Talk:Francis Bacon (artist)/Archive 1

Later Life Section

Shall we elaborate on the "Later Life" section? I know there is another article but this short paragraph made the period after Dyer died so trivial, critiques believe this period is as important as any of his earlier period if not more, mainly the formal establishment of the triptych format and the change of inspiration, focus/muse?

Thank you.

Uli3819 (talk) 16:45, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

The article is totally lop sided, too much on the peiod up to the late 1950s, and little thereafter. I think what happened is the guy who wrote most of it just gave up and moved at that point. IMO, Bacon's best work is from Dyer's death to the Study for a Self-Portrait—Triptych, 1985–86, so I agree with you. Good luck with it though, most seem more interested in bickering about nationality to care about actual content. Ceoil (talk) 18:17, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

"Old Georgian" Dublin?

What does "Old Georgian Dublin" mean exactly? It seems to be a rather camp way of saying he was born in an old house maybe? I don't think it adds anything to the article, as it doesn't seem to me to mean anything really, unless there was a Georgian community in Dublin in 1909 that I don't know about. I don't see why it should not be changed to simply "born in Dublin".

84.203.3.237 (talk) 23:54, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

George Dyer's Age

Is there a reference to substantiate George Dyer's correct age? The article mentions Bacon first meeting "39 year old George Dyer" in 1964, yet I'm sure that in a BBC3 Arena Bacon special screened yesterday [1] it was said that Dyer was 37 when he died, which would have made him 30 at their first meeting - or am I mistaken?217.44.43.34 (talk) 13:17, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Hey, I was watching that too! Good footage of the Colony Room, and Belcher. 37 is correct, checks out with the sources. Ceoil (talk) 13:20, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

The Popes - dates and links

are said in the text to be from 1950 bu the article on the first portrait of pope innocent cites 1953, along with the summary bar at the top right hand side. It is also not clear when reading the article that a link to the web page for the paining is present in the summary bar; please could the mention in the text of the paining be turned into a link also, despite there already being one in the summary bar?Betaben (talk) 09:03, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

nationality again

fairly trivial issue but the current article states that Bacon was a Irish painter, but isn't he a British painter. I'm not sure what wikipedias poilcy on nationality is but although he was born in Ireland it was to english parents and he lived most of his life in london, associated with other london painters like Lucian Freud and Frank Auderbach (who are both decribed as british painters despite being born in other countries in their wikipedia articles). I would think its would be better to decribe him as a British painter born in Ireland or an Irish born British painter. How do other people feel about that?FSAB (talk) 19:17, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

See the archives, at length. You're right of course! Johnbod (talk) 19:44, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Ignite talk by the Curator of the Hugh Lane Barbara Dawson

Barbara Dawson talks about Francis Bacon at Ignite Dublin 2 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.101.33.150 (talk) 22:45, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Picture?

It seems like most (an unscientific sampling done by myself) of articles on famous painters have at least one picture of the painter him/herself. Is it possible to get a photo of Bacon (or at least a painting, like the one done by Lucian Freud) to put on the page? 24.143.39.185 (talk) 03:35, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Was he gay?

I wouldn't usually care about a person's sexual orientation, but being someone unfamiliar with the artist and reading through the article, it seems contributors and literature have been very implicit towards this topic to the point of refusing to approach it in a straightforward manner or trying to hide the fact. But this only serves to create a lot of ambiguity and confusion, even if no one knows for sure this should be made clear? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.15.74.154 (talk) 10:53, 28 July 2008 (UTC) He was very openly gay and talked about it freely during his interveiw with the BBC —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.86.148.246 (talk) 16:30, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

What movement was Bacon really a part of?

In "The Colony Room" section, the sentence that David Sylvester was wrong in..."but had erroneously perceived it to be a form of Expressionism" needs to be cited. The MoMA, where Painting is located, refers to Bacon as a Post-War Expressionist.* In this article, he is cited as a figurative painter, which doesn't describe his work well enough. Searching around, too, he is repeatedly referred to as either an Abstract Expressionist or a Post-War Expressionist.

• Here is the PDF from the MoMA:

http://www.moma.org/about_moma/press/2004/P_S_Main.pdf

Jeni Mc 16:14, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Francis Bacon should definitely not be listed as a "figurative" painter. In his interviews with David Sylvester, "The Brutality of Fact: Interviews with Francis Bacon 1962-1979" (New York: Thames and Hudson, 1987), he is quite critical of figurative art. Figurative art is representational art. Bacon is not a representational artist. The difference between figural and figurative is brought out by Jean-François Lyotard in his "Libidinal Economy" as well as in Gilles Deleuze's book on Bacon, "Francis Bacon: The Logic of Sensation." Figurative relates to narrative. Bacon's art does not seek to tell a story or narrate. He is a figural artist or an abstract artist, but not a figurative one. Lemomo (talk) 18:08, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Bacon defined himself as a figurative painter in the 1985 South Bank Show special (at about 6.30 in this clip). Nic Dafis (talk) 12:28, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

A note on title/date forms

I have used the title form

Painting. 1946

throughout. This is preferable to

Painting (1946)

since (although not part of the title) the date is crucial in distinguishing it from

Painting. 1950

for instance, and is not a mere adjunct.

Painting, 1946

is wrong as the title is "Painting". The forms

Painting, 1946

and

Painting 1946

are also correct but less clear. If applied it should be done throughout the article to avoid confusion. -- User:82.43.154.23 03:21, 27 September 2005

Well I agree that the style should be consistent. I suspect that it isn't something that is covered by the Manual of Style yet. In general I prefer the second form, however, it is a subject that is better discussed at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Visual arts, since this would apply to many arts related articles. -- Solipsist 08:47, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

The second form seems to be the 'house style' here. I would argue for a special case to be allowed for the MoMA painting, which is spoken of as "Painting 1946" even though the title is "Painting". I propose that the last form, which is that of the 1964 catalogue raisonné, be used in this case. 82.43.154.23 13:46, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

On reflection, I have brought Painting (1946) into conformity with the rest of the article. 82.43.154.23 12:39, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

There could well be a case for making an exception for some paintings with generic names. It can be particularly tricky to identify the work of some modern artists who steadfastly refuse to title their work anything other than 'untitled' — especially when they are likely to have done several 'untitled's in the same year. I often see Roman numerals being applied in such cases, for example

Untitled IX (1992), oil on canvas.

but I have never been sure whether its the artist or the gallery who added the Roman numerals.

Similar problems occur with many medieval canvases where several titles might apply (most of them derived from different sources at much later dates). In those cases the size of the painting is also usually used to help identify a specific painting.

My impression is that the most common long format when refering to works of art is;

Artist, Title, (date) width x height, medium, collection.

but you still see plenty of variations. -- Solipsist 15:59, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Title

When I entered Francis Bacon in Wiki search, only the 17thC. philosopher came up - needs disambiguation.--shtove 23:24, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Biography and Summary of Painting extends only though 1950s. "Later Life" section is too brief. Not enough focus on actual painting

I think the Biographical detail is fantastic, but it abruptly stops in the early 50's, and I don't think that someone learning about Bacon for the first time would want to wade through the words that lead up to influences...he was an artist...and there is little discussion of technique... User:Gareth E Kegg 22:49, 19 October 2005

Thank-you for my share of the compliment, but I have only been revising this article since 21/9/05. I do plan to go on into the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s, and summarize the 1980s and 1990s as well; I plan to have a section on his technique, one on the interviews with Sylvester, and a separate article on the estate. Please do go ahead and start any of these you are able and willing to. The point is well made about a neopyhte coming to this article, but, a few pictures of major works, of Three Studies for Figures at the Base of a Crucifixion and Painting (1946) in particular, would help. Copyright is with the Estate but may be judged 'fair use' in this context(?). The 'Contents' near the top of the article allows anyone to skip the earlier sections without the need to wade.(82.43.154.23 01:47, 20 October 2005 (UTC))

At some point in the early/mid 50s, Bacon bought a house in Queen's Road in the village of Wivenhoe, Essex. I recall Nicholas Butler writing about this in his book, "The Story of Wivenhoe", but unfortunately my copy has gone walkabout. Does anyone have further details? Daen 15:02, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I found it - it was a one-line reference from the Wivenhoe Town Council guide to the village from 1993, not Nick Butler. Wirth-Miller lived in the village in the early 50s, and Bacon spent time in a "holiday cottage" in Queen's Road. Daen 13:56, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I was surprised there was no mention of Bacon's homosexuality, save an oblique reference in a footnote, in this article. Perhaps this would be an appropriate area to expand upon, at least in passing in the painter's basic history.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Catachrestic (talk • contribs) 00:10, 18 May 2006 (UTC).

There is a mention of his relationship with George Dyer in the "Later Life" section. Jeni Mc 15:55, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion, Bacon truly only began to perfect his definitive formal scheme BEGINNING in the early 1960s. Though his painting as a whole is one of the most self-consistent and chronologically progressive oeuvres of any 20th century artist, and though the central compositional themes are present from early on in a generative form, his consummate command of the triptych and of his idiosyncratic system of distortions wasn't achieved until at least 1960...from thereafter - right up through the early 1990s - it continued to refine itself in a brilliant, yet very self-conscious manner. The article ABSOLUTELY NEEDS TO BE EXPANDED to cover these years and, in my opinion, make them central. Just because the stupid 1944 Three Studies for Figures at the Base of a Crucifixion and the Painting 1946 were so widely publicized early on by a few major critics (notably, they were both acquired decades ago by the MoMA), they have superseded the far more impressive and important works of his last 4 decades. This should be remedied. 12:28, 27 July 2009 (CBK)

Feature article?

I think this is a great article. Though "Bacon's legacy" could be expanded... Selfinformation 17:35, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Theres one thing as too much info and optimal infomation, after a quick review i find the article to be a little indulgent and giving perhaps too much info that is not properly placed or ordered. Certainly not optimal information me thinks.

Restructure

I'd like to move the discussion of specific painting to dedicated articles, leaving this page for purely biographical info. I think this is a great article as is, but perhalps could be expanded into an excellent FB category. --Coil00 23:57, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Question about grammar in intro paragraph

He also created "an" portrait of Michele Leiris? Surely this is incorrect, or is there some obscure "an" rule I am overlooking?

"Anglo-Irish"

I object to the term Anglo-Irish being used in the opening paragraph.By that logic Oasis and most members of the Beatles should be classified as Hiberno-Saxon. Ireland has suffered enough devision and fragmenation.A note in the biographical section stating that Bacon was of English parentage should suffice. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.101.222.28 (talk) 21:15, 6 April 2007 (UTC).

I think its fine, by every definition of the term Bacon was Anglo-Irish. He was born in Dublin to Protestant English parents who often travelled back and forth between the two islands. The term is widely used, and not in the least derogatory. Ceoil 19:28, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Let's call him British and everybody will be happy on the other side of the island!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.157.15.81 (talk) 21:38, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

• The trouble is Anglo-Irish has an established meaning whichy fits Bacon very well, whereas Hiberno-Saxon has one which doesn't fit Oasis in the slightest. In this section, & the one below there is a clear concensus to restore something on what he regarded as his identity, so I will put "British" back. Johnbod (talk) 20:31, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd suggest that Hiberno-British is a viable category in cases where we want to say that a person is more Irish than British. But Bacon's circumstances seem to indicate the Anglo-Irish term more fitting. Even then, in his case this may give away too much to Irishness, so perhaps the most accurate description is the more cumbersome: 'English painter born in Ireland'. Or if that cuts out too much Irishness, then: 'English painter born and largely raised in Ireland'. Note also that to call him an 'Irish born British painter' subsumes his Englishness! What is certain is that the reference to him as an 'Irish' painter in the disambiguation section is obviously wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.129.67.165 (talk) 10:46, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

"Being Irish"

The article indicates that Bacon was born to English parents, but then states later that Straffan Lodge in Naas, County Kildare, was the birthplace of both parents. Unless I misread it, the article supports the theory that someone born in one country of parents, both of whom were born in that same country is actually partially of a different country. Does the writer know how far back one has to go into Bacon's family history to actually find someone born in England?

I think they'll try to do that soon!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.157.15.81 (talk) 21:35, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

From my reading of Bacon's bigraphies he considered himself British, so why not just call him that? "Irish born Briton" perhaps? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.3.203.152 (talk) 14:42, 16 June 2008 (UTC) The fact that his parents were English and he spent his childhood and early teens between the two countries indicates that it would be mistaken to say that he is Irish in the way that someone who was born in Ireland of Irish parents and remained in Ireland could be. The distinction is emphasised by the fact that he chose to live in England from his late teens till the end of his life. The most accurate description would be that he was English and born in Ireland, although the more general specification of 'Anglo-Irish' would perhaps be fairer to both inheritances. Bacon's case is clearly distinct from the case of Oasis given that they are English and choose to live in England despite their preferring to call themselves Irish. Choice is perhaps the most precise indicator of personal identity. Nonetheless, the Hiberno-English epithet may well be an entirely suitable term for them. Or English with Irish parents, although this may be unacceptable so 'Irish musicians with Irish parents born in England and spent entire lives in England' might be more suitable? Note that the difference between 'Hiberno-English' and 'Anglo-Irish' is that as with that term it indicates primacy of influence to the former culture, so we have a new point of contest.194.129.67.166 (talk) 16:35, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

• "Irish born British" or "Anglo-Irish" would both do - it should not be left as it is. Johnbod (talk) 20:27, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Should The President of Ireland or Bobby Sands having been born in Northern Ireland be considered Anglo-Irish? Or a British born Irish? I think the legal status defines the nationality, not the birthplace. What passport did Bacon travel on? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 15.203.169.106 (talk) 10:36, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia policy is WP:V, WP:NPOV and WP:NOR, i.e. follow what reliable sources say: don't try to work it out yourself. Ty 12:40, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Until very recently, the Irish constitution began "The territory of the Republic is the whole island of Ireland" and those born in Northern Ireland have always qualified automatically for Irish passports, and still do. Johnbod (talk) 13:01, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't think where someone is born is sufficient to determine their national identity. If either Bacon or his parents were born in Ireland that doesn't automatically make them or anyone else Irish. Oasis's somewhat unlikely claim that they are in fact Irish is not undermined by the fact that they were born in England, it is undermined by the fact that they are so obviously parochially Mancunian. Legal status is also inadequate as a criterion as this could hinge on a number of factors.194.129.67.165 (talk) 17:22, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

If a person is born in Ireland and their parents were also born in Ireland, they are Irish. I do not think there is anything ambiguous about this. The fact that going back farther his family were of British descent is already reflected by his surname. To belabour this point, the anglo saxons came from Germany, so should we call him German British Irish? Actually humans are thought to have originated in Africa, so maybe we should include that also if we are to retrace everyones family tree. 147.114.226.175 (talk) 10:04, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

They are "Irish-born", which we say. You may know the Duke of Wellington's comment on his similar situation. Johnbod (talk) 10:06, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Roughly how many generations of a family have to be born in a country for them to be considered of that nationality? Should we dig through the rest of Wikipedia and change the nationality of every famous British person who does not have a British surname? The opening paragraph details his upbringing and how much time he spent in various countries. 147.114.226.175 (talk) 10:17, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

There are long established guidelines on how people's national identities are described. The key thing is how they identified themselves, and there appears to be no evidence Bacon regarded himself as Irish. Equally Henry Kissinger is not German, but German-born. And so on. See also Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies). Johnbod (talk) 10:22, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Has anybody got any sources on this? Ty 10:35, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

"English painter, born in Dublin." from Oxford Art Online (subscription required or membership of a subscribing public library). Ty 10:39, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Getty Union Name List has "English painter" too [2] Johnbod (talk) 10:53, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Many Irish artists left the country and did not like the place, that does not make them any less Irish. Sean O'Casey is a good example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_O%27Casey#England

Oscar Wilde had a very similar background to Bacon and is undisputed as being Irish. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_wilde

147.114.226.175 (talk) 10:46, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I think it is quite a reasonable arguement that considering he was born in Ireland to parents who were also born in Ireland but of English descent, and he lived there until age 16, that the article should state that he is Irish. The burden of proof is on those who claim that spending most of your life in another country changes your nationality. 147.114.226.175 (talk) 10:55, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

It is worthwhile noting that his British born Grandparents also lived in Ireland. 147.114.226.175 (talk) 10:59, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

If you want to contribute to wikipedia, you have to follow wikipedia policies, which do not allow personal opinion and deduction. You have to find a reliable source to validate content. There are two sources above specifically for Bacon. Find something as valid that differs; then we can move forward in the discussion. Otherwise, we go by the sources we have. Ty 10:59, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

OK, here you go. http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:O_tKnSIrE-8J:www.artnet.com/artist/1799/francis-bacon.html+francis+bacon+irish&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=uk and http://www.hughlane.ie/francis_bacons_studio.php?type=Bacon%92s+Youth&heading=Bacon%92s+Life&rsno=2 and http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:kUIg3FVjaZ8J:20thcenturyart.suite101.com/article.cfm/francis_bacon_painter+francis+bacon+irish&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=11&gl=uk. So we have the fact that he was born in Ireland, lived there for sixteen years, his parents were Irish, and his British grandparents lived in Ireland, and a link describing him as an Irish painter. On the other side, we have the fact that he lived in Britain for most of his life, and a witty line from the Duke of Wellington to make him British. 147.114.226.175 (talk) 11:30, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Neither of the websiters calling him Irish are very authoritative compared to Getty and Oxford, and the Hugh Lane Gallery notably refrains from calling him Irish, and calls his parents English. Hugh Lane himself is an interesting comparison - brought up & living his adult life in England, but identifying as Irish, which is what we call him. Johnbod (talk) 11:46, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Can you explain to me how this case differs from Oscar Wilde? Should WB Yeats be classified as British also considering he is of English descent, and lived for a while in London? Oxford could be accused as being a biased party being a British University. It appears that you refuse to consider any of the facts given. His birth in Ireland and youth spent there should be enough. Then you ask for links, they have been provided, then you claim that he did not feel Irish, what is this based upon?

