Talk:George Town, Penang

This article needs a serious rewrite

Plenty of poorly written, unsubstantiated, non-NPOV content. Will start working on it soon. 42.61.51.66 (talk) 09:16, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

Image cruft?

Does it really need so many images? Almost every major building / monument / street furniture / event seems to be covered, let alone the multiple panorama shots, near-dupliacte maps, etc. I mean, the article is surely sightly (!) over-detailed in any case, but cf. WP:NOTGALLERY, I'd question how many of these actually 'increase readers' understanding of the article's subject matter'. WP:IG re. 'shoe-horning' is probably relevant too. Cheers, — O Fortuna ^{semper crescis, aut decrescis} 10:43, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

@Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi:, Thanks for your feedback. I have reduced the number of images in this article and made sure to include only the relevant ones. Hopefully this should suffice. Vnonymous 00:09, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

I agree that there are just far too many images, particularly in the "Economy" section - on a 1920 x 1080 display, they force the text into the middle of the screen as they are spaced too close together. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:04, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Revert of edit

Can User:Vnonymous explain why this revert was necessary? Is there anything wrong with adding a former street name that was relevant to the landmark that the thumbnail displays, especially for a street which name has been completely recontextualized? - 210.195.51.173 (talk) 17:28, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

@210.195.51.173:You failed to back your claims with any sort of reference. Was it necessary then to accept unverified claims? Vnonymous 09:39, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Addition of Hokkien transliteration into infobox

Can this user @LoveFromBJM: justify the addition of the Hokkien name of George Town into this article's infobox? The articles on other Malaysian cities, such as Kuala Lumpur, Kuching, Ipoh, Johor Bahru, etc., only have one entry for Chinese transliterations. Thus, this particular edit could potentially go against WP:CONSISTENCY and WP:CONS.

According to WP:CONSISTENCY, alternative names may be used in article text when context dictates that they are more appropriate than the name used as the title of the article. Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources.

Note that the Hokkien term Pho-té means downtown, so it is a rather generic term that could have been used in any other city such as Kuala Lumpur to refer to the city centre.

Going by his logic that the Hokkien name of George Town should be added into the infobox by virtue of it being spoken in George Town, then why do the articles for other cities where the Hokkiens formed a substantial part of the population, such as Taipei, Xiamen, Fuzhou or Singapore, not feature a Hokkien transliteration in their infoboxes? Similarly, why is there not a Cantonese transliteration in the infoboxes of Cantonese-majority cities like Kuala Lumpur? I believe this is a point worth considering, as there should be a consistency in the way a city article is written. Vnonymous (talk) 16:06, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Reply: @Vnonymous: Thanks, I added the name after seeing the name is written in its Chinese-language Wikipedia version. Sorry that I couldn't provide any sources. I think the addition is important because Penang Hokkien is undergoing a revitalization. Adding the name will mark significance, just like the street names in George Town, where most of the Written Chinese street names comes from Penang Hokkien. The articles mentioned like: Taipei, Xiamen, Fuzhou has their Hokkien or Hokchiu/Fuzhou names placed seperately in an Infobox Chinese name below the infobox. Although the downtown word is used to refer to Kuala Lumpur also, the written name comes from Cantonese and is used in Cantonese, so it is okay to just add the Cantonese pronounciation without adding the word 'downtown'.

I don't know the situation on Penang Hokkien, maybe the written Chinese name is seldom used in Hokkien conversation, so the 'downtown' name becomes a unique name in Penang Hokkien. There are some articles which have its Hokkien name written in infobox, as in: Tiong Bahru, Bukit Merah. But in a different situation, the Hokkien and Written Chinese name has the same Chinese character, it only needs to add Hokkien pronouciation, which indeed will not cause confusion.

Just a question: do you have Chinese language background? If you have, maybe you can understand the situation better. If you don't, you can just tell me, I will explain more. I think its okay to not put the downtown name in English Wikipedia as long as it stays in the Chinese version.

At the end, I support your choices, I am not a Penang native and I am not from the Northern Region either (I am from Johor), I noticed that you are the major contributor on the Penang's articles, so you know better. (winks) - from User:LoveFromBJM 17:00, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• KOMTAR Year 2016 April.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 18:22, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Should we update the 2010 population data to 2019/20's data?

