Talk:American Dream/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Other parts of the World (section)

This section is ridiculous. The targeted reduction of public housing in Britain and Russia has nothing to do with the so-called American Dream. Who writes this stuff???? The people who live in Britain and Russia are not Americans and they are influenced not one little bit by a vague notion held by some people in a country 10 000 Km away!!!--80.223.105.147 (talk) 23:33, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

people in country xx use the US model of home ownership and call it the "xx Dream". See "The American Dream in Russia: Extrinsic Aspirations and Well-Being in Two Cultures," Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin, (Dec. 1999) vol. 25 no. 12 pp 1509-1524 Rjensen (talk) 04:12, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

The WP article says "Since the fall of Communism in the Soviet Union in 1991, the American Dream has fascinated Russians" and uses the article cited (and which you have repeated above) to justify it. The article is actually available on line at http://psp.sagepub.com/content/25/12/1509.full.pdf+html rather than at the address given, but the only problem I see is that the citation article says nothing of the sort. It's just a comparison of aspirations in America with aspirations in Russia. Sometime they map and sometimes they don't. But there is nothing in that article that says "Since the fall of Communism in the Soviet Union in 1991, the American Dream has fascinated Russians" or anything like it. If I have missed it, then pray tell us all where it is. And where are you getting your text above from? - i.e. the bit where you say "people in country xx use the US model of home ownership and call it the "xx Dream"???? I used to live in England and I live next door to Russia and I stick to my guns that this section is ridiculous. Unless you can come up with a credible citation in line with WP policies, I say that the entire section should be deleted.--80.223.105.147 (talk) 09:36, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

try harder: On Britain: " the American Dream. In the 1980s, Mrs Thatcher tried to create a similar dream." [Michael Poole, Human Resource Management: Origins, developments and critical analyses (1999) Page 159 and many pages there discuss the impact in UK. The Russians call the dream of home ownership on the American model "the Russian dream" says a Russian housing official. In Germany after WW2 "the longing for a better life, more or less identical with the American dream, which also became a German dream" Reiner Pommerin, The American Impact on Postwar Germany (1997) Page 84. Rjensen (talk) 09:51, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Answer the question. You added the text originally which said "Since the fall of Communism in the Soviet Union in 1991, the American Dream has fascinated Russians" but the article you cited does not say this. It is your fantasy.--80.223.105.147 (talk) 10:24, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

And where "did people in country xx use the US model of home ownership and call it the xx Dream" come from?--80.223.105.147 (talk) 10:26, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

it comes from a senior Russian housing official.Rjensen (talk) 10:29, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

No it does not! The article makes no reference to "The American Dream" . the connection between The American Dream and The Russian Dream took place in your head and is not in the citation. The imagination of WP editors is not what makes WP content. Good, solid citations do. And this is not one of them.--80.223.105.147 (talk) 10:41, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

I've lived in Russia for 20 years (and another 15 years in Western Europe) and can assure you that the reference to American-Russian dream in this article, as well as your "arguments" are absolute NONSENSE. One can make exactly the same type of statements and references to "Thai-American Dream" or "Burkina Fasonian-American Dream" based on a couple of phony sources and without any personal knowledge of the reality, but this would not make this person look like an intelligent being. What's the point of making things up?! FYI, in Russia, 80% of the population is fighting for survival and the only "dream" of most is to own an apartment in order to have something constant in life. stahlratte (talk) 05:48, 09 January 2013 (UTC)

(outdent)

And where "did people in country xx use the US model of home ownership and call it the xx Dream" come from? This looks like a note intended to instruct an editor to insert content into the article, which would be most improper. Where did that text come from? --80.223.105.147 (talk) 10:46, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

The Russian housing official made the connection re home ownership = "American dream" => "Russian dream". In the cited article a Russian expert explicitly compared the Russian situation to the American public demand for home ownership in the 1960s (which is called the "American Dream"). ""In the U.S. in the 1960s, the demand for homes came first and the government provided the rest," says Nadezhda Kosareva, president of the Institute of Urban Economics, a research group in Moscow. "In Russia the government is trying to push the idea from above." Rjensen (talk) 10:54, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

The word "America" does not even appear in the article you cited. Have you mistakenly given the wrong citation? I am looking at the article you cited to me which is this one http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_27/b4185007612464.htm --80.223.105.147 (talk) 11:12, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

the term the Russian is quoted as using is "U.S." Rjensen (talk) 11:26, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

You are trying to tell me that she is referring to the "American Dream" when she uses the term U.S.? This the quote

"In the U.S. in the 1960s, the demand for homes came first and the government provided the rest,....In Russia the government is trying to push the idea from above."