Sting, for example, claims to be a citizen of the world. http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&safe=active&q=sting+%22citizen+of+the+world%22&meta= but I note on Wikipedia he is listed as English. This is probably because he was born in England. 147.114.226.175 (talk) 12:02, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

You have to be accurate to sources. Lane does not say he was Irish. We know he was born in Ireland: that is not at issue. Questions about other people won't help here. We're not dealing with them. You need something more reliable than artnet. "His birth in Ireland and youth spent there should be enough." No, that's just an opinion. Find the references. Ty 12:17, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Earlier I edited the article to state that he was Irish, but lived most of his life in the UK, where he did most of his painting. Do you not think that is a more accurate description than what is currently on the article. It seems that other than providing a link (which I dispute) that says he is British, you have not put forth any reasonable arguement for his Britishness. Based on what is he British?

Above it is argued that Oasis, who are British born, but of Irish descent, but who have said in interviews that they are Irish, remain British. (For the record I agree that they are British) 147.114.226.173 (talk) 12:33, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Personally I think Anglo-Irish would be a useful term to introduce, but concensus was against this above. Johnbod (talk) 12:53, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict - I was replying to 147.114.226.173) Wikipedia is not edited by argument, but by sources. Find what they say: that's the only thing that counts. Reference work Artists in Britain since 1945 just says "born in Dublish of English parents". Tate gallery says the same. The New York Times calls him British[3] - see 2 extracts in the "Highlights from the archive" section. Adrian Searle in The Guardian calls him "famous British painter.[4] Ty 13:04, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

You are standing on shaky grounds my friend, when you have to point out that you are avoiding the use of logic and argument. I have provided links that refer to him as Irish, and it is not in dispute that he was born and raised in Ireland, but did have British grandparents. He is as British as the Elgin Marbles are. I think this article should be flagged stating that the facts are disputed and maybe a moderator should step in.147.114.226.175 (talk) 13:12, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

The Guardian article you linked to states. "Francis Bacon, the Irish-born painter whose abstract images of psychological and physical brutality made him one of the most exalted, and most disliked artists of the postwar era" At no point in the piece does it call him British. Here is a link to a Telegraph article that refers to Oscar Wilde as a "Great British Wit" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1566243/Oscar-Wilde-voted-greatest-British-wit.html Oscar was born in Dublin, much like Francis Bacon, and even though the british may wish to claim them, both are still Irish. 147.114.226.175 (talk) 13:27, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Guardian article paragraph 10: "Protestant Irish-born 99 years ago, Bacon grew to be the most famous British painter of the latter half of the 20th century." Ty 13:31, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

WP:VERIFY is what counts here. Find reliable sources. Lane only says: "Francis Bacon was born at 63 Lower Baggot Street, Dublin on 28 October 1909, of English parentage". That leaves artnet. Ty 13:32, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

OK, here you go. http://encyclopedia.farlex.com/Bacon,+Francis+(painter)

http://www.rte.ie/arts/2008/0207/baconf.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Is_the_Devil:_Study_for_a_Portrait_of_Francis_Bacon

http://www.thecnj.com/review/2008/100208/feature100208_01.html

http://www.theartwolf.com/self-portraits/bacon-self-portrait.htm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/2008/aug/10/art

How many more do you need? Note that the last article makes the same mistake as you and refers to him as British once, but Irish about five times. Its also nice to see one of his friends saying "He was very gracious and kind, that was one of his Irish qualities."

What do we do now, should we correct this article? 147.114.226.175 (talk) 13:52, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Not sure what to make of the last one, where a close friend describes him as "best of British". Nice piece though. RTE think he is Irish, but the rest are not authoritative in any sense. Johnbod (talk) 14:45, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

So using arguement and logic (which I know you guys like to disregard), he is clearly Irish, or at least as Irish as Oscar Wilde. There are numerous articles describing him as an Irish Painter, and a friend talks about his Irish qualities (In a British Newspaper). The Irish national Broadcaster (RTE) describes him as Irish. On the other hand he did live most of his life in London. I propose that the wording is changed to

- Francis Bacon (28 October 1909 – 28 April 1992) was an Irish- born figurative painter, who lived in the UK from the age of 16. He was a collateral descendant of the Elizabethan philosopher Francis Bacon. His artwork is known for its bold, austere, and often grotesque or nightmarish imagery. -

After that the article picks up describing his ancestory, youth and where he lived during his life. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.114.226.175 (talk) 15:27, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Don't be sarcastic. It's not appreciated round here. What we actually have is a conflict of sources, some saying he is British and others Irish. When that occurs, we do not choose, but represent both viewpoints with the appropriate reference(s) given, and let the reader decide for themselves. What is not in dispute, I believe, is that he had English parents and was born in Ireland, so that should be stated, and the difference over nationality explained. What passport did he have? That surely is his nationality. Ty 15:34, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Let us be clear. The article states that Straffan Lodge in Naas, County Kildare(Which is in Ireland), was the birthplace of both parents. His grandparents were British born.

On the topic of sarcasm, it would appear that facts are what are not appreciated around here. I am the last in a long line of people who have made this point, most of whom have been chased away by people who have more time to revert the article to their point of view than the objectors.147.114.226.175 (talk) 15:47, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

You are in a sense correct. A core non-negotiable policy is WP:V (emphasis in the original):

The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or the material may be removed.

Anyone who doesn't respect this policy is not going to get on well here. As I keep on saying, we go by what reliable sources say, not what we have worked out ourselves as being right. Ty 15:57, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Fortunately I have provided a series of reliable sources. There is a long history of Irish people being mistakenly refered to as British. The Oscar Wilde Telegraph article above is a good example. The Irish band U2 are often mistakenly refered to as British also. Just because people can find articles that mistakenly think that Republic of Ireland is part of Britain, does not mean that its citizens should be refered to as British. It is clear that the sources you link to are making this mistake, by the underlying fact that Bacon was actually born in Ireland. Canadians are often mistakenly identified as Americans, and New Zealanders mistakenly identified as Australian. The giveaway is if the subject is also refered to as born and raised in Toronto or Aukland. There is nothing confusing here about Bacons nationality. 147.114.226.175 (talk) 16:11, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

That form of interpretation of sources is expressly forbidden on wikipedia per WP:NOR. It would help if you read the editing policies and understand them if you want to engage in complex editing debates. Also, it does not follow necessarily that someone born in country assumes that nationality. Ty 16:59, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

PS You might like to get a user name to avoid any possible complication with (presumably) your employer, whose address you are editing from. Ty 17:02, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Nationality is the legal relationship between state and citizen; it is also a concept or self-view unbound by legal niceties.

Usually citizenship is automatically conferred by the country of birth. After part of a country becomes independent one has to look at the nationality legislation of the old and new countries to determine the subsequent nationality of those born before the split.

The Estate of the late Francis Bacon’s website records that Francis Bacon was born in Dublin in 1909 the second of five children born to English parents who had recently settled in Ireland and that he had no Irish blood ties. His father was actually born in Adelaide Australia to an English father and an Australian mother and educated in England; he was nevertheless an Englishman. Location of birth in the British Empire was not a disqualification for Englishness or Scottishness or Welshness or Irishness or Britishness.

Francis Bacon was born a British Citizen, like all others born in Ireland in 1909. He moved with his family to London in 1914. After the First World War ended in 1918 the family moved back and forth between England and Ireland although Francis Bacon spent his most prolonged period of education in England. When in Ireland the family mixed with the Protestant gentry and would have felt threatened by the violent events leading to Irish independence and the civil war.

Notwithstanding the independence of the Irish Free State in 1922 Bacon remained a British Citizen as the previous citizenship law continued in operation by virtue of the Dominion status of the IFS until repealed by the IFS in 1935.

After 1935 his British citizenship continued to be recognised by the British Government. Section 5 of the Ireland Act 1949 confirmed British Citizenship on the basis that (a) he was born in Ireland before 6 December 1922 (b) he was domiciled outside the Republic of Ireland on that date (domicile of a child is that of its father) (c) he was ordinarily resident outside the Republic of Ireland from 1935 to 1948 and (d) he had not registered as an Irish citizen under Irish legislation. In the absence of evidence of registration as an Irish Citizen, (his Estate does not mention it) Francis Bacon remained a British Citizen.

What was his own view of his nationality - not just where he happened to be born or (partly) brought up as a child?

In 1954 he exhibited in the British Pavilion at the Venice Biennale. Did he exhibit for the Irish anywhere?

In an unbroadcast 1965 BBC television interview now on the BBC website at http://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/bacon/index.shtml Francis Bacon listens carefully as he is described as "the most influential living English painter, perhaps the most influential English painter for a hundred years". He did not question these statements but had the opportunity to do so. Indeed he appears rather proud of them.

Bacon was subsequently interviewed (and approved the script) for a BBC television programme devoted to his work broadcast in 1966, one in a series on living British artists and advertised as such.

In both programmes Bacon speaks with a perfect and refined English accent.

In the absence of evidence of similar links to Ireland on both counts - legal relationship and self view - Francis Bacon qualifies to be described as a British, specifically English, artist. If the place of his birth is worth mentioning then a statement he was born in Ireland is accurate but it would not affect or reflect his nationality. It is not right to describe someone as Irish just because they were born in Ireland; being Irish is alot more than that. Lawfullymine (talk) 23:16, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Some telling points. I note though that someone has since anonymously altered the disambiguation page and the opening of this page to state that Bacon is Irish. Entertainingly, a concession to the opinion that he is British or English is put in an accompanying footnote rather than given equal status. I have altered both to state that Bacon's nationality is contested/disputed. This seems to be the only thing agreed on. I recommend a new page dedicated to the dispute is made therefore.194.129.67.165 (talk) 18:40, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

There is no evidence that Bacon ever thought of himself as Irish or Anglo-Irish.

Arbitrary break

From Michael Peppiatt's (definative) bio: "Both parents were English by origion and had no Irish blood. Eddy [Bacon's father] was born in...South Australia to an English father [of Welsh extraction] and an Austrialian mother." Bacon had a complicated relationshiop with Ireland (speaking as a Paddy myself); while he never revisited or had any inkling to revisit, he put down some of his more rogueish personality traits to his Irish upbringing, but in an off hand way. He spoke of having an "Irish fear of death", although who knows what that means, and his habit of drinking and gambling heavily he credited to the Irish influence on his personality. And that is as far as it went, as recorded by published crediable sources. His father started out in the British army, and served in Irl before he fought in the Boer war, and later in the pubs of Newcastle. Bacon sr. moved back to Ireland only because he had good memories of killing foxes there and because it would cost "considerably less to set himself up" here than in England. Hmm, small wonder that the family was subject to a lot of intimidation during the troubles of the time. Ceoil ^sláinte 22:44, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Does the biog define Bacon as being Irish or English/British? Ty 23:44, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I've never seen a bio define Bacon as anything other than an 'Englishman born in Ireland'. As I say he used his Irish birth to explain his 'bad' habits, and I would guess his 'hardness' came in part from, among many other factors, an English childhood in the enviroment of the Irish troubles. He seemed to like the Irish temprament and feckleness, and used it to cast himself as a rogue when it suited. The fact that he never revisited the country is more due to his complete break with his father and not wanting to re tread bad memories, I would say. David Sylvester prodded him extensively on his Irishness and what it meant to him, but Bacon was unwilling to share his thoughts byond the flippant. Bastard. Ceoil ^sláinte 08:44, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

By the way, his upbringing is covered in part Bragg's 1984(?) south bank show. If any non ips want to see it and have skpe and would like to see a drunken Bacon flirt with Melvin in the Tate and play footsie with him in the colony room; mail me. Ceoil ^sláinte 09:04, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Would it be agreeable to everyone to say that he was born in Ireland of English parents, and that he is described as Irish in some sources and British in others? Ty 23:17, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

It should at least be "British in most, but Irish in some sources", though frankly I'm far from sure it is a move in the direction of accuracy. And his parents were actually (we say) born in Ireland, though no Irish sources seem keen to claim them .... Johnbod (talk) 01:58, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Well in that case, we come back to British artist born of English parents in Ireland with a footnote that says some sources describe him as Irish. Ty 07:06, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Why not just call him Anglo-Irish and be done with it? Peter morrell 07:20, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I have suggested that at points above, but he doesn't really fit the term, as he was er, too English to be Anglo-Irish - his grandparents were English, not from old Ascendancy families. Johnbod (talk) 08:27, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

It would to forbidden as original research as that is the one thing the sources don't call him. We don't make up our own interpretation. We follow sources per WP:VERIFY. Where sources differ, we cite the majority one per WP:NPOV, and mention the minority (unless it is tiny minority, in which case it is ignored). Ty 08:40, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Here is the definition of Nationality http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=nationality the status of belonging to a particular nation by birth or naturalization. Any evidence of Bacon becoming a naturalized British citizen? Any information on what date he underwent this status change? I am sure it can be looked up. 147.114.226.173 (talk) 10:20, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

That's not the way wiki works. It's synthesis. Kindly follow policy if you want to edit here. This is becoming tedious. We work from sources. Ty 10:41, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Bacon, born in any case before Irish independence, would automatically have qualified for both passports (as would anyone born in his circumstances today too). If the biographies do not mention it, where exactly do you think it could be "looked up"? What we say about him in WW2 "Bacon, unfit for active service, volunteered for Civil Defence and worked full-time in the ARP (Air Raid Precautions) rescue service..." suggests strongly he was a British citizen. I take it you are not (unlike Coeil) Irish yourself, or you would know this stuff. Johnbod (talk) 14:55, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I do not see what is tedious about defining nationality considering that is what is being discussed. You have provided nothing to show that Bacon was British. It seems to me that you wish to quote policies to avoid having to make any legitamite policies in the hope that people will be worn down by your bureaucracy.

Just to keep you busy here are another 5 links. I know that logic is to be avoided here, and you demand links, but when they are provided no change is made. Good luck with hiding the sun behing one finger.

http://www.visual-arts-cork.com/irish-artists/francis-bacon.htm Francis Bacon (1909-1992) was an Irish figurative painter, influenced in his earlier years by Picasso

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-138482157.html Bringing home Bacon: the dark, twisted paintings of out Irish artist Francis Bacon hang in museums around the world, but it's the art he left at home that gets the attention in a fascinating new book.(

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0500510342/francisbacon-20 Francis Bacon's Studio lovingly takes stock of the late Irish artist's stacked canvases

http://artmagazine.arcadja.com/2008/09/30/the-damned-francis-bacon-at-the-tate-gallery/#hide As a modern Caravaggio, the Irish Francis Bacon has become a true icon of the damned artist. The art of painting, according to the Irish artist, now free and not forced to do reportages

http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/2008/aug/30/bacon.art Such was the context of Bacon's most famous paintings, the Popes, for - especially to an Irishman of Bacon's generation - the Pope, not the king or any prime minister or even a dictator's chief of police, is the ultimate authority figure.

