Talk:Air Serbia/Archive 1
This is an archive of past discussions about Air Serbia. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Merge to Jat Airways
no consensus to merge
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It's stated at Jat Airways that this carrier was renamed Air Serbia. If this is correct, I don't see the need for having two separate articles dealing with the same topic.--Jetstreamer Talk 12:43, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
Брише се: AKCIONARSKO DRUŠTVO ZA VAZDUŠNI SAOBRAĆAJ JAT AIRWAYS AD BEOGRAD (NOVI BEOGRAD) Уписује се: Akcionarsko društvo za vazdušni saobraćaj Air SERBIA Beograd Промена скраћеног пословног имена: Брише се: JAT AIRWAYS AD BEOGRAD Уписује се: Air SERBIA a.d. Beograd " Translated, this is: "Change of business name: Deleted: AKCIONARSKO DRUŠTVO ZA VAZDUŠNI SAOBRAĆAJ JAT AIRWAYS AD BEOGRAD (NOVI BEOGRAD) (CORPORATION FOR AIR TRANSPORTATION JAT AIRWAYS AD BELGRADE (NEW BELGRADE)) Inserted: Akcionarsko društvo za vazdušni saobraćaj Air SERBIA Beograd (Corporation for Air Transportation Air SERBIA Belgrade) Change of shortened bussiness name: Deleted: JAT AIRWAYS AD BEOGRAD Inserted: Air SERBIA a.d. Beograd " Everything else (company registration number, date of registration, etc.) has remained the same. Jat Airways and Air Serbia are in all respects legally the same company. It should be noted that this is not the first name change: Jat Airways was previously "Jugoslovenski aerotransport" branded in English as "JAT Yugoslav Airlines". This first name change occured in 2003 or 2004 (I don't remember exactly).
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Addition of improper sources
This is the second time I revert ([2], [3]) IP additions of references that are not related to the article ([4], [5]). The sources added do not mention Air Serbia, and the IP readding them does not provide any explanation in the edit summaries. Can you, the author of these edits, stop doing that or explain the reasons for the inclusion of these references?--Jetstreamer Talk 16:13, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
- I know what you mean, I've had to revert the same edit on Jat Airways several times. If it keeps up we might need a temp lock for I.P. editors. Buttons (talk) 19:05, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
- Seems to have stopped.--Jetstreamer Talk 01:17, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
Unsourced claims removed
I have reverted a number of IP edits that littered the article with unsourced claims. WP:VERIFY applies.--Jetstreamer Talk 11:20, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
- Just one thing - Moscow is not new route, they are just changing the airport... --Strower (talk) 14:21, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
Fleet and configuration
A lot of unregistered users appear to be adding information in relation to the proposed fleet, for example stating A319s are "enhanced" or with winglets. Also, there is information on the aircraft configuration which does not appear to be physically possible in light of Etihad's configuration of 60 inches pitch in business and 32 inch pitch in economy (which James Hogan has confirmed will be shared with Air Serbia). Etihad's A319s have 16 in business and 84 in economy. Someone inserted that the A319s will have 8 business and 138 economy seats which is just not possible with a 32 inch pitch Economy (as Air Serbia will share Etihad). At most, I think that they will only be able to fit 108 seats in economy on the A319 if they rip out two rows of business class from Etihad's planes to reduce business class to 8 seats. I suggest that the aircraft configuration data be deleted until such time as Air Serbia announces its plans or the seats are actually bookeable/viewable in airline reservation systems.
We also have no idea how they will configure their ATR72s, will they keep JAT's current configuration. I don't think anyone knows.Aeroput (talk) 03:08, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
Codes
Why has an editor removed the codes JU and JAT they will remain with Air Serbia. 139.190.138.225 (talk) 09:13, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
Missleading article - no new company; just a new ownership structure and rebranding
The current version of the article, stating that:
"Air Serbia is the new national flag carrier of Serbia. It will replace Jat Airways, whose operations will be transferred to the company after a transitional period, starting from October 2013. Air Serbia will be based at Belgrade Nikola Tesla Airport"
is missleading and not correct, since there will be no legal nor pracital founding of a new company. Rather then that, Jat Airways is a joint stock company,that will be rebranded as Air Serbia, but remain the same company in the sense of public registers and international agreements. There will be no new company, thewe will just be a new name and appearance.
