Talk:Battle of the Indus

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It would be nice if the location of the battle was a little more specific. The Indus is, what, 5000km long? Elijahmeeks 00:27, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

It's said to be nearby khairabad,the exact place is used to be called" gorathrap" from where he crossed the indus but I don't know bymyself.

Lalzamin (talk) 23:19, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

It fought to east-south of kafaroderai near Hisartang Adda

Lalg90 (talk) 00:45, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Bruxton (talk) 18:10, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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• ... that when Jalal al-Din realised he would be defeated at the Battle of the Indus, he rode his horse off a 30-foot (10 m) cliff into the Indus River? Source: Buniyatov 2015, p. 128
  • ALT1: ... that although Jalal al-Din's family was put to death by Genghis Khan after the Battle of the Indus, his life was spared? Source: Boyle 1968, p. 320, Barthold 1968, p. 445
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/David Baron (Messianic leader)

Improved to Good Article status by AirshipJungleman29 (talk). Self-nominated at 15:09, 4 August 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Battle of the Indus; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• Hi AirshipJungleman29 (talk), review follows: article passed as GA on 3 August; article is well written; sources look reliable and are cited inline throughout; hooks are sourced offline, I am happy to AGF that the sources support the facts base don the contributor's track record; ALT0 is stated in the article, ALT1 also, in that al-Din escaped the battle on horseback but Genghis Khan ordered his archers not to shoot at him. Preference for ALT0.

I had one query about the quote "Fortunate should be the father of such a son", when the Khan brought al-Din's sons to witness his escape. It feels as this should be the other way around ("Fortunate should be the sons of such a father"), is this as the source has it? A QPQ has been carried out, so this is good to go. I'll approve on the basis that my query has nothing to do with the hooks - Dumelow (talk) 09:49, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Dumelow, the quote is correct. Genghis was praising Jalal al-Din's bravery by saying that his father should be proud of him; it was also slightly a veiled insult at his father and Genghis' enemy, who was not in fact fortunate and who had died a few months earlier. Also, it was Genghis' sons who were called to witness, not Jalal al-Din's. Thanks for the review. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:05, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Ah, understood. Perhaps changing "his" to "the Khan's" sons would make this clearer? All by-the-by with regards the DYK anyway, cheers - Dumelow (talk) 12:17, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

What happened to the harem?

The lead says: 'however, his harem and nearly all his army were slaughtered.'

The body says:"The Shah’s camp, harem and treasures were captured, and all male members of his family, including his seven year old and infant sons, were killed.'

This seems to be a contradiction. 2A02:1810:BC3A:D800:2C98:387B:A549:4647 (talk) 23:30, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out IP. Fixed. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:04, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

This article was DYK ineligible

Just noting here that I just realised that this article was ineligible to appear on DYK a couple of days ago, as it had previously appeared in 2004; I (the nominator), the reviewer, and the promoter somehow all missed this! ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:16, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

A "letter"

The following sentence was recently added to the article: "However, during the siege of Ahlat, Jalal al-Din recieved a letter in which he was informed that Genghis khan himself admires Jalal al-Din's might and Genghis khan has decided to be related to Jalal al-Din, to respect the demarcation of the two countries and not to attack Jalal al-Din as long as Jalal al-Din does not attack him"

This purports to be cited to the following text: "During a siege of Khilat, Jalal ad-Din received a letter from his sister Khan-Sultan who, while in Mongolian captivity, had become married to Chingiz-khan’s son Jochi ... She wrote to Jalal ad-Din as follows: “The Khaqan has been informed of your might and grandeur of your possessions. Therefore he has decided to become related with you and agree about demarcation of your possessions with the Jayhun river: you’ll possess all beyond this line. Hence, if you are in a position to oppose the Mongols, take vengeance on them, ight against them: if you succeed, do whatever you like; if you fail, seek a chance to make your peace with them while they are still eager to do it!”. As an-Nasawi laments, however, Jalal ad-Din failed to reply to his sister’s letter."

There are ... quite a few problems here:

1. The siege of Khilat, as noted on p. 144, occurred in 1230. Genghis Khan died in 1227. Jochi died in 1225. If anyone knows how a dead man can admire someone else, let me know.
2. Perhaps the word "khagan" actually referred to Ögedei? That would be quite idiotic, because Ögedei had dispatched Chormaqan two years previously with 30,000 troops in order to kill Jalal al-Din. They arrived later that y
3. The supposed "letter", from a sister never mentioned elsewhere, was only reported by a Jalal al-Din's private secretary, who, as noted on p.152, painted a hagiography of him and tried to portray him as positively as possible.
4. And finally, nothing of this has any relation to the actual Battle of the Indus: you know, the subject of the article.

I'll remove the sentence. If anyone disagrees, please also post at WP:3O. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:31, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

While your points make sense in its entirety, you neglect 1 thing: The siege of Hilat has taken place TWICE: In 1226 AND 1229. That solves your 1st and 2nd points. Then, it is completely natural that only a secretary of Jalal al-Din knowing his private correspondence. As for your 4th point, that also makes sense, which can mean we can omit it. If anything, this could go into Jalal al-Din's article's legacy section (if it meets due criteria and notability). --176.88.165.232 (talk) 19:44, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Actually, Jalal al-Din besieged Hilat 3 times --176.88.165.232 (talk) 20:16, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

That is a good point re. the dates: if it concerned the 1226 siege, then it is much more probable, and the information might be able to be added to the Jalal al-Din article.

Still, as you note, there are criteria to iron out. Firstly, Genghis sent one army against Jalal al-Din in 1222 under Dorbei Doqshin, and another in 1227 under Chin Temur. It is possible that in the meantime he changed his mind twice about the suitability of Jalal al-Din as a neighbour, but it seems somewhat unlikely.

Secondly, considering only a secretary of Jalal al-Din would know his private correspondence, he is also at liberty to make up whatever he wants—who was going to correct him?—and the recent Cambridge History notes "his panegyric tone" (p. 1010).

Thirdly, as Broadbridge notes, Sultan-Khatun and the other imperial Khwarazmian women were repeatedly humiliated and nearly reduced to prisoners—this would be unlikely if Genghis Khan wanted to "become related and agree on possessions" with their brother/son Jalal al-Din.

For that reason, I would like to see another source which attests that the letter is plausible before we add it to the article. Sound good? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:12, 1 November 2024 (UTC)