Talk:Cowboy Carter

Title

Don't we know from sources that this is called either Renaissance Act II or Act II already, or are we expecting it to have a subtitle in the style of Act I: Renaissance? Sources are calling it Renaissance Act II fairly consistently, so it seems only right to have it here, at least in the meantime, instead of at the incorrectly formatted Untitled (2024 Beyoncé album), or where I initially moved it, Upcoming Beyoncé album. Ss112 04:10, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

The album is not called Renaissance Act II, despite what articles are saying. As far as we know its just called "Act II" I move to either move it to a page called Act II or back to Upcoming Beyonce album Trqalobaid (talk) 04:54, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

@Trqalobaid: despite what articles are saying We go by what news sources say on Wikipedia. These: [1] [2] [3] [4] all say Renaissance Act II with/without a colon. But I've started a move request to gauge interest in moving the article. Ss112 05:52, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 12 February 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. It's been over seven days and there hasn't been a single oppose vote, so even though I'm the one who requested the move (merely to gauge interest, as I'm the one who moved it from Untitled (2024 Beyoncé album) to Renaissance Act II in the first place), I'm moving the page as from the responses it seems uncontroversial. (closed by non-admin page mover) Ss112 16:08, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

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Renaissance Act II → Act II (Beyoncé album) – Starting this based on various editors' edits to the article and the fact that sources appear to be split between using Renaissance Act II (with/without a colon), or Act II. Beyoncé of course used just Act II in the trailer. I'm not fussed either way, but I thought having the full title including Act II was a much better choice than the incorrectly formatted "Untitled (2024 Beyoncé album)". Ss112 06:02, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree because there is no conformation that the album will be called Renaissance and may have a completely different name. All we know is that it is the second act in the trilogy, not that it shares its name with its predecessor. Pandaboy3 (talk) 10:29, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Support. This is a more appropriate tentative name. Theknine2 (talk) 11:24, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

• Redirect to Beyonce per WP:HAMMER. There's speculation and its too soon to know what the album is actually called. The first album was dubbed Act I but this wasn't a subtitle or appended to the album title at all. I don't think its clear that the album is called Act II. Its act 2 of the overall project but what that's called I think we should wait. >> Lil-unique1 (talk) — 12:51, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Support. There is literally zero mentions from official sources naming the album Renaissance Act II. So far, all we got is act ii. UltimateDisco (talk) 13:54, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Support. Beyoncé's official sources label it Act II so best name to use at the moment.Flabshoe1 (talk) 16:14, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Support I support the rename as the title has yet to be announced. On Beyoncé's official website, the project is referred to as "Act II" with a released date of March 29, 2024 and that is all. The release only confirms the trilogy or releases, not the name of each subsequent release. Nk3play2 ^{my buzz} 22:44, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Support (with revision). Renaissance (2022) has nothing to do with this and should be removed from the title. Her preceding album, and the first act of the trilogy project, was not titled “Renaissance: act i”, it was “act i: Renaissance”. This will be “act ii: (insert album name here)”. She just hasn’t announced it. By including Renaissance in the title, it’s confusing readers that this is the second act of Renaissance, when Renaissance was the first act of a trilogy. I think the most appropriate name for the time being, as a placeholder, is “act ii (Beyoncé album)”. I would prefer to see it styled in all lowercase letters, because that’s how Queen Bey does it. Forevermorenow (talk) 00:52, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Support'. Beyoncé official press just name the album as "Act II", the official title is yet to be revealed. Additionally, on Renaissance's CD booklet, the album is titled "Act I: Renaissance",[5] not "Renaissace: Act I", meaning that the first act is titled Renaissance, while the second and third acts will have different titles. TayoncéSupremacy (talk) 16:02, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Support. There is no indication that Act II will share a name with the first instalment of the trilogy project. The album currently remains untitled and the tentative title that is being used by Beyoncé and Columbia is Act II, not Renaissance Act II. Everm4e (talk) 11:48, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

