Talk:Armenia/Archive 7

This is an archive of past discussions about Armenia. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

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Archive 5

Military>Armenia

On the Armenia Wikipedia page, at the bottom there is a section for the military.

I was thinking of replacing the pictures with one of these. We should vote and negotiate which to add. I'm from the US and I'm an American so I don't know much about the Armenian military or what the uniforms are. But based on the blue berets, flag patches, and shirts, I would think they are.

http://imgur.com/Qb2TQ

http://imgur.com/IRPwC Europe301 (talk) 21:06, 11 April 2011

Well uniform will vary depending on occasion. There's no harm in adding those pictures, though probably should go in the Armenian Army page. MosMusy (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:21, 12 April 2011 (UTC).

Republic Square Parade

I've noticed that one picture of the Republic Square Parade (located in the "military" section of the Armenia page) says that the APCs there are BTR-70s. The Armenian Army page shows the same photograph near the bottom, but says that the vehicles are BTR-70s. I've looked over the two vehicles and I think that they look too similar for me to judge which is which. Can someone fix this error? (TheEvanCat (talk) 12:52, 27 June 2011 (UTC))

Layout

This article is poorly written, poorly cited, and poorly organized. If one looks at the articles for many European countries (Germany being an exemplary example) one could see just how beautifully structured they are. Armenia's page is riddled with excess photographs, entire sections lacking serious citation, and egregious use of lists, a problem which plagues the Wikipedia article for Yerevan as well. At the same time, some sections (History, Geography, Demographics) are scantily written. Montyofarabia (talk) 01:04, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

I've also come to realize that the Armenia article completely lacks sections for Transportation and Science/Technology, and the culture section could be expanded considerably. The 'lists' are embarrassingly dull and aesthetically unappealing. Montyofarabia (talk) 02:27, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

I noticed this the other day. I know it was the least of your concerns but I changed the heading layout to a more logical one used by many other nation articles. However the Municipalities in Armenia template seems to be broken and overlaps the text below it. Can anyone fix this? --Iae (talk) 17:31, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Geographical Description

Sthana in Sanskrit means place. While Usthan in Persian means province. Rigvedic Sanskrit and Avestan Persian are twin languages and the oldest Aryan languages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.175 (talk) 20:38, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

I propose that we just leave out "Southwest Asia" or "Eurasia" and instead just say "is a landlocked mountainous country in the South Caucasus region." This was a solution used for Georgia, and is a good one in my view as it will prevent further complaints and warring. MosMusy (talk) 23:02, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree that Armenia definitely should not be considered in Southwest Asia. Southwest? You will make the readers think Armenia is no where near the border of Asia/Europe. If Cyprus is completely in Asia, then why on the Cyprus page does it say that Cyprus is a Eurasian country? Can't the location be edited to say that Armenia is in Eurasia? You are basing the country just because of location. The country has nothing to do with Middle eastern culture, traditions, religions, or politics. I for one am tired of seeing debates about the location of Armenia. Why do the moderators try so hard to exclude Armenia from Europe. Just because it is out of the boundaries does not mean it isn't European. It is a member of the Council of Europe, and only European nations may join this organization. Just change the location to Eurasia, since geographically it's in Asia, but culturally,politically, and socially it is European...I live in the U.S. and in all my history school books, Armenia is listed in both Asia and Europe. Probably 60% of the Armenians I meet consider themselves European and those that consider themselves Middle eastern probably had family come from Lebanon,Syria,etc. Europe301 (talk) 16:29, 10 April 2011

In my view, it's best just to leave out Southwest Asia, and just say South Caucasus. The reader will then be able to conclude from reading the article of the connection that Armenia has to Europe. MosMusy (talk) 00:13, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Here is the solution brought to the Georgia page, "Most WP:NPOV solution is in recent edit by Chipmunkdavis, limiting the entire matter to the accurate, precise, descriptive, yet non-controversial term South Caucasus and eliminating Southwest Asia or Eastern Europe or Eurasia references.DLinth (talk) 15:56, 8 April 2011 (UTC)" based on this I will eliminate the word Southwest Asia, and leave just South Caucasus. If any objections, then raise. MosMusy (talk) 00:15, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree, South Caucasus is the most straight forward term to be used.--Moosh88 (talk) 01:20, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

BTW, where can I find a listing of all the purposed maps for Armenia?--Moosh88 (talk) 01:31, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Here you can find some: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Maps_of_Armenia MosMusy (talk) 01:53, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I have restored the long-standing description for the country's location in the lead, as was long the case with Georgia and Azerbaijan. The article already noted that the country is in the South Caucasus ... in the geography section. Why should the article lead be minimalist and refrain from accurately describing the macro-location of the country, e.g., Libya being in northern Africa, and such? Little has been provided to support the change. The prior lead is far more balanced than one that is 'supposed' to have a reader conclude a connection to Europe when one can also be made that there is a connection to Asia ... as the UN asserts for statistical purposes, e.g. United Nations geoscheme. How can one draw the line of the Asia/Europe juncture clearly between Armenia and Georgia/Azerbaijan, as the recently changed lead had done? Simple: you can't. Conventions and compendiums generally include all of the Caucasus states in Asia, or in Europe, not one and the other. I also do not see how removing the long-standing description will preclude edit wars ... you'll just have some other editor come along to insert Europe etc. anyway if they are resolved to. At least the long-standing lead mollifies -- and had done so -- for most who would try. Bosonic dressing (talk) 04:40, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Alright, I don't have a big problem with what you have, you will just have to deal with a onslaught of people voicing their concerns. MosMusy (talk) 22:33, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. Considering that the prior consensual lead was in place for quite sometime -- like many months -- before it was recently changed, that is somewhat doubtful. But, be prepared! :) Bosonic dressing (talk) 23:06, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

We all agree....the more specific mentions of "Europe" or "Asia", the more likely a POV editor will start a rv war by insisting "Europe or nothing" or "Asia or nothing." None of us want that. I think it's safer to leave "Europe" or "Asia" completely out, like Cyprus and like User:MosMusy suggests above. However, we can try it this way, as long as it's non-specific language such as "crossroads" (the edit I just made, to make the lead on all three Caucasus states the same) which is a non-specific term that has been in use here, and as long as Western Asia is listed first, before Eastern Europe, ok?

To that last point, we have to all agree that the most WP:RS sources here, those that have always defined Continents, are the geographers and their atlases and lists, and the many CIA geographers CIA Factbook, the many US National Geographic geographers, the ones I work with, the UK Royal Geographic geographers, most atlases, etc. place all of Armenia and all or most of the other two in West Asia. But since the Caucasus countries have so much (more than any other states?) political dialogue and membership in European groups, Europe deserves some mention....but not primary and definitely no "Europe only", right?

