Talk:David Archuleta/Archive 2

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Archive 2

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Please fix intro

"If he wins American Idol on May 21st, 2008, he will become the youngest Idol in the show's history--one week before he would be exactly 17 and a half (6 days younger than Jordin Sparks was when she won in 2007)." This should be removed from the lead and possibly put into the American Idol section. If he wins it can be added he was the youngest winner. 71.139.30.242 (talk) 23:11, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Religion

I know that he's from Utah, and a lot of Mormons claim that he is also Mormon. Is this true?Dan (talk) 05:35, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

• ABC News reported that he is LDS. 74.247.178.20 (talk) 19:18, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

  This might help a little. Carter | Talk to me 10:21, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

References

Can someone look at the reference layout please? Numbers 28 and 29 look all garbled into 27. I'm not real savvy on the Wiki formatting and don't know how to fix it correctly. --MartinezMD (talk) 05:43, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

It has something to do with the following edits here, but I don't have time to try and fix it myself at the moment (seeing how there's been edits since), but I thought I'd point it out to whoever does. - Io Katai (talk) 06:50, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I hadn't seen where it occurred. I think I have it fixed now. --MartinezMD (talk) 15:21, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Commercial Appearance

The commercial David appeared in was for the game Guitar Hero, not Rock Band. Sperin4 (talk) 11:09, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Do you have a source for that? Gwynand | Talk•Contribs 11:35, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Its obvious if you've seen the commercial that it was for Guitar Hero. --Mjrmtg (talk) 11:57, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Obvious that it is Guitar Hero over Rock Band? They use the same guitars. I'm sure there is a source either way. Gwynand | Talk•Contribs 12:00, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

That wasn't so hard. I'll change and put the source in. Gwynand | Talk•Contribs 12:06, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks guys. Sperin4 (talk) 06:35, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Announced, Declared, Proclaimed...

Word choices are sometimes awkward and the description of him coming in second place seems to be one that we are looking for a best fit (with several changes occurring). I changed it for now to "he became" first runner up. It wasn't a proclamation, but a contest ranking so maybe we can discuss this before we nit-pick it to death, unless of course everyone is happy with my choice ;) --MartinezMD (talk) 00:46, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

It just occured to me we could also use 'voted' first runner up since that is how he got his position. --MartinezMD (talk) 01:36, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

"Voted" works. "Became" works. But "proclaimed" (a word choice I'd seen earlier--although it might've been in the Cook article)? Gimme a break here. The Queen of England can proclaim. A bazillion giggling teens (or post-teens, such as myself) on cell phones can vote. "Voted" is a little more informative than "became," especially for those who aren't familiar with the show, but either seems to work. Cosmic Latte (talk) 06:43, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

It was here. I saw it went through a series and couldn't stand it at 'proclaimed', so out it went. --MartinezMD (talk) 06:54, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh man I didn't like it when I first saw proclaimed but it had already gone through several changes and didn't want to stir the pot. Became, I think is perfect. Well done to who changed it. Now I can rest in peace. Carter | Talk to me 09:35, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Siblings

He is the second oldest of five siblings, not the oldest of four siblings. He has a sister, Claudia, who is 18 and therefore a year older. He also has a younger brother and two younger sisters. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700226989,00.html?pg=2 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sidewalkends (talk • contribs) 13:46, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

This is correct, I've stated he has four siblings in the article. Although places on the web might state all his siblings names, there is no news article/reliable source that has given them, just blogs, etc. Please DONT add the names without a reliable source, it is somewhat a BLP issue. Gwynand | Talk•Contribs 19:25, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Protection Status

If the article is semi-protected, how is it that people who aren't signed in are able to make edits? --MartinezMD (talk) 22:28, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

They're more than welcome to create an account. Carter | Talk to me 22:56, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

That's not the point. The point is that the article is labelled as protected, but it isn't. A lot of the vandalism occurs because it is convenient. A lot can be avoided because they don't want the extra step of creating an account each time. --MartinezMD (talk) 22:58, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

That's a good point... ips have been editing... I'm not sure if the protection is set up correctly. Gwynand | Talk•Contribs 23:04, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, it looks like it wasn't protected, but the semi-protect symbol was left up from the last time. I removed it. Gwynand | Talk•Contribs 23:09, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

