Talk:Athens/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Photos

To El Greco: I really cant understand your persistence in removing photos that add value to the article by actually showing things the article describes for instance, Athens tram or Athens suburban rail. I dont add photos of monkeys or space shuttles. Other articles regarding other countries capitals have much much more photos ranging to 15-30 photos! Athens has in my opinion very few photos and could actually be enriched. Please stop removing them. The reason you say is simply not valid!77.83.202.65 (talk) 15:14, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not an image repository. That's what Wikicommons is for. So just because an image exist doesn't mean that it needs to be added. _{El Greco}^(talk) 15:30, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

You keep saying Wikipedia is not an image repository but you fail to reply to what I say. I said that Articles are enriched with the appropriate images. If what you say was valid you should go and erase photos from London, New York, Madrid, Instabul or other articles where many many photos are present on those articles. Also, suburbs are part of Athens and described in the article, thus the photo stays. Thanks! 77.83.202.65 (talk) 16:11, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

There already is a photo of a suburb, no need for more than one, since this article is about Athens, not Maroussi. _{El Greco}^(talk) 23:06, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Proper section for museums

I am trying to standardize the presentation of museums in big city articles. Here is a general picture of the present situation: User:Hoverfish/Sandbox#Europe. In most big cities museums are mentioned under "Culture", "Main sights" or "Tourism" sections. In Athens they are mentioned under "Urban landscape", which I find confusing, thought the building themselves may well be notable as part of the landscape. I suggest subsection "Parks and Museums" becomes simply "Parks", while the notability of the architecture of some museum buildings is simply mentioned under subsection "Architecture", and the "Museums" as such get a subsection of their own under "Culture and contemporary life", linking as 'main article' to List of museums in Greece#Athens. Hoverfish Talk 05:59, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Twin cities

Just a very small point, but on the Mexico City page it lists Athens, Greece, as a twin/sister town. I see no such mention under Athens' twin cities - is that possible? 84.0.203.168 (talk) 19:38, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Either its an omission or they aren't sister cities. Unfortunately, I don't know how we can find out whether they are or not.--Ptolion (talk) 19:46, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

photos(in general)

I agree with the friend who says that the photos generally are usuful and in my opinion they make also the article more attractive to the readers.

I saw the article of "italy" ,of many italian cities,of "istanbul" and other major world cities and i think they overflow from pics---such as they were a travel guide---.

The greek articles i think are poor on this matter and no way they are "images repository".For example,cause i read the previous conversation ,its absolutely paralogism even to discuss if to put an image for Maroussi municipality in the article,such as it was another city. Athens is consisting by many many municipalities.

So,greeks be friendly with the pics!Greco22 (talk) 21:30, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Etimology

The name Athena may have come from Albanian goddess “Ethona” Dictionary of ancient deities By Patricia Turner, Charles Russell Coulter 2001

http://books.google.com/books?id=jEcpkWjYOZQC&pg=PA80&lpg=PA80&dq=athens+albanian+goddess&source=bl&ots=OtAelSKKA-&sig=NTChX8FYPi01pAJ2LTnw5SBpw7Q&hl=en&ei=W7ywS9baK9D24gaf6rm4Dw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CA8Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=athens%20albanian%20goddess&f=false —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.107.222.230 (talk) 14:56, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Neither Turner nor Coulter are academics on this field. Turner is a research writer and Coulter was an engineer/novelist. The sources the authors used for this are Albanian Constantine Anastasi Chekrezi[2] and Reverend Edwin E. Jacques,[3] based upon the Albanian word "E Thena" (say/speech - sic!). Neither Chekrezi nor Jacques make any claim about any 'Albanian Goddess' “Ethona” that is found in the book by Turner nor Coulter, they base their theory on the Albanian word "e thena" in which "e" is an article and "thena" is a participle of thom 'I say'. These 'sources' are rejected by modern linguistic scholars. The authors also claim the name Athena is a transliteration of the Vedic Ahana, that is based upon 19th century sources like George William Cox's "The mythology of the Aryan nations"[4] and Sir James Knowles[5]. I'm reverting the etymology section to its previous form until independent sources within the academic fields required can collaborate this "Albanian" connection to the etymology 'Athena'. (Angar432 (talk) 19:33, 2 April 2010 (UTC))

Graffitti

The young citizens of Athens should learn to respect more their city because a lot of graffitti gives a poor impression of the city.--88.18.148.222 (talk) 01:28, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

we can be the first ones. The UHI block has strong value added for the article

hence HUI block is restored. If you want to align Athens climate article to major cities, you can always write a UHI block for each one of the others. The Athens article is interesting also for mentioning and descriving this ascertained fact that is earning increasing importance in urban climate worldwide.

Btw a block about the 2007 heatwaves would be interesting.

93.145.243.189 (talk) 13:54, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

No.I dont think so

As I said,the motive to introduce it was bringing the polemics from the weather forum,thus again deleted.Shall be deleted each and everytime on these grounds and since there is no mediation for content dispute resolution,there is no point for it to remain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Weatherextremes (talk • contribs) 16:19, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

CLIMATE: URBAN HEAT ISLAND: OK, no problem. I will re-enter it again each time.

You are trying to censor scientific evidence in order to prevent readers from learning about 1) the existence of the strong urban heat island of Athens 2) the clear proves of its significant impact in biasing the temperature measures of the National Observatory of Athens (and so you mislead readers on important topics to health, economy, environment, and science), I'll ask a reprimand about your improper censorship. The point you have to bear in mind is that you are not entitled to remove documented scientific materials regarding relevant and pertinent topics in order to model what readers learn about Athens and what they are unadmitted to learn. Athens has strong UHI threatening environment and humans, and this UHI impacts the NOA time series threatening climatological research conclusions about climate change. For some reasons you seem to be very motived to squelch these facts. The behavior feeded by this attitude is totally against the encyclopaedic mission of Wikipedia and must be repressed. 93.145.243.189 (talk) 17:51, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

This debate is rapidly getting out of hand. The section, while sourced, is too long for this article and should be summarized down to 2-3 sentences per WP:SS. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a scientific review. A separate article can be created with all the information about the debate on the heat island, and a link to that article provided in the trimmed-down urban heat island section. Athenean (talk) 18:59, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

The escalation in contents has been necessary in order to mantain the information in front of misleading adds and/or manipulations of sentences. When one disputes contemporay satellite measurements by the use of a 25 years ago article (the respectable Katsoulis and Theoharatos 1985 article), only adding strong and stronger and stronger evidence given by more modern and methodologically stronger articles might work. And that I did. I agree that the proper section would be just more refined that "Athens has strong UHI threatening environment and humans, and this UHI impacts the NOA time series threatening climatological research conclusions about climate change and non-specialistic interpretation of climatological data" but this is exactly what that guy seems to be motived to censor. Amending (talk) 20:14, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

It's looking to me like it's time to start edit-protecting and throwing blocks around here. The participants would be well advised to conduct a rational discussion here on how much material should be included, and how it should be worded. Talk of censorship and edit summaries like "no problem, I will re-enter it again each time" is, to say the least, worrisome. Hash it out here on the talk page. Franamax (talk) 20:46, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

And to start with, I've semi-protected the page for three days so that registered editors can (hopefully) sort out the problems here, without anonymous interference. Franamax (talk) 20:55, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

And on further brief review, two more points: Athenean has provided some pretty good advice just above, which basically mirrors my first impression on reading the material; and as this appears to partially revolve around the issue of climate change, all editors should be aware that that topic has been contentious in the past, and currently administrators are given broad discretion to act. That's not a formal warning, just a heads up. Franamax (talk) 21:30, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Hi,I have re-deleted the UHI.Unless and Untill I can have an agreed content on the article I will not add it again.Mainly the behavior of bringing polemics from meteorological forums is what I am trying to avoid and due to the sensitive nature of the debate I will keep it as is until an agreed version is reached.However I am inclined not to include it at all —Preceding unsigned comment added by Weatherextremes (talk • contribs) 22:16, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I have no objection to the deletion of the section. This article is not the place for protracted, highly technical scientific debates about meteorology that 99% of our readers will be unable to follow. I could live with 1-2 sentences about the whole UHI thing, but anything more is not going to work. Athenean (talk) 22:25, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Hi Athenean,I am with you and I also agree, thus the deletion.A couple of sentences of easily understood and neutral material highliting both sides on this subject is also fine by me.However knowing that it is difficult to reach an agreement on the content is enough of a motive to delete it all together,unless of course there is a consecus on what the content will be.

Hi all, here is the few sencences version I am going to add just below the climatological table without creating new sections. The sentences belonging to the same field of evidence that has been dropped up to now are there, so I feel that block will not survive too long.

The city of Athens is affected by a strong urban heat island effect, inflating its temperatures compared to the surrounding rural areas. Such heat island caused by human activity has detrimental effects on energy usage, cooling expenditure, and health. The urban heat island of Athens has been found responsible also for alterations of the climatological time-series of Athens due to its impact on the temperatures and the temperatures trends recorded by some meteorological stations of the city including the National Observatory of Athens-Thiseio and the HNMS Nea Philadelphia weather station.

Amending (talk) 09:48, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Please do not refer to other editors as vandals per our policy of WP:CIVIL. It is unacceptable. I would ask you to rephrase and remove the verb "vandalize" above. Also please consult WP:NPA our No personal attacks policy which clearly states that you must comment on content not on contributors. Presently I am not informed about the validity of your claims above, so I will not comment on the suggested passage. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 15:25, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

ok done —Preceding unsigned comment added by Amending (talk • contribs) 15:34, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Thank you very much. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 15:55, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

New two-lines version of Athens UHI (and it is in practice the first one, the one which had been fought by the Katsoulist & Theoharatos 1985 article with the graphs drawn by hand, despite the existing overwhelming latter scientific evidence, originating the contents escalation): The city of Athens is affected by a strong urban heat island effect which is caused by human activity, inflating its temperatures compared to the surrounding rural areas, that has detrimental effects on energy usage, expenditure for cooling, and health. The urban heat island of the city has been found responsible also for alterations upwards of the climatological temperature time-series of Athens due to its impact on the temperatures and the temperatures trends recorded by some meteorological stations of the city including the National Observatory of Athens-Thiseio.