This is just saying that in America there was demand for housing and the government provided "the rest" (by which I assume we are supposed to think about loan guarantees vie Fannie and Freddie though she is not explicit) whereas in Russia the government is promoting the idea of home ownership through a marketing blitz (mentioned in an earlier paragraph). She is not referring to mythical concept of "The American Dream" ! The conflation between "The Russian Dream" (which can hardly be said to exist if it needs a marketing blitz) and the "American Dream" (again, not mentioned in the article) is entirely in your head. It is not in the article. This article is nothing to do with "the American Dream" and it certainly does not support the notion in the WP article that says "since the fall of Communism in the Soviet Union in 1991, the American Dream has fascinated Russians".. It is PURE FANTASY ON YOUR PART AND MUST BE REMOVED. If you are insistent that the text stays I will take the matter to dispute resolution in some form. It cannot rest as it is. --80.223.105.147 (talk) 11:50, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

No fantasy at all--The Russian was speaking about popular demand for home ownership in US , which is typically called the "American Dream." The "xx Dream" related to housing is a common trope. For example take Finland: 1) "it is possible to realise the Finnish dream of a house of one's own in the middle of town by a lake." Anna-Maria Åström, et al Memories of my town2004 p 136; 2) "The Finnish dream of a wooden red ochre cottage with garden," [Flash art - Volumes 201-203 - Page 132]; "Relaxed and totally adapted to the landscape it crowns a height above Lake Vittrask outside Helsinki and satisfies in an incomparable way the Finnish dream of 'a cave of wood'" [Modern Norwegian architecture by Christian Norberg-Schulz - 1986 - Page 26]; "The Finnish dream, a woodland home." [ario De Biasi, Gören Erick Stenius. Finlandia (1967) Page 36] Rjensen (talk) 12:39, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, the article was comparing the demand for housing in America (true demand coming from the people) and the Russian policy of trying to create demand by advertising for new housing. This is in complete contrast to the text you added that says that "since the fall of Communism in the Soviet Union in 1991, the American Dream has fascinated Russians" - a claim not all supported by the references. Quite the reverse in fact. There is little demand and the government is trying to persuade people to move out of old housing stock into new through advertising!! Your edit in the article implies that Russians are following an American Dream, but the cites completely refute this.--80.223.105.147 (talk) 13:25, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

(outdent)

And now you have added to the main article this

"The term "American dream" in the broad sense of upward mobility or the narrower goal of private ownership of homes, has been applied in other nations. In West Germany after World War II, says Pommerin, "the most intense motive was the longing for a better life, more or less identical with the American dream, which also became a German dream."[40]"

The first part of this text says that the term the American Dream has been "applied in other countries", but the quote comes from a book source which is talking about aspirations in Germany "for a better life" which the author (a German professor of history writing for an American audience) says is more or less the same as the American Dream. Now it is one thing to state, as the author does, that post war Germans aspire to a better life (as if pre WWII Germans did not do so also!!!) and make this doubly clear to his American audience by equating it to the American Dream. But what your editing does is to say that the American Dream has been applied in other countries, as if the concept was born in America and transplanted into other countries. None of the articles you have cited in this section actually backs up this argument. And I have to say, the bit of stray text that you seem to have posted by accident which says "people in country xx use the US model of home ownership and call it the "xx Dream" seems to indicate that you have been editing from a plan to make the article say something and then seek out citations which might seem like they justify this. The problem is that none of the citations you give lend any credence to this notion. It seems to be in your head and not in the head of the people you cite.--80.223.105.147 (talk) 13:25, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

regarding Germany, Pommerin titles his book The American Impact on Postwar Germany -- an entire book that makes the point about Germans adopting an American outlook (which he explicitly links to "American Dream") thanks to very close contact with Americans. The theme of how the US exported the American dream to other countries is covered in the cited book

