Talk:Greater India/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Greater India. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Akhanda Bharatam

Who coined this term?

Manjunatha (9 Feb 2006)

can someone add a map showing all baaratah varsh

Greater India

I don't see the rationale of the merger. Greater India is a cultural term, while Undivided India is a political term. However, since Greater India was already there, I also added Indies. Logically, both should be separate articles. deeptrivia (talk) 21:25, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Greater vs Undivided

Political undivided India is far smaller than so-called Greater India. Greater India itself is also far smaller than what is claimed in the article. For example, how can "all of" Tibet and Myanmar be claimed as "historical homelands" of Hindus, and therefore Greater India? This is irredentism taken to ridiculous heights, if it is as claimed. I've never heard of Akhand Bharat involving Myanmar or Tibet. If it does, it might as well also draw in all other areas that were simply influenced by Hindus (Javanese, Champa and Khmer kingdoms) and Buddhists (Korea, Japan, Thailand). --SohanDsouza 21:38, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Hinduism is not the basis of Greater India. It might be that of Akhand Bharat. Greater India is purely a cultural term, based purely on past cultural influence, and has no political connotations. Of course, now even those cultural influences are gone (e.g., in Central Asia.) This term is kind of similar to Indies, which is also called "East India". I've seen maps of "Akhand Bharat" that includes Myanmar. These were drawn in the 20s and 30s, when Myanmar was politically a part of India. deeptrivia (talk) 16:30, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Sistan-Balochistan

I dont think this Iranian province had much to do with Indian civilization. The Balochistan region in general was an intermediate region between Ancient India and Ancient Persia and fluctuated between both(Achaemenian or Mauryan) or stayed separate. Eventually, it was Iranianized and remained an Iranian frontier between Persia and India until the Mughals and the British annexed it into their Indian empires. It may have had prominence in it's eastern area (part of Pakistan) but I dont think the modern-Iranian Sistan-Balochistan area was apart of Indian civiliation. The rest of Pakistan probably did and maybe eastern Afghanistan (around Kabul) but not Sistan Balochistan. -User: Afghan Historian

Akhand Bharat Campaign

Refrence: [[Campaign]http://www.hindujagruti.org/cia]

The Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) is an intelligence agency of the United States Government, responsible for obtaining and analyzing information about foreign governments, corporations, and individuals, and reporting such information to the various branches of the Government. CNN is America's No. 1 cable news network and world-renowned news agency. And The British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) is the largest publicly-funded radio and television broadcasting corporation of the United Kingdom. They have deliberately cut off Kashmir from the rest of India and offered it to Pakistan and China.

CIA has published a 'The World Factbook' of the nations of the world. The distorted map of India as shown in this protest campaign is represented in this book. Most of the world's websites, universities etc refer to this book as a standard version of the world's known facts. They regard it as the official version of the map of India. Thus 90% of the maps of India available around the world reflect this biased version. Are we as Indians, born of this land going to take this silently?

The partition of India and Pakistan occurred in accordance with the 'Indian Independence Act' passed by the British Parliament on 1st July 1947. There has been no alteration to the international borders set up in 1947 till date.

This is NOT a mistake due to ignorance! CIA, a powerful intelligence agency of the US government and CNN has all the information about foreign governments in their hand. They have deliberately distorted the truth. To aid researchers, the Indian government has also placed an official map of India on the website. The United Nations (UN) has clearly mentioned in its asian map that the "Final Status of Jammu and Kashmir has not yet been agreed upon by parties." (i.e. India and Pakistan) Even then why have the "Fact-masters" ignored these official documents and supported Pakistan by upholding their version of map. This clearly indicates CIA, CNN and BBC's prejudiced leanings towards Pakistan and thus that of US. They are the new invaders of our motherland.

Maps

I readded a deleted map to delineate the information juxtaposed next to it. The regions highlighted in the map historically have Indic cultural influences. Thus, a visual is appropriate. Thanks. I hope this helps. Anupam^Talk 07:10, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

mergers

alright, the discussion of the term "India" is spread over too many articles at the moment.

we need to centralize this discussion. This article isn't about "Undivided India" so much as about listing all these terms. it would be best to {{move}} this article to India (and the present India to Republic of India) and make it a summary discussion of all these terms. It's just too damn confused as it is now. dab (𒁳) 08:53, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I support this suggestion. — goethean ॐ 00:15, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Moving India to the Republic of India is like changing the Constitution of India - [1]. It also looks really bizarre and strange that the contents of Undivided India have been changed to look really stupid from its original meaning as enshrined in a legal enactment! However, as this free encyclopedia prides itself on having free flow style contents based on consensus, I don't mind if consensus is to say that India emerged when Pakistan was divided into Pakistan and India. I am not bitter, I am visualizing the possible contents of this encyclopedia which the founders fondly planned to be around for next 100 years. --Bhadani (talk) 18:17, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I support the suggestion of the move of India to the Republic of India--Keerllston 23:15, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

And why are we discussing these page moves here? Take this to INB or Talk:India to get more participation. I am against any moves just yet. Sarvagnya 07:49, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

What you are looking at here is an abandoned discussion that kept dormant since September 2007 till you posted. A renewed discussion is happening some place else. A click on the "discuss" link in merger proposed template (at the top of this article) would have taken you there. The new discussion has also been submitted for wider attention. If you want the new discussion to be advertised on Talk:India, you are most welcome to do so. I personally think it's a pretty neat idea. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 08:18, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Certainly, other proposed mergers or page moves can't sensibly be discussed here on this talk page. Strawless (talk) 22:21, 3 October 2008 (UTC

Use of the phrase dharmic religions

Reliable sources for the term dharmic religions?