How long is it going to last? Amending (talk) 17:54, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Not very long Amending.The reason is simple the version is not agreed.So BEFORE posting it we need to reach an agreement.Firstly the term strong UHI needs to go since it is a generic assumption coming from one study while at the same time you have not included THE OTHER SIDE with Livada and Theoharatos who mention that the National Garden does not have UHI and that Thiseio has exactly the same means from 1860 era.So BEFORE posting it you need to agree the content with me.How clear is that?? Here is my version

The city of Athens is affected by the urban heat island effect in some areas which is caused by human activity,[26][27] inflating its temperatures compared to the surrounding rural areas,[28][29][30][31] that has detrimental effects on energy usage, expenditure for cooling,[32][33] and health.[34] The urban heat island of the city has been found partially responsible also for alterations of the climatological temperature time-series of specific Athens meteorological stations due to its impact on the temperatures and the temperatures trends recorded by some meteorological stations. [35][36][37][38][39].On the other hand specific meteorological stations such as the National Garden station and Thiseio meteorological station are less affected or do not experience the urban heat island [40]..[41]

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Weatherextremes (talk • contribs) 21:52, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't want to take a position on the content here, but as a suggestion, as this is an overview article, the wording here should reflect that. I don't think the typical reader of this article is going to care about which weather station shows what or whether a climatological series has been affected. What is of interest for the purpose here is some rough estimate of the magnitude, perhaps based on a review article from a jounral or specialist publication; some indication of whether the UHI effect is greater or less in Athens than in comparable cities; and a discussion of the implications for public health as temperature extremes are exacerbated by the effect. The gory details can go in the new section of the Urban heat island article (and eventually maybe a stand-alone article) and linked from here as a "further reading" template. Franamax (talk) 22:59, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

The Thiseio station is an institution with a long story in Athens and for many it is the reference station for the city. In my opinion specifying about it is important. Quantifications may lead into expanding details and I do not feel to reccomend that. I have done it in order to contrast some diversive and attempt to minimize but it is difficult to explain readers that +3 in minimum temperatures (Katsoulis & Theoharatos 1985) and +1 in maximum temperatures (Philandras & Nastos 2002) do not mean +1,5°C for all the year; the topic is complex. However these are estimates: an inflation of 0.3/0.4°C in mean temperatures from 1970 to mid-1990's, and then the effect seems stable. Approximately +3°C in average in minimum temperatures (Katsoulis and Theoharatos 1985) and +2 in spring and summer but less in other parts of the year for Philandras & Nastos (2002). Athens NOA is one of the longest climatological series and attributing it a scalar when the UHI effect is intimately dynamic would oversimplify. Not easy to say in 3 words. For this reason I suggested to simply say that there is some bias upwards, what is well known and documented Amending (talk) 23:57, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Basically those are comparative studies that need to be done to specifically indicate weather Athens has a UHI or not greater or less than other cities.The ovegeneralization for the climate of the Athens basin (which is one of the most complex in the world) should be avoided.So what I am suggesting is that the exceptions of specific areas that are less or not affected should remain since it gives a neutral position.Very difficult however to reach a conclusion comparativelly (ie Madrid,Rome,etc) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Weatherextremes (talk • contribs) 03:31, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Also I dont see the reason for an Athens case article to be inserted in the urban heat island.There is no other city over there and I dont see why Athens should be so special and i take it the UHI is stydied all over the world in much bigger cities like London,N.York etc.In any case 2-3 very generic lines should remain here and not academic review style analysis etc.

What happens in Urban heat island does not matter here. The paragraph there is (was) a good piece of information providing readers of a specialized topic (UHI) with an opportunity to learn about an exemplary case of UHI that has been extensively and intensively studied by a fragment that fully matches the rest of the article but was effectively too much detailed for a general article like Athens. I am sure that UHI readers would appreciate a lot a literature review paragraph written by you about the UHI of any city, for instance Sydney or Copenhagen or Domodossola. I am also sure that readers from New York or Skipton will not feel discriminated against for not having an article on their heat island on Wikipedia and will not hate Athens for this privilege but will learn about facts, methods, lines of research and existing publications and journals from it. Each one of us uses is time and effert for free to put ideas, reasoning and reference together. Every good contribution is appreciated. Amending (talk) 04:09, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

You forgot signing, Weatherextremes

By the way, of course I do not reply to that attempt to shift the discussion from the article and contents. If personal adversion or mysterious conspiracies are perceived, personal talk page should be used to handle them. Notice that any violation of rules about personal attacks and politeness would be repressed in the maximum possible extent. Amending (talk) 12:39, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Replies about Weatherextreme points against the two-sentences fragment about Athens UHI

Getting back to Weatherextreme points regarding the two sentences about UHI I add here but I am responding to Weatherextremes. "So BEFORE posting it you need to agree the content with me.How clear is that??". Please notice that I can require you to agree with me in every topic as well, so consider rationally what and how you ask agreement. Unreasonable positions would motive me to shift away from the tit for tat attitude towards a less cooperative interaction strategy. Please adopt also a polite use of capital letters.

After this premise, I'll refer to this edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Athens&action=historysubmit&diff=397754557&oldid=397710623.

That "strong" is supported by peer-review academic reference. Precisely it is quoted from peer-reviw academic reference before you dropped it. UHI just varies in intensity over the city surface but scientists summarize it by the term "strong".

What you say about Katsoulis & Theoharatos against strong heat island effect is wrong. First, they do not control for general synoptic conditions and worldwide or regional anomalies. It is obvious that temperature varies not only as an effect of UHI but also for natural environment temperature change in time. Katsoulis and Theoharatos (1985) never say "The means in early 1980's are the same of 1860's and then there is not UHI". They say and repeat that UHI is detected instead. Moreover they analyze the temperature series by statistical tools available at the time of their job. Second, notice that Repapis at al. (2007) list the Katsoulis & Theoharatos paper in reference, and they cite them; but Repapis at al. (2007) detect and report UHI, and they report UHI in mean temperatures. Repapis et al. (2007) feel their findings contrasting with Katsoulis & Theoharatos stronger than those of their predecessors (or they feel they detect what Katsoulis & Theoharatos could not detect due to methodological limitations in mid-1980's), and so based on their own knowledge and judgement they override their respected predecessors. Latter research findigs override earlier research findings; Katsoulis and Theoharatos (1985) are not a dogma. Science goes on and discovers new things. More recent work has gone beyond Katsoulis and Theoharatos (1985). Almost all research articles about Athens UHI mention Katsoulis and Theoharatos (1985) and list it in references, and this does not prevent them from having different results (especially in maximum temperatures). Repapis et al. (2007) have several articles in reference and nevertheless they say that Athens is characterized by a strong UHI.

Livada et al. (2002) against strong heat island effect etc. The Authors found UHI in most places they tested, not only in some. All the stations they used show a overall mean 1°C (or more) higher than the station at the National Garden, which is not rural but in the city centre. All the stations they use show overall mean >=1°C higher than a urban park in the centre of a 4 million inhabitants city. An obvious limitation of that study is that they have not reference rural stations. As the operative definition of UHI is the difference of temperature between rural and urban areas, no UHI absence can be detected if not by finding a unsignificant or zero difference between urban and rural areas; and Livada et al did not use rural data at all: only urban and suburban. Moreover you contend "strong" UHI based on Livada et al. Interestingly, the article I quote (Giannakopoulos et al 2010) lists Livada et al (2002) in references, and it refers Livada et al (2002) a few lines below saying that previous studies fond in Athens a "pronounced" urban heat island. Here again the authors feel to override earlier research. You should criticize them rather the acceptance of their specialized opinion. Scientific peer review published material did so. Giannakopoulos et al 2010 clearly know Livada et al 2002 and simply override them. Interestingly, another few lines below the "strong heat island effect" one, a 2006 paper co-autored by Katsoulis (the one of Katsoulis and Theoharatos who that is supposed not to find UHI because the means are the same in 1860's and 1980's) is referred for the concept that past studies revealed that Athens has a pronounced UHI. Giannakopoulos et al 2010 know Livada et al (2001) and Katsoulis and Theoharatos, and they decide to say "strong" urban heat island. "Strong" urban heat island is supported by contemporary scientific researchers.

Other comments on your version. The "inflating" term was reasonable, when "altering" seems to suggest unprecise or unknown directions of the effect (maybe underestimation). But referenced peer-review scientific findings updated to may 2010 say that the measured temperatures inside Athens UHI are overall higher than those outside, and we have such publications documenting overal inflation of minimum (Katsoulis and Theoharatos 1985, Katsoulis 1987) maximum and mean temperatures (Philandras et al., Nastos, others) and satellite measures showing the city warmer (not cooler or alterated) than the countryside. So I keep "inflating" or propose "increasing" or equivalents. The direction of UHI effect on temperature measures in Athens reported by researchers is one: up. So inflating is OK and altering is not OK. Other words indicating a rise of temperature may be OK as well, and the term which is compatible with interpretations like "erratic changes", "unclear changes", "temperature reduction" are all not OK.

I agree on the "partially responsible for ...". Other factors (such as measurement methodologies, instruments, locations, etc) introduce alterations in time series as well, not only UHI. "Partially" is OK. I agree also for "specific" stations in principle, but the specification is unuseful as few words ahead it is specified "due to its impact on the temperatures and the temperatures trends recorded by some meteorological stations". The sentence in my opinion was already OK, the proposed change is like applying socks to the legs of the chairs.

So I suggest to find the words for saying that UHI magnitude varies in space and time inside Athens in order to acknolewlege this established scientific finding, but more details would inflate the text too much as things are complex as a recent article shows (Zoulia, Santamouris and Dimoudi 2009, "Monitoring the effect of urban green areas on the heat island in Athens", Envir Monit Asses, 156, 275-292). Another interesting feature of Zoulia, Santamouris and Dimoudi (2009) paper is that they also apply formal statistical test to Livad et Al. (2002) data that statistically supports the conclusion that the National Garden is actually cooler than other urban areas.

The last block is not acceptable. No comparative research indicating that Thiseio is less affected or not affected by UHI is mentioned and no comparative tems are provided. Less than what? Less than the Garden? Less than suburbs? It is POV. Moreover matching Thiseio with the National Garden is potentially misleading because readers may be leat to believe that results applying for the National Garden apply for Thiseio, and this is undocumented and unreferenced. Another interesting content of Zoulia, Santamouris and Dimoudi (2009) paper is that they tested the temperature differences between the National Garden and the immediate surrounding areas by formal statistical test and found no significant effect of the Garden in cooling these immediate surrounding areas (page 290, paragraph "Concluding remarks"). This means that the argoument that Thiseio is next to the National Garden and hence has less or maybe it has not UHI is invalid, as these authors argue that proximity with the Garden has not systematic effect of protection agains urban heat island. Systematic academic evidences and references already exist about the UHI impact on the Thiseio temperatures time series, and the allusion that Thiseio can have temperature patterns resembling the National Garden is undocumented. I ask to change the sentence with a fixed separation between National Garden (that is less affected) and Thiseio (that is affected and we do not know how much compared to the city - but only +3 in minimums, +2/0 in maximum, 0.4 in means compared to rural areas). The UHI effect over Thiseio is known, documented and quantified. The cooler Garden temperatures are known and documented. And these are independent findings. The absence of UHI effects on Thiseio because of the proximity of the National Garden should not be suggested, implied or alluded.