147.114.226.175 (talk) 11:49, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

A quick glance through the Peppiatt book brings me to page 163 of the paperback issue, where it states "he deliberately cast himself as an inspired misfit from the wilds of an Irish stud farm. I am digging through to see if at any other place he views himself as Northern Irish, Scottish Welsh or English 147.114.226.175 (talk) 12:05, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

The Peppiatt book again. Pages 28 - 29 of the paperback edition. Bacon speaks of his first time in Berlin and the Caberets he visited and the freedom and directness with which homosexuality was treated. He says " I had never seen anything like it, of course , having been brought up in Ireland, and it excited me enormously.

It is clear from the pieces that I have posted both today and on Friday that 1) he was born in Ireland. 2) he liked to be viewed as being from the wilds of an Irish stud farm, he claimed to have been brought up in Ireland, and a friend commented upon his Irish nature. I do not wish to start using logic here, but do the protectors of this article have any evidence of his Britishness? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.114.226.173 (talk) 12:29, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Nice piece here in the Independent. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/inside-the-mind-of-francis-bacon-446120.html The Irish figurative painter, known for his austere and sometimes nightmarish imagery —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.114.226.173 (talk) 12:57, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Not to flog a dead horse, but William Vaughans Encyclopedia of Artists ISBN-10: 0195215729 ISBN-13: 978-0195215724 lists Francis Bacon as... You guessed it, Irish. 147.114.226.173 (talk) 13:14, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Finally I have here a Sotheby's London Auction catalogue dated June 30th 1977 selling lot number 466 Study for a Portrait oil on canvas 78 in. by 54 in. The Property of an lrish Artist Francis Bacon. So it appears that during his life he was put forth as an Irish Artist by Sotheby's 147.114.226.173 (talk) 13:33, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

In which case why not amend the sentence to say "Bacon is classed by some writers as Irish [blah blah refs] and by others as British [blah blah refs]?" that we you are covered on both angles and have given the cites to back it al up. Peter morrell 13:39, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I am fairly new to wikipedia so do not know how to do this, but I think that maybe there should be a flag on the article stating that the facts of this article are in dispute, and directing people to the talk page until this dispute is resolved. Tyrenius seems reluctant to correct the wording of this article so maybe it should go to arbitration. 147.114.226.175 (talk) 14:01, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Nobody owns and controls this article. Have reported the matter to an admin. Peter morrell 14:24, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Arbitrary break 2

This article like all wiki articles has "protectors" to maintain its standard and prevent it being skewed against WP:NPOV.

Google searches for Francis Bacon bring up the following:

• "British artist" 8420 results[5]
• "Irish artist" 1960 results[6]
• "English artist" 1790 results[7]
• "Irish born" "British artist" 420 results[8]
• "Anglo-Irish artist" 25 results[9]

I'm not suggesting this is definitive, and google results can show a perpetuation of a falsity, but it is a starting point, and shows at least how he is most widely described, which is in line with what I have deduced from the conversation to date. It is certainly unacceptable and contrary to WP:NPOV to call him definitively "Irish", when so many sound sources call him "English" or "British". Here are some of them:

• "Irish born British" artcyclopedia[10]
• "Irish born British" Intute (University of Oxford and Manchester Metropolitan University)[11]
• "British figurative painter" Tate St Ives[12]
• "He has long been acknowledged as one of the greatest British painters of the 20th century" Joanna Pitman, The Times[13]
• "Francis Bacon. (British, 1909-1992)", Museum of Modern Art, New York[14]
• "Lucien Freud and Francis Bacon, the two giants of post-war British painting" The Economist [15]
• "British painter" Sarah Thornton, The Art Newspaper[16]
• "One of only two portraits of painter Francis Bacon by his friend and fellow British artist Lucian Freud" International Herald Tribune[17]
• Francis Bacon (British Artists), book title by Andrew Brighton, Princeton University Press[18]
• "British artist" results from The Daily Telegraph[19]
• "British painter" Britannica[20]
• "British painter" Getty Images[21]
• "Widely regarded as the best British painter since Turner" synopsis of The Gilded Gutter Life of Francis Bacon: The Authorized Biography by Daniel Farson. Waterstone's[22]
• "David Sylvester, who wrote of 'the most exciting and impressive first one-man show by an English painter since Francis Bacon in 1949'." (on Auerbach) Tate gallery.[23]
• "English painter, born in Dublin." from Oxford Art Online (subscription required)
• "English painter" Getty Union Name List[24]
• "Dubliners like to tell you that Francis Bacon, the foremost painter of his generation, was actually Irish, although it's a pretty tenuous claim to call him one of their own." Dublin (Lonely Planet City Guide), p.45, 6th revised edition.[25]

The facts are that he was born in Ireland to English parents. Rudyard Kipling was born in India to English parents, and is known as English, not Indian. Bacon should therefore be termed as English. However, British is the majority terminology and covers all eventualities, as Ireland was, at the time of Bacon's birth in 1909, part of Britain.

Ty 16:24, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

We have a lot of disputing sources, and it seems to me that what we need to do is come up with an opening sentance that is satisfactory to both sides of this arguement. Kipling frankly is not as good of an example as Oscar Wilde, as with Kipling there is a racial difference, and there is not a prominent biography in which Kipling refers to himself as Indian raised, and which claims he portrayed himself as being of India. Also the auction catalogue shows that during his life Bacon was put forth as Irish.

While Ireland was under invasion at the time of Bacons birth, irish people born at that time were not refered to as British, just as French people born during the German occupation during World War 2 are not put forth as Germans.

We do not seem to have a clear definition of nationality on Wikipedia, so I suggest that we side step it in the opening sentance and stick to the facts that we all agree with.

My suggestion is.

Francis Bacon (28 October 1909 – 28 April 1992) was an Irish-born figurative painter, who moved to England at the age of 16 where he lived for most of his productive life.

Frankly I would preferer Irish born and raised, but I will leave that out as a concession to your point of view, even though i do have a good source for that statement. 147.114.226.173 (talk) 07:23, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Protectors are NOT onwers and controllers who revert every sensible edit suggested by others. Or are they? The sentence previously suggested by me is perfectly adequate to cover the ambiguity of his blurred nationality. And cites can be added after Irish and British. If you are such a marvellous 'protector' then you should easily be capable of doing that! Peter morrell 07:26, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

It would help your case to avoid sarcasm and flippancy. The original contested suggestion (which another editor rejected) was "Francis Bacon was an Irish painter" or words to that effect. It's clear that is not in line with wikipedia use of sources. I didn't bring up the notion of "protector", but if that's how it's seen, then I explained the reason. We are, hopefully, working towards a consensus that meets the sources. What previous suggestion exactly of yours? You've made several. I suggest:

Francis Bacon (28 October 1909 – 28 April 1992) was an Irish-born British figurative painter.

This is what we've got at the moment and it meets the sources. Other details should go in the main text, not the lead. The main text can go into his early life in more depth. Ty 07:45, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

It does not meet all of the sources, it meets your sources. I am hoping that we can move towards a middle ground, or else just flag the article stating that the facts of the article are in dispute. This is not your article. 147.114.226.173 (talk) 07:52, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

It meets sources that are major ones and more substantial than the ones provided for alternatives. It is wikipedia's article. I have not edited it previously to my knowledge, just as a point of fact. I only got involved in this issue, because a minority viewpoint was being advanced contrary to WP:NPOV. Ty 09:34, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

My previous suggestion was this: "why not amend the sentence to say "Bacon is classed by some writers as Irish [cite some refs] and by others as British [cite other refs]" that way we/you are covered on both angles and have given good cites to back it all up." Surely this is reasonable to most people? Numerous such cites have been given on this talk page. Sarcastic yes, flippant no. thanks Peter morrell 08:23, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

"British" is the majority viewpoint and should be used per WP:NPOV. It covers (at the time of his birth) Irish, English and Anglo-Irish. Those can be usefully given in a footnote, or else explored in the main text. Ty 09:34, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

That sounds perfectly fine to me. thanks Peter morrell 09:40, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I think that most Irish people born under British occupation would disagree with you that they should be considered British. It is also clear from a quick search through Wikipedia, that no other Irish born people as of that time are clasified as being British. Anglo Irish has been suggested in the past as a replacement for British. Can we agree upon that. It would seem to encompass his Irish birth and upbringing along with his british heritage. 147.114.226.173 (talk) 09:59, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Well that is of course a very fair point. It needs clarifying so as not to upset Irish sensitivities. Peter morrell 11:04, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

So do we have agreement on switching British to Anglo Irish? 147.114.226.175 (talk) 11:40, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

It's OK by me but I think others were against the idea. Maybe they can chip in, thanks Peter morrell 12:03, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

"It is also clear from a quick search through Wikipedia, that no other Irish born people as of that time are clasified as being British." I would be amazed if this were true - Frank Pakenham, 7th Earl of Longford who actually was a classic Anglo-Irish figure, was probably born in Ireland, though no place is given. Anlgo-Irish has a specific meaning, and strictly Bacon is not Irish enough to meet it, as discussed above. The lead should be left as it is, I think, and any further explanation added below. The WW2 period should be explored further - he was "unfit for active service" we say, which presumably means he was called up and tested. Johnbod (talk) 12:15, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Could you explain how someone who was born and raised in ireland is not Irish enough. I presented a variety of links showing that he portrayed himself as irish and was viewed as being irish by his friends. Not irish enough is your point of view, and hardly accurate. 147.114.226.175 (talk) 13:19, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Explained just above. Try reading anglo-Irish, and other people's comments. Johnbod (talk) 13:23, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Could you reiterate your explanation in that case? All I have heard from you is a refusal to correct the piece. I was told first that links must be provided. they have been provided. I read through his Biography, dug out old auction catalogues. It appears that no evidence is enough for you. 147.114.226.175 (talk) 13:37, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Upon reading the Anglo Irish link provided, it seems like a reasonable description for Bacon. Could you explain on which grounds do you dispute it? 147.114.226.175 (talk) 13:39, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I suggest you reread the deate. There is no point in me reiterating if you are going to ignore it as you have all the comments of Ty, Coeuil and others above. Johnbod (talk) 13:42, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I have provided a wealth of information, and done hours of research. In order to settle this dispute, I am sure you can write a 5 line paragraph explaining your position. So far, you seem to refuse to correct the article simply because you refuse. If you do not have an arguement, then I will update the article. 147.114.226.173 (talk) 13:56, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I have added two new headings below so that the two claims can be compared.

From the article:""Anglo-Irish" was a term used historically to describe a privileged social class in Ireland, whose members were the descendants and successors of the Protestant Ascendancy... The "Anglo-Irish" landed elite replaced the Old English and Gaelic Irish Catholic aristocracies in the course of the 17th century as the ruling class in Ireland ....The term "Anglo-Irish" was often applied to the anglicised Protestants who therefore made up the Irish professional and landed classes. A number of them became famous as poets or writers, including Jonathan Swift, George Berkeley, Oliver Goldsmith, Laurence Sterne, Bram Stoker, Oscar Wilde, W.B. Yeats, Cecil Day Lewis, and Bernard Shaw ...." With apparently English grandparents, Bacon does not fit this description - he was English rather than anglicised. You have not engaged with any other evidence and arguments produced by others, & no matter how many web Amazon etc references you produce, this will not affect what more reliable and authoritative sources say. Johnbod (talk) 17:46, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

- Seems pretty Irish to me. he was born and raised there. Peoples nationality is not determined by where their grandparents are from. It should say Irish. To settle this arguement you have to look at the facts, as both sides have sources showing different info. Other than the links claiming that he is british, there is nothing to show that he is. As a previous writer said, it is easy to dig out links showing Oscar Wilde as British. Just my 2 cents. Peboyle (talk) 13:56, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Evidence that Francis Bacon’s Nationality was Irish

First, to define the term nationality: http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=nationality the status of belonging to a particular nation by birth or naturalization.

Francis Bacon was born at 63 Lower Baggot Street, Dublin on 28 October 1909. His Father was born in South Australia to an English father [of Welsh extraction] and an Australian mother. His Mother was born in Straffan Lodge in Naas, County Kildare. His maternal grandparents Winifred Supple(English), and her husband Kerry Firth (English), lived at Farmleigh, Abbeyleix, County Laois

Francis Bacon : Anatomy of an Enigma by Michael Peppiatt which The Guardian calls the definitive life of a fascinatingly flawed figure shows.

On page 163 of the paperback issue, it states "he deliberately cast himself as an inspired misfit from the wilds of an Irish stud farm.

Pages 28 - 29 of the paperback edition. Bacon speaks of his first time in Berlin and the Caberets he visited and the freedom and directness with which homosexuality was treated. He says " I had never seen anything like it, of course , having been brought up in Ireland, and it excited me enormously.

Page 199 He turned down CH and CBE honours. I am unable to find out why, but this weakens the case for him being British.

On the contrary - he would not have been offered these unless he was a British citizen! Johnbod (talk) 17:19, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

In a guardian article, a friend of Bacons comments on his Irish qualities http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/2008/aug/10/art William Vaughans Encyclopedia of Artists ISBN-10: 0195215729 ISBN-13: 978-0195215724 lists Francis Bacon as Irish.

Sotheby's London Auction catalogue dated June 30th 1977 selling lot number 466 Study for a Portrait oil on canvas 78 in. by 54 in. The Property of an lrish Artist Francis Bacon. So it appears that during his life he was put forth as an Irish Artist by Sotheby's

Doesn't this mean it was being sold by someone else? If it was being sold by Bacon you would expect them to say "Property of the artist". Johnbod (talk) 17:31, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I should clarify that the painting in question is a Francis Bacon painting, so it is unlikely that someone else with the same name from Ireland was selling it. 147.114.226.173 (talk) 13:20, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

It is clear from the above that 1) he was born in Ireland. 2) he liked to be viewed as being from the wilds of an Irish stud farm, he claimed to have been brought up in Ireland, and a friend commented upon his Irish nature. And during his life Sotheby's put him forth as Irish.

Links referring to Bacon as Irish. http://www.visual-arts-cork.com/irish-artists/francis-bacon.htm Francis Bacon (1909-1992) was an Irish figurative painter, influenced in his earlier years by Picasso http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-138482157.html Bringing home Bacon: the dark, twisted paintings of out Irish artist Francis Bacon hang in museums around the world, but it's the art he left at home that gets the attention in a fascinating new book.( http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0500510342/francisbacon-20 Francis Bacon's Studio lovingly takes stock of the late Irish artist's stacked canvases http://artmagazine.arcadja.com/2008/09/30/the-damned-francis-bacon-at-the-tate-gallery/#hide As a modern Caravaggio, the Irish Francis Bacon has become a true icon of the damned artist. The art of painting, according to the Irish artist, now free and not forced to do reportages http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/2008/aug/30/bacon.art Such was the context of Bacon's most famous paintings, the Popes, for - especially to an Irishman of Bacon's generation - the Pope, not the king or any prime minister or even a dictator's chief of police, is the ultimate authority figure. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/inside-the-mind-of-francis-bacon-446120.html The Irish figurative painter, known for his austere and sometimes nightmarish imagery http://encyclopedia.farlex.com/Bacon,+Francis+(painter) http://www.rte.ie/arts/2008/0207/baconf.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Is_the_Devil:_Study_for_a_Portrait_of_Francis_Bacon http://www.thecnj.com/review/2008/100208/feature100208_01.html http://www.theartwolf.com/self-portraits/bacon-self-portrait.htm http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/2008/aug/10/art

There is a long history of Irish people being mistakenly referred to as British. The Oscar Wilde Telegraph article below is a good example. The Irish band U2 are often mistakenly referred to as British also. Just because people can find articles that mistakenly think that Republic of Ireland is part of Britain, does not mean that its citizens should be referred to as British. It is clear that the sources that show Bacon as British are making this mistake, by the underlying fact that Bacon was actually born and raised in Ireland. Canadians are often mistakenly identified as Americans, and New Zealanders mistakenly identified as Australian. The giveaway is if the subject is also referred to as born and raised in Toronto or Auckland. There is nothing confusing here about Bacons nationality.

Here is a link to a Telegraph article that refers to Oscar Wilde as a "Great British Wit" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1566243/Oscar-Wilde-voted-greatest-British-wit.html Oscar was born in Dublin, much like Francis Bacon, and even though the British may wish to claim them, both are still Irish.