I think we are in agreement that the long-standing and rather impartial lead here (and for the other Caucasian state articles, plus Cyprus, I might add) is fine as before, more or less. In fact, they were fairly static for sometime before recent more contestable changes to them -- remember, in some quarters, Eurasia is a continent; all also already indicate in one manner or another that they are part of/in the Caucasus. I too am in agreement that I have seen more sources place these states in Asia than in Europe (and, it's also alphabetical (A-E) and, hence, that ordering is fine, IMO), but enough of the latter to justify the prior neutral wording and the footnotes, which expand on the topic; as well, the first sentence of the note should remain, as it explains the contents of the footnote. Bosonic dressing (talk) 07:46, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Different topic, old "battle": Currently, as espoused in the Cyprus discussion page, the top little locator maps often do NOT show de facto separatist regions recognized by no (in Azer) or only a very few (in Georgia) nations, nor the UN. Azer, Somalia, Cyprus all agree.**...Only Georgia currently (a recent change) and Moldova (why?) show them. Most reliable atlases sources (see above) do not show these separatist, de facto independent regions on the "general" maps, like WP locator maps at the top. They are already well shown on the larger scale maps further down in the articles. We should return to a Georgia locator map NOT showing these, yes? **Serbia and W. Sahara (Morocco) are both recognized by 70 or so nations, and, like China, India-Pak, are not relevant comparisons....They should be different, as, worldwide, geographers and atlases treat them differently.....they are different historically, are not separatist movements per se (W. Sahara was already separate under Spain), etc. DLinth (talk) 17:49, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

IMO, the current locator map, exhibiting the contested nature of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, is fine. Even though the contested territories are not widely recognized de jure states, their de facto status requires different treatment. Compare with the PRC, India, and Serbia, for example; the circumstances may be different, but the end result is similar. Perhaps they can be exhibited differently (compare [1]), but to not exhibit them somehow denies reality and would be a disservice to users. Bosonic dressing (talk) 08:02, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

That is why I thought saying just "South Caucasus" was a good fix. It's not controversial, it's accurate and indisputable, and it is also necessary because the Caucasus region as a whole is rather unique and is in many respects (geography, culture, history, etc.) its own entity separate from Anatolia, Middle East, etc. The mention of Armenia's current integration with Europe is clearly stated in the opening. MosMusy (talk) 03:12, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Roman temple at Garni

As I know the temple at Garni is Armenian. It can be considered Hellenistic(from architectural point of view), but not Roman in any case. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tigransh (talk • contribs) 05:30, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

national motto

Armenia has a national motto? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.232.72.49 (talk) 13:07, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Fake in demographics/Ethnic groups: Comparison table of Armenian, Azerbaijani and Kurdish population of Armenia

The Russian census for 1897 is not for the Republic of Armenia, but Erivan governorate. The two areas are different (the governorate contained Nakhichevan and Igdir, the Republic contains Lori, Tavush and Syunik) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erivan_Governorate

Does this picture is Azeri propaganda? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.32.184.197 (talk) 18:40, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

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Is it in Europe or Asia?

This article does not make it clear if it is Europe or Asia. The same for the rest of the Caucus states. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.2.61.172 (talk) 02:44, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

This topic, which also manifests itself in map(s) within this article, and for Azerbaijan and Georgia, was discussed at great length by a number of editors not too many months ago....see talk pages.

WP:Consensus was fairly clear...while Armenia is entirely and Azerbaijan and Georgia mostly physiographically in Asia, the three (Christian Armenia for one) have a number of cultural and political ties to Europe. UN Statistics Office, World Factbook, National Geographic atlases, Webster's Geographic Dictionary, most other atlas and map makers, indeed, most of the geographers, who should probably carry the most weight, list these partly or entirely within Asia, all using the crest of the Caucasus Mountains as the traditional geographic divide, as clearly described at Borders of the continents, an excellent WP article. Since a continent has over history been primarily a physical geographic - physiographic precept, "Asia" seems preferable.

But with the aforementioned strong political and cultural "associations", it was agreed to instead use the "crossroads of Asia and Europe", which seems to be a good compromise on an issue that may be 60-40 in favor of Asia, more on the physical geography front, but certainly not decisive overall enough to say just one or the other.

As with Cyprus, I suppose further down under geography one could add a "Armenia falls within Southwest Asia from a physiographic standpoint.DLinth (talk) 19:00, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Human Development Index 2011

Please change the data for Armenia's HDI. It has grown to 0.716 since 2010

http://hdr.undp.org/en/media/HDR_2011_EN_Complete.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by XdeX (talk • contribs) 15:57, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

small mistake

I don't seem to have permission to edit the article, but it says "In 1920, Turkish nationalist forces invaded the fledgling Armenian republic from the east and the Turkish-Armenian War began." It should of course say that the republic was invaded from the west. Wikiboer (talk) 06:14, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Emerging Democracy?

The introduction says that Armenia is an emerging democracy. Isn't this alittle inaccurate? Shouldn't the article mention that Armenia has an autocratic or semi-autocratic regime? After all, Freedom House calls the country "Not Free."

Also, shouldn't the article mention the genocide of Azerbaijanis by Armenia in 1988-1994? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.214.240.145 (talk) 01:14, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

All Things Considered

"The Government of Armenia holds European integration as a key priority in its foreign policy as it is considered a European country by the European Union." This raises some questions. Is Armenia considered a European country by the Soviet Union? Will the dropping of trade barriers with Europe create dumping of German kebabs on the Armenian market? How many times per week do Armenians eat kebab? Is Constantinople considered a European country by the European Union? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.125.86.17 (talk) 02:21, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your casual racism. --Satani (talk) 12:50, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Armenia as the first officially Christian state - inaccurate information (please verify)

Old text: [...] becoming the first officially Christian state, ten years before the Roman Empire granted Christianity an official toleration under Galerius, and 36 years before Constantine the Great was baptized.

respectively

Armenia was the first nation to adopt Christianity as a state religion, an event traditionally dated to AD 301.[95][96][97][98]

This is inaccurate. The first Christian state (officially) was Antiohia (en Antioch) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antioch

Quote: Late Antiquity[edit]

ChristianityAntioch was a chief center of early Christianity. The city had a large population of Jewish origin in a quarter called the Kerateion, and so attracted the earliest missionaries.[6] Evangelized, among others, by Peter himself, according to the tradition upon which the Antiochene patriarchate still rests its claim for primacy,[7] and certainly later[8] by Barnabas and Paul during Paul's first missionary journey. Its converts were the first to be called Christians.[9] This is not to be confused with Antioch in Pisidia, to which the early missionaries later travelled.[10]

A bronze coin from Antioch depicting the emperor Julian. Note the pointed beard.The population was estimated by Chrysostom at about 100,000 people at the time of Theodosius I. Between 252 and 300, ten assemblies of the church were held at Antioch and it became the seat of one of the four original patriarchates, along with Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Rome (see Pentarchy). Today Antioch remains the seat of a patriarchate of the Oriental Orthodox churches. One of the canonical Eastern Orthodox churches is still called the Antiochian Orthodox Church, although it moved its headquarters from Antioch to Damascus, Syria, several centuries ago (see list of Patriarchs of Antioch), and its prime bishop retains the title "Patriarch of Antioch," somewhat analogous to the manner in which several Popes, heads of the Roman Catholic Church remained "Bishop of Rome" even while residing in Avignon, France in the 14th century. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tsgrozescu (talk • contribs) 04:44, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

As a state; Armenia was the first to officially adopt Christianity. The information you give indicates Christianity in Antioch but nowhere it states information about it recognizing Christiniaty as a state.Nocturnal781 (talk) 05:43, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

The problem is the whole, overly simplistic, "first state to adopt Christianity" concept. Meowy 16:12, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Help with ungrammatical sentence

I was doing some grammatical cleanup, but since I can't figure out what the following sentence is trying to say, it's hard to fix it. 'In the next centuries Armenia was on the orbit Persian Empire.' Can anyone with knowledge of the subject help fix this one? (it's in the "Antiquity" section) - Special-T (talk) 00:25, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

I've rephrased it. Adrian two (talk) 18:51, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 25 June 2012

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hi there i just found something dont worry i am armenian and my name is Sarkis Aramian. so when you scroll down to the armenian genocide section youll find in the end that you said:about estimated 600,000 Armenians died during the Armenian Genocide in 1915....... but its not 600,000 its 1.000.000 one million and a half.. thanks ..

Sarkisoo (talk) 12:10, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Ryan Vesey Review me! 18:32, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Population is incorrect ... Edit Request August 9, 2012

Please, someone update the population data for the country.

As of June 2012, Armenia has a population of 3,275,700

Reference link: http://www.armstat.am/en/?nid=126&id=11001

Daugvapils (talk) 05:25, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Armenian Genocide

"According to the research conducted by Arnold J. Toynbee an estimated 600,000 Armenians died during the Armenian Genocide in 1915–16."