Well. All the points and edits have their reply. In general, all substantive points get replied that estblished scientific finding exist against them, published by academic authors in peer-review journal and/or academic conference presentations, and that no clues of contemporary research supporting the mentioned criticism is invoked up to now. I'll suggest a version acknowledging some minor changes but respecting and reflecting the overwhelming academic reference and scientific findings we have at hand. The points are that 1) Athens has a strong UHI effect impacting its environment and its population with effects over economy, quality of life, and health, but in some parks the UHI effect is less intense. 2) such UHI impacts also the temperature time series of some weather stations of Athens (inflating them) such as the National Observatory of Athens at Thiseio. I'll work around a better wording and small details. Very good for providing readers with an insight about this facet of Athens climate earning increasing importance in urban climatology. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Amending (talk • contribs) 13:46, 20 November 2010 (UTC) Amending (talk) 13:56, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Not exactly

Firstly endless academic revew will not do the trick in Wikipedia,while it shows critical thinking you might want to take up the issue with the NOA administration.Dr Founda is very helpful and she can direct you towards further reasearch on the Thiseio UHI.The strong UHI in Athens comes from one study and cannot be adopted.I was clear that both Livada and Katsoulis show that the UHI of Athens is NOT uniform.Again Livada show that the Thiseio station is classed as suburban and follows the National Garden patterns.I dont know what you are on about but it is explicit that suburban stations follow a next to zero UHI effect according to Livada.Methodology and stats are there to see for everyone.This is explicit in the article.Thus this clear exception needs to remain so it will stress the non uniformity.You might want to email Livada on the issue however both sides should be there and adopted.Thus I must insist that the content remains as is.

Now about Katsoulis 1985 ,I mean we have been through this like FOR EVER in your Italian forum Borat.The quote is clear and they say however examination of the mean maximum and mean temperatures show that the urban heat island is almost eliminated. I mean come on now I have produced this quote like 10 times in your Italian forum and you keep on ignoring it.This reflects the other side within their own article.As I said endless academic review wont do the trick.If you are inclined to take up research on Thiseio and Athens UHI that is fine,non the less the crutial factor is the fact that Athens as the warmest city in Europe during the summer on average seems to me the argument that you really want to attack. In terms wording altering I guess could be changed however the Zerefos paper mentions and explicit artificial effect on Thiseio due to change of equipment from the mid 90's onwards and adopts the view that it can not be concluded that either the UHI or the GW effect can be considered the main reasons for this.

We could also adopt something along the lines areas protected by greenery even at the very centre of Athens seem to not be affected by the UHI and both the National Gardens and Thiseio are protected by greenery and both classed as suburban as Livada points out.

And finally, I mean NOTHING but NOTHING shows an increasing momentum on Athens uhi in climatology .This seems totally random assumption so that you will just shift the attention from Athens being Europe's warmest area during the summer on average by implying that Athens is like the world champion of uhi.I mean come on. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Weatherextremes (talk • contribs) 15:57, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

I've semi-protected the article for one week now to keep the IP input down again. The two protagonists wouls be well advised to start focussing on areas of agreement if they wish to continue editing at this site. Please work constructively instead of endlessly rehashing arguments brought from elsewhere. Franamax (talk) 08:46, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Responding Weatherextremes about UHI in Athens article

I find strange the rejection of so massive systematic academic evidences and invoking an unofficial verbal opinion instead. No, I am not asking Dr. Founda any opinion about. Overwhelming scientific evidences already exist. It is matter of acknowledging that massive scientific evidence sometimes are stronger than ones' POV and individually taking fixed positions against choral scientific findings is questionable in rationality.

The NOA weather station at Thiseio according to scientific findings is once again found affected by the strong UHI of Athens as it has been demonstrated by several scientists. Here is another study finding that: Livada I., Niachou K., and Santamouris M. (2005). The impact of wind on air temperature distribution in Athens and in Santorini. International Conference "Passive and Low Energy Cooling for the Built Environment", May 2005, Santorini, Greece. Authors study hourly air temperature and wind speed data for the period June 2004-September 2004 of the National Observatory of Athens, Hellinikon and Santorini.

Page 134 (here we have also a error in NOA altitude): "In spite of the fact that NOA is placed in an area with relative vegetation, on the top of a 417 meter high hill, its position near the centre of Athens makes it exposed to the heat island effect (Livada et al., 2002)."

Hence, being in the centre of Athens makes this station virtually exposed to the strong UHI of Athens, and they check if this actually happens, while being next to the National Garden is not mentioned as a potential protection from UHI. Two authors (Livada and Santamouris) are the same of the Livada et al. (2002) paper, and in this paper they do not believe what Weatherextremes believes, that being Thiseio next to the National Garden may protect it from the strong urban heat island of Athens. They say instead that being in the centre of Athens threatens the station with UHI effect. Weatherextremes respectable POV is not supported by the scientists that are invoked to support it.

Lets go on with the results of the study: page 136-137. "From the study of Dh(26) in three meteorological stations in Athens and Santorini, the heat island effect is evident in the centre of Athens [...] Finally, for NOA station near the centre of Athens, the heat island effect overrides the influence of wind speed during the 24-hour period and this is mostly obvserved for lower wind speeds [...]".

So for these Authors the NOA station in their summertime study is affected by the strong urban heat island of Athens with variable intensities depending on the wind speed. These authors do not support Weatherextremes' respectable POV that being next to the National Garden protects Thiseio from the strong urban heat island effect of Athens (they say instead, that being NOA near the city centre exposes it to UHI) and they say that NOA is affected by UHI, which is another (among serial) scientific result contrasting with Weatherextremes respectable POV.

Here is the full text of the article: http://www.inive.org/members_area/medias/pdf/Inive%5Cpalenc%5C2005%5CLivada.pdf

About the parks in Athens and the term "strong", here is another appreciable piece of information, given by Mat Santamouris, who is not a bad italian forum user trying to represent Athens as the world champion of UHI with the use of false references saying totally else, but a respected professor at the University of Athens and chief editor of the academic peer-review journal Advances in Building Energy instead:

Santamouris M. (2007). "Heat Island Research in Europe: The State of The Art". Advances in Building Energy Research, Vol 1, pp. 123-150. page 130: "Santamouris (2001) reports measurements of heat island in the Greather Athens area, Greece. Almost 30 surface temperature stations were used and measurements taken on an hourly basis for many years. It is reported that maximum heat island intensity in the central area is around 16°C, with a mean value for the larger central zone being 12°C. Also, absolute maximum temperatures in the central area are close to 15°C higher than in the suburban areas, while absolute minimum temperatures are up to 3°C higher in the centre. It was also found that heat island intensity in the central Athens park area is 6.1°C while the heat island intensity of nearby located stations is 10°C."

True, Santamouris words seem to depict a sort of UHI world champion, with 12°C mean UHI in the centre and 6°C UHI intensity even in the central Athens park. When Authors indicate the UHI of Athens as "strong" they perhaps refer to these findings of Santamouris. But in my opinion Santamouris did not want to claim a champion crown for Athens; he simply reports results of a massive scientific investigation that I do not reccommend to squelch. Moreover in other parts of the article he reports about Turkish cities. I did not compare systematically the figures provided in that part with attention but, I guess, maybe some Turkish city beats Athens in UHI mean or maximum intensity.

Just few lines below Santamouris mentions the Livada et al (2002) paper (he co-authored) specifying seasonal and territorial variations in UHI, and another few lines below s/he reports the results of Mihalakakou et al (2002) indicating that the strong UHI of Athens is not fixed but varies according to synoptic conditions and may also fall to zero with intense northern winds. That's interesting. Notice that Katsoulis and Theoharatos (1985) report a +3°C effect on minimum temperatures as a overall mean result. It would be interesting to re-compute their mean UHI excluding the days with strong northern winds.

Lets go on: pp. 140-141: "Santamouris (2001) also reveals the findings of research using multi-year temperature measurements taken in two urban parks in Athens. They show that both parks have almost 40% less cooling degree hours than in other surrounding urban stations. The parks also present the lowest recorded absolute minimum temperatures of all the stations. However, during daytime the absolute temperature inside the park was higher than at the suburban reference station."

So being in a park or next to a park is not always a 100% protection against UHI. Parks are cooler than surrounding urban areas but not always cooler than suburban areas and they can be warmer in daytime.

Here is the link for the article: http://books.google.it/books?hl=it&lr=&id=My5zKeqRe2MC&oi=fnd&pg=PA123&dq=Advances+in+Building+Energy+++Research&ots=ce-bmtYjyQ&sig=KVqLzcY34HHii1AWs8Ql-W5IJ9o#v=onepage&q&f=false (some pages will be missing). I strongly reccommend this extensive article summarizing the state of the art to readers who are interested in UHI research, it is very good and helps also unspecialized readers in understanding and framing the topic.

Final, mentions and/or allusions that the NOA station is actually or potentially unaffected by the strong urban heat island of Athens followed by references to scientific studies saying the contrary are too much misleading and may not be morally accepted. I invoke again a fixed separation between mentioning the National Garden and mentioning eventually the Thiseio weather station. The UHI effect on the Thiseio station is overdocumented and overreferenced and has been demonstrated by several scientists. The actual formulation allows for the interpretation that Thiseio is potentially not affected by UHI, a thing that is falsified by systematic scientific findings, showing that Thiseio is affected by UHI.

I propose the following formulation for the whole paragraph (I'll care the reference later, here in Talk we can't even see them).

The city of Athens is affected by the urban heat island effect, which is caused by human activity, altering upwards its temperatures compared to the surrounding rural areas, that has detrimental effects on energy usage, expenditure for cooling, and health. Such urban heat island effect is variable between hours of the day, between seasons and as a consequence of synoptic conditions, with conditions like summertime high pressure and calm wind favouring intense affection, while strong northern winds lead it to fall to zero. Such effect is also variable between parts of the city, with smaller effects in eastern parts and even no effect in some urban parks like the National Garden. The urban heat island of the city has been found partially responsible also for alterations of the climatological temperature time-series of some meteorological stations of the city like the National Observatory of Athens-THiseio due to its effect of inflating the temperatures recorded and altering upwards the temperature trends.

Let's examine it sentence by sentence. "The city of Athens is affected by the urban heat island effect". No "strong" for now. I am investigating in order to track the origin of that "strong" and eventually I'll enter it again if top journal authors like Santamouris still use it in the last years. I have another case of "Athens is characterized by a strong heat island effect" sentence in peer-review publication but I can't retrieve it now and I am not sure Santamouris or Livada are among Authors.

"which is caused by human activity, altering upwards its temperatures compared to the surrounding rural areas, that has detrimental effects on energy usage, expenditure for cooling, and health.". The alterations in the temperatures are explicitally said "upwards", no unconclusive views should be suggested by the wording. "Upwards" is overdocumented as an effect over mean temperatures in the world and in Athens. I'll find better references for the effects over health.

"Such urban heat island effect is variable between hours of the day, between seasons and as a consequence of synoptic conditions, with conditions like summertime high pressure and calm wind favouring intense affection, while strong northern winds lead it to fall to zero.". Here the non-homogeneity of the UHI along the year is acknowledged, the non-homogeneity of the UHI as an affect of synoptic conditions is acknowledged (no UHI with northern wind, strong UHI with summertime high pressue and calm or scarce winds).