Where are the reliable sources that use the term dharmic religions in the context of this article? Dharmic religions is a now deleted obscure neologism and should not be used throughout Wikipedia. A more common readily available alternative is Indian religions. If it is not an obscure neologism then it would be easy to provide multiple reliable sources books, peer reviewed articles etc. I am waiting. Andries 17:20, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

The number of google scholar results for "Indian religions"+"Indian religion" is (45.600 + 84.200) while it is only (492+475) for "dharmic religions" +"dharmic religion" (492+475). See Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2007_September_8. Andries 19:15, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Hoax

Unfortunately, the Indian Empire or the Raj excluded hundreds of princely states including Tripura, Cooch Behar, Hyderabad, Kashmir, Junagarh and many more, as well as French and Portuguese holdings like Pondicherry and Goa. Afghanistan had never been a part of the Raj. This stangest of claim that roughly the SAARC countries constitute the Indian Empire is not only dubious. It looks like pure hoax. Claiming that Indian linguistic and cultural influences constitute an Undivided India as far as South-East Asia and Iran, is even more preposterous, particularly when considering that Iran has more influence on India than the other way round. The predominance of Dharmic religion bit is even more strange, as the consensus has already reduced that concept to nothingness. Someone needs to define that Dharmic religion and culture first, before starting to make tall claims on its behalf. Every single line is suspect, on at least two counts, in the section. If there is no improvement, it should be removed completely, and fast. This type of propaganda is simply unacceptable. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 06:33, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Proposed merger to British India

I came here because there are tags on British India and on this Undivided India article proposing a merger of Undivided India into British India, but that makes no sense at all to me. British India was most of India, but it was also a division of India, that is, it was those parts of India under British administration and did not include about 40% of the subcontinent. I have so far failed to see the purpose of having an article on Undivided India, so I tend to agree that it should indeed be merged somewhere, but there are other more suitable articles to merge it into, such as Indian subcontinent. Strawless (talk) 22:21, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Strawless. Undivided India has many meanings, only one of which is "India during 1765-1947" (i.e. during British Rule). British India was a subset of that undivided India; so even if one were to restrict the meaning of undivided India, I don't see how a bigger entity (undivided India) could be redirected to a smaller one (British India, i.e. those parts of undivided India between 1765 and 1947 that were directly governed by the British). I think the merge banner should be removed, or a page other than British India should be chosen for the object of this merger. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 14:26, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

The most prevalent usage of the term is in the context of the "India" which existed prior to the partition of the subcontinent. That is the reason why I proposed the merger. The Afghan conquest of Punjab in te 18th century AD,etc., aren't regarded as "partitionings"-Ravichandar _{My coffee shop} 03:14, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I have left a note on the talk page of Ravichandar84, who proposed the merger, asking him if he would like to make another suggestion. Strawless (talk) 19:32, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

The term "Undivided India" itself is a POV. While it is, indeed, used by some people to describe pre-partition India, it isn't an universally accepted term. Also, the term displays a great degree of ambiguity. Of course, what do you mean by "Undivided India". There have been many "divisions" which had actually taken place. Ceylon was separated from India in 1803; Burma and Aden Colony were separated from India in 1937 and Pakistan (East and West) in 1947.

And by the way, the term "Undivided" itself is closely connected to the British Raj (Of course, the British were the ones who divided India). Hence, I strongly feel that if the article is to be merged it should be merged with British India. As far as the Indian subcontinent is concerned, it also includes historical regions related to India as Afghanistan which were not a part of "Undivided India".Thanks-Ravichandar _{My coffee shop} 03:04, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

In any case, "Undivided India" is not really any real political entity. For the geographic entity, we have Indian subcontinent. For the regions under British rule 1757-1947, we have British Raj. Then what really is "Undivided" India, and what then is "Divided India"? --Ragib (talk) 22:45, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

"Undivided India" is generally used to refer to India before the partitioning of the subcontinent. But we are not sure whether it also includes India in 1500BC, India in 500BC, India in 1000AD and India in 1500AD. As this term displays a great deal of ambiguity, I don't think we should have articles for the same. Besides, I don't think that the term "Undivided India" was in popular usage outside the Indian subcontinent.