But I am going to ask for some semi-protection, it's been crazy recently. Gwynand | Talk•Contribs 23:21, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Jive records

is it true that david archuleta has signed with jive records as this has been noted on several sites and i think previously on here?Idolfan367 (talk) 05:38, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

No one has posted news about such a contract from a reliable source. Rumors from blogs and forums do not suffice for an encyclopedia. Thanks, Alanraywiki (talk) 19:24, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Just came here to discuss this. Here are the facts... there are rumours galore that he has signed with Jive. ONE, I repeat, ONE reliable source, a houston chronicle blog, states in a weird, secretive way that Jive announced they Archuleta will have an album out this summer. It doesnt actually state they signed him. Furthermore, the jive website is filled with press releases and a list of its artists, but there is NOTHING about Archuleta. I think we'll get some reliable news on this in the next few days, but until then, the info will have to stay out. Gwynand | Talk•Contribs 19:27, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

David Cook

Should the fact that David Cook won be mentioned in the introduction to this article? I, personally, am rather indifferent on the issue, but I figured I'd create this section as an alternative to all the edit-warring that has been going on about it. (See also the discussion at Talk:David_Cook (singer)#David_Archuleta.) Cosmic Latte (talk) 02:04, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

If you mention he was runner up, then the logical question someone would ask is 'Well, who won?' so I think it's appropriate in the body of the article, but not the lead. --MartinezMD (talk) 23:07, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

My objection is editors continually calling him the "first runner up". This is not Miss America. He's 2nd place or runner up. --Woohookitty^Woohoo! 09:19, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Accordingly, I've removed a "first" that popped up in the Archuleta reference in the Cook article and will be on the look-out in case it reappears. Cosmic Latte (talk) 11:32, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Question about Youtube Reference

OK, how is a youtube reference not reliable when the reference is a video of the person saying exactly what I referenced them saying in the article? I could reference a news story from a reliable source saying that they said this, but it would seem to me that a video of the person saying it directly would be even more credible. Am I missing something? Truthseeker7 (talk) 14:39, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Generally, YouTube is frowned upon as a source because the majority of what's on there are copyright violations. It's talked about here and here. It isn't an outright ban, but I can guarantee you that what you linked to is a copyright violation since it's taken straight from American Idol. In principle, you are correct, but the copyright policies we have (plus the fact that YouTube material can easily be manipulated even if this particular video wasn't), makes it generally not ok to link to YouTube. There are exceptions, of course, but not many. --Woohookitty^Woohoo! 09:18, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

And, for an interesting counterpoint, see this page. Cosmic Latte (talk) 09:11, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

religion

Resolved. Religion has been sourced in context as it relates to his singing. Banjeboi 00:45, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

what's the religion of david archuleta???? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.87.198.162 (talk) 01:45, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

This isn't the place for such questions, but he is Mormon. Actually, it should be added into the article that he is a Mormon. Knowitall (talk) 04:45, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Will you also add the religion to each of the other American Idol contestants? Alanraywiki (talk) 04:56, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

This should do the trick: "A Los Angeles Times article speculated why Archuleta avoided singing the first verse of 'Imagine': because 'of his religion (Mormonism), he's unlikely to espouse the song's agnostic ideal.'" Cosmic Latte (talk) 08:19, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

The reference link is dead. -WikiWes77 (talk) 21:29, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Since it was already controversial to include issues of his religion (and the associated lack of relevance), with the link dead I'll delete the section. --MartinezMD (talk) 01:46, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I've re-added this, I seem to remember we also had content showing how Mormons were ideal reality show stars in some respect and it cited Archuleta. Also a dead link shouldn't be removed. We can use the wayback machine to see what was there on theat date - in this case it's more likely the article was just archived so a newer link could also be used. Banjeboi 00:44, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