1.500.000 Armenians, officialy! Check it out! Thanks! Gar!k Avak!an

If you want to be taken seriously, supply a Reliable Source with all the proper information (title, author, publisher, date, page number OR a very reliable website)HammerFilmFan (talk) 01:32, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Timezone abbreviation needs attention

Could someone please change the time zone to read:

AMT (UTC+4)

AMST (UTC+5)

As per List of time zone abbreviations. And also link up the parts like other country pages (e.g. Uruguay)

Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.196.133.253 (talk) 22:16, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Armenia as recorgnized by the EU to be a European Country

Fair notice. I plan to edit out in short order the two cites currently showing as numbers 18 and 19, put there in support of the statement that the European Union considers Armenia to be a part of Europe. Neither cite supports the statement. Armenia is included under the EU's European Neighbourhood Policy (ENP) of 2004——but then so are Tunisia, Morocco, and Egypt, among others. There is no mention by the EU, nor on the EU's behalf, of Armenia (to say nothing of Egypt, Tunisia, etc.) being a European country... only a suggestion of it's being in some fashion in the EU's neighborhood. Bedkt chi ga vor Hyastanè Yevrobagan yergir èlla, garevor èllalu... See also http://ec.europa.eu/world/enp/policy_en.htm Xenophonix (talk) 15:11, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Several EU officials have said that Armenia is an European country and thus has the right to join the EU given certain criterea is met. Armenia is part of Council of Europe while Tunisia, Morocco, and Egypt aren't. It's not crucial that this sentence be included in the article, but nevertheless the sentence was accurate. MosMusy (talk) 18:53, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Border closure situation needs citations and lacks crucial information ... edit request as of 2013-06-07

"...and Armenia's borders with Turkey and Azerbaijan remain closed." This is mentioned twice, and said to have severe detrimental impact [cite needed] on the Armenian economy, because the roadway and railway into Turkey and Azerbaijan are vastly superior [cite needed] to the ones into Iran and Georgia. I'm not disputing the fact that the borders are closed, but additional information is necessary -- at minimum, the phrase "as of 2013[cite needed]" seems to be required. Furthermore, it would be awesome if somebody with actual on-the-ground knowledge of the Armenian economy could provide some info on the following pertinent info: who is closing the borders, i.e. which govt(s)? How tight are the closures, i.e. is there a black market which traffics across them? Cf the USA-Mexico border, which is officially controlled-not-closed but in practice has plenty of black-market crossings for human-trafficking and narcotic- trafficking and so forth. Is there no smuggling in Armenia? Or just 'officially' no smuggling.... Is there a no-man's-land separating the countries, cf the border between north korea and south korea, as an example where smuggling is extremely unlikely to occur, over the land route anyways. What percent of imports and exports (in realdollar terms -- by industry if possible or by generic mfg/ag/svc sectors otherwise) traverse the Iran-Armenia border, and what percent traverse the Georgia-Armenia border? What about air freight, what is the overall percentage, and which international destinations dominate? I have other questions, but this should be enough to get some wikipedia editor possessing the relevant knowledge interested in filling in the gaps, and perhaps correcting the problems I'm pointing out. 69.46.48.134 (talk) 02:06, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Error about Constitution

The President of Armenia is NOT the head of government, he is the head of state. Armenia has a Prime Minister who is dependent upon the legislature, so the system is a parliamentary republic, not a presidential one. It would be good if someone could correct the misstatement in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.110.216.193 (talk) 21:23, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Actually, the system is a semi-presidential system, because while most of the executive power is vested in the Prime Minister, the President does have some significant powers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ZacharyGeorge (talk • contribs) 19:57, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Image missing

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Please remove the missing image YSU-BatimentCentral.jpg (The Yerevan State University) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anthonygerrard (talk • contribs) 21 March 2013

Done: Minor edit only. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 14:25, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes. --SuperArmenian (talk) 14:32, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 17 August 2013

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Hayk.png to be inserted

Հայք

Հայք
Caption2

Chrisveniz with miley (talk) 05:29, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. Assuming you mean File:Hayk.png, where do you want it inserted, and why? Rivertorch (talk) 04:44, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Map request

A request was made on the feedback page (in Armenian) for a more detailed map. My personal opinion is that the current maps are sufficient, but I am transferring the request here for the consideration of those who are more familiar with the subject. —WFC— _{FL wishlist} 21:41, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Suggestion

The Nagorno-Karabakh Republic is in reality part of Armenia.^[1]^[2]^[3]^[4]^[5]

^ Hughes, James (2002). Ethnicity and Territory in the Former Soviet Union: Regions in Conflict (1. publ. ed.). London: Cass. p. 211. ISBN 9780714682105. Indeed, Nagomo- Karabakh is de facto part of Armenia.
^ "Armenia expects Russian support in Karabakh war". Hürriyet Daily News. 20 May 2011. Retrieved 25 June 2013. While internationally recognized as Azerbaijani territory, the enclave has declared itself an independent republic but is administered as a de facto part of Armenia.
^ Central Asia and The Caucasus, Information and Analytical Center, 2009, Issues 55-60, Page 74, "Nagorno-Karabakh became de facto part of Armenia (its quasi-statehood can dupe no one) as a result of aggression."
^ Deutsche Gesellschaft für auswärtige Politik, Internationale Politik, Volume 8, 2007 "...and Nagorno-Karabakh, the disputed territory that is now de facto part of Armenia..."
^ Cornell, Svante (2011). Azerbaijan Since Independence. New York: M.E. Sharpe. p. 135. ISBN 9780765630049. Following the war, the territories that fell under Armenian control, in particular Mountainous Karabakh itself, were slowly integrated into Armenia. Officially, Karabakh and Armenia remain separate political entities, but for most practical matters the two entities are unified.

I suggest that we fix the map of Armenia by adding NKR in light green, similar to the map in Azerbaijan article (which is a GA) as seen on the left. And we can put a caption such as "Location of Armenia. Nagorno-Karabakh, de facto controlled by Armenia, shown in light green." --Երևանցի ^talk 22:02, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Support - Per the reasons stated. The Nagorno-Karabakh Republic operates like as provicne of Armenia and should be considered as such. HouseOfArtaxiad (talk) 16:41, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
Support. See map on Morocco article, which includes unrecognized Western Sahara. Jackal 11:08, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
Support - agree with overmentioned justifications. Хаченци (talk) 11:26, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Lead

See WP:LEAD. "Apart from trivial basic facts, significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article." 4 paragraphs is the reccommended longest length. Dougweller (talk) 06:11, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. (I started moving some of the history, then decided that it would be better done by someone who knows about the history. Any volunteers?) Dbfirs 07:59, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't see what's wrong with the lead. It summarizes the 3-thousand-year Armenian history. --Երևանցի ^talk 17:27, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

There is a lot of history to summarise, but the historical detail would be best in the history section, and there are a few other facts that are not explained in the main body of the article. We don't want to remove information about Armenia, just to put it in the best place in the article. Dbfirs 22:20, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Sure, but the lead must briefly summarize Armenia's history. I simply added what I found necessary. If anyone thinks this or that sentence is redundant for the lead, they are welcome to remove make edits. --Երևանցի ^talk 22:55, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

I think the point being made is that the lead should summarise the article, and not contain additional information about Armenia's history. I don't think any of your information is redundant, just that perhaps some of it might be better placed elsewhere in the article. Dbfirs 23:20, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

"One nation, one culture"

This is not and has never been Armenia's official motto. --Երևանցի ^talk 21:35, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

Advertising banner in middle of page

I've never seen an advertisement on Wikipedia before today, and it is on this page. It is in the middle which is fairly intrusive as well. It does not seem right to put them on a country's page either. dj_ansi (talk) 08:50, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

I requested an admin intervention, since I think that this banner violates wikipedia policy, and is work of some Hacker. Alex2006 (talk) 09:32, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

In the article or this talk page? I can't see one. Maybe a hacked template that's been fixed. Dougweller (talk) 12:45, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I reported it and has has been fixed, thanks! Alex2006 (talk) 08:05, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Great job, that was a quick response time! dj_ansi (talk) 21:21, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Languages

User:AcidSnow keeps adding a questionable source to this article. Since when is Int'l Business Publications a reliable source for such information? I've added a peer-reviewed academic journal, dedicated to Armenia, Georgia and Azerbaijan, which states that more Armenians prefer their children learning English than Russian. How is their data not reliable?

