Talk:College esports in the United States

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 January 2020 and 15 May 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jarends1013. Peer reviewers: Austinh291.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 19:18, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 9 January 2020 and 18 April 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Praise1234.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 19:18, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

content

i added some info about the niu computer gaming league i started, which is historically interesting due to time and size and i was considering trying to do a regular article on it. this edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=College_esports&oldid=872602497

the college esports entry as a whole had plenty of other information, although almost all was pulled out of the article to the point where the entry is now barely more than a stub; just a list of colleges. how is this more interesting or informational vs. the prior state? these edits do not feel like an improvement, it feels like the article was reduced to a skeleton. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sickmint79 (talk • contribs) 16:04, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

@Sickmint79: I removed the content because it was not sourced to reliable, independent sources. --Izno (talk) 17:36, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

@Izno: I won't claim to have much expertise editing wikipedia, nonetheless I don't understand this - TESPA for example has its own article, it certainly exists; if you wanted to challenge part of the claim (size or org, scholarships) that might seem valid (or found in their own article) - but why remove it entirely from the College esports article? How is this not relevant and interesting information to someone viewing this article? The article has been gutted to the point of simply being a list of schools. How about the sexism entry? It cited a BBC article on women in esports. What about all the listings for schools, programs, and games actually played there? These have many citations from the schools themselves. I consider my own addition relevant in that it is history in this space and we had a larger program than many of these that exist - I also linked an internet archive with the member size, I can upload (photos of) news articles as well. This article was interesting when I found it, and I think I added value to it. The present state of the article however hardly seems worth hosting. Actually, it is literally just an out of date version of this: http://www.espn.com/esports/story/_/id/21152905/college-esports-list-varsity-esports-programs-north-america --Sickmint79 (talk) 20:31, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

@Sickmint79:The racism/sexism thing was not directly relevant to this topic though it might plausibly be covered in esports.

I'm not doubting these organizations exist or that these programs exist or.... I'm doubting that they have been covered with suitable discussion in independent reliable sources to need the level of coverage this article provided them in the prior version... which can be somewhat evidenced by the fact that there are only two sources in the current article (and apparently one of which is out of date). I'm happy! to entertain additions, but we need to start with sources independent of specific schools.

As for "this program was started at this school on this date", I find those simply inappropriate. We aren't a guide book to selecting a college with a program.

Do you want to help with getting the list updated/sourced better? We can start with that, since you seem to have a source. I am happy to show the ropes. --Izno (talk) 02:18, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

@Izno:sexism/racism - fair enough, this was not college specific, although why not move it to esports if still a relevant contribution?

looking at Tespa - i simply don't understand how it's presence does not warrant an entry in this article. it has its own, with a bunch of external links, and is a major current player in this community and topic. wouldn't everyone visiting a page on college esports be interested and benefit in the knowledge that this organization is out there? isn't the they have been covered with suitable discussion in independent reliable sources of most anything up for debate and drawn rather arbitrarily? you don't think this entry has enough, i think it has plenty; what is the actual test here? i would think it be something along the lines of whether it provided interesting, on topic, relevant, unbiased, new information to the reader. maybe the original TESPA entry on this page could use some wordsmithing, but how does it benefit the reader to remove it entirely?

for the We aren't a guide book and the individual program/scholarship sections, i can see your point, particularly as this spreads to more schools and this just become large and unwieldy.

re: the source, i just linked the already existing espn one - which the page is out of synch with. for example, benedictine university mesa is on the ESPN link, but not the wiki page.

i came here to see if i could add a historical entry for the NIUCGL, as i saw colleges are now pouring millions into esports programs in 2018. and i was a part of an organization that had well over 200 people and a presence in the chicagoland area at a school in 2000, which had more people involved than many of these current entire programs. it seemed like it would be historically interesting and relevant, and i considered making an article on its own. i provided a link to an archive.org membership page, and have some pictures of school newspaper articles (only 1 iirc exists on the school's own website today) of the organization, now defunct. i didn't make an article because i feared its own as well as the entry i made here would simply be edited off of wikipedia though. but what better place would there be to put a large historic college esports presence than on wikipedia? in a college esports area? --Sickmint79 (talk) 16:54, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

@Sickmint79: move it I have a weight concern regarding the racism/sexism stuff with the exact material, even for esports. A full paragraph for each based on two sources isn't reasonable (maybe a few more would make a paragraph each good). You might feel free to try merging it over there in some sense--I wouldn't stop you and I probably wouldn't revert you, but you might need a discussion on talk:esports about it since the material can be controversial and I would guess that article is watched by a few people.

I actually do think Tespa deserves to be mentioned here. Do you have a source you would like to use here? We do need to summarize the material. Generally, I'm interested in removing the garbage sourcing and starting from scratch when the sourcing isn't directly in the article. Do you want to take a shot at some content here with appropriate references?

i just linked the already existing espn one Do you need help adding it?

As I said, I am happy to help. (Hint: I'm trying to turn you into an editor. ;) --Izno (talk) 20:12, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

@Izno:what little wiki editing i did long ago i felt was frustrating as i thought i had sourced things well enough at the time, and it seems too easy to fall into editors competing with other editors on pages. i have heard that the company i work for, employing over 500 people and being a leader in its space has had past attempts to make a wiki page about itself fail despite it certainly seeming relevant enough to warrant an entry. i only came in to this article to add the blip about some history in this space as to my knowledge i created one of the first college gaming groups and a very large one at that. of which there are just some scattered remains of evidence existing around now, some on the internet, plenty on my hard drive, and 30 years from now it will either be lost information or it might be info that survived on wikipedia. --Sickmint79 (talk) 4:54, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

@Sickmint79: I understand the frustration. However, it sounds like you need to review how important the principles of verifiability, no original research, and what Wikipedia is not. (As for your company, those rules are, for better or worse, more strict because Wikipedia is a spam and paid promotionalism target.) As always, let me know if you want to help clean this article to the standards that Wikipedia expects for all content. --Izno (talk) 18:05, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

@Izno: i did not see my company's prior attempts at page creations but i am under the impression they were already trying to be careful and were frustrated with the experience. i would expect any violations to result in conservative edits though, while what appears to have happened is no entry at all. maybe when i am less lazy i will try making a page for them myself and see what happens. i am most interested in putting a historic footnote on the contributions of my org to the college gaming space, but i am unsure if it would pass what most editors would think is relevant and allow to stand. Sickmint79 (talk) 04:23, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

List of colleges and universities with esports teams is mostly unsourced

The list of colleges and universities with esports teams in this article is mostly unsourced. Sources need to be added or the material should be deleted. ElKevbo (talk) 00:54, 20 April 2021 (UTC)