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Talk:Enrichetta Chiaraviglio-Giolitti

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Photos

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Photo discussion is here SusunW (talk) 18:58, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

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Passed. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:43, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Enrichetta Chiaraviglio-Giolitti/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Amitchell125 (talk · contribs) 16:06, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Happy to review the article. AM

Thanks for looking at her Amitchell125. I look forward to collaborating with you to improve the article. Please ping me when you are ready for me to respond. SusunW (talk) 16:31, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Review comments

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Lead section / infobox
  • Link philanthropist (in the text and in the infobox); curricula (Curriculum); malaria; women's rights (here and in the Women's rights section).
  • Introduce Maria Montessori, e.g. ‘the Italian educator Maria Montessori’; Margherita of Savoy.
  • ''«Margherita di Savoia» has no quote marks, here and below.
  • The abbreviations in the final paragraph should be omitted, as they are not referred to again in the lead section.
1 Early life
  • Link procurator general.
See what you mean, probably best to leave this one, unless you want to red-link it. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:04, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm a bit reluctant to red link it, only because whatever it was (in the Kingdom of Italy) it is likely defunct. Did it only apply to Turin? Was it part of a judicial system, etc. I am not remotely sure how one would go about figuring out if the specific procurator general in Turin was a notable office. SusunW (talk) 19:54, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Amend He continued to ‘Giolitti continued’, for the sake of clarity.
Understood. AM
  • Her mother – I would amend to ‘Enrichetta’s mother’ or ‘Rosa’, to avoid readers becoming slightly confused.
  • I would start a new paragraph from Giolitti was the second child, to help separate information about her adult relatives/ancestors from her siblings and their childhood.
Understood. AM
  • a liberal environment – imparts little information (see MOS:PUFFERY), and I think could easily be omitted.
  • Disagree, liberalism provided the context, if you will, the learning environment for her be become who she was. Had she been raised in a traditional environment, women would not have been educated (other than in domestic/motherly duties). She would not have participated in political discussions (or any other discussion that did not revolve around the domestic sphere), and would have been taught that she was subordinate to her father, her husband, etc. In women's history, it imparts context and is definitely not puffery. I've linked liberalism.
Linking the word goes some way towards resolving the issue that I had in mind, although the topic of liberalism is so wide-ranging that it might be worth adding more details, if these are available, of some of the liberal idea that her parents believed in. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:08, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Added a sentence. Better? SusunW (talk) 19:54, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Better. AM
  • Thanks to her acute understanding of politics and human nature – this and the text that follows seems misplaced, as readers could assume here that a child is being discussed. At the least, it should form part of a separate paragraph.
  • I disagree, but moved the paragraph. (Sorry, I feel as if you may be beginning to think I am being argumentative, but I honestly am not. I appreciate your comments very much and am weighing each one. I am truly willing to make changes that I feel improve the article.) I don't think there is another section that logically would discuss her interactions with her father. Were she 100, she would still be his child, so to avoid the implication that her thoughts were a child's thoughts I have added "Throughout their lives" does that help? SusunW (talk) 16:10, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There's no hard-and-fast rule, but generally speaking, biographies are easier to read if the chronology is maintained. To help with this you could perhaps produce a new paragraph at the end of this section, starting from Throughout their lives.... and pop the text preceding it (The children were raised...) into the preceding paragraph. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:26, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That works. Thanks SusunW (talk) 19:40, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Giovanni – ‘Her father’.
  • Good catch, thank you. Changed first instance to Giolitti and appended her father. SusunW (talk)
  • He was more pragmatic - ‘He was more pragmatic than his daughter’?
  • (l-r) Rosa (née Sobrero) and Giovanni Giolitti, 1895 – I would simplify the caption to something like ‘Rosa and Giovanni Giolitti in 1895’.
  • Link Giovanni Giolitti in the caption.
  • where their eldest son Curio was born on 25 June 1897. Three children followed, Tito (born 1902), Sergio, and Marcella – as the children are not notable in their own right, I would consider amending this to something like ‘where the first of their four children were born’.
  • My research indicates that they were all probably notable. The business that the boys operated in Argentina is still operational and Marcella seems to have been an activist. I found a lot of sources that indicated articles about them could be written and linked to her article. SusunW (talk) 16:10, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
To make this clear to others, I would be bold and red-link any of the children that you think are notable enough. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:01, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
done SusunW (talk) 19:58, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • This section covers 40 years of the life of Giolitti, and is not, therefore, just about her early life. I would split the section, the second one perhaps covering her early adult life.