However, it is pretty sure that British India was referred to as Undivided India though we aren't sure whether the term applied to Mughal India and the empires which preceded them as I haven't found a single usage of the term in such a context. Hence, I suggest that the article be merged with British India.-Ravichandar _{My coffee shop} 03:35, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you, Ravichandar, that India in the time of the British is sometimes referred to now as 'Undivided India', but that can only be a fairly modern development, following the great Partition. For a definition of 'Undivided India' which has some authority, see India's Citizenship Act 1955, which uses it to mean the whole of what was defined by the Government of India Act 1935 as "India", that is, British India plus the princely states.

I think the reasoning you give for your proposal supports a merger with British Raj, but most of the present Undivided India article is about tangential subjects, such as Greater India, and it seems to me that there is really almost nothing in the present article which can usefully be merged to British Raj. While I'm doubtful about the usefulness of the content, a redirect from here to British Raj makes some sense. I'd be willing to check whether there's anything in this article which does need to be salvaged, if it is merged/redirected. Strawless (talk) 15:36, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Strawless, the page should be merged with British Raj, not "British India." "Undivided India" is a term that was used synonymously with "Pre-partition India," and was used mostly in the 1950s and 60s in India to distinguish the newly independent Republic of India from its colonial antecedent. The topic "Undivided India" has nothing in common with Greater India; the latter has four clearly delineated meanings, three of which are archaic, and none of which border, in meaning, on "Pre-partition India."

So, this page should redirected to British Raj, unless there is a preponderance of evidence, by way of scholarly sources, that this was indeed a term used in the 1950s and 60s in India, in which case, the page could be a sort of disambiguation page which could explain this sociological point in one sentence and then refer the reader to the British Raj page. However the danger in making this an independent page is that every so often Hindu nationalist editors will reinvent this page and make it about a larger than life historical India that has no precedent in reality. Already, this India of fantasy, Akhand Bharat, sometimes translated as "undivided India," but more accurately "indivisible India," is redirected to this page; in this latter sense it is not only a reference to what India was before 1947, but also what it should be. (See its Google Scholar links.) Fowler&fowler «Talk» 18:26, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I support the approach suggested by Fowler&fowler, as 'Undivided India' is almost synonymous with the subject of British Raj. But I say this subject to the proviso that a definition of 'Undivided India' would then need to be maintained at British Raj, as the two terms are not quite synonymous. My revisions to the article today were intended to take out the material which was irrelevant to its subject and to give some idea of a suitable text to be merged. Strawless (talk) 22:47, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I followed a link to this page and found a sensible definition of "Undivided India" here. However, one can say that Undivided India needs only to be defined. The status quo makes it easy to find this definition quickly, and probably that would not be the case if the merger into a much longer article should take place. Umar Zulfikar Khan (talk) 05:57, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Undivided India and Akhand Bharat

I've only just noticed that Akhand Bharat redirects here. It's not identical to the legal use in English of "Undivided India" which is defined here, meaning more "Indivisible India" or "Unbreakable India", so it has more feeling in it, especially for older people. I suggest that we need to do something about this, either on this page or on a new page called Akhand Bharat. Umar Zulfikar Khan (talk) 09:00, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

It's amazing how many of you hate India

Before Islam came into the region, the majority of people were Hindu. And et some of you don't understand why those lands (Afghanistan, Iran, etc.) are being classified as being part of greater India or ancient India. I mean it's the same land. The same people. The same history. It only became separate because people like you want there own identity. I mean how do you explain that many Indians, Iranians, Afghans, etc. look the same? This is like claiming Canada was never the same as America. Or Texas was never part of Mexico.

Nobody hates India, we are just against Hinducentric agenda's that try to paint the whole world as hindu or indian and try to claim other people as you are doing. Afghans and Indians don't look like each other because they are not the same people. And also, Afghanistan and Iran were never part of India, but rather the Iranian Plateau and were culturally and linguisticly different from Indians who are more closer to their Austroloid cousins then to Iranians. Akmal94 (talk) 04:03, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

The article is about places that have historically had significant Indian influence. Afghanistan falls under that. 47.186.210.131 (talk) 00:55, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

Afghanistan has no Indian influence whatsoever. 207.164.39.234 (talk) 15:43, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Yes it does. You clearly know nothing about premodern or modern Afghanistan. I suggest giving any Afghanistan related article on wikipedia a glance. 97.94.199.166 (talk) 06:27, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

Roughly analogous to modern South Asia

This article suggests that the term "Greater India" applies to a region that is roughly analogous to modern [[]South Asia]]. If it is defined as being the area influenced by Indian religious thought, language, art and literature, then this is a very limited criteria. One would assume that "Greater India" could also refer to most of Southeast Asia (where several kingdoms had close ties with India) It is debatable whether such a term as "Greater India" enjoyed any usage before the modern era.

