Talk:Acid rain/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Observational Database

A large observational database of many different atmospheric constituents including radicals from a host of platforms is available. This was created as part of ESA Envisat and NASA Aura validation. It is of general use. Do you think it should be added to the article text? Dlary

Accuracy/POV

according to me:i would like to tell that acid rain is created by those who don't care about the environment and we should held an awareness programme.

Furthermore, I miss the placing of the widespread attention to this perceived phenomenon within the context of the environmental-conscious 80s.

Also, there should be some descriptions of Nitrification, and attention paid to the publications in Nature of January 27th 1994 regarding the role of calcium potassium Sodium and magnesium in counterbalancing the SO2 en NOx emssions.

There is a lot more to be said on this topic, quite a lot of the suppositions about Acid rain were allegedly based on junk science but sadly I miss the necessary background to contribute in a sensible way to the article. --Lomedae 18:54, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

I agree that this article should be tagged for accuracy or POV.

"Since public interest groups can retire the licenses by purchasing them, the net result is a continuously decreasing and more diffused set of pollution sources. At the same time, no particular operator is ever forced to spend money without a return of value from commercial sale of assets"

Which emission trading agreements allows public interest groups to buy licences? Some examples would be good. The statement on the effectiveness of emission trading systems is an opinion, rather than fact and should be removed. For a full explanation of its merits, or otherwise, the page points to emission trading.

POV should definitely be removed. The favourable references to emission trading should be removed, but I'll first give the emission trading entry a makeover. Can someone provide a reference to the bold assertion of the environmental advantage of nuclear power? If not, I'll remove the reference. I suspect it is a half-truth at best. Jens Nielsen 10:43, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

formation of H2SO4

sulfur dioxide and nitrogen oxides ... diffuse into the atmosphere and react with water to form sulfuric and nitric acids

Sulphur dioxide is oxidation state 4. Sulphuric acid is oxidation state 6. It can't be a case of just reacting with water, there must be further oxidation. Likewise, which nitrogen oxides? I think largely NO and NO₂ (oxidation states 2 and 4). Nitric acid is oxidation state 5.

TerraGreen 12:26, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Sulfur dioxide (S⁴⁺) plus water produces sulfurous acid (S⁴⁺)

SO₂ + H₂O ==> H₂SO₃

Sulfur trioxide (S⁶⁺) plus water produces sulfuric acid (S⁶⁺)

SO₃ + H₂O ==> H₂SO₄

Nitrogen oxide reactions seem a bit more complicated. Vsmith 13:23, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

According to my book, nitrogen oxide forms acid rain by the following reaction.

nitrogen oxide + water → nitric acid + nitrous acid

Is it correct?

Also, I want to know how sulfur trioxide forms in air? According to my teacher, sulfur trioxide cannot be formed without catalyst even there is excess oxygen.

My teacher also told me that dissolving sulfur trioxide into water is very exothermic (and that's why it is not done in the Contact Process). If sulfur trioxide in air dissolves to form acid rain, will the rain water be heated and vaporized?Momoko

The current explanation is misleading. A large fraction of oxidation of SO2 occurs in raindrops and involves reactions in the liquid phase with hydrogen peroxide, ozone and manganese. Most emissions are in the form of SO2 or H2S. Oxidation in the gas phase occurs via reaction with the hydroxyl radical. I will improve this when I get time (unless someone else gets there first. There are several steps to the reactions so I need to get my atmospheric chemistry book out to check they are right. In the meantime I'll remove the misleading information.

On nitric oxide the main reaction is in the gas phase NO2 + OH -> HNO3. Another reaction is the nightime process of N2O5 reacting with water on the surface of particulate to give nitric acid.--NHSavage 08:56, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

This section had recently been changed incrrectly with the reation of sulfur trioxide with water changed to sulfur dioxide. This meant it resembled the old incrorrect version. there was a lot of vandalism on the article and I missed this important change which happened 31st Oct. sorry about that. I have now restored the correct version of this reaction. Thanks to JKleo for spotting that one.--NHSavage 20:50, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

-vinegar and acid rain have a ph of 4.2 not 2.4  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.251.51.243 (talk) 17:07, 10 June 2009 (UTC) 

Criteria has changed from 5.6 to 5.0

The pH of "normal" rain has traditionally been given a value of 5.6. However scientists now believe that the pH of rain may vary from 5.6 to a low of 4.5 with the average value of 5.0. [1]

To be considered acid precipitation, the precipitation has to have a pH of 5.0 or lower. [2]

Paleorthid 18:30, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

may vary from 5.6 to a low of 4.5 with the average value of 5.0. Huh? Wouldn't the average be 5.05? Caesardude 02:10, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Huh? Wouldn't the average be 5.05? Depends if you're thinking of the mean or the median. One would assume that the median is the best approach to this situation.