David's Male fans

It was decided here that his male fans have been dubbed the "Dudechuletas" http://www.americanidol.com/myidol/forums/topic/?tid=998623 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.243.248.25 (talk) 20:59, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm wondering if we should just axe the entire fan section. Who cares what his fans are called? A fan can look up his site and call themselves whatever he/she pleases. This isn't a fan website and the article is too long already.--MartinezMD (talk) 00:26, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Nonsense. It goes with the same standard of other material, if it's covered in reliable sources we can use it in context. Clay Aiken's claymates has shown us that the fans can also be notable. Banjeboi 00:30, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Image

The Archuleta image that keeps popping up and being deleted is the same caliber as the David Cook image (if I'm rembering correctly). They both have a blue background with clouds. Yet Archuleta's image keeps being deleted, why is Cook's image sticking around? --Mjrmtg (talk) 01:20, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I can't speak to it's being freely licensed but I'd be willing to bet that's the issue. The one of Cook on commons is freely licensed to the world while no free image of Archuleta has yet to be given. If you see him take a photo and consider freely licensing it for others to use! Banjeboi 01:51, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Honduran American?

Just because his mother is from Honduras, that means we label him as an Honduran American? I say that unless some third party source identifies him as such, or he clearly states somewhere he is an "Honduran American", then his inclusion in this category should be removed. Gwynand (talk) 19:09, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, if there is a category "people with Honduran ancestry" I could be swayed to include that instead. Benjiboi 21:13, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Issue resolved. He is Honduran American. A third party source identify him as Honduran American. [1] Casarch (talk) 00:52, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

That link doesn't lead anywhere. Gwynand | Talk•Contribs 11:55, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, he's Honduran-American, but that should not be the first thing said about him. He doesn't sing ethnic music. He could as just as easily be said to be a "LDS" singer or a right handed singer. Since it seems some adjective is needed, changed it to a pop singer, which describes the music. Maybe someone else has a better description of what he sings.

Hess88 (talk) 09:26, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

He doesn't sing ethnic music??? Is this a joke??? Do you know what Honduran-American mean?? It just means he is half-Honduran. It is not an adjetive. That link does lead somewhere since you Gwynand wanted a third party source that identify him as Honduran-American or a source where he states somewhere he is Honduran-American. Well, I give you both. Here is the third party source that identify him as an Honduran American [2] and here is a source were he clearly states he is half-Honduran [3] Casarch (talk) 18:27, 2 May 2008 (UTC) ! It's not the first thing to say about him. His claim to fame is singing pop music, not being a Honduran American. I just took the reference to his ethnic origins out of the first sentence.Hess88 (talk) 03:56, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Let's take a step back here. I am not suggesting that David is not half Honduran, or Basque. Those parts of info in the article are fine. I am saying, Wikipedia does not choose to further call Archuleta a "Honduran American" or "Basque American" if he is never specifically identified by those terms in any independant source. Again, the link you gave goes to TV.com but with a 404 error. The other source doesn't call him an Honduran American. The applying of these labels in the US is somewhat arbitrary. Technically, I am a German American under the defintion of that term, but I don't identify as such and neither do others identify me in such a way. If I were famous, it would not be up to the discretion of Wikipedians to give me this label in my article. Wikipedia simply repeats what is already given in reliable sources. Gwynand | Talk•Contribs 18:35, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

He is specifically identified as a Honduran-American in the first link I provided. Here is the link were David is specifically identified by those term. "David James Archuleta is a Honduran American with dark brown hair and hazel eyes who was born on December 28, 1990 in Miami, Florida, USA. Critics and fans alike call him a singing prodigy due to his early development and talent in singing. He has a growing fan base due to his numerous appearances on television talent shows like American Idol and Star Search . David sings Pop, R&B and Soul... " http://www.tv.com/david-archuleta/person/325960/summary.html and in this other link David himself identifies himself as being Half-Honduran. http://www.buddytv.com/articles/american-idol/profile/david-archuleta.aspx Casarch (talk) 18:57, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I can read that now, although as a whole other issue, that is not the greatest source. I'll let others come and comment on this issue. There are many other people with such ancestry, say like America Ferrara, but on Wikipedia we simply do not further a label that they don't use for themselves nor is really used in the public eye. Of course, Ferrara and Archuleta having Honduran ancestry are known facts, but people simply aren't going around calling them Honduran Americans, they don't say "I am Honduran American" (or at least sources don't show that) and hence, Wikipedia doesn't make that assumption. Gwynand | Talk•Contribs 19:02, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I definitely don't think this belongs in the lead. Just because some source somewhere called him a "Honduran-American", doesn't mean it's significant enough for the lead. If he sang Honduran music, or regularly identified himself Honduran-American, that would be one thing. Otherwise, this is a minor personal detail that should be mentioned (and already is) in the bio section of the article. Cogswobbletalk 19:59, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