Tibet and Yunnan are not part of Greater India. I think if a distinction is to be made between Indian and non-Indian, it should be made on the basis of whether the people are Aryan-descent or Dravidian-descent or not. Otherwise the definition of Indian is very loose and can easily include the Burmese, Thais, Vietnamese, Javans, Malays, Cambodians, Guyanese, Trinidadian, Maldivian, Mauritians and many other nationalities who while not ethnically part of India share certain cultural values. 69.193.87.5 01:34, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Um... many Guyanese, Trinidadians, Maldivians and Mauritians ARE of Indian descent as in indigenous to the modern day country of India. And definition of "India" was/is very loose. Before Southeast Asia and even parts of Afghanistan were considered "the Indies" before the Europeans, Mughals and other foreigners came and started taking pieces of it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.194.17.115 (talk) 02:27, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Their was nothing called aryan or dravids. The term first came in to existences after some British historian write about it. It was simply for dividing Indians as they were doing on the bases of religion and other things. Most of the currenct knows histry is written by british who manipulated histry to divide rule. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2409:4063:2093:6F0D:65D6:F5D1:8B7C:8CC8 (talk) 19:40, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

Pan-nationalism?

greater india is listed here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-nationalism but it does not appear to be a nationalism movement but cultural influence similar to the overlapping chinese article. i propose a removal from that list to avoid the idea that there is "expansionism" or at least move it out, see the article of what i mean. 218.186.8.233 (talk) 21:30, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

merge proposals

I agree, merge both, this is the least loaded term. Chris 04:18, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Oppose both suggestions. The term has different valid definitions and usage (even if many are historical). The article has now an adequate explanation of these. Tibet (and part at least of Yunnan) fit into some such definitions. Imc 13:44, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I take back part of the above. Indosphere could be sensibly included in this article. Imc 16:13, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

It should be merged with "Indosphere" and perhaps "Undivided India".Scimitar2 19:57, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Yunan and Tibet never a part of India

That's all! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.218.20.127 (talk) 12:38, 28 March 2007 (UTC).

Sorry to butt in but Tibet has nothing in common with China either. At least the Tibetan script is an indic script and the Tibetan religion and culture have been significantly influenced by India. China has had absolutely np influence culturally or any other on TIbet before the communist invasion and occupation of Tibet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.166.148.8 (talk) 07:11, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh for goodness sakes break it up and cease the nonsense. -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs 12:23, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Tibet

Tibet is part of Qing, Republic of China and then People's Republic of China. That's all! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.188.90.194 (talk) 04:54, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Sistan-Baluchistan never apart of India

Iranian Baluchistan has never been apart of India. Rather, it is Pakistani Baluchistan that is apart of Greater Iran. To India's west only the Pakistani provinces of Punjab and Sindh are linguistically, ethnically and cultrually related to India. As it stands this is a completely un-authentic and untrue article. "Greater India" extends all the way from Iran to Indonesia? Is that map intended to be a joke or what?

Oh and finally, Baluchistan and Pakistan's NWFP are not apart of the Indian subcontinent. Both lie on the Iranian plateau. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.12.107.88 (talk) 20:47, 28 April 2007 (UTC).

Sorry NWFP is very much part of the subcontinent. Before the 10th century Gandhara was very much in the Indian cultural sphere with Hinduism adn Buddhism the dominant religions and an Indic language being spoken around the Kabul/ NWFP area —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.166.148.8 (talk) 07:14, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

The Hindu Shahi kings as well ruled the area of Ghandara, near Khabul, Balochistan was a part of the Mauryan Empire, and the Kushans both of whom were Bhuddist patrons and spread Indian culture (The Kushans supported Indian developments and studies of Sanskrit and Ayuveda)

Precedence in Historiography?

What evidence is there that the term "Greater India" is (or was) commonly used in historiography? Of the three references in the article, two are web sites (that are hardly reliable) and the third, Susan Bayley's article, "‘Greater India’: French and Indian Visions of Colonialism in the Indic Mode" uses the term figuratively, and "explores both Western and Asian imaginings of national histories beyond the boundaries of the nation. It seeks to contribute to the history of Asian modernities, and to the anthropological study of nationalism. Its focus is on thinkers and political actors whose visions of both the colonising and decolonising processes were translocal, rather than narrowly territorial in scope." I see "Greater India" as a bogus term, without any real historiographical precedent. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 16:16, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Whatever 'historiography' is, Greater India is a real and useful term, for an area with varying degrees of cultural or political unity at different times. There are enough references in the article, and more to be found elsewhere, in print and on the web. I've been coming across the term most of my life. Many people (see earlier comments) chose to confuse it with modern India; they may feel better if they confused it with modern Sind or the river Indus instead. The region could and does overlap with other cultural regions; e.g. the Chinese and Persian cultural regions. It does not detract from the validity of the term. Imc 15:13, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Historiography is the writing of history. It is not enough to claim to have come across the term "Greater India" during much of your lifetime. As I mention above, the references in the article are not enough. Two are web sites and not reliable; the third, uses the term figuratively, pointing out that it was a part of the early nationalistic imagining of history. No one is confusing "Greater India" with the current-day Republic of India, but rather as a projection into the past of current-day Indian nationalism. It is OK to have an article on "Greater India" and treat it as a term that was used in nationalistic writings, but it needs more reliably referenced for that. Until such time as that happens, I am reinserting the disputed tag. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 09:16, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, but this is an encyclopaedia, not a journal of historical research. Why don't you alter the article to take account of your concerns? Imc 19:35, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

You are absolutely right Fowler. "Greater India" is a wholly bogus term. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.12.107.88 (talk) 21:03, 13 May 2007 (UTC).