"Such effect is also variable between parts of the city, with smaller effects in eastern parts and even no effect in some urban parks like the National Garden". Here non-homogeneity of the UHI in space is acknowledged (East and parks perform better, people is told they will feel better in the East and in the parks especially the National Garden)

The urban heat island of the city has been found partially responsible also for alterations of the climatological temperature time-series of some meteorological stations of the city like the National Observatory of Athens-THiseio due to its effect of inflating the temperatures recorded and altering upwards the temperature trends.. Here Thiseio and National Garden confusion is eliminated. The overwhelming evidence of UHI effects over the temperature record of Athens most important weather station at Thiseio is acknowledged and no underpants or distractors or fake moustaches are applied to such effect: it is temperature inflation as several scientist have documented. It is acknowledged that UHI is only one drive of such mean temperatures change as changing instruments and locations do have confounding effects as well.

Opinions? Amending (talk) 13:49, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Quick add. There is no official WMO records office recognizing this, but based on data reported by Santamouris, at the best of our knowledge the UHI World Champion in antropogenetic heat is Manhattan (New York City) and not Athens. Athens is not even in the top-12. See http://www.fire-italia.it/gestione_energia/gestione3-01.pdf page 7, table 2. Amending (talk) 15:42, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

UHI: A question for Weatherextremes

Is the heart of your argument that the wording should make clear that the NOA station at Thiseio is not exposed to a full-power heat island but just to a reduced one that is mitigated by vegetation?

If this is the core of your point, I agree 100% with this, of course: in fact Santamouris (2001) reports a mean 12°C UHI for the "UHI-est" parts of Athens and 6°C for the central Park. If we take the recent means of stations outside the centre of Athens of, say, 17-19°C like Elefsina, Helliniko or Tatoi, under the full-UHI hypothesis we should expect for NOA-Thiseio figures of yearly means like 29-31°C, resembling rural Bangkok, because of UHI, and this is obviously not the case. If we take a central-Athens-park-hypothesis according to Santamouris' findings based on several years of data (6°C), we should expect for NOA-Thiseio means close to 23-25°C, and this is again not the case, as last year Thiseio "scored" 18.9°C. I do not need academics writing it on a peer-review paper to quote, I am very well able to compute it by myself: since 19 is far smaller than 23-25 when the differences are Celsius degrees, then I suggest that Thiseio is not exposed to maximum UHI (10°C? 12°C?) but just to an attenuated one. Also the Scholars detecting the UHI effect based on urban-rural long time-series comparisons indicate figures of 0.3/0.4°C mean impact over the means for the 1970's-1990's period. I can also retrive explicit academic reference mentioning NOA-Thiseio for that, because if the one who says that is me or you it is original research and may not be reported; but if it is Livada and Santamouris, perhaps the concept is acceptable.

So the problem would be how to phrase this in compact terms and without misleading ambiguities... Amending (talk) 18:13, 21 November 2010 (UTC))

The point is that 2 academics show Thiseio non affected leaving aside endless academic reviews

So in that sense I partially agree on your passage apart from the fact that Thiseio should be down as the exception of Athens UHI.Again debating the Thiseio exact UHI is a task of academics to carry on so there is no real answer in your question.My version is the one already in the article.However I could go for something else instead of altering in the passage.Definitelly Thiseio being there as an example of Athens UHI,should not be there at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Weatherextremes (talk • contribs) 18:22, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Also I was thinking that a paragraph seems too long as we discussed earlier.The initial planning of 2-3 senteces seems very good. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Weatherextremes (talk • contribs) 20:56, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Urban Heat Island deletion

OK, I have looked at various articles for the biggest cities in the world in Wikipedia.New York,London,Moscow,Tokyo,etc.No Wikipedia article has a section for UHI.Since the motives for the article is mainly polemics from meteorological forums with a different user, I have decided to delete the UHI section.Various studies on UHI of different cities have been made and I dont see them have this subsection in their wiki article.I have also erased all the polemics in the discussion section around the warm climatology of Athens

See Borat

This is exactly the problem.I have notified Faranax in his personal talk page of the exact nature of the friction between you and me.I have expressed my opinion that the UHI of Athens is used as a vehicle to start a debate on Athens which stems from your Italian forum.I have detailed our personal history and have explained why Athens is no different to any big city in terms of UHI.I believe that this continuous effort to focus just on Athens UHI has to do only with the fact that it has been clearly shown by me in most European meteorological forums that Athens is by far the warmest city in Europe during the summer on average according to the WMO.While I do understand that this might dishearten you and that you have your objections I also believe that Wikipedia is not the place for a non stop debate.

While it is nice to see your UHI Athens article(which is mostly onsided and focusing on Athens being like the international champion of the UHI) it would be even nicer to see your exact dedication like Athens for the UHI of another city.What do you think?

UHI: but that version is misleading

Sorry, this is the last long entry, I will shorten next.

That version is misleading for the reasons I have illustrated in detail. Matching that way the National Garden and Thiseio is compatible with the concept that Thiseio is unaffected at all by UHI, a thing that is falsified by published research on academic journals and conference proceedings. No-UHI in Thiseio is your respectable POV but choirs of scientific authors say the contrary in scientific journals and conference proceedings. My next step will be investigating among Wikipedia administrator what I can do in order to amend that unfortunate sentence implying that Thiseio may be unaffected by UHI and reporting in reference articles and authors saying actually the contrary.

In fact, authors saying that Thiseio is affected by UHI are referred to for the implied concept that Thiseio may be unaffected by UHI, and this good faith imprecision is quite surprising and deserves to be corrected. Moreover further academic evidences that Thiseio is affected by UHI are disregarded and most surprisingly the disregarded evidences come from the same authors that are invoked to support the idea that Thiseio can be unaffected by UHI.

This is contesting the will of the Scientists by the use of laughable arguments that in the 1985 article with the graphs drawn by hand they forgot writing "Thiseio" and in 1996-1998 they classified a datalogger at the National Garden as suburban when further evidence based on the same data show that one step outside that garden the temperature immediately increase and the National Garden does not protect its surrounding areas. And notice that UHI is known to operate also in suburban areas (not only in urban), see Gartland L. (2008). "Heat Islands. Understanding and Mitigating Heat in Urban Areas, London, Earthscan, page 2: "Urban and suburban areas have long been observed to have heat island, a 'reverse oasis' where air and surface temperatures are hotter than their rural surroundings." http://books.google.it/books?id=wokqNDknbLIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=heat+islands+understanding+and+mitigating+heat+in+urban+areas&source=bl&ots=cgkjPqimTI&sig=iXr9-TjxRp9H55yg7nJ7JSrepPs&hl=it&ei=VjbpTJ_BN4HqOdn3tYgK&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false .

Authors saying that Thiseio is affected by UHI may not be used to suggest that Thiseio may be unaffected by UHI morally: I strongly oppose this good faith misuse of reference.

But have you read the load of references for the UHI impact on NOA Thiseio that the article has? Most are still there. Just click, download the papers and read. A paper that finds UHI effect over NOA-Thiseio means is quoted here just above, one of the sequence of papers saying that, and it is co-signed by some of the authors you invoke for lack of UHI effect in NOA-Thiseio means: Livada I., Niachou K., and Santamouris M. (2005). "The impact of wind on air temperature distribution in Athens and in Santorini". International Conference "Passive and Low Energy Cooling for the Built Environment", May 2005, Santorini, Greece. They say that they screened the behavior of the NOA-Thiseio station in summer and September 2004 and they found it affected by UHI.

Just a curiosity, you say that "Livada show that the Thiseio station is classed as suburban and follows the National Garden patterns.". Where did you get such idea? Do you refer to the paper Livada I., Santamouris M., Niachou K., Papanikolaou N., Mihalakakou G. (2002). "Determination of places in the great Athens area where the heat island effect is observed". Theoretical and Applied Climatology, 71, Numbers 3-4, 219-230? I agree that most probably station 1 is at Thiseio, but the authors never say that, and I have read the paper one hundred times. In fact, if they said that I had a further strong argument in favor of Thiseio affected by UHI: the station 1 despite of the higher altitude has a overall mean temperature which is 1.2°C higher than the National Garden and this is good evidence of urban heat island effect over Thiseio NOA station. 1.2°C is altitude equivalent of about 200 meters altitude difference... But the authors actually never say that the station 1 is at or is Thiseio, and so guessing that it is at Thiseio would be at the same time POV, original research, and an unproved guess. By the way, that station follows the pattern of Thiseio in the mean temperatures of the grouped months, not the pattern of the Garden.

Interestingly I have retrieved a 2010 paper co-authored by Livada and Santamouris confirming the principle that the the heat island of Athens is "strong": "Previous studies in Athens, Greece, based on data collected from 23 stations combined with measurements from mobile stations, have confirmed the existence of a strong heat island (SANTAMOURIS et al., 2001)." The reference is Giannopoulou, K., Santamouris M., Livada I., Georgakis C., Caouris Y. (2010). "The Impact of Canyon Geometry on Intra Urban and Urban - Suburban Night Temperature Differences Under Warm Weather Conditions". Journal of Pure and Applied Geophysics, 167, p.p. 1433-1449. Just another shower in the inundation of references. But I am not insisting for entering the "strong" term in the fragment about UHI. Really the stuff would get "persecutory" while it should be neutrally descriptive.

Well, now I am KO. I'll read better your reply tomorrow, in order to interpret it properly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Amending (talk • contribs) 22:55, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

UHI: I dump the proposal of "Athens is *characterized* by ...

Some researchers in UHI really wrote that the city of Athens is characterized by a strong urban heat island effect. But I got persuaded that they actually wanted to mean "affected": one of the features of Athens is a strong urban heat island". I could say I am characterized by blue eyes when I mean my eyes are blue, it is one of my traits. I would not be not the only one with blue eyes (that do not distinguish me from others) and Athens is not the only city with a urban heat island. Perhaps Athens is characterized by the Pathenon or several other things, but UHI is a feature it has in common with most cities.

I ask the opinion of Greek native tongue wikipedia editors. Is it possible, in you opinion, that one thinks in Greek the equivalent of "Athens is affected by UHI", and translates it into English writing "Athens is characterized by UHI"? I do not know contemporary Greek but in my language such transformation would be possible (and likely to occour). "Parabola is characterized by a non-linear shape". Yes, parabola is non-linear, but parabola is not the only non-linear function. It just displays a non-linear shape like many other functions. So non-linearity is a feature, not a unique characterization. What do you think about? Amending (talk) 16:33, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Reference Verification for Climate section

I am trying to verify the reference for the statement "According to the National Observatory of Athens the average daytime maximum temperature in Thision (period 2001–2009) for the month of July is 35.1 °C (95.2 °F)" entered in 17th April 2010 h18:32 within an edit by the IP user 86.31.30.147 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Athens&direction=next&oldid=356637556#Climate http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Athens&action=historysubmit&diff=356638686&oldid=356456992 )

The reference provided is http://cirrus.meteo.noa.gr/forecast/bolam/index.htm

|title=National Observatory of Athens.Monthly bulletins
|accessdate=17 April 2010}}

that is a general weather page of the NOA website. One must click the "monthly bulletins" link and reach this webpage http://cirrus.meteo.noa.gr/forecast/bolam/index.htm?bulletins.htm~Content where a long list of montly bulletins in PDF format are found.