I'm not sure if this is established as a real problem (or not), but there has been some confusion in population data between pages of cities, states and metropolitan areas. Should we update the population data based on the figures provided by the Malaysian Census, where its website, e-Census, has clearly tabled population data for each year from 2016 until the end of 2019.

e-Census's published visualized data.

My main concern happens to be the use of the figure "1.783 million people" for the page of the state of Penang, which I seriously believe is the data posted by the Department of Statistics (via e-Census) in 2019. However, for other pages, like this page for instance, the data still lists the figure published in the 2010 Census, which was "708,127 people". Current statistics for the city in 2019 is already at 817.2 thousand people, which is a huge difference.

Should we use the statistics published online by the Census, or we stick to the official 2010 Census? Because if we stick on the latter, that means the page for the state must revert back to the 2010 data if standardization is required. Or else, we might need to update the figures in all related pages given by the Department of Statistics. Besides, the figure is already 11 years old, which completely makes that data redundant for a long, long time.

Note: the next Census will be published in around 45 days, which means the 2020 Census will be here soon.

(PenangLion (talk) 16:41, 3 October 2021 (UTC))

On a related matter, could @PenangLion: or an admin help to resolve the dispute on Greater Penang's metropolitan population?

This edit by @Malaysia Skyline: (en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=George_Town,_Penang&oldid=1159218926) claimed that Greater Penang Conurbation is the third largest in Malaysia by population, whereas from the 2020 population data on local government areas, Greater Penang's was 2,667,605 and Iskandar Malaysia's population was 2,214,006.

Corncaker (talk) 02:36, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

I recalculated the 2020 census (published last year) and was going to rewrite certain pages related to urban population figures in Malaysia, unfortunately I lacked the time to do so. Essentially, the main argument on the Johoreans either fell onto how their metropolitan areas should be tied with Singapore's (as it is technically one cross-country metropolitan area) or a separate metropolitan area of its own.

Greater Penang's metropolitan area by actual terms is the second largest, but some academic sources cite the JB-Singapore metropolitan area (which has around 7-8 million in population) as the second largest. There's a separate argument that the definitions of the JB metropolitan area should be expanded, which includes a population of three million and beyond, but there has not been a consensus besides Iskandar Malaysia's own definition.

Largest settlement	Local government	Census figures
		2022	2020	2010
George Town	Penang Island City Council	791,200	794,313	708,127
Seberang Perai	Seberang Perai City Council	947,400	946,092	818,097
Sungai Petani	Sungai Petani Municipal Council	546,800	545,053	443,488
Kulim	Kulim Municipal Council	341,400	319,056	281,248
Parit Buntar	Kerian District Council	166,400	166,352	120,192
Bandar Baharu	Bandar Baharu District Council	44,500	44,412	41,659
Total		2,837,700	2,815,278	2,412,811

gavre (al. PenangLion) (talk) 05:17, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

My bad, I forgot Kerian is also inside Greater Penang! I am amending all related pages to the corrected total.

From their own website, http://www.iskandarmalaysia.com.my/location-map, Iskandar Malaysia is about 2.2 million as I calculated, totalling 5 local governments. Some academic journals may point to a Johor-Singapore conurbation but in practice, there is close to no collaboration of any kind between the 2 countries involved for a purported Greater Singapore?

Also, this user @Malaysia Skyline: keeps making unverified claims and is starting an edit war. Shall we get the mods attention on this behaviour? Corncaker (talk) 08:38, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Please be informed that Iskandar Malaysia has been doubled size in 2019, which according to Census 2020, is the second largest metro in Malaysia if including Kluang and Kota Tinggi.

You KNOW who is the first one to start this edit warring, the original edit(Greater Penang as third largest) has been in place for almost a month but you are the one who revert that edit without proper reasoning. Malaysia Skyline (talk) 09:07, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Source? gavre (al. PenangLion) (talk) 11:51, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

I just read again your comment and found out that, there is actually an economic region/metropolitan region called SIJORI Growth Triangle which was set up in last two decades, and it is in the list of the global transborder agglomeration, indicating that SIJORI is one of the largest transborder aggolomerations in Asia. It is already certain that Iskandar Malaysia can't be just on its own without considering Singapore (which Johor supplies water, provides human resources and all other close activities happening daily in this transborder metro., such as Singaporeans shopping in Iskandar Malaysia) Singapore and Iskandar cannot be independent from each other.