Normal rain has a pH of 6.5 - pH's of 5.6 or below are considered to be "acid rain" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.110.82.85 (talk) 10:26, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Soil effects poorly documented

However, data to determine changes in soil characteristics (due to acid rain) are generally lacking.

Acid-base Characteristics of Soils in the Adirondack Mountains, New York

Paleorthid 23:24, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

That abstract is very unclear. I suspect it may mean that the data for the Adirondack Mountain is lacking rather than information in general. For the UK there is certainly much data. See chapter 5 of NEGTAP final report.--NHSavage 20:09, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup

The part that says that it needs a cleanup needs it badly. It makes my eyes go all funny.

Someone please have a creaful look at the contents, plz. Thanks. --Bhadani 09:57, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree this needs a lot of work. From looking at it carefullly it looks like a personal essay. It was posted on its own entry without any work to make it appropriate. I think it needs to be hacked down to a minimum so that the useful information can be put in and the rest removed. I'll try and get around to this but I am worling on Methane at the moment.--NHSavage 16:11, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Hacked. Comments welcome.--NHSavage 21:38, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Source needed for technical detail added

Removed from article:

The thickness of embedded SO2 and NO2 layers in marble is a meassure of the rate at which a material is attacked by this type of pollution. Calculated constant rates allow the thickness of embedded layers to be calculated over a wide range of SO2 and NO2 concentrations. Experiments have shown that, even in the presence of excess atmospheric NO2 over SO2, the amount of CaSO4 produced excess that of Ca(NO3)2, indicating that SO2 has a stronger weathering effect on marble relative to NO2.

First, this kind of detail needs a source - Experiments have shown... won't cut it here. Also the relative solubilities of calcium nitrate vs calcium sulfate should be discussed - presumably they were in the orig. source? Finally, why the bold - is this bit that critical? Vsmith 21:37, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Effects on metal

I've read on random websites that there is an effect on iron and other metals. i might be able to add some after some research but this needs to be mentioned.

Major edit

I've been working on a fairly major edit of this article and I have now put it up. Feedback is welcome.--NHSavage 21:09, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Need for proof

Cut from intro:

The resulting increased acidity in soil and waterways has proven to be harmful to fish and vegetation.

The article provides no source for this claim, let alone any "proof". However, it is an article of faith among radical environmentalists.

Would someone please provide a source for the claim that there is proof?

And if they have time, would they also please summarize any evidence this source provides? I'm looking for things like:

• Acid rain has been observed to increase the acidity of soil and waterways.
• This increased acidity has cause measurable harm to fish and vegetation.

Better yet would be actual numbers, e.g., Lake Michigan's pH went from 5.0 to 4.0; and then the population of lake trout went from 2 million down to 5,000 (or whatever). --Uncle Ed 21:57, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Some quotes about acid rain

• Fred Singer: Among scientists acid rain is generally understood to present no hazards to human health. [3]
• The scientific chain between emissions and acid rain consists of three links: It requires knowledge about the emission of polluting gases into the atmosphere, the acidity of precipitation, and the ecological effects on soils and water. The evidence for all three can best be described as confused and confusing. [4]
• EPA: Researchers now know that acid rain causes slower growth, injury, or death of forests. [5]
• Missouri state gov't: Many lakes in the Adirondack Mountains of New York and many streams in the Appalachian mountain region have lost trout and other aquatic life due to acid rain. [6]

EPA: "Food crops ... are not usually seriously affected because farmers frequently add fertilizers to the soil to replace nutrients that have washed away." [7]

Still looking for proof

Once again, I ask: what is the evidence that human-caused emissions of pollutants (like sulfur dioxide) has significantly increased the acidity of rain anywhere? Or that reducing emissions has decreased the acidity of rain?

I'm not questioning the theory - the chemical process seems rather straightforward. But I'm looking for something nontechnical which our readers can dig into. Something like:

• 1920 - rain acidity in the U.S. Northeast was measured at pH of 6.4 by scientists with the Blah Blah Blah agency.
• 1980 - after 60 years of sulfur dioxide emissions from power plansts in Ohio and neighboring states, rain acidity increased to a pH of 6.1 [Blah agency report, 1983].