This way of providing a reference is sub-optimal: the readers should be given the specific bulletin where the aforementioned figure is reported. For instance, here we find the January 2010 bulletin: http://cirrus.meteo.noa.gr/forecast/deltio_noa012010.pdf, here we find the February 2010 bulletin http://cirrus.meteo.noa.gr/forecast/deltio_noa022010.pdf etcetera.

I have read all the bulletins one by one, up to April 2010 (when the reference was entered) with the aid of google-translator and I have not been able to find the statement that the average daytime maximum temperature in Thision for the period 2001-2009 is 35.1°C or a table reporting a similar figure indicating an equivalent assertion. Unfortunately google-translate does not handle PDF files perfectly and I can't read from Greek, so my verification may not be considered final.

I would be grateful to every editor mothertongue Greek willing to read the climatic bulletins from 2009 (all the year, located at http://cirrus.meteo.noa.gr/forecast/deltio_noa2009.pdf ) and following and to report if anywhere (and where) is said that the the average daytime maximum temperature in Thision (period 2001–2009) for the month of July is 35.1 °C (95.2 °F).

The reason why I ask this help is that I previously detected and removed some assertions that indicated these montly bulletins as references but once verified were found inaccurate (the bulletins did not say that at all). The same statement was soon re-entered with another reference, that I found wrong as well. Best regards. --Amending (talk) 22:17, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes it is

Calculated by those above data.Btw the Catenanuova reading goes as we are talking explicitly about the OFFICIAL EUROPEAN RECORD IN THIS ARTICLE ONLY and not about non official data from dubious stations that incite polemics.We have been through this —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.197.190.60 (talk) 02:06, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree. Especially when the Catenanuova reading is also served with a high dose of WP:SYNTH, edit-warring and WP:OR. Thank you. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 02:17, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

It is unclear what Catenanuova and the WMO European temperature record have to do with the monthly climatic bulletins and how they can impact the relationship between bulletins and 35.1°C, however if somewhere that average is said by them the refrence is fully OK. Having computed it from several distinct bulletins strictu sensu is original research but the main point is assessing that it is not a hoax. For me it is OK, it is possible to verify and a single source contains all the relevant data. I would suggest to add it to a footnote. --Amending (talk) 08:09, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

OK, I am there, I had not read that series of edits about the European record yet. Agitatow is right, who knows of climatic institutions knows that very well, but this is not the place to battle that. Maybe the topic is encyclopedic enough to make an article about to clarify, but I do not think so. All this however does not impact the relationship between climatic bulletins and 35.1°C. I ask about bulletins and overall mean and I'd like to be responded about it. And I have been. Best regards. --Amending (talk) 08:23, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Article of European Temp record re-entered

Why was this removed?Article re-entered,since its important to mention that WMO gives it officially to Athens.

UHI: but that version is misleading

Sorry, this is the last long entry, I will shorten next.

That version is misleading for the reasons I have illustrated in detail. Matching that way the National Garden and Thiseio is compatible with the concept that Thiseio is unaffected at all by UHI, a thing that is falsified by published research on academic journals and conference proceedings. No-UHI in Thiseio is your respectable POV but choirs of scientific authors say the contrary in scientific journals and conference proceedings. My next step will be investigating among Wikipedia administrator what I can do in order to amend that unfortunate sentence implying that Thiseio may be unaffected by UHI and reporting in reference articles and authors saying actually the contrary.

In fact, authors saying that Thiseio is affected by UHI are referred to for the implied concept that Thiseio may be unaffected by UHI, and this good faith imprecision is quite surprising and deserves to be corrected. Moreover further academic evidences that Thiseio is affected by UHI are disregarded and most surprisingly the disregarded evidences come from the same authors that are invoked to support the idea that Thiseio can be unaffected by UHI.

This is contesting the will of the Scientists by the use of laughable arguments that in the 1985 article with the graphs drawn by hand they forgot writing "Thiseio" and in 1996-1998 they classified a datalogger at the National Garden as suburban when further evidence based on the same data show that one step outside that garden the temperature immediately increase and the National Garden does not protect its surrounding areas. And notice that UHI is known to operate also in suburban areas (not only in urban), see Gartland L. (2008). "Heat Islands. Understanding and Mitigating Heat in Urban Areas, London, Earthscan, page 2: "Urban and suburban areas have long been observed to have heat island, a 'reverse oasis' where air and surface temperatures are hotter than their rural surroundings." http://books.google.it/books?id=wokqNDknbLIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=heat+islands+understanding+and+mitigating+heat+in+urban+areas&source=bl&ots=cgkjPqimTI&sig=iXr9-TjxRp9H55yg7nJ7JSrepPs&hl=it&ei=VjbpTJ_BN4HqOdn3tYgK&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false .

Authors saying that Thiseio is affected by UHI may not be used to suggest that Thiseio may be unaffected by UHI morally: I strongly oppose this good faith misuse of reference.

But have you read the load of references for the UHI impact on NOA Thiseio that the article has? Most are still there. Just click, download the papers and read. A paper that finds UHI effect over NOA-Thiseio means is quoted here just above, one of the sequence of papers saying that, and it is co-signed by some of the authors you invoke for lack of UHI effect in NOA-Thiseio means: Livada I., Niachou K., and Santamouris M. (2005). "The impact of wind on air temperature distribution in Athens and in Santorini". International Conference "Passive and Low Energy Cooling for the Built Environment", May 2005, Santorini, Greece. They say that they screened the behavior of the NOA-Thiseio station in summer and September 2004 and they found it affected by UHI.

Just a curiosity, you say that "Livada show that the Thiseio station is classed as suburban and follows the National Garden patterns.". Where did you get such idea? Do you refer to the paper Livada I., Santamouris M., Niachou K., Papanikolaou N., Mihalakakou G. (2002). "Determination of places in the great Athens area where the heat island effect is observed". Theoretical and Applied Climatology, 71, Numbers 3-4, 219-230? I agree that most probably station 1 is at Thiseio, but the authors never say that, and I have read the paper one hundred times. In fact, if they said that I had a further strong argument in favor of Thiseio affected by UHI: the station 1 despite of the higher altitude has a overall mean temperature which is 1.2°C higher than the National Garden and this is good evidence of urban heat island effect over Thiseio NOA station. 1.2°C is altitude equivalent of about 200 meters altitude difference... But the authors actually never say that the station 1 is at or is Thiseio, and so guessing that it is at Thiseio would be at the same time POV, original research, and an unproved guess. By the way, that station follows the pattern of Thiseio in the mean temperatures of the grouped months, not the pattern of the Garden.

Interestingly I have retrieved a 2010 paper co-authored by Livada and Santamouris confirming the principle that the the heat island of Athens is "strong": "Previous studies in Athens, Greece, based on data collected from 23 stations combined with measurements from mobile stations, have confirmed the existence of a strong heat island (SANTAMOURIS et al., 2001)." The reference is Giannopoulou, K., Santamouris M., Livada I., Georgakis C., Caouris Y. (2010). "The Impact of Canyon Geometry on Intra Urban and Urban - Suburban Night Temperature Differences Under Warm Weather Conditions". Journal of Pure and Applied Geophysics, 167, p.p. 1433-1449. Just another shower in the inundation of references. But I am not insisting for entering the "strong" term in the fragment about UHI. Really the stuff would get "persecutory" while it should be neutrally descriptive.

Well, now I am KO. I'll read better your reply tomorrow, in order to interpret it properly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Amending (talk • contribs) 22:55, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

UHI: I dump the proposal of "Athens is *characterized* by ...

Some researchers in UHI really wrote that the city of Athens is characterized by a strong urban heat island effect. But I got persuaded that they actually wanted to mean "affected": one of the features of Athens is a strong urban heat island". I could say I am characterized by blue eyes when I mean my eyes are blue, it is one of my traits. I would not be not the only one with blue eyes (that do not distinguish me from others) and Athens is not the only city with a urban heat island. Perhaps Athens is characterized by the Pathenon or several other things, but UHI is a feature it has in common with most cities.

I ask the opinion of Greek native tongue wikipedia editors. Is it possible, in you opinion, that one thinks in Greek the equivalent of "Athens is affected by UHI", and translates it into English writing "Athens is characterized by UHI"? I do not know contemporary Greek but in my language such transformation would be possible (and likely to occour). "Parabola is characterized by a non-linear shape". Yes, parabola is non-linear, but parabola is not the only non-linear function. It just displays a non-linear shape like many other functions. So non-linearity is a feature, not a unique characterization. What do you think about? Amending (talk) 16:33, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

European Temperature Record in Athens

A facebook group has also been created regarding the amazing and OFFICIAL European temperature record of 48.0C recorded where else but Athens? Enjoy!!With regards to our friends in Italy http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=133151526720277#!/group.php?gid=133151526720277&v=wall

However, we should mention that this is the european record only according to WMO and that it is contested by other sources. WMO does not gather data that were registered outside of its own network. According to other sources, the highest temperature of 48.5 °C (119.3 °F) in Europe was recorded in Catenanuova, Sicily, Italy, on 10 August 1999. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Agitatov (talk • contribs) 23:45, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

You cannot add this because it is original research. Someone else has to draw the conclusion which you are drawing. You are engaging in edit-warring in order to support your synthesis. Please read WP:SYNTH and WP:OR as well as WP:V. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 23:54, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Pls do not diffuse disinformation for climate chauvinistic reasons. The problem is, that you are concealing that this record is disputed (even if you try to insist on its universal character in many forums). As you know, it is just the record of the WMO network, but there are many other climatological stations (many of them are run by municipalities, communes, agricultural authorities etc.). If it is indeed the hottest temperature ever recorded within the WMO network, we should mention that there could exist even higher values from other meteorological networks or organizations. You are trying to hide a part of the reality: you represent the Athens record as an undisputed reality without mentioning the debate about it and it's not up to you to decide whether to adjudge a scientific legitimity or not. Since it is not in our interest to oppress facts, we should at least make a restriction concerning the observation network in which the record was registered and mention that higher values were recorded outside WMO, not approved by WMO.