And it is already certain that Greater Penang is not in second place anymore. But anyway, to be fair, I mentioned it as one of the largest in the country as this is by far the most impartial yet accurate statement. I hope that resolves the issue.Malaysia Skyline (talk) 03:09, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

You are missing the point, that is, the metropolitan areas inside Malaysia itself. Shifting goal posts to justify your claims that Greater Penang is "not the second place anymore" does not hide the fact that Iskandar Malaysia has overall smaller population than Greater Penang inside Malaysia.

That is unless you are claiming also that Greater KL is no longer the largest metropolitan area in Malaysia?

I am opening up dispute resolution with admins regarding this issue, PenangLion (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and Malaysia Skyline (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Take your arguments there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#Hierarchy_of_metropolitan_areas_in_Malaysia

Corncaker (talk) 03:33, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

But at the same time ask yourself this, you can't deny that certain parts of Singapore should be part of the Greater JB metropolitan, can you? Also, I have made it clear that Iskandar Malaysia has 7 local authorities now since expansion in 2019. But again, try to remove your stereotype that Greater JB = Iskandar Malaysia. They are not the same. Iskandar Malaysia does not represent Greater JB in any way.

Just answer me this question. Malaysia Skyline (talk) 03:54, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Try to be open-minded, do not just limit your thoughts within the border of a single country. Explore and ponder beyond that. Suggest you read the page of Globalization to know the intrinsic meaning of what globalization is.

You CAN'T DENY nor IGNORE the existence of SIJORI. Malaysia Skyline (talk) 03:58, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Have you answered my question? With your claim, are you saying that Greater KL no longer the largest metropolitan area in Malaysia?

Take your arguments to the dispute resolution board. Corncaker (talk) 04:01, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Klang Valley is still the largest in Malaysia, but definitely smaller than SIJORI. JB is in different context, it can never be viewed as a single metro on its own. Therefore, I suggest to maintain the status quo and a neutral state like what you have edited just now in Iskandar Malaysia. Malaysia Skyline (talk) 04:07, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Singapore's success also depends greatly on the human resources from Johor which commute to and fro between the two cities. Singapore and Johor participate in each other's developement due to extremely close proximity. Malaysia Skyline (talk) 04:02, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

SIJORI is an economic union, not a metropolitan area. The Singaporean government (at least, via the National Library of Singapore) explains SIJORI as a "a concept of mutual cooperation in economic development among three Asean countries, Indonesia, Malaysia and Singapore, focusing on the Riau Province in Indonesia and southern Johor in Malaysia".

[1]

There are no mentions that links SIJORI as a de facto metropolitan area, nor academic references that tie SIJORI as one urban angglomeration. Trying to argue that SIJORI as a metro is the equivalent of arguing that ASEAN is one massive metropolitan area as Kuala Lumpur, Bangkok, and Singapore are closely interconnected to each other within plausible distances of one massive metropolitan area (certainly within the situation faced by Chongqing's municipal boundaries where its massive population was credited by excessive municipal zoning). gavre (al. PenangLion) (talk) 08:42, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

To add on, this same source from the Singapore government stated that

"As more states from Malaysia and Indonesia joined the grouping, SIJORI was renamed Indonesia-Malaysia-Singapore Growth Triangle (IMS-GT)"

Not only is SIJORI no longer in existence, replaced by IMS-GT, but its coverage has become far too wide for a traditional urban metropolitan area as the areas covered expands beyond Johor. That is akin to saying all of Johor and possibly Melaka and Negeri Sembilan are one metropolitan area, which in practice is just not possible. Corncaker (talk) 09:15, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm requesting admin intervention on behalf of this matter. gavre (al. PenangLion) (talk) 01:26, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, PenangLion (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log).