Also to put it clear: Jat Airways (and Air Serbia) is not a flag carrier of Serbia, since it´s not a "javno preduzece" since 2003 when it was transformed in a classical joint stock company. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.246.2.61 (talk) 19:23, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
- Comment - I completely disagree with your assertions. The most recent statement by Etihad and Air Serbia management suggests suggests that the yet to be formed Air Serbia is seeking a transfer of JAT's Air Operator's Certificate (AOC). You don't need to transfer this if you are changing your name only as was the case in 2003 when JAT Jugoslovenski Aerotransport AD become JAT Airways AD. As I have said before, let us wait until details of the transition are released before making broad sweeping statements around the legal continuity of JAT. Secondly, whether or not a company is "flag carrier" does not depend on it being classified as a Javno Preduzece (JP) or Akcionarsko Drustvo (AD). These are Serbian specific legals only. No one would dispute that Air France is the flag carrier of France even though it is a listed public company. If your assertions are true, then JAT would have ceased being flag carrier in January 1992 when JAT was transformed from a JP to an AD. The only change in 2003 was to its legal name only not company form. Have a look at Serbian company register and see for yourself. JAT's traffic rights are not written into international agreements but rather they all stipulate "the designated carrier of Serbia". Accordingly, the Republic of Serbia is free to designate any airline as its designated carrier and this does not need to be JAT.Aeroput (talk) 23:53, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
JAT was transformed to an AD not before the 2003 - after the constitutional restructuring of Serbian and Montenegrin Union. The fact that you "dissagree" on something, does not give you a right to rewrite the article just to fit it to your speculations. If the new company is formed, how do you explain that all JAT employees that do not accept the social programm will remain in the (which?) company? If new company is formed, it would mean that all employees have to sign a new working contract and de facto change their employment. Etihad spoke just about the REBRANDING. Just finde it difficult to accept that destructive instinct of Serbian people. They find some strange joy in letting the thinks go down, dessapear and be eliminated. Every normal nation would be proud to have a 90 years coninuity in aviation bussines. Only Serbs find it cool to cut the tradition, and if it is not cut for real, than lets cut it in wikipedia!
If Etihad has bought "49%" it can only mean that they have bought a 49% of JAT, cause there is no "buying" when founding a new company.
"Hogan’s address in Australia came just days after Etihad Airways announced a historic deal with the Government of Serbia to buy 49 percent of Air Serbia, the country’s rebranded national airline, and a five-year management contract to run it." http://mb.com.ph/Business/Shipping/27987/Etihad_credits_success_to_%E2%80%98rewriting_airline_rulebook%E2%80%99
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.246.2.173 (talk) 13:59, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
- Comment - I don't know where you are getting your information but if you can read Serbian I suggest you go the Agencija za Privredne Registre website.
The transformation of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to the State Union of Serbia and Montenegro did not affect JAT's company status. Your statements are not based on any verifiable statements.
You are also quoting secondary sources rather than primary documents which go against what you are saying. Etihad has not bought 49% of Jat Airways AD. If it did, then the Serbian company register located at the Agencija za Privredne registre would confirm this (which it doesn't.Aeroput (talk) 12:21, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
- Comment You cannot find information about corporate shareholders (owners of an "A.D.") in the APR (Serbian company register). APR only has this data for LLCs ("d.o.o" companies).Andrijapfc (talk) 23:30, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
Just answer the simple question: did Etihad buy 49% of something? Or do you find any news, document, announcment when they talk about founding a new company with the 49% participation. JAT Yugoslav airlines has changded the name into Jat Airways and status from "j.p." to "a.d." in 2003 after in the place of Yugopslavia the states union Serbia and Montenengro was introduced. The 1992 date is connceted with the administrative establishment of new register. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.246.2.59 (talk) 17:34, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
- I've provided more evidence that this is just a rebranding.--Jetstreamer Talk 12:42, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
- Comment Again from the Serbian company register: An official document of the shareholder's assembly of Jat Airways, proclaiming changes to the company's statute, explicitly stating that the company is being renamed from "Jat Airways" into "Air Serbia".Andrijapfc (talk) 23:27, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- Comment isnt it like the Emirates and Air Lanka deal in 1995, where Emirates took took 49% stake in that carrier and rebranded it to Sri Lankan Airlines? 175.110.230.50 (talk) 22:53, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
Missleading introduction and article
http://www.airserbia.com/en/home/main_menu/about_us/history/major_achievements.html It´s difficult to believe that some people are here still keeping the completely wrong and missleading information, that Air Serbia will be new company. It will be Jat Airways with new name. Latest government statement:
- Komisija za zaštitu konkurencije trebalo bi do kraja ove nedelje da izda saglasnost na sporazum o strateškom partnerstvu sa “Etihadom”, odnosno na transakciju kojom će nacionalna aviokompanija Ujedinjenih Arapskih Emirata sa 49 odsto postati suvlasnik “Jat ervejza”, rekao je za Novosti Siniša Mali. (novosti.com) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.246.2.173 (talk) 13:55, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