147.114.226.175 (talk) 16:56, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry to comment once again in this hairsplitting debacle BUT Tyrenius has already suggested a compromise above thus:

Francis Bacon (28 October 1909 – 28 April 1992) was an Irish-born British figurative painter.

Surely this is perfectly adequate as it blends at least two viewpoints? Maybe we should now vote on the acceptability of this sentence? thank you Peter morrell 20:56, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia works by WP:CONSENSUS rather than voting, but let's see what response there is. I think the format you state is true to sources and also gives the reader the best summary of his status. This is for the lead; the article can give further details. Ty 09:12, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I notice on the Danny Boyle page, Boyle is portrayed as being English. Both of his parents were Irish, so either Boyle has to be changed to Irish or Bacon to Irish, otherwise we have a conflict. Boyle is only English by birth as per the Wellington arguement above.

No. Boyle (like his father) was born in, & lives in, England, & there is no sign he identifies as primarily Irish, though he would qualify for citizenship. Johnbod (talk) 10:45, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Evidence that Francis Bacon’s Nationality was British

Already stated at #Arbitrary break 2. Ty 09:09, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Nationality is not significant, it is identity. A person born in Ireland but who moved with their foreign parents to their own country whilst they were still young might have Irish nationality, but in most cases it's unlikely they'd consider themselves Irish. Nationality is simply a nominal category of no significance.

There is no point in citing 'authorities' on this subject since there can't actually be any. Everyone who has been quoted either for or against here is probably just as biased as all of us. The problem is that what seems conclusive evidence for some people is not for others. This has perhaps been the most detailed discussion of the problem of Bacon.

People like Wellington lived in an era where there was a shared identity between Ireland, England, Scotland, and Wales, known as British. Wellington regarded himself as such, and not Irish. If we are going to break down this composite identity to be sensitive to its elements and therefore refer to Bacon as 'Irish-born British', we should really call him 'Irish-born English'.194.129.67.166 (talk) 09:54, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

As far as wikipedia is concerned there is only one thing that is significant, namely wikipedia policy that requires editors to use information from verifiable sources per WP:VERIFY. Arguments and opinions as stated in the preceding post are invalid as original research. You might like to read the rather lengthy conversations on this page before jumping in, as wiki policy is clearly stated on more than one occasion. Ty 23:04, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you do state wikipolicy a lot. But I knew that before I followed your polite suggestion and reread the whole article. Wikipolicy is here in error and needs to be challenged. A verifiable source is no solution when the answer to the question at hand is not verifiable. 194.129.67.166 (talk)

Facts suggest that he may well have acquired United Kingdom citizenship in 1949 due to the provisions of section 5 of the Ireland Act 1949 British_nationality_law_and_the_Republic_of_Ireland JAJ (talk) 05:15, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

OK so what "facts" are you alluding to? is it documented? show the facts and let folks judge. thank you Peter morrell 07:37, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

He was born with British citizenship, like everyone else in Ireland at the time, and there is no evidence he ever had any other. He appears from the article to have been eligible for call-up in 1939, and must have had a passport for his pre-War European travels, so "facts suggest" he had British citizenship throughout his life. Johnbod (talk) 15:56, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Facts are a British subject born in Southern Ireland before 6 December 1922, having been domiciled in England on 6 December 1922 (domiciled of origin from father) and living outside Southern Ireland from 10 April 1935 to 31 December 1948. This is normally enough to fall into the provisions of section 5 of the Ireland Act 1949 to become a U.K. & Colonies citizen on 1 January 1949. JAJ (talk) 03:36, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Not "become" or "acquire", although the status might have been altered or confirmed in some way. Such people had never ceased to have British citizenship, nor had they gained Irish citizenship unless they chose to apply for it. Johnbod (talk) 03:49, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

That comment STILL does not answer the point made above; I ask again: what so-called "facts" suggest that "he may well have acquired United Kingdom citizenship in 1949 due to the provisions of section 5 of the Ireland Act 1949?" This has still not been clarified. Having something from birth is not the same as acquiring something in 1949, now is it? Peter morrell 18:45, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

No, that's my point. Johnbod (talk) 18:50, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Might it be best to identify him as someone whose identity is contested? E.g. 'Figurative painter whose nationality and identity are disputed'. 194.129.67.165 (talk) 09:32, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

This conversation is for the most part quite irrelevant and rather misses the point. Most it is OR. It isn't of any consequence what nationality anybody "thinks" Bacon was, or what they "think" there's evidence for. It matters what reliable external sources say his nationality was. This biography looks alright:

http://www.amazon.com/Francis-Bacon-Anatomy-Michael-Peppiatt/dp/1845297318/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1225882550&sr=1-1

In the brief review blurb, it describes him as "Anglo Irish" which seems to me to be satisfactory to all parties and I have boldly changed the intro appropriately. However, I haven't read the book. I suggest that someone who has it, looks in it, and then writes down what is says in the Bacon article here. Unless the book says he was born on Mars to parents from Zeta Centauri and Betelgeuse, then its line should be the line taken in the article. That is how Wikipedia works. This isn't a discussion board for peoples' personal opinions, it's an encyclopaedia. Badgerpatrol (talk) 11:03, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, yes, see above, and article refs. Sadly cover blurbs aren't RS's. Changing back. Johnbod (talk) 12:54, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, a back cover blurb would probably be a reliable source. This was a short review, not a cover blurb however. I'm surprised you've changed it back, especially given your supportive commentary above - "Anglo-Irish" can't be wrong, because it indicates that he had shared English and Irish ancestry, which no-one disagrees with. Currently the article states unambiguously that he was British, which may be true, but I haven't seen a stick of supportive evidence, nor has there been a stick of evidence that he was Irish. He was definitely Anglo-Irish, however. In short, someone needs to read the book (or other reliable sources), and then state what it says, and then support that with a reference. What anybody may think or want to be true is totally irrelevant. I have added a "cite needed" tag which should stay until a cite is no longer needed. Badgerpatrol (talk) 15:29, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

You clearly haven't read the debate at all, before dismissing it. Bacon does not meet the proper use of the term Anglo-Irish, and there is a long list of very solid references to his being British above, as well as much a less solid one of his being Irish. "Anglo-Irish" has hardly any references. Johnbod (talk) 15:49, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I have read every word of the tediously long-winded debate above, more's the pity. The term "Anglo-Irish" has evolved over the years. No one would characterise "the Anglo Irish agreement" as a collusive agreement between the UK and the Irish protestant ascendency. Rather it signifies a relationship between the UK and Ireland in a broader sense. The references you've added to the article, with the explanatory note, are enough to satisfy me (although I would obtain references from a well-received scholarly biography, and I would include dissenting references stating that Bacon was Irish, as described in the note). The requirement is not objective truth, it's reliably sourced references. Now that those have been added, the debate is finished. Badgerpatrol (talk) 16:09, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree. The matter has been fully explored. A conclusion has been reached, based on the sources. Ty 04:51, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I see our problem arises on the entry for Irish Murdoch too. It's also worth noting that in both cases the entries are in the Ireland wikiproject but not in the England wikiproject, surely this needs to be rectified?194.129.67.166 (talk) 09:55, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

The arguments presented from the British camp above, and especially the supposed resolution, are highly contentious and only marquerade under the cloak of impartiality. In particular, the claim that 'most authoritative sources' support this point of view appears highly misguided in its understanding of historical authority, indeed this is so to the point of indicating bias.

I have no idea whether Wikipedia enters into a discussion of how to weight sources in its editorial policy but clearly this has not been done here. The supporting newspaper articles for the British argument have been clearly and forcefully cast into doubt by the opposition, I see no reason to believe that one gallerly or art magazine is any stronger than another, nor do I see any reason to support the position that weight or number of sources is definitive.

It has been convincingly shown in the argument above that there is a tendency in British media and elsewhere to describe celebrated individuals of Irish birth, and indeed inclination in many cases, as British. Without any knowledge of what investigations into their descriptions were undertaken by the sources cited, we have no way of knowing how rigorously they pursued the question and as a result, cannot put any weight behind the historical validity of these as sources. Proliferation of a popular mistake is no substitute for credibility.

Aside from this, the RTE claim is particularly valid as this is an organ of the Irish state and reflects the official view of the Irish state as claiming Bacon. Without any countervailing claim by the British state, it would seem that the official citizenship conferred upon him is Irish.

Lastly, and most importantly, the biography, the only rigorous source used anywhere, seems to lean towards Irishness and thus, until equally peer-reviewed material is produced, this must be the strongest source and no weight of unreviewed literature should discredit it. As a result, I have changed the wording to an ambivalent formation to reflect the contentiousness of this leaning. InconX

The idea that a stray sentence on an RTE website "reflects the official view of the Irish state as claiming Bacon" is plainly ridiculous, as would be an equivalent for the BBC. Several of the sources using British or English (eg Getty - normally the most authoritative source on artist's names) are from neither Britain nor Ireland (as of course are some using Irish). There might be more "ambivalent" wordings that could be used, but yours was certainly not one of them. I agree the biography would be the best source of further information, but unfortunately no one here currently has access to it. Actually I am confident that the very many references on websites to his being declared extempt from military service because of his asthma derive from the biography, and the full book will no doubt make it clearer that he was otherwise subject to call-up as a British citizen. I certainly don't agree it "seems to lean towards Irishness" on the evidence we have. Several of the sources used are "rigorous" - the Getty is most certainly so (the last time I used it it listed over 50 variant names of one artist). See the 6 authoritative sources it draws on and lists - all using British or English [26]. So I have reverted your change. Johnbod (talk) 18:51, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

The contributor above seems to believe, in the absence of any other indication, that ‘…The arguments presented from the British camp above, and especially the supposed resolution, are highly contentious and only marquerade under the cloak of impartiality…’ because they present that view point. By implication he seems to be saying that the pro-Irish view is impartial simply by virtue of the fact that it is pro-Irish. Is this intelligent?

When the contributor goes on to claim that ‘…It has been convincingly shown in the argument above that there is a tendency in British media and elsewhere to describe celebrated individuals of Irish birth, and indeed inclination in many cases, as British…’ He assumes that others are convinced by this, or will be convinced by this, despite it being as easy to say that there is a tendency by Irish people to declare people of British identity, like Wellington, or people who are a mix of Irish and English, like Bacon, to be simply Irish. He also invokes the fallacy that place of birth is sufficient or necessary to make a person who they are, it is not.

Given the earlier pronouncements it seems strange to then have to rely on ‘…the RTE claim [that] is particularly valid as this is an organ of the Irish state and reflects the official view of the Irish state as claiming Bacon. Without any countervailing claim by the British state, it would seem that the official citizenship conferred upon him is Irish…’ Here we are invited to abandon reliance on art historians and instead rely on official state ideology, as though this is an improvement! Maybe there is a tendency by the Irish state to conscript artists in its fight for cultural superiority?

‘…Lastly, and most importantly, the biography, the only rigorous source used anywhere, seems to lean towards Irishness and thus, until equally peer-reviewed material is produced, this must be the strongest source and no weight of unreviewed literature should discredit it…’ A definitive autobiography has an authority that may not be total, the collage of a second party can hardly be considered authoritative. I suggest, as I have done before, that we abandon reference to the supposed authority of art historians, state ideologies and biographers, and decide for ourselves. Given that it is quite clear that Bacon is neither entirely English, nor entirely Irish, but is a mix of the two, the only reasonable description of him is as English-Irish, born and largely raised in Ireland as a child.194.129.67.165 (talk) 19:04, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Grammar?

In the 3rd paragraph in the "London, Berlin, and Paris" section, it says:

"...One of the men was an ex-army friend of his father, another breeder of race-horses, named Harcourt-Smith. Bacon later claimed that his father had asked this friend to take him 'in-hand' and 'make a man of him'. Francis had a difficult relationship with his father, once admitting to be[ing] sexually attracted to him...."

This makes it sound as if Francis was sexually attracted to his own father (which I can understand would make the relationship difficult). Should it say, instead, that he was attracted to Harcourt-Smith? Z Wylld 20:09, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

No, you were right the first time. See his "Screaming Pope" series from the early 1950s. Ceoil 20:13, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Delezue

"The philosopher Gilles Deleuze has contributed greatly to the interpretation of Bacon's work." This line seems to me out of place in the opening paragraph of the entry. Is there some special connection between Deleuze and Bacon that merits this? In what way is Deleuze contribution any greater (in some objective sense) than any other critic? Axamoto 20:23, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree its out of place in the current form of a very short and weak lead. Several heavyweights wrote extensively on Bacon, Deleuze was paticularly insightful, but so were Leiris, Sylvester etc. Ceoil 20:30, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

External links section

It's too long. Probably some of the links to images are to sites where the image is a copyvio. Some of the links are actually wikilinks and should be in a "See also" section, if not linked in the main text. Ty 02:26, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

His father born in Australia?

Up above, in the nationality argument, near the end, what appears to be a quote from Peppiat has his father born in "South Australia". But in the article we have both parents born at "Straffan Lodge in Naas, County Kildare, the birthplace of both parents" - Abbeyleix section. Can someone confirm which is right? Johnbod (talk) 13:26, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Morphine for attacks of asthma and allergy?

That doesn't make sense. Morphine makes asthma and especially allergy much worse. It has a calming and sedating effect but it would never be given to someone during an asthma attack. That would be dangerous and cruel. This is very strange, better get it confirmed. 87.59.100.141 (talk) 13:41, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Figure painter

Surely this should say figurative painter. Bacon often worked with photographs, but never with live models, in fact he was very secretive and din not like anyone to see him working.

In answer to the above questions, his Father was born in Australia, his mother was born in Kildare Ireland, and he was Irish, as per the Peppiat book which I have here.

79.69.5.67 (talk) 22:21, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Contested Nationality

There has been discussion of this already but I have commenced a new topic as this refers to a particular dispute.

That dispute is about the wording of the introductory sentence about Bacon's national identity.

The answers to the questions of whether he was Irish, English, British, or some composite of all of them are highly contested. The only thing uncontroversial therefore is that his nationality is contested. By nationality I mean identity rather than legal status since the latter is of no significance. Accordingly I had written that he was 'a figurative painter of contested nationality'. This seemed the best way to do it as specific descriptions were controversial.

I think there should be no reference to either party's position in that opening statement because it is neutral territory. Adding other information adds bias. Adding 'Irish-born' seems to suggest that despite the dispute, he was really Irish. It unbalances things in the same way as writing 'a figurative of contested nationality who spent some of his childhood and all of his adult life in England' would. I hope the comparison makes it clear what is at stake. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SomersetDevon (talk • contribs) 16:47, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

You have expressed a POV that others disagree with.Modernist (talk) 16:53, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

If you disagree that there is a disagreement... SomersetDevon (talk) 16:58, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

• I have gone back to the old wording, as the one removed had no concensus, and in all the long discussions above no one has produced the slightest evidence that his nationality is "contested" anywhere other than on this page. Perhaps one day someone will bother to go to a library and find out from a biography what passport his extensive travels were made on. Johnbod (talk) 17:02, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

No, instead different people attribute different nationality to him. What would happen if they met? It is contested by implication. As fro passports there could be a variety of extraneous reasons for use of passport.