The second issue is that even if Int'l Business Publications is reliable, the source says 94% not 84%. At least take a few second to read the sources you use. --Երևանցի ^talk 22:51, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Why are you putting words in my mouth? I never said your source was unreliable, rather that it "conflicts with the source already provided" as it is a dramatic change. As for the number, my mistake as I meant to change the eight not the ninety. AcidSnow (talk) 23:02, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Let me put it this way. How is a very generalistic country study published by the Int'l Business Publications a reliable source as opposed to a specialized academic journal? --Երևանցի ^talk 23:09, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

What? I don't think you read my last response since I already told you that I never said it was not reliable. AcidSnow (talk) 23:18, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

You seem to have misunderstood my words. All I'm saying is that the generalistic country study published by the Int'l Business Publications cannot be taken seriously, especially when it is in a clear contradiction with an academic journal. Where exactly is that percentage taken from? My source indicates the polling organization: Caucasus Research Resource Centers. Where is that 94% taken from? How can two polls show two very different numbers? --Երևանցի ^talk 23:24, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

That is quite similar for the reason for my original revert, as you removed the 88% and added another source that discuses something quite different from the original one while calling the first "outdated". According to the original article, eighty-eight percent of adults still viewed that their children learning Russian is important; which is also according to the article an increasing percent. This was also done by polls just like yours. Despite this, you removed it, called it "outdated" and added a "journal" that compares the importance of both Russian and English not Russian alone. This makes quite a large difference. I then showed you that the percent did slightly increase (at least according to the book) just like the poll showed in the first article, yet you question the books reliability? The part about where the percent came does raise questions, but I am not sure where it came from exactly. Though I don't think its enough to throw it out. AcidSnow (talk) 00:26, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Once again. Please answer my question. I don't need a lecture. What is the source of that 94%? How is it reliable when its primary source isn't even indicated? --Երևանցի ^talk 01:35, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

AcidSnow, did you actually read what you'd stated after the fact of posting the comment? "... The part about where the percent came does raise questions, but I am not sure where it came from exactly. Though I don't think its enough to throw it out..." (sic). I would take that as being an argument for precisely why it should be thrown out. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:36, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Additions to the Culture section

Under the subheading ‘Culture’, there are modern-day, young internationally-known Armenian musicians, artists, and movie directors which Wikepedia editors have failed to acknowledge so far. This is the portion of the article ‘Armenia’ that needs to be added to. I have decided to briefly explain the biography of well-known Armenian director, writer, and producer Atom Egoyan, as well as list some of the movies he has directed. Furthermore, under the subtitle ‘music’, I would include the singers Inga and Anush, Armen Gondrachyan (also known as Armenchik), and Canadian opera singer Isabel Bayrakdarian. I would provide their brief biographies with pictures, and links to their most famous songs.

Vivig123 (talk) 18:10, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Requested edit April 17 2014

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Wait... What ?! - "was surrounded by hostile countries that forcibly ended its independence in 1920" ??? Is that Correct ?!

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. --ElHef (Meep?) 17:52, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Wrong quote

Quote:

After the death of Vladimir Lenin, Joseph Stalin took the reins of power and began an era of renewed fear and terror for Armenians.^[1]

Actual quote from this page of the book:

Under Stalin the Communist Party of Armenia (CPA) used police terror to strengthen its political hold on the population and suppress all expressions of nationalism. At the height of the Great Terror orchestrated by Stalin in 1936—37, the ranks of CPA leaders and intellectuals were decimated by Lavrenti Beria, political commissar for the Transcaucasian republics.

Stalin's enforced social and economic engineering improved literacy and education and built communications and industrial infrastructures where virtually none had existed in tsarist times. As they emerged from the Stalin era in the 1950s, Armenians were more mobile, better educated, and ready to benefit from the less repressive policies of Stalin's successor, Nikita S. Khrushchev (in power 1953—64). The years of industrialization had promoted an upward social mobility through which peasants became workers; workers became foremen or managers; and managers became party and state officials^[2].

I suggest removing or replacing by actual quote, except for second sentence, which itself needs sources.

MahSim (talk) 08:12, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 May 2014

This edit request to Armenia has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Citation is not provided since 2009, please remove: As with various other ethnic groups who lived in the Soviet Union during Stalin's Great Purge, tens of thousands of Armenians were either executed or deported.^{[citation needed]} MahSim (talk) 08:29, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Done. I am treating this as a good-faith challenge to material that was originally tagged as being uncited nearly 5 years ago. I have no objection to re-adding this statement to the article if it is properly sourced. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 18:00, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

UN Map?

I noticed the addition of this map not long ago:
I haven't seen it on another country's article and, especially with the OCHA logo and the "ARMENIA" heading, feels a bit odd and misplaced. Kentronhayastan (talk) 15:09, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

There is a discussion taking place about it at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Geography#UN_Maps_in_country_infobox. You are welcome to join.Alex2006 (talk) 16:30, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Possible copyright problem

This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. Diannaa (talk) 18:45, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Repetitive usage of the same pic

Hi,

One of the administrators, Alessandro57, reverted my removal of the repetitive image from Armenia site. At his recommendation, I'm re-posting my reason here and provide additional details.

Note that I explained the reason in my original post on Armenia site as well. This image "File:İrəvan qalasının Çar Rusiyası trəfindən alınması.jpg." is the same as on Yerevan site (capital of Armenia) and on Erivan fortress site (the old Yerevan). Note that no other picture repetitively appears in all those sites. I think the administrators should watch for these instances and prevent such cases themselves.

This picture is not of such importance to be represented in all three sites, especially on the country (Armenia) site, unless there is some hidden reason for this. If the goal of the picture is to show old Yerevan fortress, then "File:Erivan1796.jpg" better reflects that reality depicting both the whole fortress, an Armenian church and a Persian mosque. If it is to show the battle between Russians and Persians for Yerevan, then it could stay only on Yerevan site, since there was no much Armenian involvement in this event. Yet, it is clear that it would have been better then to use some painting depicting a battle between Armenians and invaders of their homeland.

Most likely, the reason is for showing that Yerevan had mosques and nothing else, and, therefore, it was a predominantly Muslim city. It is not surprising that there were mosques in the city since the area of modern-day Armenia has been under Persian rule for several centuries. If this is the case, then the picture is misleading, as Muslims, in spite of their large proportion at some point in history, never dominated the city and the existence of numerous Armenian churches in the city in that period is also well-known.

Probably, the administrators should first of all note the origin of this picture file and users who prefer seeing the image in question on all sites related to Armenia.

Regards,

Cyber-Policeman (talk) 21:26, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Population

Whats the official population of Armenia? I keep hearing Armenians claiming its under 1.5 million and the government is lying, yet they provide no source. WTF is going on with the population, demographic trends, and emigration in Armenia? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Melting Pot of Friendship (talk • contribs) 21:24, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Simple Wikipedia source: The World Factbook. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:57, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 November 2014

This edit request to Armenia has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Armenia has also been very successful in chess, winning the World Champion in 2011 and the World Chess Olympiad on three occasions.^[3] 70.65.124.210 (talk) 04:55, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Done Stickee (talk) 05:41, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

References

^ Ronald G. Suny, James Nichol, Darrell L. Slider. Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Georgia. Federal Research Division, Library of Congress. 1995. p.17 and following
^ http://www.marines.mil/Portals/59/Publications/Armenia,%20Azerbaijan,%20and%20Georgia%20Study_1.pdf#75
^ "Chess News – BBC lecture: Armenia, the cleverest nation on earth". ChessBase.com. Retrieved 2010-12-30.