- Website has also gone back to jatairways.com after a short stint as air-Serbia.com.139.190.138.225 (talk) 20:05, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
- Straight from the horses mouth, its just Jat Airways rebranded, so Air Serbia is clearly NOT a new airline, the evidence here.175.110.230.50 (talk) 02:17, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- Website has also gone back to jatairways.com after a short stint as air-Serbia.com.139.190.138.225 (talk) 20:05, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
Stylizing
The Air Serbia logo and aircraft livery are stylized as AirSERBIA, as seen in such examples as Air France and Air Berlin. The IP editor(s) who keeps reverting this needs to make peace with that fact before this article is semi-protected again. Buttons (talk) 21:29, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
- Its sily to have the stylized as bit in any airline article, its just branding, what next you will mention, typeface used? infact airline articles should not even be titled as the airlines are branded, why is article title flydubai when it should be Fly Dubai, why should article mention Fly Dubai stylized as flydubai, when its totally meaningless to the article, so Air Serbia is written is a stylized form on the aircraft, what does it have to do with the article discussing the company? 175.110.230.50 (talk) 02:13, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- Its not silly or meaningless because that is how these companies choose to present their brand. If it did not matter to them, they wouldn't bother having them in the first place. I don't know where you got the idea that articles are titled as they are branded, because they're not. Air Serbia, Air France, Air Berlin, etc. are all titled as per their legal names but they choose to present their brand (through logos, liveries, etc.) in a certain fashion separate from that of a standard text. The manner in which a company presents itself is absolutely relevant to an encyclopedic article dedicated to it. Buttons (talk) 04:41, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- My point is its irrelevant to an encyclopedia article how an airline writes its name in branding, maybe a seprate section dealing with branding should be created to discuss the whole look not just the name, actually there was such but it was merged in history, as for article titles being written in branding style, there are a few, just because the ones you named are not that way doesn't mean there aren't others, I just gave one example. 175.110.230.50 (talk) 13:03, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- I don't understand, you say its irrelevant to the article but then suggest committing a whole section to it? I don't see your logic when there's not enough information to warrant a whole separate section. Its a short mention how the airline appears to the naked-eye through their logo/livery. I'm not aware of any article titled as it is branded (PayPal maybe?) but if there are, I'm sure there is a reason for it. But as far as Air Serbia is concerned there is a difference in its legal name and brand style which warrants a small mention. What harm can it possibly do? Buttons (talk) 00:23, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
- My point is its irrelevant to an encyclopedia article how an airline writes its name in branding, maybe a seprate section dealing with branding should be created to discuss the whole look not just the name, actually there was such but it was merged in history, as for article titles being written in branding style, there are a few, just because the ones you named are not that way doesn't mean there aren't others, I just gave one example. 175.110.230.50 (talk) 13:03, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- You must be new to Wikipedia that is why you are unaware that some airline articles are titled according to their branding style airBaltic is one more for you incase reference to flydubai went unannoticed, there are others as well, also that some airline articles have dedicated a whole section to branding/livery and with extensive information covering several paragraphs in some cases. Mentioning how an airline applies its title in branding in an encyclopedia while no other aspect of the branding is discussed along side it, is unecessay and silly, its as nonsensical as people who used to post aircraft types used on routes, entire routings with stop overs and frequencies, destinations served from each airport all in the destinations section and some trivia like previous operators of the aircraft in fleet section. 175.110.230.50 (talk) 20:49, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
- No, definitely not new to Wikipedia. Been here since 2007. I just don't know all of the hundreds/thousands of airline articles on here to know how each is titled. Your AirBaltic example works against your point since the lower case 'A' is only presented on its logo and livery while not the title. Its even mentioned that it is stylized as airBaltic. As for separate sections on livery's, yes, obviously those exist and can be quite in-depth, but "stylizing" in most cases that I've seen, only refer to the name of the airline, not the various shapes and colors a fuselage may have. Main point being, this is not unique to Air Serbia, since its quite common on airline articles. So if you really feel that strongly, I would suggest starting a discussion on WikiProject Aviation to try and get a greater consensus whether it should/should not be included. Buttons (talk) 03:23, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
- AirBaltic title on wiki used to be airBaltic, it should be Air Baltic actually, no need to start a discussion on a section for livery it exists for some airlines you can add it if you like, there was one here but someone merged it with history section. My point is its really not necessary to title articles as branding nor mention how an airlines name is stylized in an encyclopedia, the logo/title combo image on the right hand side of the page is sufficient to conclude that. 175.110.230.50 (talk) 22:33, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