As for my POV, to clarify, how could you disagree, given the above, that his identity is contested when it is fact? SomersetDevon (talk) 17:06, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

(ec) It is certainly contested here, but as I say, not one of the dozens of refs produced here says that is contested outside WP. For us to describe it as "contested" in the lead is self-referential, which is against guidelines. "As for passports there could be a variety of extraneous reasons for use of passport." - er, no. Each passport = a nationality; clarity on the facts here would settle the matter. Johnbod (talk) 17:49, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

• If you can find reliable external sources that say his national identity is contested, the point could be mentioned in the body of the article. The lead section is just a summary, it isn't the right place for any complicated exposition, so "Irish-born" is a good compromise. - Pointillist (talk) 17:46, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

  Agree. Ceoil (talk) 19:05, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

So the situation is one where different people say different things. They are not in agreement, Therefore it is accurate to say that it is contested. That is not self-referential, it is a logical inference. BTW it would surely be better to say Irish born English painter, rather than British, if something partisan were to be said. That "The lead section is just a summary, it isn't the right place for any complicated exposition" would seem to indicate the use of neutral terms; whereas "so "Irish-born" " complicates things and is not "a good compromise". SomersetDevon (talk) 23:09, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

All the "different people" are WP editors without current access to any of the book-length biographies; none are WP:RSs. There is no mention of disagreements in any of the external references, just different statements. If you can find one let's have it. Obviously the Irish like to think of him as Irish & vv. As shown above, to my satisfaction anyway, most US etc sources also use British or English. Johnbod (talk) 23:18, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Irish-born British figurative painter; speaking as one who has read most of the lith, and as Irishman, this works for me. Because its factual. As many Ill-informed barrel scraping sources as can be provided, aside. Ceoil (talk) 23:36, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Consensus has been established through long discussion on this page and examination of the sources for the current wording as stated by Ceoil. Ty 08:49, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Please don't kid yourselves that there is a consensus here, as I think the recent edits have been pretty lousy and mostly unnecessary. It is no use pretending there is a consensus for 'removing citations of good stuff' just because one person is bold and maverick enough to edit all on their own without consulting anybody and damn the consequences. This is what is happening. No consensus has been sought and none reached by the editors working in recent days and if it ain't broke then why keep trying to fix it? The article was relatively stable until now. I would happily revert all edits back to 26 feb. So there you go. It's an opinion on a talk page as opposed to strings of bad edits made without consensus which many would say is POV pushing. I am not a major editor of this article, but there you have my ten cents. If you want a consensus article then you have to consult other folks. thank you Peter morrell 13:20, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Your post appears to be a response to mine, in which case you seem to have misunderstood what I am saying. The consensus I indicate is not applicable to recent edits but to the wording stated by Ceoil, which is what you refer to in your mention of February 26 and the stability existing until recent edits, for which there is no such consensus. Ty 22:44, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Well at least know now that peter has no interest in furthering the article per se, only in a pushing a narrow POV. The lead he wants, I clearly gather, should say nothing about artistic achievement, just provide that Bacon's nationality is 'contested'. Oh for god sake, deliver me. Ceoil (talk) 22:58, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

That's absolutely not what I said and not what I meant. Of course his artistic achievements should be in the lead. I don't personally care a flying fig what his nationality was in actual fact. But if it is confused, and good sources say several things and they can be cited, then that point should stay. And why not? What I said was that as a general WP principle we should say what reliable sources say and defer to that rather than push our own POV. I don't have a strong or narrow POV about Bacon, but I don't like editors who ignore achieving a consensus, just wade in and make numerous cavalier, Maverick, unnegotiated edits riddled with spelling mistakes and think that's an OK way to behave, especially when many of the edits are deletions of good stuff or minor tweakings of little consequence: 'fixing something that's not even broke.' Maybe that makes it clearer? thanks Peter morrell 08:57, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I didn't read the 26 Feb version properly. It seems highly inappropriate to say in right off in the lead "of contested nationality", as if this is one of the most important things to communicate. I'm not aware of any signficant sources that would verify this, apart from editorial interpretation. I note earlier on this page the following:

"British" is the majority viewpoint and should be used per WP:NPOV. It covers (at the time of his birth) Irish, English and Anglo-Irish. Those can be usefully given in a footnote, or else explored in the main text. Ty 09:34, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

That sounds perfectly fine to me. thanks Peter morrell 09:40, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

There is an argument above by SomersetDevon (whose only edits were on 27 Feb, all to this article), "By nationality I mean identity rather than legal status since the latter is of no significance." That's quite incorrect. What we give is legal status, rather than what editors mean by something.

Ty 00:51, 2 March 2009 (UTC

To respond to this rather belatedly: what is established as a rule on wikipedia is not necessarily right. Similarly, what is said by 'respected' 'authoritative' sources may not be right. It's as though by referring to historians you reach fact when because what is fact is interpretable, what is written in books is actually worse than what is written here because there there's no dialectic at all. Nationality defined by place of birth is inadequate for a description of who a person is.

"Anglo-Irish" etc (cont from above)

I note the article now describes Bacon as Irish born British - a nonsense concept. He was never Irish. The place of birth for an Englishman in the days of Empire was irrelevant to his sense of nationhood. Bacon may properly be described as Dublin born British, Dublin born English, Ireland born British or Ireland born English. I have dealt only with verifiable facts above and I can add some more:

1 In November 1992 the French Post Office issued a series of commemorative stamps featuring European Union contemporary art with a stamp for each member of the EU. Britain was represented by Francis Bacon.

2 Wiki Ireland describes Francis Bacon as English.

3 In a BBC Radio 4 interview with Richard Cook first broadcast on 17 August 1991 Bacon mentioned he was born in 1909 and in talking of the start of the First World War in 1914 he said “I was in Ireland then”. “As children we were brought up as protestants in Ireland and taken to church every day.” This description demonstrates the historical rather than intimate or personal nature of his relationship with Ireland.

4 In interview with his biographer, Bacon said his parents were English.

5 On 26 May 1952 Bacon disembarked from SS Carnarvon Castle at Southampton England on which he had travelled from South Africa. He completed his immigration card as a first class passenger giving his name Francis Bacon age 42 address 26 Beaufort Gardens London SW3 description Artist and nationality British. [merchant shipping records kept under the Merchant Shipping Act 1906 and Aliens Restriction Acts 1914 and 1919 and available to view on www.ancestry.co.uk].

lawfullymine 81.159.193.223 (talk) 20:58, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

That's very helpful, especially the last piece. That info is only visible to subscribers of www. ancestry.co.uk, so I don't know if we can reference it. Anyone? Johnbod (talk) 23:04, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

If lawfullymine (81.159.193.223) will post a link to the info at ancestry.co.uk, I'll verify it for you. Is there some concern that "Irish-born" could be interpreted as "born an Irish national"? If so, perhaps we should rephrase it. - Pointillist (talk) 21:20, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

I found, but could not access, him by searching there on Francis Bacon (28 October 1909 Dublin – 28 April 1992 Spain). Obviously there were no Irish nationals as such in 1909, but I suppose not everyone knows that. I would be ok with "Brit fig ptr born in Ireland" myself. Johnbod (talk) 21:58, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

"Brit fig ptr born in Ireland" is OK with me. I logged in to ancestry.co.uk but my subscription appears to be "U.S. Deluxe" so I can't verify the UK immigration record without upgrading. I'll need to investigate that further. - Pointillist (talk) 22:37, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

"British figurative painter born in Ireland" is right. Ty 22:45, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

I've made the change. - Pointillist (talk) 22:59, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

...and Ceoil has changed it back to "an Irish born British figurative painter". Could you experts please agree a wording? This should not be such a big deal. - Pointillist (talk) 23:45, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

This is no better evidence than the Sotheby's catelogue mentioned above. 147.114.226.193 (talk) 15:15, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Just a reminder of the straw poll courtesy of Google (see also #Abritrary break 2):

• "British artist" 8420 results[27]
• "English artist" 1790 results[28]
• "Irish artist" 1960 results[29]
• "Anglo-Irish artist" 25 results[30]

• "born in Dublin" 2820 results [31]
• "Irish born" 2740 results[32]
• "born in Ireland" 1080 results [33]

Apparently "The artist was born in Dublin but did not regard himself as Irish."[34]

I think "British born in Dublin" or "Irish born British" satisfies NPOV. Ty 02:12, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

It is clear that this question has not been resolved thus I re added the NPOV tag. 147.114.226.193 (talk) 15:04, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

I think most Irish people would be outraged by Johnbod's statement that "Obviously there were no Irish nationals as such in 1909" Does he wish to edit the pages of all other Irish people who were born under British occupation? Maybe he could start with Oscar Wilde who has been mentioned above as comparable to francis Bacon being Irish of British descent. Clearly he is pushing a political point of view rather than attempting to find the truth. 147.114.226.193 (talk) 15:12, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Not at all; it is a simple statement of fact - there was no seperate Irish state to be a citizen of, in legal terms. Johnbod (talk) 15:44, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

147.114.226.193, are you taking steps to find better evidence? How long do you think you'll need to find something satisfactory? Or do you have another form of words to propose? - Pointillist (talk) 15:18, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Do these ultra nationalist English editors seriously expect us to accept that Irish identity didn’t exist until after the occupation??? The whole concept of “Anglo-Irish”, “Irish born” or “British-Irish” is clearly preposterous. If Francis Bacon was a paedophile instead of a painter I can assure you that these same editors wouldn’t attempt to “claim” him. On the contrary, they’d be selling him as Irish. The golden rule of Wikipedia, if a person is successful from a small English speaking nation, he is automatically claimed as English by some inadequate English Editor, who’s struggling to come to terms with the fact that the “Empire” no longer exists. Get a grip people.

Should Irish editors alter Wayne Rooney’s page so his nationality is Hiberno-English? Or how about the Bronte sisters??? The fact is Bacon was born in Ireland, he’s mother was Irish, he is Irish. Its not as if he was born into a “Good Friday Agreement” like situation. Regardless of what he "considered" himself to be, these are the facts. You may "consider" yourself to be anything, but it doesn't make it so! I notice that Daniel Day Lewis is still considered an English Actor, despite taking up Irish Citizenship and living in Ireland! Using the logic of the imbeciles, shouldn't he be classed as an "English born" Irish actor??? Yet another example of the obvious double standards that is so prevalent on WAKIpedia! Small nations don't stand a chance on this Pseudo-encyclopaedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rondolfus (talk • contribs) 23:17, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

'Anglo-Irish' is not proper useage of term here. Bacon was Irish, but he painted all his life in Britain, so as a painter he could be classed as British, but his nationality is still Irish. Therefore I removed Anglo-Irish. If anyone comes up with better wording, I'll go along with that. purple (talk) 02:26, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

• Something like "Francis Bacon (28 October 1909 – 28 April 1992) was an Irish-born British figurative expressionist painter." Seems more realistic, and easier to understand. purple (talk) 16:43, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

That's what we had until a few weeks ago! It would be good to go back to that. Johnbod (talk) 17:05, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Edited. We are back at that now. Ceoil (talk) 17:26, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

He was an Irish born British artist. If only Soho was a separate principality then the whole issue would be settled :) --Ethicoaestheticist (talk) 21:46, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

When did he start painting?

These two sentences appear to conflict:

"... Bacon did not begin painting until he was in his late 20s. He painted sporadically and without commitment during the late 1920s and early 1930s...."

If he was born in 1909 and began painting in his late 20s, how could he have been painting at all in the late 1920s? Even with a liberal interpretation of "his late 20s" he would have been at least 25 when he started, well into the 1930s. Anyone with more background in this subject want to reword this section to get rid of the contradiction? Phlar (talk) 05:46, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Now that I'm more awake and have read the references, it's clear that he was painting by 1929 (the year he turned 20), so I have changed "Bacon did not begin painting until he was in his late 20s" to "Bacon had begun painting by his early 20s." I couldn't find a more precise reference to the year or age he began painting, hence the vague wording. Phlar (talk) 19:13, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Invitation to join Category:Wikipedians interested in Francis Bacon's nationality

Why not add this category to your user talk page if you are still interested in the subject and would like to join a WikiProject obsessed with dedicated to ongoing discussion and collaboration? Potential contributors include 15.203.169.106, 81.159.193.223 (aka lawfullymine?), 86.157.15.81, 89.101.222.28, 92.3.203.152, 147.114.226.173, 147.114.226.175, 147.114.226.193, 194.129.67.165, 194.129.67.166, Badgerpatrol, Ceoil, Ethicoaestheticist, JAJ, Johnbod, Modernist, Peboyle, Peter morrell, Purple Arrow, Rondolfus, SomersetDevon and Tyrenius. See you there.... Pointillist (talk) 21:05, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm signing up! Johnbod (talk) 21:12, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, but no thanks. The guy was born in Ireland, grew up in Ireland, and then happened to move to live in Britain. England precisely. He is famous for being a painter, and his painting-work was done in Britain. It's not 'rocket science' ;) purple (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:52, 17 May 2009 (UTC).

What about membership cards?Modernist (talk) 22:54, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Modernist, that sence of humour automatically disqualifies you from our new clique. You need to take irrelevances more serious! C'mon - Its not about art, its about nationality, see. Bacon himself would have been appalled that his nationality would be an issue, he never talked about it, it did not matter to him. But who cares! We know better! Ceoil (talk) 23:33, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

• BTW, there is no such nationality as this CAT would suggest, Category:Wikipedians_interested_in_Anglo-Irish_nationality. Whoever thinks up these conundrums should get the 'wooden spoon'! purple (talk) 01:19, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately, no-one else has joined this category (Johnbod didn't actually sign up in the end) so it is going to be deleted. On the positive side, that now leaves me as officially the only Wikipedian interested in Francis Bacon's nationality. The heady whiff of power is quite intoxicating.... - Pointillist (talk) 13:22, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm frightened to think you are surprised. That power mush be strong stuff indeed. Ceoil (talk) 23:06, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Sorry to have missed that given it is a perversely fascinating subject like a very small scale roadtraffic incident. But we should do something about it, I see poor Bacon's nationality has been changed without discussion yet again. I'll change it back. Anyway I think to get to the bottom of this we need to escape this format, perhaps. SomersetDevon (talk) 09:40, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Somerset he he; poor Bacon indeed; did you ever come across a fellow less wont of pity than Bacon. He was very impatient with this kind of thing and suffered fools with such distain I'd imagine he would have been blocked from wikipedia before he had time to wipe the grime form his rolex watch. I wish all this would just go away; if it was such a non issue for the man himself, who really cares, really. In fact the article over all is quite weak, and to be wasting energy on a technicality, is a waste. How do you mean format, though? Ceoil (talk) 14:08, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Ceoil, given that you and I both seem to be participating in the Anglo-Irish debate elsewhere; and also seem to be opposed, I propose we be joint editors of an article on the Anglo-Irish debate. We can begin with Bacon. We distill the talk contributions by both sides to get to the point and present both cases side by side. It has the double advantage of a. avoiding edit wars in the original article; and b. probably demonstrating how this is a culture war neither side can win and therefore best not begin - a notable public service.SomersetDevon (talk) 15:44, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

And of course, other collaborators would be useful. SomersetDevon (talk) 15:49, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Elesewhere? Eh? Fine Somerset, though it seems to have died down and is their much point in reopening? Ceoil (talk) 19:05, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes it has here, but I notice the same points arising over various Anglo-Irish types, it's not Bacon specific.SomersetDevon (talk) 10:39, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Oh dear, I haven't visited these pages since the beginning of the year and there is clearly a deal of confusion about it means to be Irish and British. I have nephews born in Hong Kong but they are not Chinese and they are not "Chinese born". Let us use the English language correctly. Bacon can only properly be described as "a Dublin born English painter" or "an English painter born in Ireland [or Dublin]". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lawfullymine (talk • contribs) 09:34, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

There is no evidence that Bacon ever thought of himself as Irish or Anglo-Irish. When he was born, in 1909, Ireland was a part of the United Kingdom and someone in Bacon's position would have correctly considered themselves British. He never made any attempt to assert Irishness as his identity, never visited Ireland as an adult, and, as far I know, hardly mentioned Ireland in any of his many interviews. Since his studio contents were moved to the Hugh Lane gallery, there has been a concerted effort on behalf of certain people here in Ireland to claim him as an Irish painter. This is a fiction. In my opinion it is particularly cynical since Bacon's open homosexuality would probably have seen him driven out of Ireland if he had ever tried to make his home here. 84.203.42.163 (talk) 02:17, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

He made a big deal of having an 'Irish fear of death'. The reason he never revisited is more to do with bitterness towards his father than a lack of empathy towards this country. But you know what, who cares. Born in Ireland, Irish. Thats it. Move on. Ceoil (talk) 19:06, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Any material in wikipedia articles must come from reliable sources. Merely making statements as above is not sufficient. Ty 08:02, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Parents' birth

Now someone has objected to "Irish-born English mother" and an "Australian-born English father", which had a citation to the Peppiatt book, but without page number(s). Can anyone find those statements in the book and add them back with the pages numbers? - Pointillist (talk) 17:41, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Done. Ceoil (talk) 23:05, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Not sure quite where this item goes but this article is worth reading and quoting in the main body of the article, IMO. It's a longish review of Peppiatt's major tome but contains some very useful quotable info. thanks Peter morrell 07:37, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Ha ha ha, maybe 'British', then, to identify the recurrent theme? SomersetDevon (talk) 01:14, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

The request has been made to create a Francis Bacon disambiguation page with--as it stands--Francis Bacon → Francis Bacon (philosopher).