Be civil in your replies and do not use personal comments and ridiculous assertions like climate chauvinistic reasons. Read our WP:NPA policy on personal attacks. You are trying to insert a load of WP:SYNTH and WP:OR into the article and this will not be tolerated. The World Meteorological Organisation is the premier authority on climate in the world. Erasing this record from the article is vandalism. If you erase the section you will be reported for vandalism. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 16:19, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I have to delete this wrong information again, as the 48,5°C recorded at Catenanuova, Sicily, on August 10 1999, is official and validated by Italian Regional Authorities UCEA. Source: Agenzia Regionale per i Rifiuti e le Acque - Osservatorio delle Acque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Maxcrc/Europe#cite_note-38). Unless you do not provide any proof of the non official character of the Catenanuova record, the Athens record can not be considered as the highest temperature ever being recorded in Europe.Agitatov (talk) 14:46, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

The World Meteorological Organisation has declared the Athens record to be a record for Europe. Unless a newspaper picks up the issue you are talking about, that the Italian Meteorological Station or whatever it is, has declared the Catenanuova record to be a European record and that the WMO is wrong in declaring Athens the record-holder, and the newspaper reports on the controversy, then you can add the controversy in the article and cite the newspaper. You cannot add your own conclusions and your own research to prove that the WMO was wrong in declaring Athens the European record-holder or that the Athens record is disputed. This is called synthesis WP:SYNTH and original research WP:OR and it is not allowed. It is not up to you to determine that the WMO is wrong in declaring Athens the record-holder. You have to cite a reliable source WP:RS which disputes the Athens record per WP:V our verification policy. Alternatively the Italian Meteorological Station has to call WMO and tell them they are wrong. When WMO listens to the Italians and changes the record-holder then we can change the Athens article to reflect that. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 00:44, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Reference Verification for Climate section

I am trying to verify the reference for the statement "According to the National Observatory of Athens the average daytime maximum temperature in Thision (period 2001–2009) for the month of July is 35.1 °C (95.2 °F)" entered in 17th April 2010 h18:32 within an edit by the IP user 86.31.30.147 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Athens&direction=next&oldid=356637556#Climate http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Athens&action=historysubmit&diff=356638686&oldid=356456992 )

The reference provided is http://cirrus.meteo.noa.gr/forecast/bolam/index.htm

|title=National Observatory of Athens.Monthly bulletins
|accessdate=17 April 2010}}

that is a general weather page of the NOA website. One must click the "monthly bulletins" link and reach this webpage http://cirrus.meteo.noa.gr/forecast/bolam/index.htm?bulletins.htm~Content where a long list of montly bulletins in PDF format are found.

This way of providing a reference is sub-optimal: the readers should be given the specific bulletin where the aforementioned figure is reported. For instance, here we find the January 2010 bulletin: http://cirrus.meteo.noa.gr/forecast/deltio_noa012010.pdf, here we find the February 2010 bulletin http://cirrus.meteo.noa.gr/forecast/deltio_noa022010.pdf etcetera.

I have read all the bulletins one by one, up to April 2010 (when the reference was entered) with the aid of google-translator and I have not been able to find the statement that the average daytime maximum temperature in Thision for the period 2001-2009 is 35.1°C or a table reporting a similar figure indicating an equivalent assertion. Unfortunately google-translate does not handle PDF files perfectly and I can't read from Greek, so my verification may not be considered final.

I would be grateful to every editor mothertongue Greek willing to read the climatic bulletins from 2009 (all the year, located at http://cirrus.meteo.noa.gr/forecast/deltio_noa2009.pdf ) and following and to report if anywhere (and where) is said that the the average daytime maximum temperature in Thision (period 2001–2009) for the month of July is 35.1 °C (95.2 °F).

The reason why I ask this help is that I previously detected and removed some assertions that indicated these montly bulletins as references but once verified were found inaccurate (the bulletins did not say that at all). The same statement was soon re-entered with another reference, that I found wrong as well. Best regards. --Amending (talk) 22:17, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes it is

Calculated by those above data.Btw the Catenanuova reading goes as we are talking explicitly about the OFFICIAL EUROPEAN RECORD IN THIS ARTICLE ONLY and not about non official data from dubious stations that incite polemics.We have been through this —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.197.190.60 (talk) 02:06, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree. Especially when the Catenanuova reading is also served with a high dose of WP:SYNTH, edit-warring and WP:OR. Thank you. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 02:17, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

It is unclear what Catenanuova and the WMO European temperature record have to do with the monthly climatic bulletins and how they can impact the relationship between bulletins and 35.1°C, however if somewhere that average is said by them the refrence is fully OK. Having computed it from several distinct bulletins strictu sensu is original research but the main point is assessing that it is not a hoax. For me it is OK, it is possible to verify and a single source contains all the relevant data. I would suggest to add it to a footnote. --Amending (talk) 08:09, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

OK, I am there, I had not read that series of edits about the European record yet. Agitatow is right, who knows of climatic institutions knows that very well, but this is not the place to battle that. Maybe the topic is encyclopedic enough to make an article about to clarify, but I do not think so. All this however does not impact the relationship between climatic bulletins and 35.1°C. I ask about bulletins and overall mean and I'd like to be responded about it. And I have been. Best regards. --Amending (talk) 08:23, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Mount Lycabettus

Dimboukas (talk prefers a street than a spectacular view of Mount Lycabettus. Maybe we can have both but I think it swamps the article to have both. Nasnema  Chat  19:21, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Reference verification issue (climate)

As a reference for the statement that the highest temperatures recorded in western Athens compared to other parts of the city are due to natural causes the following reference was entered: http://www.eib.org/attachments/pipeline/20090584_eia_el.pdf that is a Environmental Impact Study for an industrial project. In my opinion such reference should be used with caution because the area of Elefsina is known for air, water and thermal pollution due to industrial emissions and waste. Using that reference might be like entrusting the fox with the guard of the chickens. A State or an academic report would be far more credible than a private one. However, I would like to ask reference verification for the relation between the Impact Study and the Wikipedia text. I have read with the aid of google-translate the paragraphs of that work regarding climate (4.1.6 and subparagraphs), and I found only descriptive statistics about climate averages, minimums, maximums etcetera, but I found no causal statements imputing this or that cause of the summer climate of the zone. That text is written in Greek, and it is quite long. So it is very long to me to read it word by word looking for the target statement or equivalent concepts. So, I would like to know where that texts say that, in which page, so I can check with reasonable effort. Also copying and pasting here the original text with the specification of the original page so we can check would be appreciated. Best regards. --Amending (talk) 11:23, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

I cannot find any such statement in the report. Maybe you can add a "failed verification" tag to the cite or preferably remove it altogether. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 17:13, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your help. I do not expect to find a very specific citation like "All western Athens heat is natural and industrial pollution does not matter at all". Also some mention to heating effects due to warm winds or to the lack or water exchange in the Gulph (invented examples) would satisfy me. In the climate paragraph I did not find even undirect assertions of this kind but they could be elsewhere. This is the reason why I asked: it is too long to check it copying-pasting into google-translate 430 pages one by one. Now I search how to place this "failed verification" tag. Rather than deleting immediately the fragment, if I am not sure that I simply missed the proper page, I would prefer to use the tag and to wait some time before deleting the target text. Thanks again. --Amending (talk) 17:56, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

No problem at all and thank you for your suggestions. I will check again with your clarifications in mind, but it may take some time. In the meantime you can use the {{failed verification}} template. Best regards. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 18:43, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Thankyou again for your time and effort. The Environmental Impact Study text is very long and in most parts it is technical, it is not easy to verify. I have tagged the reference. --Amending (talk) 19:45, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

It was a pleasure working with you. Take care Amending. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 20:14, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

I have just shortened to various natural reasons as to not sound too technical.The report mentions among other reasons geomorphology ,warm water masses,warm winds etc.Unless we want to sound too technical i dont see a reason as to why we need to add all this info.If you have another wording I am open to discuss it.So i have reverted.Also re introduced partially as it is implied that this is the only factor and also sounds biased without it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.197.190.60 (talk) 23:12, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Could you possibly provide us with an exact quote, in Greek, from the paper? Thanks. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 02:53, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Also I will shortly be adding the Pavlidou 2010 reference on Elefsina supporting the climatic variability of the bay and the area as dynamic to its warm summer climate.Note that there is a special reference that shows that the pollution of the Elefsina area is steadily decreasing the last decade.A far newer reference which I will use to completely take out the other less relevant reference provided by Amending — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.197.190.60 (talk) 23:39, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Also Dr.K I have added the extremely valuable reference from Konstantinos Mavrogiannis where in his book regarding the Athenian climate, firstly published in 1841, page 29 he specifically mentions that western Athens has been known to have higher temperatures than the rest of the city.I have the 1981 publication of the book with me in hard copy (it is in Kathareuousa however).I am not sure if it is readily available in the net however. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.197.190.60 (talk) 00:51, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Looks like good, perhaps some paper would mention also favonic conditions, and then a "warm winds" would be OK. The 2011 paper I cited does not refer to the Elefsina bay however. Western parts there are Korydallos, Agia Varvara, Haidari, Egaleo, Petroupoli, Peristeri, Llion, Agii Anagyri and Zefyri. --Amending (talk) 06:18, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps the current version is reasonable. The Giannopoulou K., Livada I., Santamouris M., Saliari M., Assimakopoulos M., Caouris Y.G. (2011). "On the characteristics of the summer urban heat island in Athens, Greece". Sustainable Cities and Society, 1, pp. 16-28 reference concludes that the high temperatures of Athens are due to the landscape shape operating as a heat-trap with the reinforcement operated by urbanization, industrialization, and anthropogenetic heat. The latter are artificial factors, but the earlier is natural. Elsewhere in the paper they say that the mountains shield the western parts from cool northern winds more than they do in the other parts of the city. It is reasonable to conclude that despite of the most intense industrialization effect operating in the western parts, the mountains shield the winds and prevent them from sweeping away the accumulated anthropogenetic heat (while in other parts of the city the wind may sweep away the urban heat island in some circumstances). So at least one known natural factor operates. --Amending (talk) 08:32, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Thank you Amending. Since you have access to the paper by Giannopoulou et al. and can verify the concepts, I am fine with that. I am still not sure about the The Environmental Impact Study pdf reference, since no verbatim Greek text has been provided, but I will leave it at that for the moment hoping such quotation can be provided. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 16:08, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Other references currently in the article text hold that principle (all that heat has substantive natural components), and non-pertinent references might be simply dropped. Me too I'd appreciate to see a copy-paste of the target text or a screenshot of it. It is also possible, however, that in a 430 page book in another language one editor can't retrieve a specific sentence or fragment of sentence s/he had read in the past. In such case in my opinion such editor should drop the reference, especially when other references hold the concept as it happens in this case. But this is the same reason why I would suggest to specify the page where one found the things. In a 12-20 pages article, it is matter of 1/2 hour to read it and retrieve the sentence. In a book that is more difficult. Who wants to check (or maybe who is interested in going into greater detail about background concepts) should preferably be given the page number. That's my opinion.

I would like also to express one reserve about providing reference to a hardcopy of a book in Greek as a response to a request of verification for a reference to a web accessible text in Greek. This is, in practice, providing a reference which is even more difficult to verify than the original reference which is difficult to verify (and the difficolty of which originated the query). I believe that verifying should be encouraged and facilitated. --Amending (talk) 12:00, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree. Especially the "Environmental Impact Study" needs specific page numbers and exact quotes to be verifiable, since it is so lengthy. In Wikipedia we need to be able to verify facts according to WP:V. Verifiability has to be facilitated by page numbers and quotations. Verifiability does not mean that one must swim in walls of text, in a foreign language to boot, until they drown. Same goes with obscure, out of print, books. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 13:35, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

After almost one month we are still waiting for the screenshots of the target text...--Amending (talk) 20:34, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Means table addition

Hi I would like to add the means of the Thiseio station for period 1971-2000 as published in the monthly bulletins of the National Observatory of Athens.I am a bit confused with the tables though,can someone help?