- No, definitely not new to Wikipedia. Been here since 2007. I just don't know all of the hundreds/thousands of airline articles on here to know how each is titled. Your AirBaltic example works against your point since the lower case 'A' is only presented on its logo and livery while not the title. Its even mentioned that it is stylized as airBaltic. As for separate sections on livery's, yes, obviously those exist and can be quite in-depth, but "stylizing" in most cases that I've seen, only refer to the name of the airline, not the various shapes and colors a fuselage may have. Main point being, this is not unique to Air Serbia, since its quite common on airline articles. So if you really feel that strongly, I would suggest starting a discussion on WikiProject Aviation to try and get a greater consensus whether it should/should not be included. Buttons (talk) 03:23, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
- Its not silly or meaningless because that is how these companies choose to present their brand. If it did not matter to them, they wouldn't bother having them in the first place. I don't know where you got the idea that articles are titled as they are branded, because they're not. Air Serbia, Air France, Air Berlin, etc. are all titled as per their legal names but they choose to present their brand (through logos, liveries, etc.) in a certain fashion separate from that of a standard text. The manner in which a company presents itself is absolutely relevant to an encyclopedic article dedicated to it. Buttons (talk) 04:41, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
Leased A320s
An editor keeps adding unsourced information that the two A320s that will be temporary leased from March will be Sharkleted versions, none of the sources support this. If anybody has a reliable reference that the two leased A320s will be sharklet equipped when delivered from this March then we can change the article, thanks. MilborneOne (talk) 19:47, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
Callsign
Someone keeps changing the callsign to "Air Serbia". This is wrong, the callsign to which pilots speak on the radio with is still "Jat". So when the pilots speak to the ATC, you will hear, e.g. "Jat 380", not "Air Serbia 380". Please stop changing it!!! Adrijan Pekovic (talk) 08:59, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- Agree I cant see any evidence that the callsign has changed from "JAT". MilborneOne (talk) 17:27, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- Since someone changed it again, I took the extra step further to prove it is still "JAT". Here is the audio archive from liveatc.net, LGAV approach recorded on May 13th, 2014 at 1200Z: http://archive-server.liveatc.net/lgav/LGAV-May-13-2014-1200Z.mp3
- If you scroll to 12:05 in the audio archive, you will see that the controller makes the call to "JAT512" as "Jat five-one-two". This was flight JAT512 from Belgrade to Athens. Adrijan Pekovic (talk) 08:56, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
- With the new ICAO code change, they have changed the callsign too. You can hear it in the following liveatc archive, EHAM tower recorded on June 14th, 2014 at 0630Z: http://archive-server.liveatc.net/eham/EHAM-Twr-Jun-14-2014-0630Z.mp3
- It's on approximately 20:00 in the archive, the pilot says "Schiphol Tower, Air Serbia 360, good morning, 36R." Adrijan Pekovic (talk) 09:06, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
Some moron deleting registrations
There is some moron (or morons) deleting registrations that some users were so kind to source for us, and that matter so much for us, aviation enthusiasts. Those codes are just supplementary informations and don't conflict in any way with the rest of the article. I see those trolls doing that only on Air Serbia page, while on other airlines all the notes are normally accepted. I kindly call upon you to stop such practices or you're gonna receive a few slaps. Thanks for your understanding. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.92.198.123 (talk) 14:38, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
- I see that your have been reminded a few times about being civil, if you still dont understand how to behave on wikipedia then a read of WP:CIVIL may be of some help. First this is not an enthusiast web page (plenty of web sites exist for such airline fans) but an encyclopedia and we dont list registrations unless they are notable for some reason. The aviation project has a little essay at Wikipedia:WikiProject Aviation/Registrations to explain the current consensus. You seem to think that this article is being treated differently but I can assure you it is not. So unless you can explain why individual aircraft registrations are notable in some way then they will be removed again. MilborneOne (talk) 15:54, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
- Removed again. WP:AIRLINE-FLEET-CONTENT applies.--Jetstreamer Talk 18:41, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
- Registrations have been removed again ([6]). The rationale is provided right above; this is an encyclopedia, not a fan site. Next time I will request protection of the page.--Jetstreamer Talk 10:11, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you MilborneOne and Jetstreamer for stepping in and appliying policy. I can just imagine how an American Airlines article would look like if we add all registrations of all their planes. What that IP was doing I think it was in good faith, but his continuos refusal to understand wp policies and his agressive tone has been disruptive. I hope this article will have some peace now, without such a minor unecessary disputes such as plane registrations. Cheers. FkpCascais (talk) 14:08, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
- @FkpCascais and MilborneOne: Requested page protection given the refusal to discuss the matter here. I won't revert again.--Jetstreamer Talk 02:19, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you MilborneOne and Jetstreamer for stepping in and appliying policy. I can just imagine how an American Airlines article would look like if we add all registrations of all their planes. What that IP was doing I think it was in good faith, but his continuos refusal to understand wp policies and his agressive tone has been disruptive. I hope this article will have some peace now, without such a minor unecessary disputes such as plane registrations. Cheers. FkpCascais (talk) 14:08, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
- Registrations have been removed again ([6]). The rationale is provided right above; this is an encyclopedia, not a fan site. Next time I will request protection of the page.--Jetstreamer Talk 10:11, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