Semi-protected edit request on 19 November 2014

Typo needs to be corrected under CUISINE

Armenian cuisine is as ancient as the history of Armenia, a combination of different tastes and aromas. The food often has quite a distinct smell. Closely related to eastern and Mediterranean cuisine, various spices, vegetables, fish, and fruits combine to present unique dishes. The main characteristics of Armenian cuisine are a reliance on the quality of the ingredients rather than heavily spicing food, the use of herbs, the use of wheat in a variety of forms, of legumes, nuts, and fruit (as a main ingredient as well aa to sour food), and the stuffing of a wide variety of leaves.

Recommend change aa to as.

Done Alex2006 (talk) 14:27, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

lol

location graphic

Looks to me that the square of the location graphic is wrong. It's pointing to an area south of Armenia.

The Letter J (talk) 17:14, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

“After the death of Vladimir Lenin, Joseph Stalin took the reins of power and began an era of renewed fear and terror for Armenians.[57] Armenia was not the scene of any battles in World War II. An estimated 500,000 Armenians (nearly a third of the population) served in the military during the war, and 175,000 died.[58] Fears decreased when Stalin died in 1953 ...“

Such inappropriate subjective emotional statements may not be a part of encyclopedic article. They FEARED. 'til 53, as Stalin dies, fears subsided. Are you sure they feared? No explanation in the article, why Armenians should have feared Stalin. Do english speakers take it just like that? All Armenians apparently just feared because they just feared. Well... From telling of old men and women from former Soviet Union actually none feared Stalin, just Nazi-Germany. And under rule of Stalin soviet people drove this horror off. Just above “Armenians enjoyed a period of relative stability under Soviet rule. They received medicine, food, and other provisions from Moscow, ..“ apparently (well I doubt that all this was made in Moscow, it would be correct to say - they received it from Soviet Union) So, why they have to fear Stalin?

Is it again a sample of manipulative implanting into ones subconsciousness of the aversion to Stalin, Soviet Union, communism and anticapitalism? I propose to revise this part of article and throw out all subjective implants.--84.57.89.92 (talk) 14:22, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Europe?

Armenia is listed as a country in Europe, but according to modern definition, Armenia is entirely within Asia. --Vitzque (talk) 17:30, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Fixed - Thanks for pointing this out, Vitzque. Actually, there's nothing in the lead or body of the article claiming Armenia to be Europe, but there were two categories which were incorrect (Eastern Europe + Countries in Europe). I've removed the categories.

If Armenia is truly not at all in Europe and is not bi-continental, then there is a whole lot more to change in WP than just this, in articles, in categories, in templates. Is there some fact conflict here? Are there reliable sources stating Armenia is entirely in Asia that can be used as justification for all changes--one way or another. Hmains (talk) 03:26, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

There's no argument against its being European by proxy (that's all in the body of the article), but I've yet to find any sources (even going back in history) that places it as being in Europe or considered European. Do you have sources to suggest that it is considered to be Europe? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 06:52, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

I only am pointing out that various items in WP show that Armenia is a bi-continental country, with part of it in the Continent of Europe (as defined somehow or another) as well as in the continent of Asia. I don't do research. Someone can try to figure this out so that WP can be made uniform in its treatment of Armenia in ALL its articles, categories, templates and so on. Hmains (talk) 02:52, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

The following is found in content of this article: "Armenia is also a member of the Council of Europe, maintaining friendly relations with the European Union, especially with its member states such as France and Greece. A 2005 survey reported that 64% of Armenia's population would be in favor of joining the EU.[78] Several Armenian officials have also expressed the desire for their country to eventually become an EU member state,[79] some predicting that it will make an official bid for membership in a few years. In 2004 its forces joined KFOR, a NATO-led international force in Kosovo. It is also an observer member of the Eurasian Economic Community and the Non-Aligned Movement." This makes it appear that Armenia is part of an expanding Europe, regardless of continental definitions. Hmains (talk) 21:26, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm aware of this, Hmains. I know categories can be extremely problematic, but Armenia's affiliations with European bodies are, at this point in time, just that: affiliations. I also recognise that the concept of 'Europe' has been changing with the expansion of the EU, but whether Armenia will become an EU country (and be recognised as being 'Europe' as such) is WP:CRYSTAL until definitive, RS sources can be introduced. Putting the cart before the horses is OR. This would need to be discussed with other neutral editors. It would be appreciated if you would self revert re-adding the Countries in Europe category. Cheers! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 06:09, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I have no interest in this one way or another--I was only pointing out what I found. And I only reverted the changes that I myself made, not the work of anyone else. Feel free to change things as you wish. Hmains (talk) 00:21, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

In all honesty, I don't have a position on the issue. I really only have this article on my watchlist as the result of POV edit warring on all ex-Soviet nation-states (which is the area I do most of my editing in). I simply responded to the observation. Cheers! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 02:14, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

What continent a country is in is a function of geography, not cultural or political affilitations. Armenia is not in Europe, just as New Zealand, the Falkland Islands, and Bermuda are not. For that matter, I find it amusing (perhaps Asians would not) that those who wish to argue that Armenia is in Europe seem to take offense at the idea that Armenia were in Asia. Xenophonix (talk) 17:25, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

This issue has been discussed at length in the past (see the archive about that). Consensus was that Armenia lies geographically in Asia, but it can be defined culturally and politically as belonging to Europe. Alex2006 (talk) 17:31, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Your consensus is not correct as the South Caucasus is realistically in Eastern Europe according to many sources. Please do not provide false information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MELB1110 (talk • contribs) 03:42, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

It Is not located just in Western Asia, this is not accurate and must be changed immediately, it is a breach of impartiality and there is only 2 references provided. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MELB1110 (talk • contribs) 03:47, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Consensus on Wikipedia is that Armenia lies geographically in Western Asia, altough in many respects it is a fully European country. People are welcome to bring reliable scientific sources (i.e Royal Geographical Society, not BBC, RAI, and so on) that show geographical definitions of Europe from which it derives another continental location of Armenia. Alex2006 (talk) 08:41, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't know what nations "MELB1110" thinks modern-day Armenia borders and historically is mostly intertwined with, but its certainly not Great Britain or Germany if that's what you're thinking (as you're trying for some odd reason to push it towards Europe). Its not even partially transcontinental unlike Georgia, Azerbaijan and Turkey. Armenians and Armenia are historically and culturally (save for being Christians) extremely much related to its neighbouring Middle Eastern nations, moreso than any other nations.

Heck, their ethnogenesis lies completely in Eastern Anatolia (from which they got sadly exterminated in the early 20th century)

What on earth exactly is European about Armenia btw? Except that they're Christian? I'm trying to look at it at a socio-historical PoV as well, as that seems the single main issue and reason regarding the fact that MELB1110 brought, this here and wanted to change it.

- LouisAragon (talk) 09:12, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Please don't go off topic. Here we are not discussing whether Armenia can be considered european culturally, in religion or in football. Here we are dealing with a purely geographical concept. consensus here is that geographically Armenia lies fully in Western Asia. The source brought by MELB1110 is not valid, since does not give an alternative definition of the european continent which includes Armenia in Europe, but take the Armenian state, with its political boundaries, and define it as european. Alex2006 (talk) 09:19, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Alex2006, I fully agree with you, just I believe that it is the main concern of MELB1110. ;) Anyway, I'm curious to see more responses from him too. - LouisAragon (talk) 09:33, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't think that there is much to discuss here. There is a refusal to discuss an established consensus, POV pushing, a clear refusal to get the point and the attempt to play dumb other users. Alex2006 (talk) 09:44, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Hey guys, Ok let me get this straight LouisAragon, it seems you have a thing of pushing us as Asian country. Most Armenians would consider themselves NOT Asian and NOT Middle-eastern, we historically originated in the Caucasus and thus the Caucasus is in Europe, if you would like to confirm that, read a few books on Armenians.