One good place to start would be NEGTAP, 2001. Another good source of info is

EPA's page on acid rain effects. I am aware that this section still needs a lot of work though.--NHSavage 22:17, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Political quotes

Peter F. Guerrero wrote a letter for a GAO report, saying:

• Acid rain ... is largely the result of burning fossil fuels to generate

electricity. [It] can harm human health and damage forests, lakes, and streams.

• The two major causes of acid rain [are] sulfur dioxide and nitrogen oxides from electric utility power plants that burn coal and other fossil fuels.
• Sulfur dioxide and nitrogen oxide emissions return to earth (in a process called deposition) in various chemical compounds.
• Total sulfur deposition includes sulfates in precipitation (called wet sulfates), dry sulfate particulates, and dry sulfur gas. Similarly, total nitrogen deposition includes nitrates in precipitation (called wet nitrates), dry nitrate particulates, and dry nitrogen oxides.

This looks almost exactly like what our article says - though I haven't checked it word for word yet. It's not a copyright issue as much as a "source" issue. We need to rely on scientific sources for facts. Or, failing that, on political sources for points of view. --Uncle Ed 14:40, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

"M"

In the gas phase reactions... what kind of (apparently inexistant) element is represented by the letter m? Please clarify.

--Dbs12693 00:45, 24 March 2006 (UTC)dbs12693

It represent any third body. In Earth's atmosphere this is almost always N2 or O2. If you consider the reaction with just two bodies reacting together to give a single product e.g. OH + NO2 = HNO3 then it is impossible to conserve both momentum and energy simultaneously just by looking at the velocity of the product. The extra energy becomes internal energy in the product and this will tear the new molecule apart unless it colides quickly with some other molecule 'M' to remove this energy. This M is the conventional representation of this process in chemical kinetics. This also has a big effect on the speed of the reaction, giving it a pressure dependence as well as a temperature dependence. I will try and a short note to this effect in the article soon (and I will have to think about writing an article for wikipedia on this as I can't find anything to link to).--NHSavage 08:23, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Big revert

I have just reverted back to the version of the 29/3. Apart from a lot of vandalism two other changes have been made.

1) In the early 1800's, a famous inventor by the name of Janakan set forth to discover the chemical basis behind acid rain (UofT Acid Rain Catalogue, 1997). (by User:Thakkarbhavik).

I am prety sure this is spurious. I apologise if this is true but I have never heard of Janakan and a google search on his name and acid rain finds nothing relevant. If it is correct please explain what the (UofT Acid Rain Catalogue, 1997) is and how I can get a copy. --NHSavage 13:34, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

2) What can I do to help? (by lots of different anonymous users). This is general advice on "beign green", parts of it are not at all relevant to acid rain - e.g. go CFC free (especially as CFCs are now banned everywhere). As regards acid rain I suppose some of the changes in driving style are relevant as nitric acid is still a major problem. However it is really out of place.

3) History and trends section went AWOL after all the vandalism.

--NHSavage 13:34, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Unoriginal

I don't know much about copyrights, but much of this article is taken word for word, including images, from http://www.epa.gov/acidrain/.

Caesardude 02:18, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing this out. However works of US government agencies are not copyright. If you click on either of the images you will see they are tagged as such. As for the text - the copyright status is the same although I'd prefer that we had clean text but I'm not sure which parts are the problem - I know I wrote large chunks of the chemistry parts myself from scratch.--NHSavage 07:08, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Controversy

Does this article fairly describe both points of view, about whether acid rain has ever caused any harm and/or whether this harm is important enough to pass laws to reduce emissions and thereby reduce this harm? --Uncle Ed 15:15, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I have added the EPA viewpoint (which I assume is mainstream) [8], followed by an opposing viewpoint (which I assume is minority). [9]

If this is "POV pushing", shoot me now! --Uncle Ed 15:26, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Three ref's might be overkill. Please trim this down or summarize it. --Uncle Ed 18:28, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I am a bit worried by this edit but I don't have time now to do a proper change to the article. In particular I am worried by the selective use of one sentance from the Environmental Literacy Council webpage ("the effects of acidic precipitation were not as great as once feared") which is taken out of context (elsewhere it mentions that 10% of eastern lakes and streams had been affected by acid deposition). This is a short summary of a 98 page report (which I have not read but will try and skim). It is also not really evidence to my mind that this organisation believes that acid depostion is not a serious issue. If the early fears were that every lake in the US would die then clearly the effects were not as bad as that. If there was serious damage to 10% of Eastern lakes then this seeems a big problem. I do not plan to make any edits immediately but I feel it is important that we do not give the impression of there being widespread skepticism about acid rain which I feel would be misleading.