It is known that the title of the album will not mention Renaissance, and that Renaissance was the first album in the trilogy. Media has reported that it’ll be Renaissance act ii, but this is wrong. Nathan Sfendji (talk) 12:48, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Support. The official name for this project is "Act II" in the meantime; it remains untitled. Saying it is Renaissance Act II is speculation and a wrong one at that; Renaissance has been explicitly referred to as the first act, with it being referred to as "Act I: Renaissance", not the other way around. So until the title comes out from official sources, that is, Beyonce, it should just be "Act II" as a placeholder.CourierCarlos (talk) 02:55, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

• To add to this: even though reliable news sources are reporting it as "Renaissance Act II", let's not forget that reliable new sources are not immune to reporting speculation. Since official sources have referred to it as "Act II", and have indicated that "Renaissance" is the name of the first act, it is best to stick to what the official sources say rather than the commonly reported speculation. So it's best to rename the article "Act II (Beyonce album)" and use news sources merely referring to it as such

CourierCarlos (talk) 03:36, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Adding to my former reply: there are two conflicting reports on the album title from news sources: one half of news sources report the official title at the moment, Act II, while the other half report an unofficial speculative title that they made up. It is obviously best to go with the ones that go with the official source, rather than the ones with a basis of speculation. CourierCarlos (talk) 07:34, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Potentially support. Would it not be worth waiting to see what the front cover artwork of the album will be? It can be decided from that whether it should be Renaissance Act II or simply Act II. That would make most sense to me. RyanPLB (talk) 12:55, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

It should be Act 2 (Album Title TBA) Not Renaissance. That as the name of Act 1 2603:6010:5C20:4D73:302D:2ED1:88AD:2DA9 (talk) 15:01, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Order of singles

Currently 16 Carriages is listed first, followed by Texas Hold 'Em. On Beyoncé's website, however, the tracks are listed in the opposite order and I believe it should be switched. Flabshoe1 (talk) 23:22, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Support. This would also reflect Texas Hold 'Em's radio single status as it has been pointed out. Everm4e (talk) 11:39, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Support The order is written as "Texas Hold 'Em" and "16 Carriages" in all promotional articles from her label and official accounts.[6][7][8][9] Bluesatellite (talk) 13:12, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

@Flabshoe1 Oppose – I believe 16 Carriages should be listed first to keep an alphabetic order, we list the single with a number first. Its status as a radio or non-radio single should not matter. It is common sense in writing to list the numbers first, then the alphabet. AskeeaeWiki (talk) 18:17, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Alphabeltical order isn't mandatory, where is the guideline/policy? Reliable sources listed "Texas Hold 'Em" before "16 Carriages", so the order already passes WP:V. Bluesatellite (talk) 04:27, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

@Bluesatellite Well, although I don't agree with it, the vote currently stands to keep it ordered this way, therefore I will not attempt to change it. AskeeaeWiki (talk) 05:59, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Impact section

The Impact section is literally a copy and paste from the one already written on the "Texas Hold 'Em" article. I haven't erased anything because it can be restructured, but currently it is literally just a word by word copy that only replaces "Texas Hold 'Em" and single with Cowboy Carter and album, respectively. Please don't do that @Bgkc4444 ― WeNeverGoOutOfStyle (talk) 16:14, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks to @Ronherry: for removing most of the "Impact" section. That was attributing way too much to a newly released album. How can an album that was just released have an "impact", which is for long-lasting effects on the music industry? Beyoncé might have made a bold career move for herself and helped to open up the country genre for Black artists (even if she is far from the first Black female artist to make or dabble in country music), but don't know if we've seen the impact of this yet. Ss112 02:30, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Honestly, I think there should be a debate about deleting the Impact section as a whole. The album debuted just two days ago. Much of the "impact" seen so far was from the "Texas Hold 'Em" single (where any impacts of that single is more relevant to that specific article). It's just way too soon to evaluate how much Cowboy Carter impacted country music as a medium. The only impact part I could see remaining is about how the album provided visibility to black country artists ( Reyna Roberts, Rissi Palmer, Tanner Adell, K. Michelle). Whether that be added to an existing section or remained on its own for the Impact section is up for debate. Kaiser Jaguar (talk) 08:11, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