Francis Bacon--an artist of the 20th Century--gets as many external hits as the philosopher and the current set up is affecting the evolution of the artist article insofar at is currently awkward to access. There is, in any case, arguably, no clear primary topic. If you wish to add your views on this discussion Talk:Francis Bacon#Requested_move

Artiquities (talk) 20:08, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree that a disambiguation page should be created. But I'm puzzled as to why you moved Francis Bacon (painter) to Francis Bacon (artist). Your rationale was "He was not a painter, he was an artist. He did plenty more than painting." Did he? I'm only aware of furniture design, very early in his career and for a very short time. He hasn't produced any drawings - a few surviving sketches are not universally acknowledged as his works. So, why did you move the article? --Jashiin (talk) 10:38, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree he is only really notable as a painter, but "artist" is better style for all artists, except maybe some sculptors. Johnbod (talk) 11:16, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it was only a matter of format, "(painter)" is little used on WP; my rationale was poor though since he did not do much else but paint. The rationale is that "(artist)" is basically standard. IRL some object to epithet "painter," because it somehow connotes painting-and-decorating. --Artiquities (talk) 11:25, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I see. I was not aware of this WP practice. Thanks for replying! --Jashiin (talk) 12:34, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

You need to put your views on the page move on Talk:Francis Bacon#Requested_move, not here. Ty 13:02, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Oops, I thought the link led here, not to the talk page of the philosopher's article. Posted there. --Jashiin (talk) 14:07, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Artiquities, I was quite surprised at the move, considering he was so insistant that he did not draw, though of course we now know that not to be true (Jashiin the Tate accepts them and have published,[35] though they admit they have no real artistic merit. Anyway, I'm grand with reasoning above to moving, 'artist' is fine. There is a lot of dab work to be done though, is one of the consquences of a move like this on a major figure (regardless of what the philosophy people say, har). Ceoil (talk) 22:44, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

I recall reading somewhere that the Tate is almost the only one to accept their authorship, but I can't remember where I read that. --Jashiin (talk) 14:42, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I think you might be right about that. They bought the archive early and published with in a few months. And now are only ones accepting the authorship! Har. Ceoil (talk) 16:06, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Nitpick about date

This may seem a bit tedious, but I wonder if we need the date in the following quote (found under Early Works)?

"In 1935 he saw Eisenstein's The Battleship Potemkin,[17] the scene of the nurse screaming on the Odessa steps later becoming a major theme in his paintings, with the angularity of Eisenstein's image often combined with the thick red palette of his recently purchased medical tome."

After all, by 1935 "The Battleship Potemkin" was already 10 years old. And in his own words (according to the reference provided), Bacon seems to be unsure of whether he saw the film in Paris during that time, or was already aware of it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.126.226.142 (talk) 20:22, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Main image

I personally think that Reginald Gray's portrait of Bacon, an actual illustration of the article's subject, would be preferable as a main image than Study after Velázquez's, which can be used elsewhere in the article. Sir Richardson (talk) 18:21, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

New External Link

I would like to add a link to a 3 minute short doc of Damien Hirst commenting on a Francis Bacon Exhibition at Tate. Discussions of artworks, footage of the pieces and interesting to see how his work had insipred people working in contempory art practice today. Amy.jackson-bruce (talk) 12:11, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

As there have been no objections to this suggestion, I have now added the above-mentioned link. Within the link, I linked to Damien Hirst's Wiki page, as readers might find further information about Hirst useful in this context. Amy5 13:55, 14 July 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amy.jackson-bruce (talk • contribs)

Date of death

I remember in the days following his death there was colossal confusion in the press about exactly which date he died on. And it seems to be continuing here.

The lede says unambiguously he died 28 April. But later on we have this:

• On the [sic] 28 April 1992, at 4.17 pm, Francis Bacon was admitted to the Handmaids of Maria, a private clinic in Madrid, where he had been holidaying. ... He died of cardiac arrest at 9.00 am the following morning, attempts to resuscitate him having failed.

Unless I'm insane, that means he died on 29 April. Either that, or someone's royally stuffed up the datesin this section of the article.

What's it to be, folks? Even the Irish can't have it both ways. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 20:12, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

He. The 28th is generally accepted, but I think there is confusion because he knew he was dying and wanted to keep it quite. Also he was traveling to spain to meet a young boyfrined, and that would not have been something to publicise at the time. He was nursed by nuns in the last few days, which was the realisation of his greatest fear. As an Irishman, I can understand that aversion. A lot of the Slyvester interviews are very bleak and he says that that after death there is nothing, and didn't wanted to be mourned. Paraphrasing but a quote runs along the lines of "after my death I just want to dissapear and never be though of again", But we know that is not true because his paintings deliberately set themselves against the old masters, esp Goya and Velasquez. Ceoil (talk) 20:46, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

That may all be true, but it is totally inconsistent with what we're currently saying. I tried to edit out the 4:17 pm admission time, but that wasn't acceptable. So we work with that. This means that he was in the clinic for the grand total of 16 hours and 43 minutes before dying, not "nursed by nuns in the last few days" you claim. We can't have him dying on 28 April in the lede, but at 9am on 29 April in the text. It won't do at all, at all. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 21:12, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm SOO sorry. I'll just go off now and kill myself. Sorry world. Ceoil (talk) 22:10, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

No need for that. I'm just trying to establish exactly when he died. And if that's not possible, I'm trying to ensure the article is internally consistent on this matter. That's not an unreasonable or unachievable goal, and we need live people to help reach it. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 23:19, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Phrases like "It won't do at all, at all" wont get you very far with that. Ceoil (talk) 01:48, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

I was just trying to be a little humorous there, and I'm very sorry if it caused any offence.

But my point remains: In the lede we say he died 28 April, but later on we say something quite contrary, that he died at 9 am 29 April. We just can't have that conflict in a supposedly good quality article like this. We can't speak with forked tongue. We have to fix it. But we need good information in order to do that, and I don't have it. Do you? -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 02:04, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Ok I take it was meant in good humour, sorry for being over sensitive. He died on the 28 the statement quoted above is incorrect. Thanks for spotting Jack. Ceoil (talk) 05:32, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

I fear you're toying with me. That link was to a search for "francis bacon triptych born", nothing to do with when died. But even so, a simple google search is not going to resolve this issue. We have two competing dates for his death, and we need some way of knowing that one of them is definitely correct and the other one is just as definitely incorrect. For now, I'm going to change the death date in the lede to 29 April 1992, and see if that gets anyone's attention. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 06:42, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Im exhaused by people like you. If you want to somehow score points by referring to a very old passage in the article body above text I wrote and stand over, and revert me on it, then all I can say is; hope you never darken this page again and enjoy your [36]. Ceoil (talk) 11:22, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about, and I really resent your vitriol and your volatility. I cannot tell by reading the article which editor wrote which bits of it, and I have no idea how much or how little credit is attributable to you. What is the "very old passage" you refer to? What is the "text [you] wrote and stand over"? I haven't reverted anybody on anything. I have simply made the article not say 2 things that cannot possibly both be true. You have changed it back, and we're back to square one, problem unresolved, and we look complete idiots for saying 2 contradictory things. Is that the outcome you actually want? Referring me to google searches is going to cut no ice in a situation like this, I'm afraid, because all you get is what we currently have - some say 28 April, some say 29 April. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 11:36, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

No you tool, we have facts one side and a prick gamely siding on ignorance and wiki self referencing on the other. No matter what obtuse games you play. That you dont take my word or refereces is clear and understood, so in kind, fuck you you prick. Its such a dry and easily found fact that I can only concude that you are here to antoganise me because you are a friend of Johcappel and your real intention is to wear me down, bait me, have me blocked, and place a brit stamp on the page. You might at least have the balls to say that without all this time sink wankery. I seriously disrespect you, I think you are dishonest at best, and dissapointed in myself that I did not suss you earlier. Ceoil (talk) 13:15, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Just cool it with the personal attacks, OK. Your "conclusions" are completely wrong. I have never heard of Johcappel, whoever that is. I work alone, not in concert with any other editors. My wiki-credentials are impeccable. I've been here for close to 8 years, created 839 articles and other pages, never been even remotely close to even having my wrist slapped, let alone being blocked. Courtesy and good grace are my friends. Your behaviour here, on the other hand, speaks for itself - ill-mannered and now plainly abusive. We clearly live in different worlds, so it's no wonder we've never crossed paths till now. I am here to help improve this article, that's all, yet despite my best efforts, what I see is obstruction from you. It pains me to see us keeping two sets of words that say contradictory things, particularly about such a basic matter as the subject's precise date of death. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 19:12, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

I have now corrected the offending text. If anyone reverts my change, your issue will be with them, not with me. Thank you. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 19:24, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

He means me. I've never had any interaction with Jack of Oz, but I suppose it's nice to see that your sulky, petulant, completely out of line name-calling when you're challenged on something isn't limited to me. If this is the way you always behave on here, it's probably best if you do retire rather than just threatening to. JonC^Talk 09:11, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Some self awarness please. I met both of ye, and its just the circular, hands over ears, know nothing about the subject, pig headness that gets me rilled. I'm usually an ok person, but this endless bullshit from ye. Eug. If I do leave, it certainly wont be over a light-weight POV warrior prick like you. Ceoil (talk) 22:39, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

More personal abuse. Keep on that track and the question of whether you're still on WP will be taken out of your hands. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 23:36, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Something I noticed: the paragraph about Bacon's death is sourced to a book by someone named "Ficacci", but I cannot find the citation info for that source listed on the page. Can someone include and verify it? WesleyDodds (talk) 11:54, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

It should prob be removed. The article is v weak in general, which is why it pains me when people turn up citing text from way down as an aurtorative contraction to verified text in the lead. And can't be bothered to google to back the claim. "But wiki tells me so". This is circular, beyond lazy argumentative bullshit. Ceoil (talk) 12:00, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

It looks like the source is Francis Bacon 1909-1992 by Luigi Ficacci. Google Book gives you a bit of a peak if you good folks want to peruse it (I personally know nothing about whether or not this is decent source material). WesleyDodds (talk) 12:03, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Sure Wesley and thanks for checking, but that dont mean he died on the 29th. If the book says so, and I really doubt it does, it just means the book is plain wrong. More likely is subtle vandelism. I know what I'm taking about and have two FAs on Bacon, and know an attack dog when I see one. Ceoil (talk) 13:06, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Where was Francais Bacon actually born Some websites say Francais was born in England and he has no Irish blood ties.Bacon was a second name is english,Richard Bacon is a presenter in England.Francis Bacon was born on January 22nd, 1561, at York House, Strand, London http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Woody ty (talk • contribs) 18:15, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

This is his article Francis Bacon, the wrong guy. Murry1975 (talk) 18:17, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

New external link

I would like to add a link to the Francis Bacon Opera, the libretto of which is a direct transcription of the South Bank Show mentioned in the article. Schmeditator (talk) 20:11, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Link now added. Schmeditator (talk) 13:48, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Recent addition of poor quality references and edit warring

• http://books.google.ie/books?hl=en&lr=&id=NCi9TZvvR2IC&oi=fnd&pg=PA305&dq=%22irish+painter+Francis+bacon%22&ots=5A3eCZmLNE&sig=9jTM7zLpGpICz8IDhtk7fpwXMtk&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false unavailable for viewing
• http://nonsite.org/issues/issue-1/paul-valery-from-author-to-audience%7B%7B 404 Not found
• http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/29736401?uid=3738032&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21101207658103 calls him Anglo Irish
• http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/brill/raa/2012/00000016/00000003/art00003 no mention of Bacon here?
• http://escholarship.org/uc/item/84x5v5qj#page-1 no mention of Bacon here either?
• http://www.bibliotecadigital.unicamp.br/document/?code=000862419 error 404

It's not improving the look of the article.Theroadislong (talk) 16:47, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

• "Unavailable for viewing": Consult your local library.
• "404 not found": Fixed
• "calls him Anglo Irish": Anglo-Irish is his ethnicity, Irish is his nationality. Anglo Irish people are Irish people of English descent.
• " no mention of Bacon here?". It's within the text, just not in the abstract
• "no mention of Bacon here either?" Bacon's mentioned many times.
• "error 404" Working just fine for me.

Alohamesamis (talk) 17:20, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Protected

This page is protected for editing for one month to prevent the low grade edit war that is currently being acted out over Bacon's nationality. I suggest involved parties discuss the matter, escalating to an RFC if the situation demands. I'd advise all parties to review WP:CONSENSUS, WP:EDITWAR and WP:DISPUTE in an effort to resolve the matter rather than using the page as a battleground. These policy points are important to bear in mind especially:

• When protecting a page because of a content dispute, administrators normally protect the current version, except where the current version contains content that clearly violates content policies, such as vandalism, copyright violations, or defamation of living persons.
• The obligation on talk pages is to explain why an addition, change, or removal improves the article, and hence the encyclopedia. Other considerations are secondary. This obligation applies to all editors: consensus can be assumed if editors stop responding to talk page discussions, and editors who ignore talk page discussions yet continue to edit in or revert disputed material may be guilty of disruptive editing and incur sanctions.
• Editors who refuse to allow any consensus except the one they insist on, and who filibuster indefinitely to attain that goal, risk damaging the consensus process.
• In some cases, disputes are personal or ideological rather than mere disagreements about content, and these may require the intervention of administrators or the community as a whole. Sysops will not rule on content, but may intervene to enforce policy (such as WP:BLP) or to impose sanctions on editors who are disrupting the consensus process inappropriately.
• Edit warring is unconstructive and creates animosity between editors, making it harder to reach a consensus. Users who engage in edit wars risk being blocked or even banned. Note that an editor who repeatedly restores his or her preferred version is edit warring, whether or not his or her edits were justifiable: it is no defence to say "but my edits were right, so it wasn't edit warring".
• Talking to other parties is not a formality; it's imperative to the smooth running of any community. Not having a discussion, or discussing poorly, will make people less sympathetic to your position and may prevent you from effectively using later stages in dispute resolution. Sustained discussion between the parties, even if not immediately (or even remotely) successful, shows that you are trying to reach a consensus. Also consider negotiating a truce or compromise.
• Focus on article content, not on editor conduct. Wikipedia is built upon the principle of collaboration, and assuming that the efforts of others are in good faith is important to our community. Bringing up conduct often leads to painful digressions and misunderstandings.

If the dispute resolves itself within the time the page has been protected, please demonstrate consensus on the talk page and then request unprotection from myself or at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection. I could not find a good point to revert back to, so I have protected the current version. Best regards, Hiding T 12:04, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

RFC: How should Bacon's nationality be described?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Should Bacon's nationality be described as "Irish" as the references indicate, or as "Irish-born British", which is original research and implies that he lost or gave up his Irish citizenship? Alohamesamis (talk) 22:16, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

• Irish—if he was born in Ireland and lived there until the age of 20, he was Irish. This sophistry about passports is immaterial—what matters is where he was born and grew up. If you can come up with a reliable source that says he was born in Oxford and grew up in London, then you can say he was British. What the source calls him (e.g., Anglo-Irish) is irrelevant because the source does not follow Wikipedia house style. Abhayakara (talk) 23:33, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
  • For the purposes of determining consensus can you clarify what it is you are referring to as house style please. MOS:BIO states In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable.
  • This would be relevant here, as would the essay at Wikipedia:Nationality of people from the United Kingdom. I would direct participants in the recent edit war to specifically appraise themselves of Wikipedia:Nationality of people from the United Kingdom#Changing an existing UK nationality. Hiding T 15:06, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
• Current wording is fine. Born to English parents, spent the majority of his life in Britain and is called British by reliable sources. If anything, the "Irish-born" bit is superfluous. — Jon C.^ॐ 09:20, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Just to add a few sources, the Museum of Modern Art, Encyclopaedia Britannica, BBC and Tate all call him either British or English, and his own website calls him an "English painter of Irish birth". I actually support a change to "Irish-born English" in line with the last source. — Jon C.^ॐ 09:24, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

He was born to Irish parents, not English. He is called Irish by reliable sources. Irish and British aren't mutually exclusive. Alohamesamis (talk) 10:30, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Francis Bacon's father Eddy Bacon was NOT Irish he was born in Adelaide, South Australia Christina Winifred ‘Winnie’ Loxley Bacon was NOT Irish she was born in Sheffileld http://www.francis-bacon.com/world/?c=Family Theroadislong (talk) 11:13, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

• Bacon was born in Dublin of English parents and lived there until he was 16. It would be accurate to call him "Irish born" but not "Irish". His website self identifies him as an "English painter of Irish birth". I agree that "Irish-born English" in line with the source would be the preferred option.Theroadislong (talk) 09:57, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

"His website"? He doesn't have a personal website, he's been dead twenty years. Alohamesamis (talk) 10:30, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Its run by the estate. Ceoil (talk) 11:51, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

"The estate" isn't Bacon. Alohamesamis (talk) 21:27, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

• support current version "Irish-born British", per previous exhaustive discussions. It is original research to say he ever had actual Irish citizenship (as in a passport), though he certainly would have qualified for it. "British" (or English) is used by most RS, and it it is hardly OR or synthesis to add that he was born in Ireland. Johnbod (talk) 15:49, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Anyone described by Thatcher as "“That dreadful man who paints those horrible pictures"[37] automatically gets a passport, whether born here or not. Ceoil (talk) 22:37, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

We have no sources that describe him as Irish born British. We have a dozen sources that describe him as Irish. !!!!