Rosenberg, Spreading the American Dream: American Economic and Cultural Expansion 1890-1945 (1982). Rjensen (talk) 23:08, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Pommerin's point was merely descriptive of the aspiration . he does not say it was an imbibed aspiration coming from American culture. The desire for people to have a better life than their parents had or can offer them is pretty universal and it is not new. It is why man has spread out of Africa over the centuries to the far corners of the planet. As for the Rosenberg book, reading the reviews on Amazon, the book seems to be about American trade policy and not the export of an American aspirational concept. I'd be happy to hear a citation from the book if you have one if you want to convince me otherwise. (Be warned though: my local university library has this book in its catalog and I can easily verify it). The entire content of this section of the WP article is without foundation because the very citations you give do not actually support them. You may "wish" that Brits, Russians and Germans are emulating American Values but the simple fact is that the desire to get a better life is not an American dream but a Universal one. And it is much much older than America. --80.223.105.147 (talk) 00:22, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

reading some scholarship would be a good idea. Rosenberg includes business and also religious missionaries, philanthropies, Hollywood, labor unions and government agencies. Businessmen saw their mission, she says (p 22-3) no catering to an elite but reaching the masses in democratic fashion. "they linked mass production, mass marketing, and technological improvement to an enlightened democratic spirit....In the emerging litany of the American dream what historian Daniel Boorstin later termed a "democracy of things" would disprove both Malthus's predictions of scarcity and Marx's of class conflict." It was, she says (p 23) "a vision of global social progress." Rjensen (talk) 07:12, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

The American dream in comparison with other societies cannot be just defined in terms of occupation or income. Defining any possible British equivalent in terms of home ownership while ignoring this aspect in the U.S. when comparing the U.S. to other countries further devalues the potential comparisons between The American Dream and any approximate non-U.S. definition. There is obviously no Russian, German or British Dream but there are similar and overlapping definitions in terms of hopes and ideals in those societies and also in terms of how such ideals manifest. (Mike Benjamin)

In the case of Britain, the ideal of having your own home goes way back and the inter-war period in particular saw a great explosion of houses with modern conveniences, a garden and a garage etc. - the home-maker ideal. The dream for the working class was to own a semi-detached bit of suburbia, catch the train into town, and enjoy the countryside at weekends since at least the late 19th century. In the post-war era the national ideal was for a brave new post-war world where everyone could have an inside toilet and free healthcare, and this itself was an expansion on the Homes For Heroes ideal immediately after the First World War. How much any of this was influenced by the U.S. I can't say but I disagree that it can be easily dismissed and in terms of the 1950's American ideal of having a detached home and 2-car garage its possible to see origins in British suburban ideals of the 19th century (true also of other countries, i.e. the popularity of Das Englische Haus). Even the idea of Americans going west - something more related to settling areas already occupied in respect of the american Dream - has its parallels in the British desire to go to 'the colonies' or America post-independence to strike out and make a living or name for oneself. For the most part this is akin to Americans themselves wishing for a better lifestyle rather than freedoms they don't already have, something that largely distinguished Britain from the huddled masses of Europe. (Michael Benjamin) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.217.200.192 (talk) 22:11, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Literature: American Ideals

The American Dream, and certain American Ideals can go hand in hand. I want to highlight the Literary aspect of America's National Narrative, but stating obvious American Ideals. such as the value of Independence, which can also be a component in the overall feel of the American Dream.Abeat3 (talk) 17:06, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Where did Mark Twain go?