In a weeks' time, a whopping SEVEN Black, credited country artists (Linda Martell, Reyna Roberts, Tanner Adell, Brittney Spencer, Willie Jones, Shaboozey, and Tiera Kennedy) will debut on the Billboard Hot 100 chart for the first time (some also as songwriters), reach their highest career chart peaks on the Hot Country Songs chart, and the resulting Hot Country Songs chart when the album debuts will see an unprecedented overall percentage of African-American songwriters and performers. If that doesn't "impact (relatively-segregated, exclusive) country music"... what does? I won't even get into the fact the sampled works of the legendary Sister Rosetta Tharpe will appear on the Billboard Hot 100 for the first time. Trainsskyscrapers (talk) 19:13, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

These are fair assessments to make, and I argue keeping sections mentioning the impact of this album towards other black country artists and consensus-reached discussions about this album over a long period of time are valid. But a good number of edits made to the Impact section recently are pretty subjective in nature, and for an album that debuted less than a week ago, there’s some nuance to be made about judging the overall impacts. Keep the section but maintain the scope of it considering the short time the album has been out so far. Kaiser Jaguar (talk) 19:38, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

At the end of the day it isn't our job to assess whether commentary on the album's impact in reliable sources is valid or not. If reliable sources report extensively on the album's impact (which they have), it is not just appropriate but imperative for this article to include the information in order to be encyclopedic. Bgkc4444 (talk) 18:03, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

@Bgkc4444: You're yet to respond here as well. Please don't put back the contentious material in the article before addressing all this and achieving a consensus. ℛonherry☘ 17:45, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

I find the term impact very WP:PUFFERY. I think its more response and discourse. Perhaps Critical reception should be renamed critics reviews, and then "impact" changed to Reception and discourse. Academically this would be more accurate. >> Lil-unique1 (talk) — 11:46, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I think the album has already made an impact by itself ^{and not by copying the Texas Hold 'Em one thank god!} There are already plenty of sources covering its mark on contemporary country music -either by country and non-country Legacy acts, such as Dolly Parton and Paul McCartney-, fashion (Google searches, Levi's), politics (Michelle Obama, KH VP, King Family) and the increase of listeners to black country artists. Yes, the album was released less than two weeks ago, but it is undeniable that it has made an incredible impact already. — WeNeverGoOutOfStyle

Houston rodeo citations

Where are the citations for attending and playing the Houston rodeo. Citation 6 doesn't mention this. 86.17.33.70 (talk) 06:47, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Stevie Wonder

The only reference to Stevie Wonder comes from Parkwood Entertainment’s PR wire, but he’s not listed in any track listings or promotional materials, and there’s been no releases/statements/updates from Stevie Wonder’s PR. Is there any additional sourcing here? I can’t seem to find any feature from him – apologies if I’m missing something obvious! Bytelucas (talk) 13:06, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Stevie Wonder performed the harmonica accompaniment on "Jolene", as confirmed in Beyoncé's iHeartRadio Innovator Award acceptance speech last night. 2604:3D09:A980:1952:BAE2:D02A:4F59:4240 (talk) 18:48, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

To add to article

Basic information to add to this article (in order to help make it more properly encyclopedic, as well as because anyone visiting this article might expect to find it here): why the album is called "Cowboy Carter," and who "Cowboy Carter" is. The title is probably based on the fact that Beyoncé's real last name is Carter. 98.123.38.211 (talk) 15:41, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Fancruft, puffery, unreliable sources, unsupported claims and lack of paraphrasing

@Bgkc4444: A majority of your version of the article which you're heedlessly trying to add with no compromise is mostly fancruft, cited to dubious sources (for instance, I've been repeatedly asking you what's the "TheGrio" URL doing here), not abiding WP:MOS, WP:LEAD and WP: EXPLICITGENRE, subjective claims in Wikipedia's voice and paragraphs of superfluous details not important to Wikipedia. Please address these issues and cease your disruptive activity immediately. This article would not pass WP:GA and I don't think you're trying for that either, so please let others improve the article. Remember WP:OWN. ℛonherry☘ 17:39, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