• Irish-born English/British. This is the description given in most every authorative bio, and one never disputed by Bacon himself, though he did consider himself in Irish in many ways. At the same time, he never returned after leaving at 20, what was there to come back to. Ceoil (talk) 18:40, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

He never disputed being Irish Alohamesamis (talk) 17:05, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Because he couldnt have cared less about the shit you are trying to push. You and Jon C are as bad as each other, and deserve each other. Ceoil (talk) 11:53, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Don't tell me you've still got a stick up your arse over WBY? Get a grip, man. — Jon C.^ॐ 16:02, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Nope. We each gave as good as we got there. I still reckon I could kick your hole but thats another matter;) But Im really, seriously, bored with this bollicks about Bacon, over what to me is such a small matter. Perhalps the major painter of the last century, and this is what we argure about? He's mine, no I want to claim him? Who cares. Ceoil (talk) 16:54, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Eh... Is there a pre-existing disagreement outside of this page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alohamesamis (talk • contribs) 21:23, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

There is yeah. A massive conspiracy between Irish and English prole wiki editors to deny Bacon. But dont tell anyone! Promise! Ceoil (talk) 21:56, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

• Irish-born British for now, at least. It's been extensively discussed in the fairly recent past and this is the formulation that has received most support. I think changing it would require significant new information to be researched. Incidentally, I don't like "Irish-born English". It reads oddly and I don't think we have any information that he particularly identified as English. Formerip (talk) 21:08, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

We have no sources that describe him as "Irish-born British". Alohamesamis (talk) 17:05, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

[38] [39] [40] [41] [42] [43] Formerip (talk) 17:41, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Academic sources outweigh news websites and a gallery's public page by a long shot. Alohamesamis (talk) 17:33, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

• Its what he is, to be honest. Biographers who knew him very intimatly, Daniel Farson, David Sylvester, Michael Peppiatt, and Michel Leiris all described him as so during his life. Basically English, but born in Ireland. Ceoil (talk) 22:30, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm not saying he's not English, but it just doesn't sit well, unless there's a very specific reason to prefer it over "British", which reads more naturally alongside "Irish-born" and less like a pointed denial of his Irishness, which doesn't seem appropriate. Formerip (talk) 23:34, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I get that. Wasnt getting at you at all, more thinking aloud. I know its odd sounding, but I'm thinking I prefer English to British. Ceoil (talk)

• Comment. This RfC is worded very poorly. The question should be neutral. If someone could link to previous discussions of this issue it would be appreciated. Insomesia (talk) 05:19, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

See archive 1, nearly all of it. I'm not sure why archive 2 shows as a redlink. Johnbod (talk) 12:47, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

• Irish as reliable sources describe him and as is correct: [44]

[45] [46]

[47]

[48] [49] [50] [51] [52] [53] [54] Alohamesamis (talk) 10:30, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Yes, now do the google search for "british+painter+francis+bacon" [55] - Britannica, Gardner's art through the Ages, BBC etc etc. Then there's "english". Johnbod (talk) 12:47, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Google search ≠ a reliable source. His ethnicity was Anglo-Irish. His citizenship was first British, then Irish and British. His nationality was Irish. Alohamesamis (talk) 17:05, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

You are making this up I'm afraid. His parents, with him in tow, were part of the very high proportion of Protestants who left southern Ireland in the years after independence (or almost independence) mainly because they did not want to have Irish nationality. He can more plausibly be regarded as a refugee from Irish nationality than a holder of it. His ethnicity was not Anglo-Irish in the normal sense either, as the family was too recently arrived, and Anglo-Irishness is a cultural not an ethnic construct. Johnbod (talk) 18:10, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

No, I'm not. "Refugee from Irish nationality"? You're deluded. Alohamesamis (talk) 19:52, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Johnbod is right, Bacon's parents spent time in ireland, because his father was positioned/stationed here for that time, I suspect because he was being put out to grass. Whatever, thats a very different situatuaion to being anglo irish. Ceoil (talk) 02:02, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Describe him as both British and Irish? Isn't that a fair compromise? Always too much emphasis put on birth-place and citizenship...--85.210.106.83 (talk) 17:48, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

And how did you come to be here, Mr IP? — Jon C.^ॐ 09:28, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Comment. This RFC is not formulated in a neutral manner and should be changed. As regards the issue of how to describe Bacon's nationality personally I'd favour the solution provided by the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography. In that piece they never mention his nationality or citizenship. They just open the bio by stating that he was born in Dublin, the second of five children, to English parents. From that you can draw whatever inferences you find most palatable as to his nationality or citizenship but I bet he never gave a shit. FiachraByrne (talk) 21:05, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

That sounds like an eminently neutral solution.Theroadislong (talk) 21:17, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

It's certainly neutral, but it's also a less reliable source than Bacon's own estate. — Jon C.^ॐ 21:28, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

That's not a statement by his estate but a quote from a secondary source; a chapter in an edited volume by Mark Harden. [56] FiachraByrne (talk) 21:45, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

It's normal WP style to include a nationality in the first sentence. The moment you omit it people will re-add it according to taste, & we're back to step -7. Johnbod (talk) 02:47, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Right. Probably valid point. The answer is self-evident anyway.

Nationality of Francis Bacon: Google Scholar Results

Search Term	Results	Link
"British artist Francis Bacon" OR "British painter Francis Bacon"	114	[57]
"English artist Francis Bacon" OR "English painter Francis Bacon"	51	[58]
"Irish painter Francis Bacon" OR "Irish artist Francis Bacon"	34	[59]
"Anglo-Irish artist Francis Bacon" OR "Anglo-Irish painter Francis Bacon"	10	[60]
"Irish-born artist Francis Bacon" OR "Irish-born painter Francis Bacon" OR "Dublin-born artist Francis Bacon" OR "Dublin-born painter Francis Bacon"	5	[61]
"Irish-born British artist Francis Bacon" OR "Irish-born British painter Francis Bacon" OR "Dublin-born British artist Francis Bacon" OR "Dublin-born British painter Francis Bacon"	2	[62]
"Irish-English artist Francis Bacon" OR "Irish-English painter Francis Bacon"	2	[63]

Just call him British and mention where he was born. Job done.FiachraByrne (talk) 18:35, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Also he's self-definition might be relevant.

"For a start, you can't really say that I'm Irish. It is true that I was born in Ireland and that there are some things I like about Ireland, especially the way people construct their sentences...."

"I was born in Dublin but I'm not Irish. I lived in Dublin until I was 16..."

"The English hate me because I'm Irish" (not sure if this is RS). FiachraByrne (talk) 18:51, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

"I don't mind whether I'm English or Irish, but the thing about this is that obviously as I was there till I was about fifteen" FiachraByrne (talk) 18:54, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for this useful research, but to repeat my point above, part of the aim is find a formula that is accurate, within WP guidelines, and will be stable. Past experience suggests that the current one is the most stable, and very few here are actually pushing to remove "Irish-born". You are nowadays not supposed I think to put the place of birth in the first line, and with or without that experience shows peole will keep trying to put "Irish" in, & reviving these tedious debates. Some of those quotes should probably be worked into the text, maybe with the others in a note. Johnbod (talk) 19:17, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Fair points. Reads a bit horribly but Irish-born British it is then. FiachraByrne (talk) 00:32, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

"Irish-born British" seems to be the optimal wording. I will note, though, that in a vast number of articles about persons born in Xland and later famous as citizens of Ystan, the country of birth is not mentioned in the lede at all: I think of Isaac Asimov, for example. I will concede, though, that my specialty is Americans, especially of the 19th century, who came here from all over the globe. --Orange Mike | Talk 14:57, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

There is, or used to be, a US-specific guideline somewhere that "Ukranian-born American" etc was not allowed in the first line. But that reflects particular American preoccupations re the huddled masses, & need not concern us here I think. Johnbod (talk) 15:14, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

I agree that the wording is not optimal, but in all reality is the best option. Cheers!RichardMills65 (talk) 20:36, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

• None of the above I came to close but then had an opinion, so will share it. The Bio MOS does not require anything about this in the first sentence, and it seems not that important. He was an artist, not some nationalist. The Bio Mos only asks that you, somewhere in the lead, summarize his life: eg. 'He was born in _______ and later ______.' So dump the ungainly and infelicitous phrase altogether, and then there is nothing to fight over. Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:22, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

As explained above, Wikipedia readers abhor a vacuum, & if you take it out it will be 5 minutes before people start putting something back in. Johnbod (talk) 00:31, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

There is no vacuum in: "Francis Bacon (28 October 1909 – 28 April 1992) was a figurative painter known for his bold, graphic and emotionally raw imagery." And the summary of his life doesn't end at that sentence, either. Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:39, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

I agree. After some thought, this seems the best option and gets over some of the posturing that has occurred on numerous articles over the years. @Johnbod, we can use a nowiki tag to warn prospective future editors that the lede has been agreed by consensus to mention nationality/place of birth in that way. --HighKing (talk) 09:51, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Is there any consensus for going for English painter of Irish birth or something similar, as on his website? — Jon C.^ॐ 09:09, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Don't think so. I believe the proposal from Alanscottwalker (right above these comments) makes most sense given how these discussions tend to go. --HighKing (talk) 09:51, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Have gone. There is a long-standing, if narrow, consensus that the current "Irish-born British" is best, or least bad. This has been endlessly discussed going back years. Anyone joining the debate really needs to check out the previous discussions, which occupy the great majority of this page & the archives. Johnbod (talk) 12:35, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Martin Harrison

I wanted to create an article on Martin Harrison, whom I happened to know of as a writer on photography, but who of course is also prominent in work on Bacon. And so I created it: Martin Harrison. It's a poor, scrappy little thing, in part because I can find little about Harrison from reliable sources. Perhaps people interested in Bacon would be able to add to it. If so, please do improve on my modest start. -- Hoary (talk) 12:54, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

PS Johnbod has already amplified the article a little (thank you!), but others would be most welcome too. -- Hoary (talk) 14:09, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

"Irish born British"

Why are we using this phrasing when we have a wealth of references describing him as Irish, and none describing him as Irish born British? At the time of his birth, Irish and British were not mutually exclusive, in the same way that describing Sean Connery as Scottish doesn't take away from the fact that his citizenship is British. Alohamesamis (talk) 13:09, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Because had British parents, spent most of his life in the UK, and at the at the time of his death (and for most of his life) they were mutually exclusive. It's already been pointed out above that the references you're providing aren't reliable. — Jon C.^ॐ 17:54, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Those points are incorrect. His parents were of British descent, not British. Spending most of your life in a country does not make you a national of that country. At his birth, they were not mutually exclusive. But, for most of his life, his citizenship would have been Irish, not British. As pointed out above, the references I provided were very reliable. Alohamesamis (talk) 22:51, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Have you provided a source that says he had Irish citizenship, or is that guesswork on your part? — Jon C.^ॐ 09:11, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

I think Alohamesamis is not an expert on Irish history! "Irish citizenship" as such, and Irish passports, did not exist until 1935 as far as I can see, long after Bacon had moved to England, and until 1949 Irish citizens were regarded also as British citizens by the British authorities. There was a temporary domestic legal position from 1922 onwards, but it would seem no passports. There is no evidence Bacon ever took an Irish passport. Btw British and Irish citizenship have never been "mutually exclusive" and many people have both. Johnbod (talk) 13:47, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

No idea where you get the impression that Irish passports didn't exist before 1935. They were available from 1923, and on general release from 1924. However, the idea that, for instance James Joyce, (who never held an Irish passport}, was less Irish than say WB Yeats, (who received one of the first}, is frankly ridiculous. RashersTierney (talk) 14:13, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. You could usefully add a link and that information, referenced of course, to Irish nationality law, which speaks only of "domestic" arrangements before 1935. I was responding to the silly statements of Alohamesamis above, but Bacon and the Duke of Wellington are not quite the same as Joyce or Yeats, are they? Johnbod (talk) 14:41, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

The present Irish state has been in existence since the 1930's. Bacon died in the 1990's. There is nothing "silly" about any of my points.

Alohamesamis (talk) 17:56, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Please change "irish-born British" to "irish" or to "irish who worked mainly in London" because of the following; The <Official Website of The Estate of Francis Bacon (francis-bacon.com)> says he was born AND grew up in Ireland apart from a stint in London during WW1. He then went travelling in 1926/1928 to London, Berlin, Paris and back to London. Also, when Francis was born in Ireland under British rule he would be British by his passport and then he would be automatically Irish by 1922 <irish nationality law on wikipedia> and could later reclaim his British nationality <british nationality law on wikipedia> which there is no evidence that he did. So he's irish until proven otherwise. Further to that it threatens the credibility of Wikipedia if a survey of people decide he is British because they think so. Someone's nationality cannot decided by concensus which is whats happening here. Ignoring the above facts above would be more than disappointing but also from what we KNOW it it is incorrect and an injustice to be so arbitrary. 109.78.211.58 (talk) 14:05, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

He was born in Ireland, even the complication of the six counties does not come into it. The free state or Republic is a red herring. Do you mean to suggest that everyone born on the island of Ireland, before 1922 were British? He is Irish. The vast majority of the nation has Norman, Celtic and Anglo-Saxon blood(and thankfully more cultures are added in recent times) who are all Irish(nationality), regardless of race. The fact that he was born in Ireland is a fact. Why has the onus of whether he was British or Irish defaulted to 'prove he is Irish'? This is appallingly biased editing. This logic would mean, anyone, whose parents were not of the nationality, of the geographical location of said person's birthplace, would have their nationality stripped. This smacks of the most perverse racism. An child with Irish parents, born in America, is American. Is there a standing count for how many years you must live in a country after you are born, to be stripped? How has this got past the Editors? Racist nationals could not have done a better job. Rabid Irish nationals baulked at the suggestion that Britain's greatest General was Irish. Daniel O'Connell saying "Just because one is born in a stable..." This suited British nationalists as well so the phrase was put in the Duke's mouth. Born in Ireland. Irish Painter. >This is objective fact. Everything else is subjective and should not be tolerated in a publication that claims to be an encyclopedia or are the facts reduced to the nationality of the editors? Those of 'consensus' opinion are going to be busy, modifying every Irish persons wikipedia entry who were born pre 1922. How many generations are you going to go back? Perhaps the Norman members of Ireland(i.e everyone) should be changed to Irish born-French.

Lede

Should the lede describe Bacon as Irish orAnglo-Irish?