I am Armenian as background, so Iam sure most fellow users will understand.

1) To be a member of the COUNCIL OF EUROPE; A COUNTRY MUST BE LOCATED GEOGRAPHICALLY IN EUROPE, ARMENIA IS A MEMBER. 2) WORLDATLAS.COM IS A RELIABLE EDUCATIONAL SOURCE.

Also, Armenians don't look Asian at all and are unrelated to their neighbours what so ever, we are an individual ethnic group. closest related are the Georgians and in other ways Russians. So my source was accurate I don't know why you are degrading us by placing us purely in Asia,

I personally find it offensive. I am sure most people will agree with me.

I will soon change it back to the original format, I will place the same worldatlas.com source, located at the crossroads.

I am sure most users will agree that Armenia can be considered part of Europe via the Caucasus region. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MELB1110 (talk • contribs) 07:38, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

As written above, there is no consensus for this change, and I am fearing that this is becoming a case of WP:NOTGETTINGIT. I will repeat it for a last time: the given source (whose reliability is altogether doubtful) shows a political map of Europe. I repeat that what is needed is a geographical map - published by an institution reliable in physical geography matter - showing physical (mountains, rivers, seas, etc.) borders of the continent defined in such a way that Armenia lies within them. Alex2006 (talk) 08:21, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

MELB1110, neither the geographical origin of Armenians (the European origins of most Australians doesn't mean that Australia is in Europe) nor that they "don't look Asian" whatever that means (how many of these Russians from the Asian city of Vladivostok "look Asian") has any bearing on this. DeCausa (talk) 09:34, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

I am going to have to include it until I find an extra source. In addition, it is a map based on geography, as the Worldatlas.com defines it. The Political and Economic trends are an inclusion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MELB1110 (talk • contribs) 12:19, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Haha, Alessandro57 and LouisAragon, I have to admit, you can place Armenia where ever you want, we will always be part of Europe geographically and in our minds and hearts. Your lack of communication and understanding is disappointing. The lack of professionalism is very bad and upsetting. There is some something you two have against Armenia, by trying to push it into Asia.

Alessandro57 your from another place, why are you even deciding the geography of another country. LouisAragon, I am suspicious of your agenda.

I made myself clear that my background is Armenian, yet you still very rudely and badly keep on downplaying my source as political. Ok then, I will assume this is a motivated negative targeting of a country. Eastern partnership in the European Union is a good example of Armenia being EUROPEAN, GET THE POINT.

I explained my purpose of my source is geographical not just political. Yet you still brazenly and rudely change it back.

I will keep on working on this campaign, in order to bring fairness.

By the way, Armenia is more European than some other European countries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MELB1110 (talk • contribs) 15:15, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 August 2015

This edit request to Armenia has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

85.104.145.8 (talk) 01:55, 7 August 2015 (UTC) TÜRKİYE - AZERBAYCAN . ♥

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Cannolis (talk) 02:27, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 19 September 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Withdrawn. Shhhhwwww!! (talk) 00:33, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

(non-admin closure)

Armenia → Republic of Armenia
Armenia (disambiguation) → Armenia

– No WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. "Armenia" can refer to the Armenian Highlands, Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia, and the Kingdom of Armenia (antiquity). Shhhhwwww!! (talk) 21:32, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Absolutely not BMK (talk) 23:42, 19 September 2015 (UTC)----

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Semi-protected edit request on 19 October 2015

This edit request to Armenia has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Armenia is not listed correctly by its regional location, it is in Transcaucasia- which should be described just the same way as Georgia and Azerbaijan <....of the situated at the crossroads of Eastern Europe and Western Asia, Transcaucasia> such as all the referenced materials do not match what you have listed as located in West Asia. 8.42.24.5 (talk) 16:03, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Not done: One of the referenced materials is the UN, which places Armenia in West Asia Cannolis (talk) 16:25, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Georgia and Azerbaijan are both transcontinental countries, while Armenia is fully placed south of Caucasus watershed, this means in Western Asia (and, BTW, this is what all the main geographical institutions say). Alex2006 (talk) 17:18, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

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Edit-warring over relative country metrics

It is time to stop. Please discuss what countries should be chosen to compare Armenia to with respect to its freedom rating. Any comparison made using a WP:PRIMARYSOURCE is pure WP:OR imo. So I would not make any comparison. But others may have different opinions. Dr. K. 05:01, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

I mentioned Bangladesh and Honduras in the text because their scores were immediately above and below Armenia. I thought that was the most neutral comparison. English-wiki audiences are not familiar with Azerbaijan any more than they are with Honduras, so comparisons of Armenia to Azerbaijan, which has a score far off, didn't serve any useful illustrative purpose other than rubbing it in everyone's face that Armenia is doing better, which is pretty much what the original paragraph said before. Your most recent edit, which removed specific country comparisons altogether, is acceptable and neutral. I have no issues with it.--Damianmx (talk) 15:48, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

Thank you Damian. I understand your points and I can see your rationale is well explained. But I am glad we agree on this version because it avoids any disagreements by not making a choice on relative country metrics. This version also minimises the reason for edit-wars which in itself is a big bonus. Best regards. Dr. K. 16:53, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

I do not agree on "this version" or the other. To make a random comparison between geographically and ethnically unrelated regions is both pointless and OR. You might as well compare apples with oranges. The proper comparison (if there is to be one there at all) is between a country's immediate neighbours. I think there should be such a comparison, since the whole point of the Freedom House rating is that it is a score that compares one country against all others. Reading the content of a source and deriving article content from it is not OR. All the data being used is in the same table, and none of its numbers or ratings are being changed. The "Armenia faces considerable human rights problems" claim remains unreferenced. I ref tagged it, but Damianmx, in keeping with his editing style, deleted it. And if it is to be referenced, it requires additional content attached to it that explains why the source considers "Armenia faces considerable human rights problems". Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:19, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Russian/Eastern Armenia

Please note that this is like the third time in a short period that you change and/or remove well-verifiable content without having done some actual research yourself, and as a result people have to correct and revert you. As its on a repetitive basis, this is clear disruptive editing. The Armenian Oblast was made in 1828 the same year Iran ceded Armenia (Erivan and Nakhchivan Khanates) per the Treaty of Turkmenchay. Therefore, I fail to see from where you got your statement "in the course of the 19th century" from, regarding Eastern Armenia. The soil of the modern-day country of Armenia, which almost entirely overlaps with Eastern Armenia, came in Russian hands by 1828, and theres unfortunately nothing ambiguous about that.

"In 1639, the Iranians and Ottomans ended their long period of hostility and partitioned Armenia. Two thirds of historic Armenia became known as western Armenia or Turkish Armenia, while the remaining one-third became eastern or Persian Armenia. The division lasted for over two centuries, until Russia conquered eastern Armenia and made it Russian Armenia."

Olson, Stuart et al. (1994) 'An Ethnohistorical Dictionary of the Russian and Soviet Empires Greenwood Publishing Group ISBN 978-0313274978 pp 44-45

"1828 -- Russian forces complete occupation of Persian khanate (principality) of Yerevan. Eastern Armenia brought under Russian control. Treaty of Turkmenchay signed between Russia and Iran formally ends second Russo-Persian War and establishes the Arax river as the boundary separating the two countries."

Adalian, Rouben Paul. (2010) Historical Dictionary of Armenia (e.d, 2) Scarecrow Press ISBN 978-0810874503 page XIVI

"Persian Armenia was the last territory to be conquered by the Russians during the Russo-Persian Wars of 1804-1813 and 1826-1828. Immediately following the Treaty of Torkmanchay (1828), the Russians began to set up their administrative apparatus in the region. Although the Persian government, in resposne to article III of that treaty, had submitted their tax records to the victors ... (...)"

