of Guy Fawkes. In [ this paper] which M. Fatuorum pointed me to,

Why do you persist in missing the point? V for Vendetta is not about Guy Fawkes; you could make a stronger case for it being about The Gunpowder Plot. The issue being discussed here is whether the fact that the main character wears a mask designed as a caricature of what many believe Fawkes to have looked like is worthy of inclusion in this article. Can we please stick to that question without any more willy waving from you? Malleus Fatuorum 17:55, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

• Not this old chestnut. V for Vendetta is a great film, but it doesn't really have much to do with Guy Fawkes other than a few vague references to blowing things up, and it really doesn't deserve a mention here. People forget that Fawkes was a bit-part in a much larger conspiracy, something the film makes no attempt to clarify. The mask, by the way, is speculative. Nobody knows what Guy Fawkes looked like. Parrot of Doom 19:28, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

• we know from Alan Moore's statement that the graphic novel V was partially based on at least a popular image Guy Fawkes although there were significant elements of an earlier character. The film is nominally based on the graphic novel. In the graphic novel V does start by blowing up parliament. The blowing up of the old bailey happens latter and is mostly there as a convent full stop to V's speech in defence of anarchy.©Geni 02:19, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

• I really don't see the relevance of V for Vendetta to this article. If it was discussed in decent reliable sources about Fawkes then it should be included but otherwise it shouldn't. Quantpole (talk) 08:18, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

• Support There are numerous scholarly sources which discuss the Guy Fawkes imagery and references within V for Vendetta. Guy Fawkes masks predate this novel/movie, being commonly sold so that children could beg a penny for the guy and so it seems easy to work this into the Legacy section. We should also link to our article on the Guido Fawkes (blogger) whose attacks on Parliament and politicians have been quite effective and influential. Such cross links inform and help our readership, which is what we are here for. Colonel Warden (talk) 14:15, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Abstract: V for Vendetta' (James McTeigue, 2005), based on Alan Moore and David Lloyd's graphic novel of the same name, opens with a meditation on the relationship between the political and the personal. It is 5 November 1605 and Guy Fawkes is creeping ... Davidson, Rjurik. "Vagaries and Violence in 'V for Vendetta'" [online]. Screen Education (related to Screen (journal), No. 46, 2007: 157-162.

V for Vendetta has been directly criticised for its open approval of symbolic terrorism, and it would be unwise for the film-makers to dispute this charge. It could hardly be clearer. The main protagonist – known as 'V' (Hugo Weaving) – adopts the guise of Guy Fawkes and blows ... Douglas Bulloch, "V is for Vendetta: P is for Power A film reading of V for Vendetta", Millennium - Journal of International Studies, Vol. 35, No. 2, 431-434 (2007)

In the end it is not Fawkes blowing up of the Houses of Parliament which brings about change; it is the strength of public opinion, as expressed by a mass march, in defiance of the Chancellor, by people wearing Guy Fawkes masks (V for Vendetta Warner Bros. 2006). ... Fergal Davis (lecturer in law) "Extra-Constitutionalism, the Human Rights Act and the ‘Labour Rebels’: applying Prof Tushnet’s theories in the UK" Web Journal of Current Legal Issues

Without the Bowie/Price infusion carried forward from ‘The Doll’, the image of an anti-hero in mask, cape and conical hat might read fairly straightforwardly as a Fawkes reference. But with this dandified, decadent addition, the V that emerged first in the series and later in the film version of Vendetta also reads as a futuristic visual citation of Napoleon Sarony’s 1882 portraits of the twenty-eight-year-old Oscar Wilde, dressed in his signature ‘aesthetical’ costume of his early career, with the addition of a stylised mask that cites and makes literal the cornerstone of Wilde’s critical and aesthetic philosophies: “Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give a man a mask, and he will tell you the truth” (Wilde 2007: 185). And by recuperating a pre-modernist understanding of Wilde as societal threat and potent anti-hero, Vendetta was poised to give Wilde, like Fawkes, “the image he’s deserved all these years”. [4] Ellen Crowell "Scarlet Carsons, Men in Masks: The Wildean Contexts of V for Vendetta" Journal of Neo-Victorian Studies 2:1 (Winter 2008/2009)