I had recently added a section under Literature about Mark Twain, and it had gotten removed right away. Was there a reason for this, or something that could have been improved? The Mark Twain section was a start to the various authors I planned on adding to fill the gap in the Literature section. I feel as if the Literature section can be expanded upon, which is why I was going to add specific works and authors that illuminate the American Dream.Abeat3 (talk) 19:09, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

wisecrack by Richard Wilkinson,

The wisecrack by Richard Wilkinson--"if Americans want to live the American dream, they should go to Denmark!"-- was an ad-lib in an oral presentation and fails all the criteria for published reliable sources. But more important it is also heavy-handed POV not related to the American Dream. He measures perfect mobility = parents can have zero impact on their children's life chances. But in USA parents do have a measurable impact in terms of getting them opportunities to advance, eg through $$$ education that hardly exists in Denmark (Denmark lacks private schools like Harvard and Stanford or private prep schools like Groton ). That part is not controversial. What is controversial is Wilkinson assuming that the American dream means parents should have zero impact on their children's life chances. Wilkinson never tries to support that assumption and it does not appear in the main studies of the American Dream. More generally Wilkinson is a polemicist for more equality rather than more opportunity. If parents can send their kids to Yale that produces more inequality and Wilkinson says that is very bad. Maybe so, but it is not part of the American Dream and therefore does not fit in this article. Here is some evidence that the American Dream includes promoting opportunity for your children: 1) "This was one of the most salient features of the interview data: parents—regardless of background—relied heavily on the American Dream to understand the possibilities for children, especially their own children." [in Heather Beth Johnson (2014). American Dream and Power Wealth. Routledge. p. 43.] 2) " The hopes and optimism that Americans possess pertain not only to their own lives, but to their children's lives as well. A fundamental aspect of the American Dream has always been the expectation that the next geration should do better than the preevious generation." [in Mark Robert Rank, PhD; et al. (2014). Chasing the American Dream: Understanding What Shapes Our Fortunes. Oxford UP. p. 61. {{cite book}}: Explicit use of et al. in: |author= (help)] Rjensen (talk) 01:00, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Mobility misinterpretation

Regarding this addition:

The most recent research (completed in 2014), shows that the US now provides the least economic mobility among developed nations worldwide[Science] and that the American Dream is an illusion.[Foreign Affairs]

The Science source states "among a set of 13 OECD member countries for which consistent data are available [...] the United States has both the lowest mobility and highest inequality among all wealthy democratic countries." That is confusingly worded, but it apparently does not mean that the United States has the least mobility alone, but very low mobility and the highest inequality. As shown in Figure 5, the United Kingdom and Italy have slightly lower mobility. The source cited by Science (published in 2013, not 2014) confirms this. The other problem with this sentence is that the American Dream is an illusion, sourced to Foreign Affairs, has nothing to do with the 2013 research. Foreign Affairs actually claims that "the United States is not exceptional in its rates of social mobility" and that social mobility rates are "no higher in societies like Sweden," which directly contradicts the 2013 research. I would just remove the clause from Foreign Affairs, or move it to another section. KateWishing (talk) 14:47, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 November 2015

Under the literature section suggest changing "The term is used in popular discourse" to "The concept is used in popular discourse." The reason for the change is that the term itself was first was coined in 1931. The term "american dream" does not appear in the three pre-1931 works used in the paragraph to demonstrate the term's lineage: Benjamin Franklin's Autobiography, Huckleberry Finn, and My Antonia. These works express the concepts, but do not use the term itself. Soldier Cynic (talk) 14:27, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

Done Stickee (talk) 01:04, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

As known america has many individuals who have dreams. Dreams the will help to improve a life. It could be their own or someone else's, but maybe that change could be for better or for worse. Do any of you readers have a dream? Maybe as that dream improves,develops,enhances, promotes, reforms, all in all makes your life better, it can demote, deteriorate, diminish, hinder, retrogress, and all in all worsen another persons life. This does not happen every time but it does happen sometimes. (Written By: Katherine G. Wilches Portoreal)Cutiek101 (talk) 02:02, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

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No "Criticism" section?

There should be another section about this topic. However, there's not one at the moment. Should sources criticizing the concept be used for inclusion? --George Ho (talk) 18:51, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

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About work

I have been worked at my city for a long time bur I don't get a rich man and from my city no one can improve my dreams i hope so someone else listen to me and show me the one way to work from USA because there are my child dream . I want to improve my skills from usa im hearing that from the Usa everything is available for one person that about respect of city please let me find my dream from usa . Shkar eizat from iraq -kurdistan Shkar eizat (talk) 13:52, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Prof. Sachs not free-market?