Here are the data provided from the N.O.A http://cirrus.meteo.noa.gr/forecast/bolam/index.htm , go to monthly bulletins and choose month of interest and data will appear.I have used the 2010 bulletins as reference.I am retaining the 1961-1990 mean for rain as the 1971-2000 data have not been published.

1971-2000 Thiseio station WMO id 16714 January Mean max 13.0 Mean min 6.7 Rain 44.6mm (1961-1990) February Mean max 13.7 Mean min 6.8 Rain 48.3mm March Mean max 16.1 Mean min 8.2 Rain 42.6mm April Mean max 20.5 Mean min 11.6 Rain 28.2mm May Mean max 25.8 Mean min 16.0 Rain 17.2mm June Mean max 30.6 Mean min 20.4 Rain 9.7mm July Mean max 33.1 Mean min 22.8 Rain 4.2mm August Mean max 32.8 Mean min 22.5 Rain 4.6mm September Mean max 29.2 Mean min 19.4 Rain 11.9mm October Mean max 23.5 Mean min 15.1 Rain 47.7mm November Mean max 18.1 Mean min 11.2 Rain 50.6mm December Mean max 14.4 Mean min 8.2 Rain 66.6mm

Ok, I have now added the table with the updated values for temperature for the Thissio station which is the most representative and historical station of Athens

You are not forced to enter rain. If you do not like rain and temperature to refer to different time intervals, you can simply drop the line of rain like here:

Climate data for National Observatory of Athens (Thissio), 107 m asl (1971-2000)
Month	Jan	Feb	Mar	Apr	May	Jun	Jul	Aug	Sep	Oct	Nov	Dec	Year
Mean daily maximum °C (°F)	13.0 (55.4)	13.7 (56.7)	16.1 (61.0)	20.5 (68.9)	25.8 (78.4)	30.6 (87.1)	33.1 (91.6)	32.8 (91.0)	29.2 (84.6)	23.5 (74.3)	18.1 (64.6)	14.4 (57.9)	22.6 (72.6)
Mean daily minimum °C (°F)	6.7 (44.1)	6.8 (44.2)	8.2 (46.8)	11.6 (52.9)	16.0 (60.8)	20.4 (68.7)	22.8 (73.0)	22.5 (72.5)	19.4 (66.9)	15.1 (59.2)	11.2 (52.2)	8.2 (46.8)	14.1 (57.3)
Source: National Observatory of Athens

I do not know how to avoid that the system reports the second unuseful and unsignificant decimal for the yearly average, perhaps there is no way to remove it.

But please notice that the sources should preferably be specified with detail, for instance by adding a footnote indicating the URL of all the bulletins where the single monthly averages '71-2000 have been retrieved. In practice collecting figures from different publications is original research, but if they can promply verify without complex or long operations, I believe that most editors will accept it. --Amending (talk) 08:45, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Ok,lets accept your proposal.You can add it if you want

Actually now that I am looking at it better the monthly bulletins of 2010 refer to the rain means of 1961-1990 so that would not constitute original research.You can check the monthly bulletins for verification

Perhaps it is not very clear that it is not others that must show that the sources are not goot. It is who claims things that must show as clearly as s/he can that the sources really say that. So if one of the climatic bulletins reports those means, its URL should be supplied. --Amending (talk) 08:55, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

The url is provided above.As also instructions on what you need to do to check the bulletins.The bulletins refer to 1971-2000 temperature and 1961-1990 rain.So by no means original research!Cheers — Preceding unsigned comment added by Weatherextremes (talk • contribs) 08:58, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Pantanassa Monastery

Can someone please replace the church's photo in the Pantanassa article? I found a good one from here. 207.233.32.17 (talk) 00:43, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Omonoia Photo

I just added a photo of Omonoia Square and then a user reverted and added another photo, which apart that is ugly, it doesnt even show the Square but the surrounding buildings. More than half of the image shows the surrounding buildings, and one cannot even tell this is a square actually just by looking the photo. It could very well be a pavement. Because of that I will change the photo to a night shot that shows the complete square (so that the reader understand what we are talking about), unless some other user has a better photo that shows a SQUARE and not surrounding buildings with some pavement.Thanks.Nochoje (talk) 20:52, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

You switched the pictures while reverting. I reverted File:Athens_Omonoia_square_NW_view.jpg which is an ugly picture with very limited perspective and worse than the picture it was replacing. Then in your revert you replaced it with another picture of Image:Omonoia-Athens4.jpg of Omonoia by night without saying so in your edit summary. Then you come here and complain. Next time use the edit summary and explain what you are doing clearly. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 21:07, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Not again with the lousy pictures...Athenean (talk) 21:18, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Hi Athenean. There were some more pics added by this user, in addition to the Omonoia picture. I haven't checked them for quality. If you think they are not up to par please feel free to remove them. Thank you. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 21:22, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Actually, this time I think the new Omonoia pic is better than the old one. The others seem ok too. Athenean (talk) 21:25, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

I removed the Lycabbetus picture because it was at night and close to another night picture. The daylight Lycabettus is brighter and has better perspective IMO. If you don't think so please undo. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 21:34, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Olympics

Hey could we get some information about the downside of the Olympics? I have read in multiple other sources that it was very bad for the Athenian economy.

Nope, it was bad for the national economy, not for the local. Athens in fact benefited greatly from hosting the Games, but the downside was nation-wide. --SilentResident (talk) 21:40, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Athens GaWC rank

Athens is listed as a Beta+ world city (http://www.lboro.ac.uk/gawc/world2010t.html) as seen in the source listed in the article, which incorrectly states it is an Alpha 'world city'. My edit was disputed as I did not provide citation, however the one present for 'alpha world city' [7] is clearly evidence to the contrary.

HS — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.184.255.92 (talk) 22:40, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

 Done Fixed. Thanks for the heads up HS. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 22:50, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Personally, I feel this whole Alpha Beta world city is a total crock. Who is GaWC anyway, and why should we consider them a reliable source and their ranking sufficiently important to insert it in the lede of the article? Athenean (talk) 23:42, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

 Done Removed. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 00:05, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

File:Dipylon-vase.jpg Nominated for Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Dipylon-vase.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests March 2012 What should I do? Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:Dipylon-vase.jpg) This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 20:02, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

File:Central Athens aerial view 1900.tif Nominated for Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Central Athens aerial view 1900.tif, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests April 2012 What should I do? Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:Central Athens aerial view 1900.tif) This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 21:23, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

This is the result of some nosey-parker Germans trying to continue their domination of Europe. The claim is that images from 1900 are not public domain (even though the commercial copyright has clearly expired) and that there is some fictional photographer/artist etc whose intellectual copyright would be breached, since intellectual copyright in most European countries expires 70 years after the author's death.

Such a claim is not consistent with reality or law. It is some nonsense that wikimedia has dreamed up, and basically has the effect of preventing the public from viewing images that lie in the public domain. In this case, the PD image was very poor quality and required hours of graphics work to make into a useful image. The image is therefore a new copyright, and has been posted on wikimedia as such.

If you object to the legalistic nonsenses that they are getting up to, please go over to the page link and comment on the deletions page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.72.226.68 (talk) 12:41, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Update: I recommend boycotting wikimedia commons, and using Flickr. There is far more respect for your own copyright and other personal rights there. You will have to use the licence CC-by-SA in order to use any images from there over here on WP. 85.72.220.33 (talk) 00:30, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Climate data

When I read the Climate section, I see the sentence "Mount Parnitha creates a rainshadow for the city, as a result of which precipitation is typically lower than in other parts of the Balkans; for a typical comparison, Tirana receives over three times more rainfall and Shkodra about five times as much."

I do not see the logic behind this statement. If you want to compare the precipitation of Athens, you should compare it with other Greek cities. To compare it with 2 humid Albanian cities does not make absolutely any sense, because the casual reader will get the impression that Athens is very dry place in comparison to the rest of the Balkans which is NOT true: Skopje, Sofia and Belgrade receive comparable precipitation with Athens (skopje in particular receives even less, although deeper into the balkan peninsula). Even inside Greece, there are other cities that receive less precipitation than Athens, so the comparison made in that sentence is NOT typical (not to mention also the fact that it uses only Albanian cities the one of which is relatively unknown). If the author of this sentence wants to provide comparisons, he/she should mention what is happening to other Balkan capitals, that shows that Athens is not typically drier.

Moreover, it is NOT mount Parnitha that gives the rainshadow to Athens. Not to mention that there is not reference to that sentence. So I remove the whole sentence for now and unless the author provides some more "typical" examples for comparison and a reference on why Parnitha casts a rainshadow, the sentence should be removed from this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.218.253.49 (talk) 12:13, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Katharevousa in lead

Why is Katharevousa "necessary"? — Lfdder (talk) 14:18, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Because katharevousa is a variety of Modern Greek officially used until 1976. Ἀθῆναι is to be found everywhere in older Modern Greek literature and is still sometimes used in formal speech either as Ἀθῆναι or more usually as Ἀθηνῶν. All these it is good to differentiate them from Ancient Greek. Dimboukas (talk) 22:38, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Αθηνών has been integrated into Demotic like many other Katharevousa words/phrases. Nobody says Αθήναι. Modern Greek literature is not particularly relevant in English WP. — Lfdder (talk) 23:07, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

You didn't comment on the fact that Αθήναι is still seen. Moreover, if we exclude it, we leave no clue about how the city was called between 1830-1976. Dimboukas (talk) 00:36, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I did. Addressed under 'Etymology'. — Lfdder (talk) 00:47, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

The proper way to call the city of Athens is "Αθήναι". We say "η πόλις των Αθηνών" (the city of Athens) and "ο Δήμος των Αθηνών" the township of Athens. This is historically, grammatically and even ...ethically correct. It is true that in colloquial speech most Athenians for short and ease use the name in its singular form, but officially the plural is correct and should be used. After all in every language the city is referred to in plural.