- Removed again. WP:AIRLINE-FLEET-CONTENT applies.--Jetstreamer Talk 18:41, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
The unencyclopedic informationin in the fleet table has been removed by an IP. Thanks to them. I made up my mind on protecting the page. The linked edit couldn't have been possible if the page was protected.--Jetstreamer Talk 10:56, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
Unreliable sources
This is the last edit from a set of them ([7], [8]) that have removed unreliable sources from the fleet table. The next time they are re-added I will request protection of the page. Please discuss the matter here before re-adding. Furthermore, it is expected for everyone to read the edits summaries. Thanks.--Jetstreamer Talk 10:59, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
- The addition of unreliable sources continues ([9]). Will request protection of the page.--Jetstreamer Talk 16:52, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- The addition of unreliable sources keeps going. Still waiting for the page to be protected.--Jetstreamer Talk 19:13, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- The article was protected for a while and after it became unprotected the addition of sources either not supporting the claims or directly not reliable keep going. There are no signs of discussing the matter here. Will request protection again the next time these sources are re-added without prior discussions here.--Jetstreamer Talk 22:05, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
- Requested protection again after this alteration with no sources supporting the changes.--Jetstreamer Talk 23:48, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
- The article was protected for a while and after it became unprotected the addition of sources either not supporting the claims or directly not reliable keep going. There are no signs of discussing the matter here. Will request protection again the next time these sources are re-added without prior discussions here.--Jetstreamer Talk 22:05, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
- The addition of unreliable sources keeps going. Still waiting for the page to be protected.--Jetstreamer Talk 19:13, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
Planespotters
I have reverted the additions made by 92.60.225.225 (talk · contribs) ([10]) 92.60.225.71 (talk · contribs) ([11]). Planespotters.net is not considered a reliable source so please stop using it as a reference. Please discuss here the way to deal with the fleet table before re-adding this source.--Jetstreamer Talk 10:27, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- I'm requesting protection of the article again following the reversion of this edit, which introduced a source that does not support the claim it supposed to.--Jetstreamer Talk 10:46, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
Orders in infobox
Today, I've reverted 95.180.123.154's addition of orders in the infobox twice ([12], [13]). These lines are the previous step to requesting protection of the article again, as the IP is seemingly ignoring the messages and edit summaries left by others. For the record, {{airline infobox}} discourages the inclusion of orders in infoboxes. The next time orders are added to the infobox withour discussing the matter here in any way I'll be requesting the page to be protected again.--Jetstreamer Talk 22:08, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
- Yet another reversion ([14]. Seemingly no intentions to discuss here.--Jetstreamer Talk 19:48, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
- Reverted once again ([15]). Please note that this edit led to the IP being blocked for one week. After this the very same edit continued with no further discussions here and no edit summaries.--Jetstreamer Talk 16:41, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
- ...and once again ([16]). Reporting IP at WP:ANI.--Jetstreamer Talk 00:24, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
- More of the same in the last days: [17], [18]. These have been reverted. Reporting to WP:AIV.--Jetstreamer Talk 13:32, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- 95.180.123.154 (talk · contribs) has been blocked.--Jetstreamer Talk 16:26, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- More of the same in the last days: [17], [18]. These have been reverted. Reporting to WP:AIV.--Jetstreamer Talk 13:32, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- ...and once again ([16]). Reporting IP at WP:ANI.--Jetstreamer Talk 00:24, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
- Reverted once again ([15]). Please note that this edit led to the IP being blocked for one week. After this the very same edit continued with no further discussions here and no edit summaries.--Jetstreamer Talk 16:41, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
Here we go again with this [19]. Reverted [20].--Jetstreamer Talk 12:57, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
- I've requested protection of the article again [21] after this [22] edit. It is more than clear that the user has a minimum understanding of English [23] and that they prefer to continue their disruptive editing across a number of Serbia-related articles.--Jetstreamer Talk 10:59, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
Parent company
I've reverted again ([24]) the addition of Etihad Airways as parent company, as this airline owns a minority (49%) of the shares. Furthermore, {{airline infobox}}'s documentation says "The full legal name of the airline's parent company, if applicable" when referring to the "parent" parameter. Just one parent company. Crystal clear.--Jetstreamer Talk 21:07, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
New merger discussion
Hi everybody! I have recently worked for few hours to completely merge Jat Airways content into Air Serbia article. Not that I have just copy-pasted content, I have truly tried to fix the whole text, links, general overview and much more in order to article become even better than it was day ago. About half of the links were broken, so I had to access these links through web archive, or by finding other reliable sources. I have summarized whole content to the level where it can be simple for reading and in encyclopedic form.