It could be in the lead if it were seen as pretty important to his career and identity, which it isn't. He talks about himself every week and his heritage has not been given much coverage at all. He's as much Basque-American as Honduran-American so bring that material up in the section about his family and provide some good sources so those interested can read more if they choose. 71.139.56.59 (talk) 00:07, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I removed the sentence about his ethnicity because it was poorly sourced. The first two sources, Internet Movie DataBase and TV.com, can have trivia added by anyone. The third source, BuddyTV, also can have trivia added by anyone, but at least has a quote supposedly from David. Unfortunately if you enter that quote in a Google search without the quotation marks the only hit is the BuddyTV page. The fourth source is just a repeat of the third source. None of these sources have the fact-checking required to be a reliable source on Wikipedia. Aspects (talk) 16:29, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Table input

Personally I feel the table doesn't need to be sortable, is there really a benefit to it? And I feel it would look better if the columns were center aligned as they were prior, so if that were addressed I would care a bit less about the sortable feature Any thoughts? Banjiboi 19:57, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Nevermind, I've apparently fixed it as I found a clue on the wikitable talk page as to how to center the columns. Banjiboi 20:10, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Who cares what order David performed in? Unless it is shown to make some big difference that seems like something for a fansite. 71.139.50.253 (talk) 22:17, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I completely updated the table and removed the order number (whether David performed his song 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc.) - what I deem fancruft. This was reverted, and I re-added it with explanation. This was again reverted, mistakenly claiming I provided no explanation, which I did. I explained, American Idol doesn't own BLP articles and there is no need for them to be consistent once the competition is done, fancruft is unencyclopedic. I believe this to be true, no one is seriously suggesting that all this year's articles match each other? No one expects Fantasia's and Kelly Clarkson's to match nor should we expect all from this year's competition to be identical. These are living people and their articles conform to BLP rules, they shouldn't match each other actually. this point was made prior with noting religion, fans and sexuality; if it's notable then fine but just because one AI singer has something on their article doesn't mean the others must or must not. we are always improving articles and getting rid of fancruft doesn't seem like a bad thing. I think this should be re-added (a copy of it in the article can be seen here). In addition to removing extra material that doesn't seem to be helpful I was adding in three footnotes which I think had been previously agreed upon as well as wikilinks and the table was sortable which displays chronologically on the first load but allows readers to sort every column which would also seem to be helpful. Sortable table also don't require extra color formatting so even though the table was expanded it's volume decreased. Banjeboi 23:33, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Nicely done. I've said before, just because it's done poorly in related articles doesn't mean we have to carry the mistake over to the ones we edit ;) --MartinezMD (talk) 07:21, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, thank you, I obviously agree and hope that others do as well so we can update the table with consensus and avoid reverting. Just maybe the other AI articles will follow our lead. This article seems to get the most attention so it would be nice if other articles also improved as a result. Banjeboi 08:11, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I did the first revert because you changed the table with an edit summary of "Cleanup" and I did the second revert because you gave an explanation of "rv vandalism and table revert, AI doesn't own BLP articles and there is no need for them to be consistent once the compition is done, fancruft is unencyclopedic", which does not really explain the edit. Had you first posted here and then provided that edit summary it would have actually explained why you made the edit.

First off, I do not understand how you can claim the order they performed in is "fancruft" but somehow the mentors are necessary information to have in the table. Also if the order is also "fancruft", then the Auditions/Hollywood/Top 50 are also "fancruft" since most people considered an American Idol "performance" only when they get to vote for them.