It does seem that the issue is not about content dispute, but that user's disruptive attitude and refusal to cooperate in discussions. Corncaker (talk) 01:33, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

1) So since SIJORI has been rebranded, there is apparently no other definitions for JB metropolitan area, I suggest we write something exactly like "JB, together, with Iskandar Puteri, Pasir Gudang, Kulai and OTHER AREAS, forms one of the largest urban conurbation in the country and the core of Iskandar Malaysia, in Johor Bahru page.

2) I am not sure whether you guys noticed that there's a contradictory statement in Greater Penang part in George Town, Penang? It says it is the second largest, but should have been written as one of the largest to avoid any contradiction with above. Malaysia Skyline (talk) 02:59, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Again, please provide concrete sourcing for your statements that concludes SIJORI / IMS-GT as an actual metropolitan area, and please refer WP:RS. gavre (al. PenangLion) (talk) 04:25, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Didn't I just acknowledge that SIJORI has been rebranded so we need to find other content to write JB metro? And since there's no official definition for JB metro., I suggest to write "JB, together, with Iskandar Puteri, Pasir Gudang, Kulai and OTHER AREAS, forms one of the largest urban conurbations in the country and the core of Iskandar Malaysia", in Johor Bahru page. Malaysia Skyline (talk) 05:07, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

WP:QS says that "Questionable sources are those that have a poor reputation for checking the facts, lack meaningful editorial oversight, or have an apparent conflict of interest, including relying heavily on unsubstantiated gossip, rumor, or personal opinion."

You suggested writing "JB, together, with Iskandar Puteri, Pasir Gudang, Kulai and OTHER AREAS, forms one of the largest urban conurbation in the country". Based on what? What is the definition of JB's metropolitan area? What is your source? Is there an actual verifiable source to back your statement? Or it is just personal opinion? Hearsay?

I second PenangLion on this. Please provide concrete sourcing, before making as yet unverified suggestion or shifting goal posts for your claims. Corncaker (talk) 06:18, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Calm down~~Don't be so aggressive~~Let's make this discussion page a PEACEFUL platform, rather than a place full of sour grapes.

Or should I write JB metro. is the least populous metropolitan in Malaysia and even in the world? I think by writing this would satisfy you, as isn't it what you want to see is Penang being superior than JB, though in reality is the REVERSE? Malaysia Skyline (talk) 06:52, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Did I say anything about Penang or JB being superior? More conjecture.

Wikipedia is not for publishing your own, unsubstantiated thoughts.

Until and unless you could come up with solid evidence or sources to back up your claims, your claims are just that. Claims. Unverified. Corncaker (talk) 07:04, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Okay, before that, what would you suggest to write for JB metropolitan? I want to hear your views first. I feel this is more like a Q&A session, rather than a formal discussion. How would you like to write in JB page and Penang page based on solid evidence or sources?

Remember that Wikipedia is not for publishing your own, unsubstantiated thoughts. Malaysia Skyline (talk) 07:09, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Couldn't find any? It only speaks how you are unable to do a simple Google search then!

If you still have the mental capacity, go read Cities, People & The Economy A Study on Positioning Penang, way back in 2010.

The other thing absent other than your research, is your civility. Corncaker (talk) 07:47, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

OMG, that one was published by World Bank, not even a government authority! They may even just copied what was written in Wikipedia during publication! OMG! Can't do a simple google search? OMG! Malaysia Skyline (talk) 07:52, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

OMG! Can't even do simple reading! Is that your level of education? What is Khazanah Nasional doing in the report? Are you saying you have difficulty in reading and comprehension? Pathetic! Corncaker (talk) 08:07, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, my highest level of education is just kindergarten. But you know what, I could still understand that this publication is a research paper, not a government official plan/blueprint/draft/document. LOL Malaysia Skyline (talk) 08:18, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

LOL by your implications that Khazanah Nasional, linked to the Malaysian government, got its facts wrong!

The National Physical Plan is credited in the document. With source. Cherry picking much? Corncaker (talk) 09:06, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Tell me first, what is a research paper? And what is a goverment plan/blueprint/draft? Malaysia Skyline (talk) 10:12, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

What I found in the pdf:

"Envisaged in the National Physical Plan (NPP) of Malaysia, the George Town Conurbation (GTC) consists of the highlyurbanised Penang Island, Seberang Prai, Sungai Petani, Kulim and the surrounding areas (see map)..."