There is still some job to do, most importantly: Filling section Liveries-Air Serbia, updating Services-Freight and Services-Charters content, and fixing other pages that links to Jat Airways.
Now, most importantly to everyone, why I did this merge? Because Air Serbia is just re-branded company, it is not new company as presented in the Serbian media. Date of founding is very important in this cases. It was founded on February 29, 1992 in Belgrade, Serbia. Source: [25].
For any other questions, write here. Thanks!--AirWolf (talk) 23:23, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
- I absolutelly agree with your edit and with thee merge. I haven´t seen it in detail, but seems you have done an excellent work. FkpCascais (talk) 01:42, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not very familiar with this topic, but it looks rational. Note that I have placed merge tags on the articles.Qxukhgiels (talk) 20:12, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- Many thanks. Lets see how the merge discussion goes, hope there would be enough participants in order to make it possible to archeve consensus. FkpCascais (talk) 12:46, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not very familiar with this topic, but it looks rational. Note that I have placed merge tags on the articles.Qxukhgiels (talk) 20:12, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
Jat Airways - Air Serbia merge discussion
No consensus to merge
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Hello everybody! As mentioned here [26] and here [27], we will start a new merge discussion on whether be Jat Airways article content should be merged to Air Serbia article. Intro data: Please take a look once again at Jat Airways and Air Serbia articles. These two articles are about the same airline company, now-called Akcionarsko društvo za vazdušni saobraćaj Air SERBIA Beograd (in Serbian language). This is a joint-stock company, flag carrier of Serbia based in Belgrade. It employs about 1,500 people and has a revenue of 135.30 million euros. In 2013, company then-called Jat Airways (then 100% ownership of the Government of Serbia) has signed a strategic partnership with Etihad Airways, which later bought 49% of shares. Company then commenced operations under new brand name Air Serbia on 26 October 2013. One user started discussion on 1 August 2013 (on the day a strategic partnership has been signed) whether or not should be article Air Serbia be merged to Jat Airways (See here: [28]). Neglecting user's will to help, I contest this discussion since it was opened nearly three months before any name change was official, and therefore I contest objectivity and neutrality of the opinions (before 26 October 2013 and after) and eventually results of the discussion ("no consensus to merge"). Statement: I have a few sources which should annul any speech about has it to be merged or not. All three are official, two of the company itself: [29], [30] and one from the Serbian government Agency for Business Registries: [31]. Now I want you to read provided links. Former two says that company only renamed its name (read re-branded), and the latter say that it was founded on 29 February 1992. This puts one big period on this issue. Yesterday, I have made big cleanup on both articles (fixed links, copy-pasted text - edited it in order to put it in correct form, made fairly good general overview and kept neutrality and simplicity), and eventually redirected Jat Airways article to Air Serbia article. This was how the article Air Serbia looked after it: [32] , you can re-check all the text there and verify my work. Then, I've got reverts from some prominent good-faith editor, which later took us in so-called war edit. We have made a consensus later that articles should remain as they were until we exchange thoughts with other users. The only argument that contributor had against my edit, were the discussion results and mine disrespect of them, which I contest under named reason. Since then, I decided to open up a new legitimate discussion on this issue. I hope we can get as more opinions on this issue from other contributors, making the discussion more objective and productive. I am for merging of one article into another. Please, before giving your opinion, first put one of the following three solutions in front of your opinion (for better overall visibility): Support merge / Oppose merge / Comment. Thank you! --AirWolf talk 21:12, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
Comment For the sake of a discussion I've stripped all my text which I found it could be offensive in some way to other users and I've also stripped all my text which some users could understand as "explicitly telling people it's my way or the highway".AirWolf talk 18:09, 28 August 2014 (UTC) |
Edit Request on 12 August 2014
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Can someone add Etihad Regional as a codeshare partner to the "codeshare agreements" section as per http://www.airserbia.com/en/news/etihad-regional-and-air-serbia-announce-codeshare-agreement. 71.12.206.168 (talk) 21:48, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
worldairlinenews.com
Jetstreamer, I noteced that many of the info the IP is trying to add can be found here: http://worldairlinenews.com/category/air-serbia/ Is that site reliable? FkpCascais (talk) 15:09, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