Mr. Sachs is listed as being a Keynesian in the article for this subject. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Sachs. This page classified him as "free-market." Keynesianism advocates extensive government intervention in the market and the ability of government to "manage" the economy more successfully than the market itself in many aspects, which is a good distance from the concept of the free-market. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.228.174.182 (talk) 20:22, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Realization of the Dream

This page aught to include more info on the attainability and contemporary views of the american dream. Median wages have been stagnant for decades (https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us-workers-real-wages-have-barely-budged-for-decades/), and while I don't have a cite for this, the modern political climate seems to suggest that very many Americans think the American Dream is a lie. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ctgodfrey (talk • contribs) 22:58, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Notable Citations

Some uses of the phrase seem sincere and others seem to be political or marketing campaigns. It would be nice to have a table of the First Citation of the phrase being used to represent various different objectives. And perhaps summaries of major campaigns to [re]define the phrase. DKEdwards (talk) 19:42, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 18 May 2020

Citation 25 is broken (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Dream#cite_ref-Greider_25-0). The correct link is now: https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/future-american-dream/. Additionally, it looks like the retrieval date is wrong (year is 20205). Bladvass (talk) 15:25, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

 Done RandomCanadian (talk | contribs) 18:55, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Literary commentary section

This section includes some irrelevant material, i.e. stuff that isn't about literary commentary:

• A lot of people follow the American Dream to achieve a greater chance of becoming rich. Some posit that the ease of achieving the American Dream changes with technological advances, availability of infrastructure and information, government regulations, state of the economy, and with the evolving cultural values of American demographics.

Hughjonesd (talk) 08:49, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Edit request November 26 2020

The quote and reference to Paul Ehrlich is completely irrelevant and should be deleted: According to biologist Paul R. Ehrlich, "If everyone consumed resources at the US level, you will need another four or five Earths."[89]2601:600:8180:FE30:BC9A:5EEE:5DB1:AF39 (talk) 05:30, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Agreed and I dropped it. Rjensen (talk) 05:51, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Incorrect spelling

Hello. The "dream" of the American dream is written in small letters.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/american-dream MoriRo (talk) 07:15, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

"Land of opportunity" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Land of opportunity. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 August 17#Land of opportunity until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. ~~~~
User:1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 09:49, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

The American Dream has ended in 1991.

News flash: The American Dream ended, denigrated, burned to ash, dead ever since the 1990s. Prove is in the form of many historical events that occurred for the last 30 years. BLM and Antifa have distorted the rights of the average American citizen. Families status in the mid to low class have given up on a hopeless dream... Cont. In Talk Galefuun (talk) 23:02, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Hey! any sources? This seems like a opinionated agressive peace. The wikipedia talk section is for discussion of specific topics within the wikipedia article, not stating your opinion on a certian topic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 40.137.224.226 (talk) 20:41, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 4 January 2021 and 19 March 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Tsweeney617. Peer reviewers: Audkal, Cam Hist.

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Semi-protected edit request on 17 October 2022

Suggested citation for the John Adams Turlow quote that states that it needs a citation: Adams, James Truslow. The Epic of America. 2017. 1st ed., Taylor and Francis, 2017, https://www.perlego.com/book/1557705/the-epic-of-america-pdf. Hcholland (talk) 04:02, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks but needs evidence of the page number for the quote. Rollo (talk) 22:20, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

"Tenants" should be "tenets."

In the third paragraph. Please fix. 2600:1702:3C1:1630:EC1A:AF31:931:6942 (talk) 18:54, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

NPOV Dispute

I feel like this is coming from a pro-American perspective, so it doesn't seem so neutral. 2601:19C:4A0E:81F:7DF8:600B:B700:E8AB (talk) 16:23, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Fall 2023 HIST 401

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 8 September 2023 and 14 December 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Wcuev001, ProfLunaTalks, Osa401 (article contribs).

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