It appears you are talking about this material added by Bgkc4444. I don't see the problem with thegrio.com which is an award-winning news website.[10] The writer, David A. Love, is a career journalist and scholar. The idea that the album is challenging country music boundaries is widely discussed. The removal of this text isn't indicated. Binksternet (talk) 18:57, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with TheGrio. I asked Bgkc4444 multiple times to explain their reliability, but they never did. Thank you for the explanation. I now believe it's not a bad source. I now noticed there's also a Wikipedia article for TheGrio, which I think is an indicator of reliability to an extent. ℛonherry☘ 07:26, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you @Binksternet for the explanation. @Ronherry, no much how much I tell you that the text is cited to reliable sources, it seems like you will always just remove anything I add (unless a third party explains its validity to you). "No compromise" - which is why I keep saying let's discuss it on the talk page and not just make large blanket deletions of every piece of text I add. If you think text needs editing, flag that or do it yourself, and expect feedback if you do. If you would civilly message me suggesting a piece of text needs editing, I would welcome that and we could work together to improve the article. But instead you are not assuming good faith and are ironically claiming WP:OWN while reverting every one of my edits to this article and telling me that I shouldn't work on the article and leave it to you instead. I'm sorry, but your over four years' worth of bullying, intimidation and false accusations [11] won't deter me from editing on Wikipedia. Bgkc4444 (talk) 18:01, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Addressing TheGrio, no, you never gave any explanation for that citation. ℛonherry☘ 09:27, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Please could you address the rest? I thought you also wanted a talk page discussion? "You never gave any explanation" - no, I said that I used reliable sources. Removing text because in your own mind you don't know that a source is reliable and then just writing "What is "TheGrio"?" in the edit summary [12] isn't exactly the best demonstration of wanting to improve the article and clarify whether a source is reliable. Bgkc4444 (talk) 09:44, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

R&B as an infobox Genre

I am removing R&B from the infobox from pitchfork. The quote from the article says "jumping-off point to explore vintage Nashville sounds, classic rock, contemporary rap, and R&B" - yet rap and rock weren't listed which demonstrates selectivism and WP:SYNTHESIS. "Jumping off point" makes it clear there are moments which explore rock, rap and R&B but not that the entire album is of those genres. WP:EXPLICITGENRE applies. >> Lil-unique1 (talk) — 10:17, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Quite agree. Binksternet (talk) 13:49, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't see how that's synthesis, but support removal in absence of strong sourcing Zanahary (talk) 17:27, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Agree with its removal - most publications I've seen seem to describe it as a country album that blends other genres, one of which is R&B. Bgkc4444 (talk) 17:50, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

@Lil-unique1 and Bgkc4444: Speaking of WP:EXPLICITGENRE, now we have editors trying to say the album is "Irish jig" and "opera" as a whole [13]. Ss112 10:22, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

@Lil-unique1 and Bgkc4444: Just an addendum to this, it's pretty clear (at least to me) that Kepin' it FUNKY is a MariaJaydHicky sockpuppet. I guess it should've been expected to see them here sooner or later. I've reported them to admins. Ss112 12:18, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

I've checked WP:AIV and Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/MariaJaydHicky, looks like the user has not been reported yet, as of 13:23 UTC. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 13:23, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

@Lil-unique1, Bgkc4444, and Iggy the Swan: Can editors of this page please be extra vigilant in looking out for sockpuppets of MariaJaydHicky who are intent on restoring R&B to the infobox with any source they can find, as long as the page remains on pending-changes protection? I've reported this latest sock of MJH but I'm sure they'll be back regardless. Ss112 12:16, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I shall until stronger protection to the article is in place. The operator of these sock accounts clearly does not know the rules about evading blocks to edit. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 12:47, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Update - latest sock has just been blocked. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 12:50, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Stylizations

The presence of stars (★) in two song titles is a stylization. We don't print stars in the titles of Japanese works that commonly contain them on Wikipedia per MOS:JA, so we should denote them as stylizations or leave them out entirely here. They're not pronounced and are decorative. It's clear at least that "Sweet Honey Buckiin'" is meant to be read as one title with no pauses. Ss112 03:17, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