- @FkpCascais: That's not the kind of references I'd use but if you have any doubts regarding reliability you may raise your concerns at WP:RSN.--Jetstreamer Talk 17:40, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
Number of destinations in infobox
What is going on with the slow but long and persistent edit-warring an IP has been doing by changing the number of destinatons from 41 to 42? That is all he has been doing here. 5 ediits all equal. What destination is he refering to? Also, a question: do we consider as destinations all airports the airline flies to, including the hub, or we exclude the hub from the total number? What is the consensus and general practice regarding this? FkpCascais (talk) 21:43, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
I am counting at our article here, Air Serbia destinations, a total of 44 airports listed, including the hub, Belgrade, one terminated, and 7 seasonal destinations. FkpCascais (talk) 21:53, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
- The IP keeps modifying the number of destinaions with no sources backing their changes.--Jetstreamer Talk 00:37, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
- Furthermore, counting the number of destinations at a different article does not count as a reliable source.--Jetstreamer Talk 00:39, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
- I obviously know that. I am just pointing out that in any case the article listing destinations seems not updated. FkpCascais (talk) 05:38, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
- It is outdated indeed. The IP has been blocked.--Jetstreamer Talk 14:35, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
- Noteced the report and outcome. Hope it will persuade the IP to become more carefull and respect the rules of Wikipedia:Verifiablity. Thanks. PS: What about my question regarding the total number of destinations; hub(s) included, or not? Thanks FkpCascais (talk) 22:18, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, hubs should be included in the total count. But the number of destinations in the infobox must have a citation to a reliable source. Ideally, a paragraph or two in the "Destinations" section, dealing with current destinations and supported by the current timetable, should be enough.--Jetstreamer Talk 02:04, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
- Totally right. Thanks for clarifiying that to me regarding the hubs and destnations. FkpCascais (talk) 02:54, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, hubs should be included in the total count. But the number of destinations in the infobox must have a citation to a reliable source. Ideally, a paragraph or two in the "Destinations" section, dealing with current destinations and supported by the current timetable, should be enough.--Jetstreamer Talk 02:04, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
- Noteced the report and outcome. Hope it will persuade the IP to become more carefull and respect the rules of Wikipedia:Verifiablity. Thanks. PS: What about my question regarding the total number of destinations; hub(s) included, or not? Thanks FkpCascais (talk) 22:18, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
- It is outdated indeed. The IP has been blocked.--Jetstreamer Talk 14:35, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
- I obviously know that. I am just pointing out that in any case the article listing destinations seems not updated. FkpCascais (talk) 05:38, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
28 July 2016 update: Air Serbia flies non-stop to 44 destinations (45 including its hub in Belgrade) as of 23 June 2016, when JFK was launched. Here's a source (check the boilerplate at the bottom): http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/from-belgrade-to-the-big-apple-air-serbia-makes-history-as-first-new-york-service-takes-off-300289679.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.194.216.5 (talk) 09:32, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
- It says the airline serves, or has plans to serve, 44 destinations. It does not say it currently serves 44 destinations.--Jetstreamer Talk 13:05, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Lede section
The lede section stands now as it follows:
"Air Serbia (stylized as AirSERBIA) is the flag carrier and largest airline of Serbia.[9] The airline was formerly known as Jat Airways until it was renamed in 2013. Air Serbia commenced operations under its new name on 26 October 2013.[9][10] The airline has its hub at Belgrade Nikola Tesla Airport.[7]"
Would anyone object using the phrase from the "Our story" page at official website that says - "Air Serbia began its operation in 2013 and is the legal successor of the companies Aeroput (1927), Yugoslav Airlines (1947) and Jat Airways (2003)." - and compose the lead incorporating that sentence? The result would be:
"Air Serbia (stylized as AirSERBIA) is the flag carrier and largest airline of Serbia.[9] The airline began its operation on 26 October 2013.[9][10] and is the legal successor of the companies Aeroput (1927), Yugoslav Airlines (1947) and Jat Airways (2003).[11] Air Serbia has its hub at Belgrade Nikola Tesla Airport.[7]"