It is definitely not a very widely used term, but its use can often be found in academic works. Some examples.

Wales, H. G. Quaritch (1951) The Making of Greater India: A Study in Southeast Asian Culture Change. London: Bernard Quaritch.
Definition from the Journal of the Greater India Society, Calcutta,1934 [2]
The Art Of Greater India : [the Denver Art Museum Collection] "a selection of topflight objects which represent the major art expressions of India proper, Afghanistan, Nepal, Thailand, Cambodia and Java" [3]
Scholberg, Henry, ed. The Biographical Dictionary of Greater India. New Delhi: Promilla & Co., 1998.
"The Religious Art of Greater India", three credit undergrad course at U. Conn [4] on the monumental religious art of the Hindus, Buddhists and Jains on the Indian mainland (including Nepal) and the countries of S.E. Asia influenced by them.
"The sculpture of Greater India", Afghanistan to Vietnam, Nepal to Indonesia. Metropolitan Museum of Art Bulletin
"Bronzes of India and Greater India", Artibus Asiae, Vol 19, No.3/4. [5]

etc. Note, however, that the term is more commonly used in geology, where it is used by geoscientists in plate tectonic models of the India–Asia collision system [6]. We should have a section on the geological meaning. To my knowledge, this term has thankfully never been picked up by any kind of nationalists. Also, thankfully, I'm not the kind of editor who would "rv unilateral tagging" of others, so please remove it if you're convinced, or comment here if you're not. deeptrivia (talk) 03:20, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the reminder. I will attend to this in the next few days. For the older meaning of the term in history itself, esp. nationalist narratives, I quote from Susan Bayley's article (MAS 2004, referenced in main article) below. The Greater India Society did have some influence on Art History, where the term survived a little longer.

“

My particular focus is a network of influential twentieth-century Indian scholars who wrote on nationalist cultural topics both before and after Independence. This was quite a disparate group of thinkers. Most were Hindu Bengalis with training in the humanist and social science disciplines, especially history and philology. Many also took a keen interest in new developments in other related fields, particularly in theories of human culture and the nature of the civilising process emanating from the work of anthropologists in both Europe and the United States. What they all had in common was their involvement in a Calcutta-based organisation known as the Greater India Society. From the 1920s until well into the post-Independence period, this body acted as a platform for the presentation of polemical and often provocative accounts of Indian culture as a supra-local civilising force.

The Greater India initiative has left an enduring legacy which can still be discerned in a wide range of contemporary thinking about Asian identities and cultural allegiances. Many—though not all—of its original supporters were ardent Hindu nationalists. Present-day Hindu supremacists still recapitulate some of their key formulations.

”

Fowler&fowler «Talk» 05:28, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

PS Actually, on second thoughts, I don't have enough time right now to do justice to the article. I have therefore removed the disputed tag. Please feel free to add the geophysical definition. Thanks. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 06:27, 10 June 2007 (UTC) Will add something to the article. Have removed the disputed tag. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 12:56, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

The new additions are mostly original research, which should be reverted right away. There are plenty of references showing a wider use of the term in history in general and art history in particular continuing till today. The "Greater India initiative" is obviously about the initiatives of the Greater India Society, which ceases to exist today, but this doesn't have anything to do with this term. Please refrain from extrapolations and original research. deeptrivia (talk) 16:14, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Nothing there was original research. All from Bayley's article and Guha-Thakurta's book etc. But anyway, I don't have the time to bicker. Please edit and alter in whatever way you want. I am saving my version (in case of future need) in the collapsible box below. Regards, Fowler&fowler «Talk» 16:44, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for sounding that way. Of course, the current version is way better than anything we could have achieved without you. Cheers, deeptrivia (talk) 03:43, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

And, in turn, thanks for your input. I learnt something as a result of your questioning: accounts of old nautical voyages often described countries in terms of coastlines, rather than hinterlands. This, of course, only makes sense, but can sound funny in light of modern knowledge. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 10:08, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Fowler&fowler's version: Expand to see contents

The term Greater India has several related meanings:

In medieval literature: the term "Greater India" (Indyos mayores^[1]) has been used at least since the mid 15th century.^[1] The term, which seems to have been used with variable precision,^[2] sometimes meant only the Indian subcontinent.^[3] However, in other European writings, "Greater India" (or "India Major") extended from the Malabar coast to India extra Gangem (lit. "India, beyond the Ganges," but usually the East Indies) and "India Minor," from Malabar coast to Sind.^[4]
In late 19th century Geography: The term "Greater India" included: "(a) Himalaya, (b) Punjab, (c) Hindustan, (d) Burma, (e) Indo-China, (f) Sunda Islands, (g) Borneo, (h) Celebes, and (i) Philippines."^[5] (Similarly "Greater Australia" included "(a) West Australla, (b) East Australia, (c) New Zealand, (d) Melanesia, (e) Micronesia, (f) Polynesia.")^[5]
In 20th century history, art history, linguistics, and allied fields: consisted of "all the Asian lands including Burma, Java, Cambodia, Bali, and the former Champa and Funan polities of present-day Vietnam,"^[6] in which pre-Islamic Indian culture left an "imprint in the form of monuments, inscriptions and other traces of the historic ‘Indianising’ process."^[6] In some accounts, many Pacific societies and "most of the Buddhist world including Ceylon, Tibet, central Asia and even Japan were held to fall within this web of Indianising ‘culture colonies’"^[6] This particular usage (implying cultural "sphere of influence" of India) does not go back to before the 1920s, and lasted well into the 1970s in history and later in other fields.
In late-20 century geoscience: the term is used to mean "the Indian sub-continent plus a postulated northern extension,"^[7] in plate tectonic models of the India–Asia collison. Although its usage in geoscience pre-dates plate tectonic theory,^[8] the term has seen increased usage since the 1970s.

Usage in History

The third meaning of "Greater India" (as a cultural sphere of influence) was popularized by a network of Bengali scholars in the 1920s who were all members of the Calcutta-based Greater India Society. The movement's early leaders included the historian R.C. Majumdar (1888–1980); the philologists Suniti Kumar Chatterji (1890–1977) and P.C. Bagchi (1898–1956), the historians Phanindranath Bose and Kalidas Nag (1891–1966).^[9] The Greater India Society scholars postulated a benevolent ancient Indian cultural colonization of South-east Asia, in stark contrast—in their view—to the colonialism of the early 20th century.^[10]

“

"The ancient Hindus of yore were not simply a spiritual people, always busy with mystical problems and never troubling themselves with the questions of ‘this world’ . . . India also has its Napoleons and Charlemagnes, its Bismarcks and Machiavellis. But the real charm of Indian history does not consist in these aspirants after universal power, but in its peaceful and benevolent Imperialism—a unique thing in the history of mankind. The colonisers of India did not go with sword and fire in their hands; they used . . . the weapons of their superior culture and religion [to bring] the world under their sway. Wherever they went, they conquered the world through their culture . . . . This fascinating and forgotten chapter of Indian history is being gradually reconstructed by the constant efforts of Indologists . . . .The Buddhist age has attracted special attention, and the French savants have taken much pains [sic] to investigate the splendid monuments of the Indian cultural empire in the Far East."^[11]

”

The term was used in historical writing in India well into the 1970s. For example, the fifteenth chapter of the popular text-book, An Advanced History of India.^[12] titled, "Colonial and Cultural Expansion (of Ancient India)", and written by R. C. Majumdar, concluded with:

“

We may conclude with a broad survey of the Indian colonies in the Far East. For nearly fifteen hundred years, and down to a period when the Hindus had lost their independence in their own home, Hindu kings were ruling over Indo-China and the numerous islands of the Indian Archipelago, from Sumatra to New Guinea. Indian religion, Indian culture, Indian laws and Indian government moulded the lives of the primitive races all over this wide region, and they imbibed a more elevated moral spirit and a higher intellectual taste through the religion, art, and literature of India. In short, the people were lifted to a higher plane of civilization. A greater India was established by a gentle fusion of races, which richly endowed the original inhabitants with the spiritual heritage of India.... The colonial and cultural expansion of India is one of the most brilliant, but forgotten, episodes of Indian history, of which any Indian may justly feel proud."

”

In the field of Art History, especially in American writings on the Indian Art History, the term survived longer due to the influence of art theorist Ananda Coomaraswamy. Coomaraswamy's view of pan-Indian art history was influenced by the "Calcutta cultural nationalists."^[13]

Notes

^ ^a ^b (Azurara 1446)
^ (Beazley 1910, p. 708) Quote: "Azurara's hyperbole, indeed, which celebrates the Navigator Prince as joining Orient and Occident by continual voyaging, as transporting to the extremities of the East the creations of Western industry, does not scruple to picture the people of the Greater and the Lesser India welcoming his ships (which never passed beyond Sierra Leone), praising his generosity, and even experiencing his hospitality."
^ (Beazley 1910, p. 708) Quote: "Among all the confusion of the various Indies in Mediaeval nomenclature, "Greater India" can usually be recognized as restricted to the "India proper" of the modern world."
^ (Caverhill 1767)
^ ^a ^b "Review: New Maps," (1912) Bulletin of the American Geographical Society 44(3): 235-240.
^ ^a ^b ^c (Bayly 2005, p. 713)
^ (Ali & Aitchison 2005, p. 170)
^ Argand, E., 1924. La tectonique de l' Asie. Proc. 13th Int. Geol. Cong. 7 (1924), 171–372.
^ (Bayly 2005, p. 710)
^ (Bayly 2005, p. 712)
^ Review by ‘SKV’ of The Hindu Colony of Cambodia by Phanindranath Bose [Adyar, Madras: Theosophical Publishing House 1927] in The Vedic Magazine and Gurukula Samachar 26: 1927, pp. 620–1.
^ (Majumdar 1960, pp. 222–223)
^ (Guha-Thakurta 1992, pp. 159–167)