Bournoutian, George A. (1980) The population of Persian Armenia prior to and following its annexation to the Russian Empire: 1826-1828 Columbia University page 2

"The shah sued for peace, and the treaty of Turkmenchay was signed in 1828, according to the terms of which the Khanates of Erivan and Nakhijevan were annexed to Russia. Thus Eastern Armenia became part of Russia. (...) The victories against Iran in 1813 and 1828 and the unification of eastern Armenia with Russia (...)""

Hacikyan, Agop Jack et al. (2005) The Heritage of Armenian Literature: From the eighteenth century to modern times. Wayne State University Press ISBN 978-0814332214 page 10

"(...) and disputes over the frontier led to a second war from 1826 to 1828 when, by the Treaty of Turkmenchay, Russia gained the conveted Aras frontier and Iranian Armenia"

Yapp, Malcolm. (2014) The Making of the Modern Near East 1792-1923 Routledge. ISBN 978-1317871071 page 53

Parts of Western Armenia indeed came in Russian hands for some decades through wars with Turkey (amongst which the Kars Oblast), but thats rather irrelevant and undue to this specific article. Eastern Armenia which almost entirely congruates with what is modern-day Armenia didn't switch hands after 1828 until 1991.

If you have any source that proves that Eastern Armenia was still being questioned after 1828 (upon which you "based" your edit here), then feel free to show us. Bests - LouisAragon (talk) 18:45, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

LouisAragon Kars was part of Eastern/Russian Armenia too, and just because it wasn't part of the Treaty of Turkmenchay, doesn't mean it should be neglected and ignored. By doing so, readers can be gravely confused. It's common knowledge that Kars has long been known as Eastern/Russian Armenia. The most reliable source of Armenia's geography proves this. Also, listing treaties in the lead is not really helpful for readers. Even the most important treaties, such as Treaty of Sevres, Treaty of Kars, and Treaty of Alexandropol aren't even mentioned. Treaties, agreements, and border disputes can be perhaps better explained in the body of the paragraph. I don't mind it if you mention the Treaty of Turkmenchay in the body. But when it comes to the lead it really doesn't help the reader, especially when this also includes a misleading detail of what Eastern Armenia is. After all, the understanding of what Eastern/Russian Armenia is not limited to that treaty alone. By the way, my edit-summary was wrong. I meant so say: "Kars is also considered Eastern/Russian Armenia." Étienne Dolet (talk) 19:56, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

I repeat, Kars was only temporarily under Russian rule and as a happening it was of way less significance than what happened in 1828, for the former was simply lost some decades later. Maybe you forget that what comprises the modern-day state of Armenia, is mostly synonymous with what was ceded by the Gulistan (1813) and Turkmenchay (1828) treaties? Per those treaties, that what is modern day Armenia came under Russian rule. It opened a Russian dominated era for about 160 years, until the founding of the modern Armenian state in 1991. Prior to 1828, the soil of what is modern day Armenia was utterly dominated by the dynasties based in Iran for centuries. How come, that a mention of that crucial transition should not be added to the lede of this specific article? Furthermore, regarding your argument about "Kars"; Kars is a fraction of Eastern Armenia. Especially if you look at what swaths of eastern Armenia were permanently ceded per the Gulistan (1813) and Turkmenchay (1828) treaties, it absolutely doesn't match up against it, and it's a rather lousy argument in an attempt to get it removed. Lastly, the Erivan khanate also even comprised a part of Kars, as Kars seems to be your sole argument. Something about the Sevrès treaty should be stated as well I will say, but info regarding the impact of the Turkmenchay treaty (or in general; the Russo-Persian wars) and its/their impact on the history of what is nowadays Armenia simply can not be omitted on this article, as it's too crucial (and no, that's not "WP:POV", for historians agree with that). I don't see how that's confusing (per your rationale) for readers, since people mostly refer to Eastern Armenia prior to 1828 as Persian/Iranian Armenia, and after it as Russian Armenia (see above, Olson, et al (1994).) There's also no rule that states that info regarding treaties is not allowed, which you seem to use as an argument. Nevertheless, we can also link it to the specific war itself, if that's a big "concern".

I will furthermore add that you have shown 0 sources so far that warrant for the removal of that content, yet as of some moments ago you reverted it again. - LouisAragon (talk) 20:38, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

As far as I can see, the lead does have a thing or two about how Persians "utterly (?!) dominated" Armenia for centuries (i.e. ...the traditional Armenian homeland composed of Eastern Armenia and Western Armenia came under rule of the Ottoman and successive Iranian empires, passing between the two over the centuries.) But our understanding of Russian Armenia in 1914, for example, is far more different than our understanding of it as specified in the Treaty of Turkmenchay in 1828. In other words, our grasp of Russian Armenia is not limited to the clauses and articles specified under the Treaty of Turkmenchay. Russian Armenia eventually changed substantially due to geopolitical circumstances throughout the 19th century. So to just limit our understanding of it to just one treaty would be misleading for our readership. Therefore, it's best we leave it out. By the way, Kars is not the only city I'm talking about here. Indeed other cities/towns that came under the Eastern/Russian Armenian dominion include Ardahan, Kağızman, Olti, and etc. The Kars Oblast was 16,473 verst, a pretty large piece of territory considering that the Erivan Governorate was just 27,830. Étienne Dolet (talk) 21:05, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

The problem here is due to the ambiguous and vague border between Western and Eastern Armenias. Kars can be considered part of both. Nowadays, Western Armenia usually refers to formerly Armenian-populated areas of modern Turkey, including Kars. Some might argue that the border lies within the Akhurian and Aras rivers, but Surmali (Igdir and Mt. Ararat, which lie south of Aras) was part of both the Erivan Khanate and Erivan Governorate. Here are several academic sources stating that Kars is considered part of Eastern Armenia:

"Eastern Armenian territories of Kars and Ardahan that were in the Russian Empire since 1878 were returned to the Republic of Turkey"[2]

"the territory of Russian ( Eastern ) Armenia inc luded Kars, Ardahan."[3]

"when Turkey ceded the territories of Kars, Ardahan, and Batum, Russia completed its conquest of Eastern Armenia."[4]

"Mustafa Kemal had the gall to usurp from Eastern Armenia the provinces of Kars and Ardahan."[5]

--Երևանցի ^talk 21:25, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

"Eastern Armenia" (as used as an alternative for "Russian Armenia") is anywhere within historical Armenia that was administered as part of the Russian empire but excluding territory that was temporarily captured by Russia during WW1. I do not think it is correct to use the phrase "Eastern Armenia" to refer to territory of historical Armenia that was controlled by Persia rather than the Ottoman empire. It is all still just "historical Armenia". The point about this defining of "Russian" or "eastern" Armenia is that the Armenian population there was treated very differently (i.e. much better) than Armenians living elsewhere. That difference did not exist when the division was between Persia and Turkey. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 22:16, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 8 May 2016

This edit request to Armenia has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Armenia was founded in 331 BC Jivebop (talk) 14:18, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Cannolis (talk) 14:42, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Geographic location again

About the geographic location of Armenia (we are talking about physical geography), the issue has been discussed many times, and the last thread is at the top of this page: at that time, consensus was that the country lies geographically in Asia. A short summary: the overwhelming majority of the RS in physical geography put the border between Asia and Europe on the watershed of Caucasus (some of them also further north). In order to start a discussion, we need an alternative definition of the physical borders of Europe, and this definition should come from reliable geographical sources (the reliability of the cited web site worldatlas.com has been discussed above). I hope that the terms of the question are clear: we don't need to find sources which put Armenia "in Europe", but reliable sources which give us an alternative physical border of Europe which is scientifically plausible. Thanks, Alex2006 (talk) 19:13, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Interesting that there are very few sources on the Western Asia article that define what this phrase "Western Asia" covers, suggesting that it might be a rather fringe concept. Most of the supposed sources on it are nothing more than examples of its usage, hinting that a lot of the content might be synthesis (or OR, such as its "history"). Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 01:03, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

Sorry if this late resurrection of a thread is opening old wounds and apologies once more if my point has been discussed and and agreed on in previous threads; I haven't checked but I see this thread contains the word "again". I am well aware that Armenia has links to the European states but unlike its neighbours Georgia and Azerbaijan which are both transcontinental, I cannot say I know of any Armenian territory that occupies land that is said to be European. I know that the Eu~rope/Asia borders have been revised many times throughout history especially in the passage between the Caspian Sea and the Black Sea. When stating "countries in Europe", am I right in thinking that Armenia occupies some land that was once classed as Europe? Or are there sociopolitical reasons behind the inclusion? Thanks for any replies. --OJ (talk) 11:44, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

About that you can usefully read the previous discussions in archive, thanks. Alex2006 (talk) 15:19, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Pictures overkill

There are far too many pictures, and all are aligned down the right-hand side.

