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Dizzy and Russia

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remakes on the PC (using game-maker tools). I'm not convinced that these are notable titles to include in the article: merely mentioning that there is a fan base making unofficial games should be enough. 86.131.99.148 12:00, 27 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Table of fan games

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I edited the article to remove the table of fangame. Flat Out reverted my edit, suggesting it required discussion on the talk page. So, here we are.

My basic position is that while the existence of fan games for this series is notable, a huge table of all these fan games that dwarfs the rest of the article is not. It is sufficient for us to talk about their existence in general, and to provide a link to an external directory.

I will go into more detail about why I believe this to be the case if needed. Lowercaserho (talk) 12:32, 13 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Lowercaseho - the table is excessive, and technically unsourced. I think it's sufficient for the paragraph that's left to say that a game engine has been released and there are xxx number of games released for it. IF readers want to know more - that's what the links and references are for. Chaheel Riens (talk) 12:56, 13 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Lowercaserho thanks for seeking consensus, I agree that an unsourced table of this nature is overkill and doesn't add value. Flat Out (talk) 13:11, 13 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Since it's been >48 hours with no disagreement, I'm just going to go ahead and remove it again. Lowercaserho (talk) 13:03, 15 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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(This was a disagreement between Chaheel_Riens and I in edits. Bringing it here so we can discuss properly.)

There are four links now in the external links section:

I pertain that none of them really belong there, as per WP:ELNO. Covering them one at a time:

  • Yolkfolk.com -- this is a fansite, which is excluded under section 11. I don't believe that this qualifies as a recognised authority.
  • Bruce on games -- a blog, also excluded in section 11. What counts as a recognised authority for individuals is actually covered there, and suggests that an individual can only be considered a recognised authority if they at the very least meet notability standards for individuals. The author here doesn't seem to me to meet these standards; they don't have an article, for instance.
  • Dizzy Stories -- I can't actually access this page currently, which makes it somewhat harder for me to discuss. If it is regularly down, then it would be disqualified under section 16, but I'll assume that it's just an intermitent error. There are multiple issues that I see, here. First, it's a fansite (section 11 again). Second, it's a site about a specific subject (Dizzy fangames) on an article about a general subject (the Dizzy series), which disqualifies it under section 13.
  • Moby Games -- There's basically nothing here that wouldn't belong in our article, which disqualifies it under section 1. Anything that's there and doesn't belong here is because it's unverifiable (section 2).

Lowercaserho (talk) 18:33, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

ELNO doesn't say that links must be avoided, only that generally they should. Exceptions can be made.
Yollfolk is a fansite, but the fansite that hosts DizzyAge, and all the fan created games, which are referenced in the article.
Bruce Everiss may not have his own article, but he was heavily involved in the eighties software scene - he was for example one of the founders of Imagine Software, and marketing manager for Codemasters - the IP holders of the Dizzy brand.[1]
I can't access Dizzystories either, but I think you're being too narrow-minded with regard to accusing it of failing section 13 - the Dizzy fan games are not tangentially related to the article topic.
Moby - meh, ambivalent, but it does contain a list of all games and the platforms. Is Moby considered a reliable source? Not sure.
Additionally, section 16 of ELNO refers to information that is only temporarily available on the net, not the reliability of the server that hosts such information.
Chaheel Riens (talk) 17:11, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm willing to concede Yolkfolk. I still personally think they shouldn't be, but it's a close enough call that I don't feel the need to argue it. For Moby, I believe that our article ought to contain a complete list of games and platforms, comparable to Assassin's Creed#Release History or Super Mario#Releases. Would you be more comfortable with it being removed if we had such a table? (And no, Moby is considered unreliable, per WP:GAMESOURCES.) For Dizzystories, I still think that fangames are a very small aspect of the article as a whole. We already link to Dizzyage in the references of the relevant section, and if we're keeping the link to Yolkfolk then that already has an extensive section on fan games. Including Dizzystories as well seems like it gives undue weight to a minor aspect of the topic. Bruce Everiss's blog, I am undecided on. I still tend towards removing, but you make a reasonable argument. I will think on it some more. (I also wonder if he would be considered a sufficient authority that we could use his blog post as a reliable source (for the statements of fact, not the opinions).) Lowercaserho (talk) 19:23, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to go ahead and remove Dizzystories again, since it's been almost two weeks and I haven't heard back from you. I've mellowed somewhat on the other three, so I'll keep them for now, but I still strongly feel that Dizzystories doesn't belong, given that Yolkfolk is there and there are direct links to DizzyAGE in the references. Lowercaserho (talk) 05:28, 3 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ [1] Retrogamer article
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