References

Ali, Jason R.; Aitchison, Jonathan C. (2005), "Greater India", Earth-Science Reviews, 72 (3–4): 169–188.
Azurara, Gomes Eannes de (1446), Chronica do Discobrimento e Conquista de Guiné (eds. Carreira and Pantarem, 1841), Paris.
Bayly, Susan (2004), "Imagining 'Greater India': French and Indian Visions of Colonialism in the Indic Mode", Modern Asian Studies, 38 (3): 703–744.
Beazley, Raymond (1910), "Prince Henry of Portugal and the Progress of Exploration", The Geographical Journal, 36 (6): 703–716.
Caverhill, John (1767), "Some Attempts to Ascertain the Utmost Extent of the Knowledge of the Ancients in the East Indies", Philosophical Transactions, 57: 155–178
Guha-Thakurta, Tapati (1992), The making of a new ‘Indian’ art. Artists, aesthetics and nationalism in Bengal, c. 1850–1920., Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press.
Majumdar, R. C., H. C. Raychaudhuri, and Kalikinkar Datta (1960), An Advanced History of India, London: Macmillan and Co., 1122 pages{{citation}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link).

I am somewhat confused by the disambiguation-page style of the current lede. Apart from the geological meaning, which I suppose should be dealt with by true disambiguation ({{otheruses}}), I have the impression this is "pseudo-disambiguation", discussing various aspects and historical deveolpment of one and the same notion. Bayley's article, I am sorry to say, reads like so much meaningless postmodernist drivel, and while we can certainly refer to it, I would recommend against using it as a significant support of how to arrange this article. --dab (𒁳) 09:51, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Part of the lack of usage of such a term is due the unessecary nature of such in the past. Before the partition of India, India, as described by European merchants stretched from modern Pakistan to the bay of Bengal. In addition, non-Indian ethnic groups were described in various sketches and drawings by European merchants, travelers, and missionaries, describing 'Sikhs, Afghans, Maratha' as casts of India. In addition, the term Hindu being derived from Shindu river, Hindu originally being an ethnic term for peoples living beyond the river valley (modern Sindh and west Pakistan are part of this valley). Additionally, the Kingdom of Ghandara was well withing the Indian cultural sphere, Taxilla near modern Islamabad and the Afghan area of Peshawar was governed by the Indian Emperor Ashoka while he was still a prince. In addtion the area was host to a university and learned scholars who predominantly featured Indian ideas, and was a major center of Bhuddism. Modern Peshawar was home to shah-ji 'deri?' (not sure on the spelling of that term) meaning the mound/temple of the great king (shah - king and ji - Indian honorific, again a temple in Peshawar using an indian honorific) was a bhuddist temple.

While this map is obviously very bad, it is remarkable when you consider it is much older than 2000 years, and was the earliest to draw the world in such a scale. India as concieved by the Greeks can be seen at the eastern edge covering the region beyond the Hindu Kush mountains - https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/Mappa_di_Eratostene.jpg

Lastly, the Hindu kush mountains historically were the boundry of major 'Hindu' cultural presences as a natural barrier. Today these mountains are in western Pakistan and Around Kabul in Afghanistan. I could go into more information if requested, but suffice it to say, Indic influence certainly was present in the region of Khabul, and the Bactrian kingdom of northern Afghanistan and Tajikistan was also host to Indic culture and practices, although this was much more peripheral compared to direct rule and cultural influence in Ghandara, and thus is best left off a map or mentioned only as a peripheral region recieving more minor influence. The pali language as well was used by the Indo-greeks, present in modern Pakistan and eastern Afghanistan, pali being a language of the Bhudda and a language from Eastern India.

The use of 'Greater India' is therefore very useful to explain the extent of Indic influence geographically in Asia. Just as Sino-civilization is a useful term to explain the cultural links between Korea, Japan, and Vietnam to China, especially from the Tang dynasty which had a major cultural effect on Japan. In fact, to see Tang architecture, you would be better off visiting Japan, where Tang influenced architecture is present to this day.