The theme has been treated in quite a few scholar sources. I see a good bunch of essays and articles written by professors in several disciplines, like this law teacher "Masked with the face of Guy Fawkes ...". (The last quotation also says that there is influence from Oscar Wilde's cape). --Enric Naval (talk) 18:06, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

• There is one simple question that remains unanswered though; what do any of these sources tell us about Guy Fawkes, as opposed to V for Vendetta? The answer, of course, is nothing. Malleus Fatuorum 18:42, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

• I think the way forward, as suggested above and done in a number of other articles, is to create a separate article Guy Fawkes in popular culture to cover this and other references to Guy Fawkes. This article can then just have a link to the new article. This way this article remains about Guy Fawkes and does not get cluttered with lists of popular culture references to the name which have little if any relevance to the actual Guy Fawkes apart from the name. Keith D (talk) 15:59, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
  • In an effort to break this log jam, I have created Guy Fawkes in popular culture, and copied over the last V for Vendetta entry from this article. As you say Keith, this solution seems to have worked well for other articles, like Adolf Hitler in popular culture. Malleus Fatuorum 16:55, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

• (Disclaimer: I spotted this RfC in a Wikipedia Review thread) Support inclusion, either here or in a subarticle. I notice the "in popular culture" subarticle violates WP:SUMMARY because the main article has absolutely no summary of what the subarticle contains; I have now added a very short summary. Also, please, wtf, that subarticle only has one entry? Please find examples of "in popular culture" entries to fill it up, or merge it back into the main article until you find some. No problem with keeping the subarticle if it actually becomes a real article on its own. The subarticle has three entries now, I guess it can be expanded further into a real subarticle. --Enric Naval (talk) 17:31, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
  • Feel free to expand it yourself, and when you're done, then a short summary in this article would indeed be appropriate. Malleus Fatuorum 17:59, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Malleus, read up - consensus is against you deleting all reference to V from this article. Creating a separate article was also not such a great idea - it isn't likely to be expanded to the point of being a good article. I will be proposing that it be merged back into this article, but regardless of that, consensus has shown that this article should mention V and that is what it should do. Please do not continue to work against the established consensus to force what seems to be an unusual and unwarranted view of biographies on Wikipedia. And while you are at at it, I suggest you strike through your exceedingly rude comments above - you are displaying all the signs of article ownership and your attitude is likely to get you reported if you continue. Weakopedia (talk) 08:45, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

What consensus is that then? Quantpole (talk) 08:56, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

The sub-article is not just for discussing the V references but all references to Guy Fawkes in popular culture, there are a number of entries, see above section, for possible inclusion in such an article. Keith D (talk) 09:22, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

It's almost certainly true Weakopedia, that if left to your tender care then nothing would ever get to GA, but I believe I know what I'm doing. It's consistent with what's been done with other articles, like Adolf Hitler. I'll do you a favour though, and ignore your threats; I don't want to scorch your display by telling you what I really think about your ignorant behaviour. Malleus Fatuorum 00:03, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I find this whole thing a bit bizarre. If V for Vendetta is mentioned in sources (books, scholarly articles etc) specifically regarding Guy Fawkes, then we reflect that in the article. However, the only references linking the two are ones specifically about the film/graphic novel, therefore it is logical to discuss it in the film/graphic novel but it does not seem relevant to discuss it here. Our articles are supposed to reflect how reliable sources discuss the topic. Quantpole (talk) 09:03, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

I reluctantly have to agree with you. I suppose, this could be solved by finding a Guy Fawkes source that talks about V for Vendetta. Or a source about V for Vendetta that explains how the film changed Guy Fawkes' perception in the general public (it's a bit more far-fetched, but it could be found). --Enric Naval (talk) 10:05, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Reverts on 2010-04-26

Three editors have WP:CONSENSUS that today's edit to place a mask protess is a trivial mention that does not warrant being included in this article. Its addition is not necessary for full comprehension of who the subject was. --Morenooso (talk) 19:47, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Deletions 2010-05-05

Please get WP:CONSENSUS before deleting citations. --Morenooso (talk) 23:42, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Citations have to be relevant, they are not inviolable. Malleus Fatuorum 23:49, 5 May 2010 (UTC)