Pictures on topography and geography are split with pictures of genocide and the soviet army invading ...

Hardly ANY of them line up with the topics they are relevant to.

Maybe some should be removed, others put into drop-downs or at least in a horizontal strip in the section to which they ARE relevant?

Chaosdruid (talk) 13:59, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 December 2016

This edit request to Armenia has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Should be removed that Armenia is in Western Asia. As an informative page, this is going to confuse readers, first off because it's not an Asian people, and second of all Western Asia unanimously in the Western World refers to the Middle East. Armenians don't consider themselves Asians. Eurasia, Caucasus, and crossbed between Europe and Asia is more appropriate. Please fix it if possible. Varj26 (talk) 19:30, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Not done This argument has been discussed at length in the past. You can usefully read this article's archives about that.Alex2006 (talk) 20:30, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

CIA World Factbook is an unreliable source

This CIA source states that Azerbaijan, Georgia, and Kazakhstan fall within both Europe and Asia based on the political map of CIA. Loooking at the CIA map of Europe, I don't see Azerbaijan, Georgia, and Kazakhstan. Based on this, I consider CIA an unreliable source.--Cheetah (talk) 07:48, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Reading the cited source, I see "Armenia and Cyprus, which lie completely in Western Asia". I don't see how there is a contradiction within the CIA Factbook sources. Both the text and the map indicate it is not in Europe. Their website (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/am.html) notes that Armenia thinks of itself as being a part of Europe regardless of geographical location. What you've highlighted does not make the CIA Factbook an unreliable source. Rhialto (talk) 14:36, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

It says: "Azerbaijan, Georgia, and Kazakhstan fall within both Europe and Asia based on the political map of CIA." The map doesn't show it, so they lie about those countries. Now, why should I believe what they say about Armenia when I know for a fact that they lie about other countries.--Cheetah (talk) 01:45, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

As I wrote yesterday, if you contest one source you can (if there is consensus) remove it, not all the others (together with the statement that they support): doing that is disruptive editing. Alex2006 (talk) 17:25, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Maybe it's just me, but I get irritated when someone uses the word "lie" when something might be a mistake. I don't agree with its removal, take it to WP:RSN if you wish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doug Weller (talk • contribs) 18:03, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Full protection

I granted a request for full protection to encourage discussion in the currently ongoing dispute. Please discuss. Samsara 11:13, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Under "Languages", please edit "could be considered as de facto second language" to say "could be considered as a de facto second language" or "could be considered asde facto second language". Either way it needs the article. Thanks. Huw Powell (talk) 04:05, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Done Samsara 11:18, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

In the infobox under "population_estimate", can you please indicate that the figure is found in a table on p. 100 (scrolling through the whole PDF on an extended search only to find the wanted data point buried in a table almost at the very end is fairly annoying), and use {{sigfig}} to indicate that the figure is only given at two significant digits there ("3.0 million")? (waves at human above) --Florian Blaschke (talk) 16:07, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Done Looking at the documentation, the template doesn't seem able to do what you wanted, but I may look into it some more (I can write an appropriate template). This will have to do for now. Samsara 12:07, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Oh, thank you! That looks like a fair solution too. Oh, and a minor squibble, in the caption of the first map below the infobox, "Historical Armenia 150 b.c.", could you change "b.c." to "BC"? That said, maybe change the caption to "Kingdom of Armenia under the Arsacid dynasty, 150 BC" or the like. Thanks in advance! --Florian Blaschke (talk) 19:03, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Armenia vs. Azerbajian

The reason that what is valid for Armenia is not valid for Azerbaijan, is that while Armenia is located south of the watershed of Caucasus (this watershed being defined by the sources which have been removed yesterday from article as part of the boundary between Europe and Asia), some valleys of northern Azerbaijan lie north of the watershed, and this means that Azerbaijan is a transcontinental country. If you don't agree with the definition of Azerbaijan as transcontinental country you can open a thread on that article, but the fact that Armenia is geographically wholly part of western Asia is very well sourced (with or without CIA Factbook). Alex2006 (talk) 17:19, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

I concur with Alessandro57. This talk page section was made on the 14th of December, yet the user in question didn't bother to leave a reply here. A removal of all warnings from his talk page further attests to a battleground mentality and sheer WP:SPA concerns IMHO.[6] I will restore the original sourced content, prior to the instignated edit war. Bests - LouisAragon (talk) 23:22, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Correct. By no known definition is any part of Armenia geographically in Europe. Armenia's cultural link to Europe is purely cultural and political. So that was the issue over which the page has been protected? Sheesh. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 14:01, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

@Alessandro57: How bout we start an RfC for this? Indeed, the consensus can change. Étienne Dolet (talk) 22:13, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

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Armenia's location

There is debate whether Armenia is in Eastern Europe or Western Asia. One thing we can agree on is that it is not in the Middle East, so whoever is vandalizing, please stop. Nowhere on the Middle East Wiki does it show the Caucasus or list any Caucasian countries such as Armenia. Whoever is vandalizing please stop.

As a wiki to educate the public, it confuses readers to say it is in Western Asia. We should just specifically put that Armenia is located in the Caucasus between Europe and Asia. This is the most clear and precise statement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Varj26 (talk • contribs) 03:47, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

[1] Hughes, James (2002). Ethnicity and Territory in the Former Soviet Union: Regions in Conflict (1. publ. ed.). London: Cass. p. 211. ISBN 9780714682105. Indeed, Nagomo- Karabakh is de facto part of Armenia.

[2] "Armenia expects Russian support in Karabakh war". Hürriyet Daily News. 20 May 2011. Retrieved 25 June 2013. While internationally recognized as Azerbaijani territory, the enclave has declared itself an independent republic but is administered as a de facto part of Armenia.

[3] Central Asia and The Caucasus, Information and Analytical Center, 2009, Issues 55-60, Page 74, "Nagorno-Karabakh became de facto part of Armenia (its quasi-statehood can dupe no one) as a result of aggression."

[4] Deutsche Gesellschaft für auswärtige Politik, Internationale Politik, Volume 8, 2007 "...and Nagorno-Karabakh, the disputed territory that is now de facto part of Armenia..."

[5] Cornell, Svante (2011). Azerbaijan Since Independence. New York: M.E. Sharpe. p. 135. ISBN 9780765630049. Following the war, the territories that fell under Armenian control, in particular Mountainous Karabakh itself, were slowly integrated into Armenia. Officially, Karabakh and Armenia remain separate political entities, but for most practical matters the two entities are unified.

[6] Ronald G. Suny, James Nichol, Darrell L. Slider. Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Georgia. Federal Research Division, Library of Congress. 1995. p.17 and following

[7] ttp://www.marines.mil/Portals/59/Publications/Armenia,%20Azerbaijan,%20and%20Georgia%20Study_1.pdf#75

[8] "Chess News – BBC lecture: Armenia, the cleverest nation on earth". ChessBase.com. Retrieved 2010-12-30.

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