  • I find sections with only one paragraph choppy to the flow of an article, although I admit many people seem to like that form (as well as one sentence paragraphs). Articles about women before the mid-20th century often reflect that their careers or public works did not start until after their children were in school, so it's kind of a conundrum how to segment an article logically. I have renamed the section early life and family. If you think that works, then done. If you think it necessary, I will chop it into early life and early adult life. SusunW (talk) 16:10, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
See above; the amended title is an improvement. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:14, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! SusunW (talk) 19:58, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
2.1 Educational reform
  • Introduce Maria Montessori; the Agazzi sisters; Friedrich Fröbel; Tebaldo Calissano; Gisella Consolo.
  • added most. Deleted Consolo, as I cannot find a description of who she was and thus, presume she is not notable, or not at this point been recovered. The source lists only her name and a google search returns no hits other than the one book. SusunW (talk) 17:23, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • prominent - in what way were they prominent?
  • Not sure I understand the question. Working class women would not have had time to be engaged in activism, but activists were often middle-class and upper-class women. Women who had leisure time and ties to important men who could further their causes, seems to be obvious, so that cannot be what you mean. Sorry if I am being obtuse, can you explain a bit more? SusunW (talk) 17:23, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies for not being clearer. When seeing prominent, readers might ask if this means it the women were distinguished in their own right, or well known socially. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:53, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
socially engaged and well-connected? If that works, done SusunW (talk) 20:03, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds OK to me. AM
  • her school – whose school is being referred to here?
Looks good. AM
  • the Casa dei Bambini (Children's House) – it needs to be clearer whether this is her school.
  • See prior point.
  • guided play – a brief explanation of what this is would help readers imo.
  • Chiaraviglio-Giolitti in a 1912 interview with La Voce delle Maestre d'Asilo (The Voice of Kindergarten Teachers) supported Montessori - ‘In a 1912 interview with La Voce delle Maestre d'Asilo (The Voice of Kindergarten Teachers), Chiaraviglio-Giolitti supported Montessori’ sounds better imo.
  • Why Ultimately?
  • In 1910, she was appointed - ‘In 1910, Chiaraviglio-Giolitti was appointed’.
  • Link patronage.
Thanks for spotting that. AM
3 Argentina (1929–1959)
  • Introduce Giacomo Matteotti. Why did his murder make the family flee?
  • Source says "despuès del asesinato del diputado Matteotti, cuando quedaron suspendidas", but if I explain that, the sentence will go on forever. I've rewritten it a bit. Better? SusunW (talk) 18:13, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
After the murder of the anti-fascist politician Giacomo Matteotti, Italian civil liberties were curtailed - I would amend this a bit to something like 'After the murder of the anti-fascist politician Giacomo Matteotti in June 1924, Italian civil liberties were curtailed still further' to give a bit more information. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:20, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent, thanks! SusunW (talk) 20:06, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I’m unclear what a metal curtain, mentioned here, actually is.
OK, let's pretend it's obvious what it means, and leave it as it is (or alternatively trim it out as being excessively detailed). I'll let you decide. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:36, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The entire family – entire seems implausible.
  • The source says the author (Romauldi) visited with Chiaraviglio-Giolitti many times to organize his anti-fascist activities in Argentina and "my contacts with her sons and daughter (then married to my friend Gioacchino Dolci) in the Free Italy Association". I've changed it to reflect she and her children. If that works, done. SusunW (talk) 18:13, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Looks fine. AM
4 Death and legacy
  • Great Britain – is either ‘Britain’ or ‘the United Kingdom’.
  • biography, Alfredo Frassati in the History and Historiography of Modern Italy of her father – ‘biography of her father, Alfredo Frassati in the History and Historiography of Modern Italy’ sounds better imo
  • Chiaraviglio-Giolitti was a prolific letter writer - ‘she was a prolific letter writer‘ sounds better imo
  • Is it possible to comment here what happened to the Istituto di San Gregorio al Celio she set up?
5 Notes
  • reforming juvenile offenders with prison sentences – needs to be clarified, as it sounds rather as if the sentences were part of the reform process.
  • One of those programs where if you do this (enter the military, work, go to school), you don't go to jail. added as an alternative to them serving prison sentences. If that works, done SusunW (talk) 20:11, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No copyright issues found, and the spot checks I was able to do did not find any issues.

On hold

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I'm putting the article on hold for a week until 17 August to allow time for the issues raised to be addressed. Regards, Amitchell125 (talk) 06:03, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Passing

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Passing the article now, great work on an interesting topic! Amitchell125 (talk) 20:42, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Thank you for working with me on it. I genuinely appreciate your help in improving the article. SusunW (talk) 20:44, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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