Now since the concepts of 'cultural regions' has been established as a very real phenomenon, the only question is what to call it. And while some may disagree with 'greater India', I would say the term fits well enough, since British India was the forerunner to modern India, and included Pakistan (a term far, far older, by a couple thousand years than 'Pakistan' which is roughly 100 years old). India is afterall called so for the Indus or Shindu river. You could call it the 'greater Indus cultural sphere' but the problem with that is the break between the ancient Indus civilization and later Indo-Aryan civilizations would perhaps be done injustice by the term Indus sphere since it may suggest that. In addition, any term must have academic usage, and the only other term I've heard used in academic literature, especially British, is British India or Greater India.

As an aside, I find the south-east Asian connections valid as well, we know of Burmese usage of terms like Raja and Mandala, both from India. Hindu religion in Champa and Cambodia (Angor wat was an ancient Hindu temple before being converted into a Bhuddist one, and examine the architecture to see the resemblance to Hindu temples in India today.

In addition, with the exception of Vietnam ( A sino-influenced nation which is like Sino nations, Mahayana bhuddist) most South east asian nations are Theravada Buddhist, a branch of Buddism originating in South Asia/India. Showing religous influence of Hinduism and Buddism both had an Indian dimension, espicially the usage of terms like Raja by Burmese, the god Indra which influenced the naming of a city Indrapura in modern South vietnam (pura being a suffix for cities in India, Indra being a god in Hinduism) https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/VietnamChampa1.gif not to mention the name of the capital of medieval Thailand, Ayutthai was influenced by Ayodha where 'Rama' the epitome of man, or ideal king shows it's influence in Thailand. In Iran the city of Nishapur again shows the pur suffix associated with dozens of South Asian cities.

It's very, very clear there is a cultural linkage throughout the region described by the term 'Greater India' I think people have a problem with the name. Well India is called Bharat by the Indians themselves, so perhaps just start calling India Bharat in English and all your hesitations will go away. Frankly it'd be easier for people to not just get offended over a word. Are we going to have to rename the 'India plate' as well in geology/geography? The term Europe doesn't ever draw a lot of hate, despite the fact it similarly terms a culturally linked region.

Regarding China

The two provinces of China are slightly influenced by India and neither was ever a part of India. Culturally it is much like the rest of China. So you either include all of China or none of it.

All of China should be put under Greater India. Buddhism and its teachings is widespread throughout China. Suitofhearts 03:24, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

WP:CITE says we "put under Greater India" whatever we can establish our sources put under Greater India, there is no "should". --dab (𒁳) 09:53, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Are you trying to make a nationalistic point? If you really believe that doing such pointless things on Wikipedia such as adding cultural claims, then my good comrade you are mistaken. -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs 12:25, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Indosphere

This should be merged with the article "Greater India".

What does Tibet, especially Yunnan region in China has anything to do with Indosphere? Is this another pathetic attempt to promote the India as a super power propaganda?

Tibet is so clearly heavily influence by Indian culture. Tibet's writing system, its architecture, religion, although its clothing and certain aspects like the roof of building came from China. Yunnan is even easier to explain. The Yunnanese compose of many tribes, many of which are practitioners of theravada buddhism. Their architecture and dress are nearly identical to those of Thailand and Laos. CanCanDuo 18:18, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Strong support. The Indosphere is a very weak concept, almost devoid of scholarship, and barely used in popular culture. Highly suspect. Should we have an "Americanisphere" as well? That would be huge. But why not also an "ElSalvadorisphere?" El Salvador influences its neighbors and even the USA. How do you define what's in and what's out? You can't. It has no scientific basis. I vote to merge it. There's a nasty tendency (though well intentioned I'm sure) to promote big countries like India, CHina, and the USA and speak of their influence on others, but not the other way around. It's an inadvertent form of cultural imperialism. --Smilo Don 03:26, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

If the term "Indosphere" exists as it's self a concept, then it belongs on Wikipedia. You are an Ignoramous. 67.190.27.113 19:43, 10 October 2007 (UTC) Josh Van Maren

Merge, obviously. Wikipedia isn't a dictionary, and it is perfectly common to merge discussion of closely related terms into a single article. --dab (𒁳) 09:56, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

The Indo-centric jingoism has been curbed out to make way for a scientific concept. It has nothing to with cultural imperialism anymore. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 04:05, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Strong support for merge. There is no use for political debating here. The two are synonymous, as I don't think anyone in this argument has actually disputed. 78.149.175.48 (talk) 16:07, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

No, dear. It's been solved. The Indosphere now stands as an article on a sprachbund, and has nothing to do with a greater India. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 16:02, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

How is it propaganda to link the religous, linguistic, cultural, and ideological spread of ideas accross a geographical region?

I'll just go ahead and copy paste an earlier reply so you can see the various reasons why labeling it as propaganda doesn't make sense when most of the justification for an Indian cultural sphere traces back to the time of the Greeks and pre-dates any modern events. recognizing Greek influence in Afghanistan doesn't lead to strange accusations of Hellenistic propaganda. It's just a recognition of facts of such cultural influence (namely in the founding of Alexandria Aria and Alexandria near modern Khabul)