According to Cambridge dictionary, envisage: to imagine or expect something in the future, especially something good.

See it? Malaysia Skyline (talk) 08:23, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

I want a formal statement from federal government, preferably from a blueprint or document, like what they did for Greater Kuching and Greater KL. Malaysia Skyline (talk) 07:54, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Also, I couldn't find any GOVERNMENT sources from the Internet that indicates Sungai Petani, Kulim, Pekan Baru and others are within Greater Penang. I want the latest andsolid evidence or sources!

Again, Wikipedia is not for publishing your own, unsubstantiated thoughts. Malaysia Skyline (talk) 07:11, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

For Greater Kuching and Greater KL, I could find the relevant info from GOVERNMENT announcement or documents. For Greater Penang?

solid evidence or sources, please! Malaysia Skyline (talk) 07:17, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Its been known that Iskandar Malaysia has underwent a major expansion in size in February 2019.

Iskandar Malaysia's official boundaries
Largest settlement		Land area	Census figures
			2020	2010
Johor Bahru		1,064	858,118	497,097
Iskandar Puteri			575,977	529,074
Pasir Gudang			312,437	46,571
Kulai		753	294,156	234,532
Pontian (4 mukims)	Pekan Nanas	u/k	1,003	u/k
	Jeram Batu	u/k	32,457	u/k
	Serkat	u/k	9,268	u/k
	Sungai Karang	u/k	2,130	u/k
Total		2,217	2,085,546	1,307,274

Iskandar Malaysia's supposed 2019 expansion
Largest settlement		Land area	Census figures
			2020	2010
Johor Bahru		1,064	858,118	497,097
Iskandar Puteri			575,977	529,074
Pasir Gudang			312,437	46,571
Kulai		753	294,156	234,532
Simpang Renggam		~1,244	88,047	u/k
Pengerang		1,288	91,626	u/k
Pontian (4 mukims)	Pekan Nanas	u/k	1,003	u/k
	Jeram Batu	u/k	32,457	u/k
	Serkat	u/k	9,268	u/k
	Sungai Karang	u/k	2,130	u/k
Total		4,749	2,265,219	1,307,274

But neither conditions would make Johor Bahru's metropolitan area higher than George Town's. Even if the entire Pontian and Kluang district is included, it won't surpass 2.6 million. Johor Bahru's metropolitan area wouldn't even exist even if SIJORI is a metropolitan area, because that would be under Singapore rather than Malaysia's, thereby making the inclusion of JB as a separate metropolitan area completely redundant. (gavre (al. PenangLion) (talk) 05:50, 13 June 2023 (UTC))

Here we go again, I am not sure for how many times I need to reiterate. But yeah, NONE of us here have any qualification to define the boundary for JB metro., unless you are from the government body and making such announcement. The current status and territory of JB metro. is AMBIGUOUS, there is no such thing as Greater JB, no one ever had a plan for that. Iskandar Malaysia is not an urban agglomeration, and SIJORI is defunct. That's why I put "other areas" in JB page owing to that ambiguity. No one here has a right to define the border, it may include Kota Tinggi, Kluang, Batu Pahat and even part of Singapore, if not the whole SG. Being ambiguous by writing "other areas" is the best approach to deal with the current ambiguity. Malaysia Skyline (talk) 06:48, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

References

Good Article status voided due to sockpuppetry

Per a consensus from the discussion at WT:GAN#Penang and George Town, Penang was promoted to GA via deceptive sockpuppetry, the GA review by Semi-auto, a sockpuppet of nominator Vnonymous, has been voided, and the GA status revoked. Since there is no way of directly reflecting this in Article history, I have noted it as a GA reassessment resulting in a delisting, as the closest approximation of what was done, and linking to this section so there is a trail that can be followed explaining what happened and why the action was taken.

The article can always be nominated in future to be a GA using the normal process. For now, however, its GA status is revoked. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:23, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Well, it's an FA now, in the top 0.09 percent. 750h+ 13:56, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Add "other uses" template?

Given that there are quite the handful of places named Georgetown or George Town, I think we should add the "other uses" template linking to Georgetown. Just a suggestion. HelloTHERE123456 (talk) 00:50, 24 May 2024 (UTC)