Irish. Anglo-Irish is not a nationality, it is an ethnicity. Ethnicity should not be emphasised in the lede, per WP:BIO. Ango-Irish should be changed to Irish in the lede for the exact same reasons outlined at Talk:W._B._Yeats#Nationality_again. 89.100.150.198 (talk) 00:58, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Bacon was an Irish-born Brit. Writegeist (talk) 02:18, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

• Irish or, possibly, Irish-born British. According to the article, he lived in Ireland until the age of 20, which might suggest the former, unless he held a British passport. --FormerIP (talk) 10:11, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

• Anglo-Irish. It's succinct, to the point and a natural label, unlike Irish-born British or something similar. It's also in use throughout the encyclopaedia, so you'll have lot of changing to go. Edward Carson, what's he? The Duke of Wellington? If it ain't broke, don't fix it. JonC^Talk 10:14, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

It's broke, because it goes against WP:OPENPARA. I don't know whether there are a lot a similar cases but, if so, there is also a lot of time, so that's OK. --FormerIP (talk) 10:31, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Having a lot of work to do is no excuse for not doing the work. 89.100.150.198 (talk) 15:36, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Good man 89.100.150.198. Ceoil (talk) 20:55, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

The trouble is that Bacon was not Anglo-Irish, which does not mean just well-off, Protestant and Irish. As exhaustively discussed in archived sections, his mother was his only ancestor born in Ireland, but her parents came from England. Yeats & Wilde were Anglo-Irish, Bacon not. I'm interested to see Ceoil was reverting to "Irish-born British" back in 2009! Johnbod (talk) 01:11, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

He was Irish, and of Engish descent. That makes him Anglo-Irish. But that's an ethnicity, and so does not belong in the lede as per WP:OPENPARA. So he should be described simply as Irish in the lede. 89.100.150.198 (talk) 17:38, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Anglo-Irish is normally meant more specifically than Irish with English ancestry, 89.100.150.198. That aside, though, what are your reasons for preferring "Irish" to "Irish-born British"? --FormerIP (talk) 19:02, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Because he's Irish. 89.100.150.198 (talk) 19:26, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

But he's also British, it seems: [64]. --FormerIP (talk) 19:30, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Well yes, Ireland was part of the UK at the time of his birth, which would have made him British. But nobody says we have to use as broad a term as British. Sean Connery for example is described as "a Scottish actor" not a British actor or a Scottish-born British actor. See WP:UKNATIONALS. Calling him "Irish-born British" makes it sound as if Bacon was Irish, ceased to be Irish, and became British, when in fact he was British by dint of being Irish. 89.100.150.198 (talk) 19:47, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Connery strongly identifies as Scottish. Other editors have worked long & hard to come up with any evidence that Bacon self-identified as Irish, without success. see the talk archive. Johnbod (talk) 20:43, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

• Irish-born British is best per WP:NPOV. The source the IP added was not a particularly good one. --John (talk) 19:04, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

How is Irish-born British NPOV? There is nothing wrong with that source. 89.100.150.198 (talk) 19:26, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Irish-born British seems to perfectly capture that he was born in Ireland and was British. We would need valid references that he considered himself to be Irish to call him Irish. I don't think those exist, so I am fine with leaving it like this. An alternative would be to remove all mention of his nationality from the lede para; I could also live with that. --John (talk) 01:24, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

I could live with the lede having no mention of nationality. But why on earth would we need reference to a self description to call him Irish but not to call him British? 89.100.150.198 (talk) 13:38, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Apart from whatever relevant guidelines have to say, it would be an endless battle keeping it out of the lead, as people expect (rightly imo) something in the first sentence. Johnbod (talk) 15:33, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

How about "British [painter] from Ireland...", as at C S Lewis? JonC^Talk 11:33, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Rather odd as a description of Lewis (from a classic Ulster Protestant background), but might work for Bacon. Worth a try. Johnbod (talk) 15:33, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

What would be your preferred wording for Mr Lewis? He was born pre-partition, so any mention of Northern Ireland's out of the question, and – as the IP above keeps so keenly pointing out – ethnicity aren't supposed to be emphasised in the lead, so we can't have Ulster-Scot, Ulster Prod, etc. JonC^Talk 08:18, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, I suppose we are stuck with an odd wording in the lead - it won't be the first time. Can one mention Ulster - very much the term in his childhood years? Or "British writer from an Irish Protestant background"? Johnbod (talk) 14:17, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree that it's not ideal. I wouldn't have a problem with mentioning Ulster or his background in the lead, but we should take this to the appropriate talk page if you want to press on. JonC^Talk 14:35, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

• The current wording " Irish-born British" sounds right to me. (or British painter from Ireland.) Though he as born in Dublin, his career does not seem to have any Irish influences whatsoever. "Anglo-Irish " implies an Irish component to his work, & I do not think this has been claimed by anyone. DGG ( talk ) 07:39, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

In Ireland & the UK, Anglo-Irish also has a particular implication of belonging to the former Ascendency Protestant ruling class (see also Anglo-Indian for another "special" case) & is treated as an ethnicity on WP (rather dubiously imo). Bacon was not Anglo-Irish in this sense, though paradoxically if he had chosen to live his adult life in Ireland, he might arguably have become Anglo-Irish eventually.

• "Irish-born British" seems fine, or "British artist born in Ireland" (or, really, "British" or "Irish"). Far more of a problem is the apparently un-sourced:

A sickly child with asthma and a violent allergy to dogs and horses, Francis was often given morphine to ease his suffering during attacks. Despite his condition, Captain Bacon would continue to force Francis on hunting excursions, in attempt to build his "sissy" son into the masculine archetype. Young Francis once slept aside a dog, to which he was deeply allergic, just to avoid the hunt the following morning. These countless ordeals with asthma explain his reserves of stoicism, most famously exampled on the day of the suicide of his past lover, George Dyer, where despite knowledge of Dyer's death, Bacon continued to show great restraint in dealing with various journalists and the day's press activities. Additionally, his case of asthma can give reason to the constant "optimistic about nothing" ethos, which he sporadically though reverently spoke about to journalists. This attitude can be understood more entirely in the context of his permanent struggle with asthma, and the fact, that unlike most, he valued entirely such a seemingly trivial thing as breathing. The family shifted houses often, moving back and forth between Ireland and England several times during this period, leading to a feeling of displacement that would remain with the artist throughout his life.

Rich Farmbrough, 14:29, 21 October 2011 (UTC).

And indeed this seems lifted from Francis Bacon: Anatomy of an Enigma. Removing as a copyvio. Rich Farmbrough, 14:35, 21 October 2011 (UTC).

It says he was born in Georgian Dublin, so I think his Georgian heritage should be emphasised. (this is a joke btw, for those who are veterans of this argument from years gone by) 89.100.251.145 (talk) 15:05, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Please change "irish-born British" to "irish" or to "irish who worked mainly in London" because of the following; The <Official Website of The Estate of Francis Bacon (francis-bacon.com)> says he was born AND grew up in Ireland apart from a stint in London during WW1. He then went travelling in 1926/1928 to London, Berlin, Paris and back to London. Also, when Francis was born in Ireland under British rule he would be British by his passport and then he would be automatically Irish by 1922 <irish nationality law on wikipedia> and could later reclaim his British nationality <british nationality law on wikipedia> which there is no evidence that he did. So he's irish until proven otherwise. Further to that it threatens the credibility of Wikipedia if a survey of people decide he is British because they think so. Someone's nationality cannot decided by concensus which is whats happening here. Ignoring the above facts above would be more than disappointing but also from what we KNOW it it is incorrect and an injustice to be so arbitrary. 109.78.211.58 (talk) 14:06, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 11 August 2013

Please change "irish-born British" to "irish" or to "irish who worked mainly in London" because of the following; The <Official Website of The Estate of Francis Bacon (francis-bacon.com)> says he was born AND grew up in Ireland apart from a stint in London during WW1. He then went travelling in 1926/1928 to London, Berlin, Paris and back to London. Also, when Francis was born in Ireland under British rule he would be British by his passport and then he would be automatically Irish by 1922 <irish nationality law on wikipedia> and could later reclaim his British nationality <british nationality law on wikipedia> which there is no evidence that he did. So he's irish until proven otherwise. Further to that it threatens the credibility of Wikipedia if a survey of people decide he is British because they think so. Someone's nationality cannot decided by concensus which is whats happening here. Ignoring the above facts above would be more than disappointing but also from what we KNOW it it is incorrect and an injustice to be so arbitrary. 109.78.211.58 (talk) 13:31, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Not done: Please see this discussion. The community consensus at this time is that the optimal wording is "Irish-born British." Although consensus can change, this decision is fairly recent and proposing to change a recent consensus can be considered disruptive. -Ryan 22:57, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Correction of "Massacre of the innocents" link

The hiperlink is misleading to a work that's not Nicolas Poussin's painting. I don't know hot to do ti, so I ask someone to. This is the actual painting that inspired Bacon: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/Nicolas_Poussin_-_Le_massacre_des_Innocents_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.22.152.49 (talk) 04:17, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Nationality again

On the issue of the description of Bacon as "Irish born, British figurative painter" this has been a subject of dispute among a number of user/editors of Wikipedia, clearly the talk page requests users to be objective and report Facts supported by evidence in adhering to this principle the description "Irish born" is entirely appropriate back up by historical evidence of the Irish National census of 1911 (please see link http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai002575018/).There is clearly a bias against describing Bacon as Irish as his nationality and forcefully purporting him to be a "British painter" due to his parents nationality they are described as "English" yes his mother was born in England but his father was born in Australia -as can be seen again the census 1911 enumerators abstract. In reporting these facts I would request the Lede be changed to reflect facts "Francis Bacon was born in Dublin, Ireland in 1909" etc, and delete the British description. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Haseoffergeld (talk • contribs) 02:36, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

The consensus above seems to show "Irish born British". Until there is consensus to change that then it should stay. Please note I am not commenting upon whether that is the correct description.Martin451 01:39, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

After consulting the handful of books I have on Bacon, the consensus appears to be correct. Garamond Lethet
c 19:54, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Main image for article

User:Ceoil removed the Reginald Gray portrait of Bacon with the edit summary "nope" and "its terrible". The portrait of Bacon,[65] is an illustration of the article's subject and is preferable I think, as a main image. We already have numerous images of his paintings. Theroadislong (talk) 18:11, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

You seem more concerened with my words than actions. Ceoil (talk) 18:17, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

And no, we dont have numerous images on wiki, least of all self portraits. Ceoil (talk) 18:18, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps it would be clearer if the caption indicated that it was a self portrait? Theroadislong (talk) 18:30, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Ceoil might not like Gray's portrait but it is a long standing exhibit, a part of the permanent of London's National Portrait Gallery. The taste of editor's in not the question here. Span (talk) 21:17, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Nevertheless, NPG or not, a self portrait is still the better option. Frankly I'm finding it hard to believe I'm discussing this. Ceoil (talk) 03:52, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to see what he looks like. Thincat (talk) 10:18, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

I agree that the portrait by Gray is poor, and propose the use of Freud's painting of Bacon [66]. There are copyright issues, but perhaps these can be answered as they are at the wikipaintings page: the image is a historically significant artwork, only being used for informational and educational purposes, is readily available on the internet and is a low resolution copy of the original artwork and is unsuitable for commercial use. JNW (talk) 15:33, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Also wonder if this could be used [67]. JNW (talk) 15:40, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Freud's portrait should be included, no question, but maybe not for the lead. A person page hopping and beiefly landing on the article might think its a self portrait. Ceoil (talk) 20:18, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Minor edit

Article reads: "In the late 1990s a number previously assumed destroyed major works,..."

Should be "In the late 1990s a number of previously assumed destroyed major works,..."

That is all ChipMcCormick (talk) 02:13, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

YDone, and I've copy edited it a bit as well. --Stfg (talk) 13:28, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Edit request, 13 November 2013

Restricting who edits defeats the point of Wikipedia. Nonetheless, please update auction market to reflect his latest $142.4-million sale. While you're at it, please review the Talk section and follow up on suggested edits. This entry contains errors and half-truths. Thank you.

98.210.23.101 (talk) 04:52, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

The page was semi-protected to defend it from disruptive editing, which also defeats the point of Wikipedia. We can add the sale -- please could you provide a reliable source? (A mainstream newspaper report would be fine.) Review and followup is a bigger job. Edit semi-protected requests need to be in a "please change X to Y format" --Stfg (talk) 13:28, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Sadly, that's the only way it could work around here...Anyway, the article now mentions this extraordinary sale, no surprise as it's likely to feature on ITN... (OMGAWD NO NATIONALITY ARGUMENTS HAVE BEEN STARTED YET!) --Somchai Sun (talk) 22:30, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

School of London

As far as I've read the school of london was a sunday magazine construct, so as attach and increase the saleability of Graham Sutherland and Frank Auerbach. As such I have revered the re-addition of the template. Bacon in the end would have shodered in his grave to be associated. Jesus he described Goya as "not of the first rank", and in the end even rejected Lucian Freud. Lone fish. Ceoil (talk) 10:50, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

A discusion over at the template, which should stay until consensus is reached, would be the best way. Discussing it here will still leave Bacon on it- and it not here, if you get my meaning. Murry1975 (talk) 11:09, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Over at the template? Excuse me? Templates now trump content? You meaning is sort of all over the place. You claim BRD, but still "Discussing it here will still leave Bacon on it". In other words, fuck off Ceoil. Ceoil (talk) 11:15, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

R. B. Kitaj used the phrase the "School of London" in a 1976 catalogue for an exhibition he curated ("The Human Clay").[68] This mention [69] suggests Francis Bacon would have been the leader of the virtual school…clearly it wasn't anything official or organised though.Theroadislong (talk) 12:24, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

I agree - I'd think of Bacon, Freud & Kitaj before Sutherland and Auerbach. Johnbod (talk) 14:46, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

So he was included in the school, we have a template for the school that actually has him on it, yet it gets removed. Any logic objections to re-installing this template? And if its usefulness and indeed its accuracy needs discussion we should use the actual talkpage of the template, again any objections? Murry1975 (talk) 20:57, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure Bacon himself was comfortable with being associated with Kitaj, although Kitaj was obviously trying to associate himself. Ceoil (talk) 20:15, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Bacon may not have been comfortable with it but Wikipedia should be led by what the sources say. The "School of London" was construed by Kitaj in the catalogue of the exhibition The Human Clay in 1976, The Tate considers the catalogue to be "one of the key art historical texts of the period" and Bacon is considered a member by multiple reliable sources… [70] [71] [72] [73] [74] [75] [76] There should be no objection to re-installing the template? Theroadislong (talk) 21:41, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

No. Look, if I was wrong about this I was wrong and fine, go ahead. The dispute is not now for this page, more for the school of london page. I might go through the interviews and see if he passed an openion on his inclusion, but for now, grand. Ceoil (talk) 23:57, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Readibably available parrationing sources you say, but grand. Ceoil (talk) 00:40, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Francis Bacon (painter)

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Francis Bacon (painter)'s orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "R151":

• From Triptych, May–June 1973: Russell 1971, p. 151
• From Black Triptychs: Russell, 151

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 02:50, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Adding to the bot's comments, the Russell references are still broken. The text cites Russel 1970, Russel 1971, and just plain Russell. Yet there is only one Russell in the biblio, namely Russell 1993. Needs fixed by someone who knows the material (not me). 70.114.180.201 (talk) 00:34, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Also, a reference to "Ficacci, 94" was added to the Later life and death section on 29 March 2009 but there's no further detailing of the reference, then or now. -- Pemilligan (talk) 14:45, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Artist infobox

I believe it is vital to have a brief artist infobox for Francis Bacon in line with the other prominent contemporary artists of the London School. Rizalninoynapoleon (talk) 07:38, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Good to hear. Ceoil (talk) 01:52, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Can we have one? Rizalninoynapoleon (talk) 13:12, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

We need to follow this recommendation. Victoria (talk) 14:01, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

I was already bold and added one, feel free to add or remove details . Theroadislong (talk) 14:31, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

There hasn't been discussion and no consensus achieved, so the entire box - not only the fields - is up for discussion. The page has been without one for 3 years so a compelling argument to add should be provided. Victoria (talk) 14:35, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Ok... feel free to start the discussion. I have no strong feelings either way.Theroadislong (talk) 14:44, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

If you dont have strong feelings, then just dont go making bold chages. OP is obviously an antagonaist, which makes you basically either a sock master or fool. Ceoil (talk) 15:17, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Ok sorry. Theroadislong (talk) 15:36, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

np Theroadislong. Infoboxen are emotive around here. I also aplogise. Ceoil (talk) 15:45, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

No worries.Theroadislong (talk) 15:47, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

What exactly are the arguments against an infobox here? Somehow "vage generalisations on the whim of a passing editor" doesn't have the ring of rigorous academic logic. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 02:23, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

That was appalling. It made the image far too small, & gave almost misleading information of little use to anyone. A perfect example of why infoboxes are disliked. Johnbod (talk) 03:25, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

The image size is controlled by the image size parameter, which was indeed set too low, at 180px; what exactly was misleading his place and date of birth, place and date of death, and field of activity? There's now, at last, a photograph in the article; I propose adding an infobox also, as is normal in our articles about artists. Is the infobox at Lucian Freud "misleading"? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 13:46, 10 February 2014 (UTC)