Talk:Country definitives

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Sources

Arising out of a discussion regarding sources, as all of the information in the article can be found in the sources in the reference list, I deleted the "Sources" section. I still intend to fill out the references from the SG Concise Stamp Catalogue as soon as I get a more recent copy than 2002.AndyB (talk) 20:31, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Merge

There is little point in having Postage stamps and postal history of Northern Ireland when that article is only about some of the country definitives of Northern Ireland and this article already clearly explains those stamps. Essentially it duplicates much of what is already here and the real only difference between the stamps for the different countries is the symbol representing those different countries. The country symbols, used on the Wilding and Machin stamps, can easily be expanded on for those issues in this article without the need for a separate the Northern Ireland article. The pictorial issues are only discussed in this article and there would be little point in having individual articles for these issues as that would mean deleting this article. ww2censor (talk) 03:54, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Merge of Postage stamps and postal history of Northern Ireland into this article : I think separate article is nice to keep even if it needs some work. Northern Ireland is particulary interesting and perhaps controversial. Those of us wanting a united Ireland could argue that North Irleand's stamps might,could or should be covered by Stamps of Ireland. Also this article as it stands would not seem so welcoming as the "merger" might really just amount to a deletion - as so many mergers are. Perhaps if one wishes to insist on the merger it might be best to improve this article first with extra info on the other countries (Scotland and Wales and then the NI stuff would seem to have some place. (Msrasnw (talk) 08:53, 8 April 2011 (UTC))[reply]

PS: Is the name of this article a bit too terse - should UK or GB and NI be mentioned in it? (Msrasnw (talk) 08:58, 8 April 2011 (UTC))[reply]

Support Merge: The other article contains nothing which would not be appropriate, either in content or in level of detail, in this article, which I substantially rewrote some time ago but still have work to do (values, designs, colours etc, once I can lay my hands on a current SG Concise UK Stamp Catalogue). The NI-specific article is an avoidable stub, and with the best will in the world, is unlikely ever to have the information available to cease to be a stub.

In context, the stamps of NI are those issued by the United Kingdom intended for use in NI, as opposed to England, Scotland or Wales. If there is ever a United Ireland, the country definitives for NI will cease to be valid together with all other UK stamps. A note in the article Postage stamps of Ireland redirecting to this one would be more than adequate, even in the event of unification - indeed, I think it would be very helpful to include a "see also" link along the lines of "This article concerns stamps used in the Irish Free State and the republic of Ireland since 1922. For details of stamps issued for Northern Ireland, see Country Definitives"

I agree that this article should be renamed. I'll look up how to deal with disputed mergers later on. AndyB (talk) 11:43, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

To reiterate I think my opposition to the merger might be more connected with the loss of information that often results from such things. (And personal annoyance at having ones own work thrown away!) If there were to be substantial sections in this article on the different nations and their stamps then the stuff in the NI article would clearly have a place. I think those wishing to do the merger might therefor consider adding to this article first and then it would be OK. It is clearly wrong of me to ask others to do work. Perhaps I will look at adding stuff on Scottish and Welsh Defins first and see how that goes. I am rambling - sorry. Best wishes (Msrasnw (talk) 13:55, 17 June 2011 (UTC))[reply]

Msrasnw, I really don't see your problem with this. Firstly, you know well that you don't WP:OWN the article so your personal annoyance should not be a factor though I sympatise if your work was to be destroyed. We are trying to merge the information not delete it so that argument fails. With some input from each of us there is no reason why the other countries could not be expanded sufficiently to create some balance, so that each one gets a decent amount of prose. I fail to see why the addition of other country information is necessary first when Postage stamps and postal history of Northern Ireland essentially duplicates what is already in Country Definitives rendering it a redundant article. Personally I would have turned it into a redirect but decided it was polite to discuss it first; let's move forward rather than standing still. ww2censor (talk) 16:23, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. The scope for expansion on this article is very specific - a proper record of colours, designs, and denominations. I had a look at a damaged copy of the Concise Catalogue today, and apart from the "Celebrating..." stamps and Miniature Sheets, there is nothing that would belong in Msrasnw's article that would not belong in this one; in addition, it is somewhat inaccurate because Northern Ireland has no postal authority of its own and has never issued a single postage stamp. I think that ww2censor can probably advise whether the "Celebrating..." series were generally issued to Post Offices across the UK rather than only locally to the countries and PostShops (successors to Philatelic Counters) AndyB (talk) 17:30, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This British Postal Museum page and its links would appear to be very useful in expanding the article to encompass the various regions and talk about the symbols used to distinguish the different regions. Other than the pictorial issue, the basic design is the same. ww2censor (talk) 20:27, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ok since you seem quite keen and there is only me not wanting this I have started the process and will soon work on adding more on the other countries. (Msrasnw (talk) 22:47, 17 June 2011 (UTC))[reply]

You are doing a nice job. I have not even had time to look at my literature to see if I have anything useful. ww2censor (talk) 01:02, 19 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

New name

Regional stamps for the various countries and islands of the British isles - is a description here http://www.postalheritage.org.uk/page/regional this is an ugly name but I think the current name is a little bit to parochial. Does anyone have any alternative suggestions? (Msrasnw (talk) 22:12, 18 June 2011 (UTC))[reply]

The original article title was Regional postage stamps of Great Britain but that was merged with this one mainly because Royal Mail started calling these stamps Country definitives and they still do, so changing the name, as suggested, would strictly speaking be a step backwards. ww2censor (talk) 01:02, 19 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Do you think the current title is OK? Perhaps Country definitives (regional postage stamps of the UK) would be better?(Msrasnw (talk) 09:05, 19 June 2011 (UTC))[reply]

Perhaps Country Definitives (UK) as a redirect. I honestly think keep it simple. AndyB (talk) 11:34, 21 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

IoM

Should the IoM stamps article Postage stamps and postal history of the Isle of Man come in here too. I don't think so (but then I didn't think the NI should either). There are some useful things there but without sources. (Msrasnw (talk) 22:17, 18 June 2011 (UTC))[reply]

The IoM do issue their own stamps, separately from the common regional ones, so should have their own article though there may be some useful stuff there. However, the article is unfortunately completely unreferenced, so needs significant improvement. ww2censor (talk) 01:02, 19 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree - as with Guernsey and Jersey, Isle of Man is only relevant in this article as regards stamps issued by the GPO before they became postally independent AndyB (talk) 11:33, 21 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]