@Ss112: Thanks for this point. I just had a look at MOS:JA and it seems to say that non-language characters shouldn't be used in the article title, but it doesn't mention not using them in title works mentioned in the article body, and I had a quick look and couldn't find any other guidelines suggesting its removal. For the example of "Sweet Honey Buckiin'", it is a combination of three songs, like "Pure/Honey" from Renaissance which has / in between, so perhaps if stars are indeed inappropriate then a slash may be preferable? Also "Smoke Hour Willie Nelson" without punctuation reads about strangely to me. Let me know your thoughts. Bgkc4444 (talk) 08:16, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

@Bgkc4444: I definitely prefer slashes to the stars as slashes are more typically used to denote separate parts of songs. My point about linking MOS:JA is that if it's not allowed in article titles and we don't mimic said stylizations, that logic about it being a stylized element should also apply to the article text. Ss112 14:17, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

It was myself that added the starts, but totally accept MOS:JA - I wasn't aware of it. I don't contest and would actually support / as the denoter between different elements/compositions within a single song title. >> Lil-unique1 (talk) — 11:28, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Are slashes commonly used for these titles in sources? MOS:TM says: Avoid using special characters that are not pronounced, are included purely for decoration, or simply substitute for English words or letters (e.g., ♥ for "love", ! for i) or for normal punctuation, unless a significant majority of reliable sources that are independent of the subject consistently include the special character in the subject's name. We're supposed to make articles readable, not invent titles. Chase (talk | contributions) 17:48, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

I originally removed all punctuation in the titles and merely said I would prefer slashes over the stars. A quick Google search shows me sources do not consistently use the stars. In fact, for "Sweet Honey Buckiin'", some appear to drop any sort of punctuation completely: [14], [15], [16], [17], [18]. A few use periods, like MadameNoire. As for "Smoke Hour Willie Nelson", there are less sources overall but these don't print any punctuation in the title: [19], [20], [21]. So I think at the very least it's safe to say sources are not consistent in using stars. Ss112 00:12, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

i would remove the slashes as well, as you show, very few if any sources use slashes. in the case of pure/honey the slash was how the song was stylised on the album, so made more sense there. Griffindaly (talk) 07:35, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

There needs to be something, otherwise, imho it's not clear at all that Sweet ★ Honey ★ Buckiin' is three songs and as @Bgkc4444 stated, "Smoke Hour Willie Nelson" looks strange without punctuation. AG202 (talk) 06:07, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Then the fact that "Sweet Honey Buckiin'" is three movements in one song can be noted in the prose and track listing. "Smoke Hour Willie Nelson" looks less odd if you consider "Smoke Hour" to be an adjective describing Nelson himself, as in "Willie Nelson is in Smoke Hour mode". It makes sense as he's introducing "Smoke Hour" on a fictional radio station. That's how I saw it and "Sweet Honey Buckiin'", which I think still makes some sense read as one title as well. That being said, we should follow what sources use. Ss112 03:46, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Charts

Beyoncé officially becomes the first black artist ever to take a country album to Number 1 on the UK’s Official Albums Chart. And in a landmark moment for the genre, Beyoncé - an artist who has had an indelible impact on popular music - is also the first artist ever to achieve a UK Official Chart double with a country album and country single. 196.47.128.137 (talk) 21:06, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

"Caro Mio Ben"

Hi,

I have removed the name of the "artist" who is said to have performed Tommaso Giordani's "Caro Mio Ben." "Caro Mio," as it is affectionately called, is a sung classical music standard. Many people have performed it since its composition, and many have recorded it, Enrico Caruso being a notable one. -¤÷(`[¤*M*¤]´)÷¤- 02:22, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Beyoncé's production credits

On the credits list found on music.beyonce.com, she is credited as the main producer on all the tracks. Someone please correct this. Kamo0606 (talk) 17:46, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done @Kamo0606 - if you look very closely, the note tagged with Beyonce in the credits says Primary and Vocal producer. This covers what you asked for already. >> Lil-unique1 (talk) — 13:04, 17 April 2024 (UTC)