Secondly, how does the current table violate BLP, but your updated version does not? Also as a side not if we went with your updated version, the reference for John Farham would be better off as a hatnote next to the name and a footnote below the table since that is not actually a reference. Aspects (talk) 21:51, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, well I can see why you reverted at least. To stay constructive here, there seems little evidence that the order they performed is that notable but even AI issues regular press releases about the mentors of which it's noted they were fewer this year. If it wasn't for those mentors the theme would quite likely be different thus song choices would be different. I included the audition songs as those were the first instances of national exposure where these artists started building their persona and reputation for this competition. The lone exception is "Crazy" which wasn't broadcast for licensing issues and we've got a reference for that. And "references" and "notes" are used interchangably, this was an earlier solution that had been worked out and I see no problem including it to help readers understand the inclusion of the song. If the article ever goes to Featured status I'm sure they can find a more elegant solution if this doesn't seem satisfactory. I also didn't mean to suggest that either violated BLP, but the BLP governs what content can be in a BLP and AI articles have little reason to match each other as much as conform to policies already in place. Every article grows at its own pace, decreeing that a set of BLPs has to match each other is a terrible idea. If there is identical information the a template like the one already in place makes sense. Otherwise each article, just like each artist represented, will go on their own path - hopefully improving. Banjeboi 23:25, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Also, it may make sense to delete the results column as we know the results. Banjeboi 01:28, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Performances and results

PLEASE NOTE: this is the proposed table, please keep discussion in the above section

Week	Theme	Song(s)	Original artist
Auditions	n/a	"Waiting on the World to Change"	John Mayer
Hollywood	n/a	"Crazy"	Gnarls Barkley
Top 50	n/a	"Heaven"	Bryan Adams
Top 24	1960s	"Shop Around"	The Miracles
Top 20	1970s	"Imagine"	John Lennon
Top 16	1980s	"Another Day in Paradise"	Phil Collins
Top 12	Lennon/McCartney	"We Can Work It Out"	The Beatles
Top 11	The Beatles	"The Long and Winding Road"	The Beatles
Top 10	Songs from birth year of contestants (1990)	"You're the Voice"	John Farnham
Top 9	Songs of Dolly Parton (mentor: Dolly Parton)	"Smoky Mountain Memories"	Dolly Parton
Top 8	Inspirational Songs	"Angels"	Robbie Williams
Top 7	Songs of Mariah Carey (mentor: Mariah Carey)	"When You Believe"	Mariah Carey & Whitney Houston
Top 6	Songs of Andrew Lloyd Webber (mentor: Andrew Lloyd Webber)	"Think of Me"	The Phantom of the Opera
Top 5	Songs of Neil Diamond (mentor: Neil Diamond)	"Sweet Caroline" "America"	Neil Diamond
Top 4	Music of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame	"Stand by Me" "Love Me Tender"	Ben E. King Elvis Presley
Top 3	Judge's Choice (Paula Abdul) Contestant's Choice Producers' Choice	"And So It Goes" "With You" "Longer"	Billy Joel Chris Brown Dan Fogelberg
Finale	Clive Davis's Choice New Song Contestant's Choice	"Don't Let the Sun Go Down on Me" "In This Moment" Imagine"	Elton John Written by Ryan Gillmor John Lennon

Farnham vs. Pescetto/Foster.

Resolved

 – footnote added. Banjeboi 08:34, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Apparently, there's been some debate over which artist should be credited. Generally, the original artist is the one credited, but this is a unique situation--so I added a footnote next to Farnham's name on the chart.

Although Foster and Pescetto remade the song in 1990, ORIGINALLY the Australian Farnham's track (released in '85/'86 overseas) was attempted a re-release by BMG records. It failed to chart, but the theme that week was not "Top 40 songs from your birth year". It was simply songs from the year they were born. Ergo, Farnham's name rightfully belongs on the chart. But the footnote should take care of matters.--Cinemaniac86^Oy_gevalt. 21:52, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Honduran American

Identifying David Archuleta as "Honduran American" in opening sentence of article and Category!! reason=Dispute over whether to call him Honduran American or just American!! time= Gwynand 18:43, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

• RfC response: His father is not Honduran I would refrain from calling him that, since it is not the most accurate nomer. Simply hispanic or Hispanic American is best, and not in the lead section, since that is not a contributing factor to his notability.--Esprit15d • talk • contribs 14:59, 6 May 2008 (UTC)