Yes, all of this makes sense. I just spen some time going through the "ten year study", and I'm not sure that Singer's viewpoint is really justified by his reference to it. He might have a bone to pick, so we probably should not consider him "an objective source" but rather someone who "disagrees with the mainstream". --Uncle Ed 19:52, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

hello london —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.168.35.77 (talk) 17:49, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I also wonder if this really belongs in the lead section.--NHSavage 18:52, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Removed from intro - ref to a '93 letter by Singer and a report based on a minute interview - not good sources, especially for the introduction. Vsmith 23:21, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

How about a controversy section?

• Other sources disagree, such as retired atmospheric physicist S. Fred Singer.
• He wrote:
• A major scientific study, conducted under government auspices, had demonstrated that most small lakes affected are naturally acidic and that forests are not harmed. This new scientific evidence was never disputed; it was simply ignored.

I would place it near "Prevention". --Uncle Ed 16:43, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

What was the major scientific study referred to? A vague ref. and a cite to SEPP site aren't enough. Or did Singer not specify the study - just a bit weasely as is. Vsmith 16:56, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Acid rain vs Acid precipitation

If you want to be picky about this the correct term is actually acid deposition - dry depostion of acidic compounds is also a major contributor to acidification. We should either use the common term (Acid rain) or the widest possible term. I favour acid rain.--NHSavage 18:38, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Me too. By a mile. Sfahey 15:33, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

• The term "acid rain" is commonly used to mean the deposition of acidic components in rain, snow, fog, dew, or dry particles. The more accurate term is "acid precipitation." (USGS)

If you want to disagree with the USGS, be my guest and move the article back. I'm easy-going. --Uncle Ed 19:04, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I do actually disagree. "Acid deposition also includes direct deposition, in which acidic fog or cloud is in direct contact with the ground; and dry deposition, in which ions become attached to dust particles and fall to the ground". [10]. It is illogical to include dry deposition of acids in an article on acid precipitation. Dry deposition occurs in the abscence of precipitation (hence the name). Acid rain is the commonly used term so there is a case for this article to be called this (the original title). Otherwise it has to be Acid deposition.--NHSavage 19:09, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Renamed. See WP:NAME as well.--NHSavage 10:54, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

NPOV dispute

Uncle Ed wrote when flagging this as NPOV: "should fairly describe whether acid rain has ever caused any harm and/or whether this harm is important enough to pass laws to reduce emissions and thereby reduce this harm"

Can we agree to narrow this down a bit? As I see it, the main issue which you see as not being neutral is the question of the cost/benefit analysis of emission reductions? Can we just label the section on "Prevention methods" as NPOV not the whole article? Your main concern with the "Adverse effects" section seems to be the lack of references - this is well flgagged up by the citation needed templates but it might be worth slapping a {{Unreferenced}} tag on it. I can start to work on providing references for this section in that case. The discussion of trends and their relation to emissions reductions is very poorly dealt with - I think there need to be seperate sections for the history of the research and the measured trends.

The "Prevention" section seems the ideal place to note any oppposition to emissions controls and probably the most controversy prone also. One of Singer's articles you cited actaully argues that it was right to make the initial effort to reduce emissions of acid precursors it is jus that the final 1% is too expensive to clean up. I am not an expert in this area but I would be suprised if there is not more controversy about this out there on this sort of level. Environemtal science only has to deal with a very complex system, political science has to cope with confliciting priorities and ideologies as well....

I hope this plan can give us a clearer way forward with this article--NHSavage 20:42, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Reworked Adverse effects

I have stripped this section down to the bare bones of information all taken from the EPAs pages. I will now fill in some more detail from other sources. However I believe this is now better structured and has references for all the information here. Stuff that I removed I will try and verify from other sources and then put back in the article.--NHSavage 19:18, 12 September 2006 (UTC) nice interesting ... i like it

Archive 1

Archive 2

Typo?

I don't claim to be an expert in the field, but this passage in the introduction paragraph seems to include a couple of errors. First off, we have:

Acid rain is defined as any type of precipitation with a pH that is unusually low.

As a lower pH indicates a stronger acid this seems to make sense. A couple lines later we have:

Therefore a pH of >5.6 has sometimes been used as a definition of acid rain.

This seems to read a pH GREATER than 5.6 has been used to define acid rain. This seems irrational as a pH greater than 5.6 is approaching a neutral pH. A couple lines later we find the same issue again:

However, natural sources of acidity mean that in remote areas, rain has a pH which is between 4.5 and 5.6 with an average value of 5.0 and so rain with a pH >5 is a more appropriate definition.