The source [11] would be the one I added here. Yes, my point is to add the important aspect of the legal successorship of Aeroput and JAT. Will anyone oppose the change? FkpCascais (talk) 20:53, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
- Sounds good to me. According to WP:LEDE, the use of references in the lead section is not mandatory if the information appearing there is sourced elsewhere in the article. Wouldn't it be better to add those lines in the ″History″ section and source it there so that we have a clean lead?--Jetstreamer Talk 23:28, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
AirSerbia wet leases Adria CRJ900
AirSerbia signed aggreement with Adria to wet lease 4 CRJ900s from June 2016. http://www.airserbia.com/en-RS/corporate/news/lease-deal-with-adria-airways-supports-air-serbia-network-growth Also another a330 will arrive by the end of the year also from JET Airways— Preceding unsigned comment added by Be1thaz0r (talk • contribs) 21:19, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
Air Serbia is leasing a CRJ 900[1]
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Hello, Air Serbia will be leasing a Adria Bombardier CRJ 900, this summer. It will not be painted in Air Serbias livery. ALPA4500 (talk) 17:22, 15 March 2016 (UTC) Thanks ALPA4500 (talk) 17:22, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- Not done: The page's protection level has changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. Datbubblegumdoe[talk – contribs] 03:11, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- No wet-leased aircraft in fleet tables per WP:AIRLINE-FLEET-LIST guidelines.--Jetstreamer Talk 12:28, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
External links modified
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Air Serbia fleet
Air Serbia has a total fleet of 22 planes, according to the last data on their website. That would be Airbus 330 and Bombardier CRJ-900. Here check it yourselves - http://www.airserbia.com/sr-RS/nasa-flota — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.180.63.69 (talk) 15:07, 23 May 2016 (UTC)
- No wet-leased aircraft in fleet tables per WP:AIRLINE-FLEET-LIST. The source you added (and also the note) clearly says the aircraft are/will be wet-leased.--Jetstreamer Talk 12:57, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
Long-haul
This article clearly speaks on how June 23 the flights to New York will start. I think it would be time to update oour article from "Long-haul plans" with a vague ideia of their exstance in the future (as it is now in the article), to a confirmed fact. The plane is there, tickets are being sold, and it is right a week ahead of us. FkpCascais (talk) 08:57, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
Citations needed
Maybe for No such user the fact that Air Serbia is the largest Serbian airline and the country's flag carrier parallels WP:BLUE [36] but to me the claims are not that obvious. I've requested citations for them. Regarding WP:LEADCITE, I don't see the statements referenced in the rest of the article.--Jetstreamer Talk 21:09, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
- I call bullshit, Jetstreamer. If you want a reliable reference for "flag carrier" beside the fact that it's named "Air Serbia]" I guess Reuters will do [37]. If you doubt that Air Serbia is the largest Serbian airline, I don't know what to say, try to find a larger one. That the current lead does not adequately summarize the contents according to WP:LEAD, I can agree, but putting spurious {{cn}}'s or {{fv}}s does not help the matter. No such user (talk) 21:26, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
- Call it whatever you want. Adding maintenance tags actually helps in clarifying things you think are related to WP:BLUE. Following your reasoning, American Airlines is the flag carrier of the United States, but it is not. The flag carrier status for Air Serbia was actually supported until you removed the citation in the diff above. I'm reinstating it if there's no opposition from you or anyone else.--Jetstreamer Talk 21:39, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
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- Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.airserbia.com/en/news/air-serbia-announces-codeshare-with-air-china
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- Corrected formatting/usage for http://atwonline.com/airports-routes/air-serbia-lot-announce-codeshare
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- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140524041850/http://www.airserbia.com/en/home/main_menu/contact/other_activities/su_port.html to http://www.airserbia.com/en/home/main_menu/contact/other_activities/su_port.html
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External links modified
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Why is this page protected
Im just kinda curious why the page is admin protected, as it's something you don't see very often. Gaismagorm (talk) 14:31, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- WP:PROTECTION will address all your concerns.--Jetstreamer Talk 14:04, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
- okie dokie Gaismagorm (talk) 14:33, 30 April 2024 (UTC)