Change of photos of the article

Greco22 keeps changing the photos (extensively) of the article. Now we had a stable version of good quality photos that depicit satisfactory Athens. For instance the cityscape photo is great, as is important as well the photo of the coastline of Paleo faliro (before there was not even 1 photo showing Athens coastline). Athens is not only museums and churches, it has also a coastline, the key element that diversifies it from other European capitals. There was also a photo from the important Planetarium (unique of its kind in Europe in terms of technology). Now this user, erases all that and adds photos like the statue of Theseus with aircraft contrails in the background a disgusting non representative photo called "panoramic view" with some comments on non-existence of greenery n'stuff (no citacion). I think we should reach a consensus before datum user can revert so extensively a stable version. Thanks.Astarti34 (talk) 20:34, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Feel free to add or modify , for example if you think Palaio Faliro is necessary put it. Or if you want to remove something. Do not revert the edit cause we added new staff (Btw the pics are of the top quality if you look commons)

To express my view... a statue of Athena, which locates in Athens is more suitable than one from abrod. The temple of Hephaistus is the best preserved of all ancient, the temple of Olympian Zeus also is a major landmark. Now if you dont like the fact that Athens dont have so much green spaces, what can Isay, remove it Greco22 (talk) 21:32, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

OK i'll remove some photos of yours and add some. Some photos you added are OK...but let's leave it to consensus to decide.Astarti34 (talk) 21:42, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

 Done. Issue solved.Astarti34 (talk) 22:00, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Suggestion

We could create two articles for Athens (Athens for the whole agglomeration of Athens and City of Athens or Municipality of Athens for the area of municipality). Some topics such as mayors, administrative elections, city of Athens neighbourhoods, sport clubs in city of Athens and others belong to the article City or Municipality of Athens. --Odythal (talk) 17:53, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Piraeus, one of the largest ports in Europe

Currently this article includes in the intro [Athens] .... features the largest passenger port in Europe, and the third largest in the world. This is outdated, Piraeus was overtaken by other ports in the past years. I was advised to raise this one the talk page, so here it is. It should be changed into something like .... features one of the largest passenger ports in Europe. Reference to be used for this one: http://www.europeancruisecouncil.com/images/downloads/reports/CLIA_2014.pdf - p.10. This is an authorative recent source, it's a reliable statistic source from the cruise industry itself. The Spiegel article, that user:Athenaen provided, can not be regarded as an authoritive source on port statistics. It will be easy to find other news articles, or tourist websites that still claim Athens boasts the largest passenger port in Europe, but we should use a reliable statistic source, of course. Please give your objections, if any, fellow Wikipedians. 82.174.116.230 (talk) 17:48, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

The source you have provided only mentions cruise ship traffic. But as everyone knows, the bulk of the passenger traffic in Piraeus is from ferries to and from the islands, not cruise ships. Therefore the Spiegel source stands. Athenean (talk) 20:00, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

If you want to compare it in that way - I agree it is preferrable - Piraeus is beaten by quite a number of other European ports: after Dover, Helsinki and seven others, it only appers on the tenth place, see: Top 20 ports - Passengers embarked and disembarked in each port, by direction by eurostat. Spiegel source doesn't stand, also because just some Spiegel article should not be used for a specific statistical comparison like this one. Preferably use a statistical source, with all contestants compared in a fair way. Please be critical about what source suits what situation. Ciao, 82.174.116.230 (talk) 22:33, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

In case you haven't noticed, more sources have been added, whereas all you have provided is a dead link. Athenean (talk) 22:46, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for noticing me. This eurostat website is complex, one should make a bookmark instead of copying the web adress (which I did before). Here is the bookmark: [6]. Piraeus is not the largest passenger port in Europe, according to the most relevant governmental statistical comparison available. Please remove this claim, it's not proven at all. Kind regards. 82.174.116.230 (talk) 22:53, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Just one source has been added, Athenean. Well, ref name="Weng2014" is not as trustworthy on statistical comparisons as Eurostat. It's always possible to find some source, that uses outdated or wrongly interpreted statistics. Why citing an author who specializes on environmental change (not the subject of the comparison, in any case), and is not our first choice in cases like this one , and not Eurostat? Looks like you're trying to find something that suits you. Ciao, 82.174.116.230 (talk) 23:04, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

It's always possible to find some source, that uses outdated or wrongly interpreted statistics. Nope. Your source is a WP:PRIMARYSOURCE while the reliable sources we provided are secondary sources. It is not up to you to interpret the primary sources. That's why we have secondary sources. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 23:20, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

That's not correct. It's not a primary source. It's an indepent source, neutral to all ports in Europe and a secondary source because they gather the primary statistics, check them and publish them according to their criteria, so no Eurostat is the author -> secondary. So, no primary character, I would say. It's also not original research, I have not been doing any research at all, I'm just checking the most authoritive website on this question. Ciao, 82.174.116.230 (talk) 23:25, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes it is a primary source. It is a statistical agency which publishes raw statistics. Your interpretation of these statistics constitutes original research. The reliable secondary sources are the ones to be trusted with interpreting the data. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 23:33, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Well, Eurostat relates data from primay sources, so according to our rules, it's not a primary source. But, maybe this one can convince you: [7]. Clearly, Piraeus is not the largest passenger port in Europe. And check this one as well, please: [8]. 82.174.116.230 (talk) 00:28, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Your first reference calls Dover "the busiest ferry port in Europe". I hope you understand the difference with the phrase "the largest passenger port of Europe". The second book is titled "Wild Acorns", hardly a relevant publication, unless the topic is about nuts as opposed to ports. In any case even the nutty publication calls Dover the "busiest ferry port in Europe", which is completely different to the description used for Piraeus. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 01:15, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

References

Timeline of Athens

What is missing from the recently created city timeline article? Please add relevant content. Contributions welcome. Thank you. -- M2545 (talk) 15:19, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

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Remind

Just a remind. Some important naming conventions which the article's lead violates (WP:LEAD#General guidelines and WP:LEAD#Separate section usage): Once a Names or Etymology section or paragraph is created, the alternative English or foreign names should not be moved back to the first line. As an exception, a local official name different from a widely accepted English name should be retained in the lead. (Foreign language: Local name; known also by several alternative names)".' If the case is exceptional, common sense may be applied to ignore all rules. Please discuss to decide whether this is an exceptional case or not.2A02:2430:3:2500:0:0:B807:3DA0 (talk) 04:10, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

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Athens Flag subject to copyright/law restrictions?

It came to my notice that Athen's flag (if a city has any) is usually present in the articles about these cities, and I know that Athens got its own flag. It can be seen here at: link but is absent from the English article. I thought to re-upload it for the English Wikipedia, and I have looked across the Wikimedia Commonsto see if I can find any clue (i.e if there are legal persecutions for uploading the flag) but I couldn't find any. Just I want to be cautious, anyone knows anything about that, or is it ok to upload the flag? -- SILENTRESIDENT 19:27, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

Digging in the History Log, didn't provide much info except that someone already has uploaded the flag but it was deleted from Commons because of Copyright violation: link. Still I am not sure why Flags of other Greek cities are permitted in their infoboxes (i.e. Thessalonica) but Flag of Athens is not permitted? Aren't all the Greek city symbols and city flags supposed to be treated the same in terms of Copyright? -- SILENTRESIDENT 20:08, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

Athens Gross metropolitan product

Anyone got the Gross metropolitan product data for the city of Athens? Eurostat appears to have released the "Gross domestic product (GDP) at current market prices at NUTS level 3". E (Retrieved 2 December 2011) here at: [9] But I am having trouble understanding how the data sheet works. Any help will be greatly appreciated. -- SILENTRESIDENT 19:11, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

It is possible to select all Greek entries in the Eurostat data sheet by clicking the "GEO" link above the table and choosing "Filtering" by "Code range" from "Min: EL" to "Max: EL999". The problem is 1) that the data goes only down to NUTS level 3, which is the Nomos level, so that there is data only for Nomos Attiki, not for Athens, and 2) that the newest numbers are from 2011, which possibly is a bit too old to be of interest. --T*U (talk) 10:09, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

Suggested photos for replacing the non-FoP image from Athen's Collage

Given that the current collage of Athens in the infobox has been removed and nominated for deletion due to containing a component image (New Acropolis Museum photo) that has violated non-FoP (see Commons:Deletion requests/Files in Category:Acropolis New Museum Building), the New Acropolis Museum photo needs to be replaced if we are to restore the collage back to the article.

The collage's other pictures, however appear to be ok. Here is list of the remainder pictures of the old collage, which will still be part of the new collage:

• File:Acropilos wide view.jpg, by nl:User:LennieZ, cc-by-sa 3.0
• File:Hellenic Parliament from high above.jpg, by Flickr user Gerard McGovern, cc-by 2.0
• File:View of Athens from Lycabettus.jpg, by Dimboukas.
• File:Monastiraki Square Athens 2010.jpg, by Dimboukas.
• File:Zappeion Megaron Athens.jpg, by Dimboukas.

Any suggestions for replacements of the New Acropolis Museum photo? (note: you can choose only among aesthetically beautiful photos that are clear and have a good resolution). On Wikimedia Commons, you can find many beautiful pictures of cultural/educational places and buildings across the city of Athens, which can be a replacement for the New Acropolis Museum, here at: [10]).

Future Perfect at Sunrise, since you were involved in the deletion of the collage, could you like to give some suggestions for good replacements of that photo to speed up its recovery to the article? -- SILENTRESIDENT 19:55, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

As you might have guessed, I'm not particularly fond of the collage format here either, and I'm quite content with a single landmark photograph. A view of the Acropolis from Lycabettus, showing the situation of that iconic landmark between that small corner of old town in the foreground, and the characteristic sea of white-gray residential buildings articulated by the pattern of cross-cutting straight streets in the background, seems like quite an adequate representation of the character of this city. If you want to have a collage again, don't count on me. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:15, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

It is a very beautiful photo, and just reading your description of the photo here, feels exactly like that: a beautiful photo that has a unique charm. The collage already includes the view of Athens and the Acropolis from Lecabettus, so that's not a problem. The collage serves to highlight the richness of Athens. While the Acropolis represents the Athen's Classical period, the beautiful Tsisdarakis Mosque in Monastiraki represents Athens's Ottoman period and the Greek Parliament represents Athens's modern period. But I am struggling finding a post-modern landmark of Athens to replace the New Acropolis Museum one which got deleted. I was wondering if the Athens Olympic Sports Complex "Spiros Louis" should make a good replacement candidate. -- SILENTRESIDENT 17:02, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

Turns out that even the photo of Athens Olympic Sports Complex has copyright issues. --SILENTRESIDENT 18:26, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

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Athens Montage

Greetings,I suggest the removal and replacement of the image of Athens Olympic Sports Complex in the city's collage.I believe it does not correspond with the current state of the complex and it might be misleading (As it marks a specific event).Athens has an abundance of World status landmarks worthy to be included. I suggest:

• Evening columns Zeus temple Athens.jpg
• Temple of Hephaestos; Greece, Athens 450-441 B.C..jpg
• Άγιος Διονύσιος Αεροπαγίτης - εσωτερικό 1053 hdr.jpg
• Μητρόπολη Αθηνών 3321.jpg
• Μητρόπολη Αθηνών 4210.jpg
• Stavros Niarchos Foundation Cultural Center Entrance Channel View (195085293).jpeg
• National Library of Greece at the Stavros Niarchos Foundation Cultural Centre 16.jpg
• Acropolis Museum 2009 - panoramio (106).jpg
• Athens - Plaka - panoramio.jpg
• Monastiraki in Roman agorà , Athens. - panoramio.jpg
• View of Acropolis from Monastiraki.jpg
• Temple of Athena Nike (5041690983).jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by AlbusTheWhite (talk • contribs) 20:03, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Another Etymology for Athens?

King Alfonso X of Castile, 'the savant', in the: 'General History', Book VII, number XL: 'About how the king Jupiter -of Crete- and their gods gave Athens this name': quoting Ovid, he remarks that Athens meant: 'Place without death' (particle: 'A' is a negation; Thanatos, Tanit, Astarte, Ishtar, was the Semitic goddess of death), but in the line of: 'without ignorance'. Should this be brought to main article?. Thanks. Gesund + — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hijuecutivo (talk • contribs) 08:52, 23 September 2018 (UTC)

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