Going to alter this to read a pH of <5.6 and pH <5. If this is incorrect, go ahead and revert back.

-Alazon

Went to change this and in the code for the page the symbols appear correctly. Since this seems to be a coding error somewhere, I substituted lesser than and less than for the < symbol.

-Alazon

hey watz ^ tree huggers (please dont get offendid im a tree huger too) l.o.l im in total shock to hear about acid rain i swear it makes me mad70.156.27.239 01:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)ME THE

TREE HUGER70.156.27.239 01:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Forests and other vegetation

Somebody didn't finish their thought in the last sentence under Forests and other vegetation. Anyone know what they are talking about? Hburg 15:59, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Picture

I think a good picture for the article would be one of a forest (and trees) damaged by the acid. You would have to find one that allows fair use though unless you have taken one yourself in such an area.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.216.14.180 (talk • contribs) 12:50, 9 February 2007

Acid rain does not cause deforestation

According to Julian Simon (The Ultimate Resource 2, pg 265/6) and Bjorn Lomborg (The Skeptical Environmentalist, pg 178-181) acid rain does not cause deforestation. Both cite the work of the National Acid Precipitation Assessment Program (the only longitudinal attempt to demonstrate causality, as opposed to correlation) which demonstrated that acid rain does not reduce sapling growth, across a number of species and a broad range of pH 6.0 - 3.5 (cf average pH of 4.2 for acid rain). See: Kulp, J.L. and Herrick, C.N. /The Causes and Effects of Acid Deposition./ Interim Assessment, National Acid Precipitation Assessment Program. Washington, D.C.: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1987. [11]. --Michael C. Price ^talk 02:03, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism

I have noticed that this page is subject to very frequent vandalism and bad-faith edits. Does anyone think this page should be semi-protected? I realize this won't stop all of the problems, but it would sure help. Thoughts?--Analogue Kid 20:40, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

GA comment

The statements that are followed by "citation needed" need to be removed or sourced or the article will be quick-failed by a reviewer. --Nehrams2020 05:07, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Failed "good article" nomination

This article failed good article nomination. This is how the article, as of May 27, 2007, compares against the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?: Can be improved:

- positioning of the citations need to come after the nearest punctuation

- more copyediting is needed, as some sentences have excessive commas and bad grammar

- wrong heading level: 'Gas phase chemistry'

- lead section is too long.

2. Factually accurate?: 'Citation needed' tags are still present, as mentioned above. Existing citations are not in the proper format.

3. Broad in coverage?: Yes, but how about some information on future trends of acid rain?

4. Neutral point of view?: Yes.

5. Article stability? Yes. Interesting amount of vandalism.

6. Images?: Good.

When these issues are addressed, the article can be resubmitted for consideration. If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to a GA review. Thank you for your work so far. Quick-failed per cleanup tag criterion. — Carson 05:13, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism

I have noticed to shock obvious vandalism stating "Mr.Filips is stupid" I am new to wikipedia and don't know what else to do but announce it here. This needs attention and must be changed immediatly... I hope. Dillpickle987 02:38, 7 June 2007 (UTC)acid rain is confusing but youll find out 1 day......

There is also an incomprehensible paragraph on Margaret Thatcher. This also needs attention.

New lead

The existing lead section of this article was too specific and too long (see good article review). I have attempted to make a short summary of the article consistent with the guidlines at: Wikipedia:Lead section. I may have now made it a bit on the short side and it will still need citiations to be added, but I belive this is an improvement. Comments welcome.--NHSavage 18:12, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Article gone backwards?

Since this article was nominated for GA status, it seems to have lost large sections of text. In addition, someof the citation needed tags seem to have been removed without citations being provided. I have restored some of the lost text.--NHSavage 18:49, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is infested with morons

All the "scientific discussion and debate" on this page demanding "proof of harm or damage" caused by water precipitation with super-normal acidity (acid rain in layman i.e. Wikipedia terms) makes me convulse with laughter and amusement. Soon we will have "skeptics" who'd demand "strong proof" to "cite" the harmful effects of consumption of cyanide, LOL. Bunch of idiots, y'all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.200.95.130 (talk) 15:33, 20 November 2007 (UTC) wow its so great here i can now do my report —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.94.182.210 (talk) 23:24, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

There is acid rain in the Rainforest.

acid rain is a result of air pollution —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.68.34.74 (talk) 17:21, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Affected Areas

In the section "Affected areas":

"Particularly badly affected places around the globe include most of Europe (particularly Scandinavia with many lakes with acidic water containing no life and many trees dead) many parts of the United States (states like New York are very badly affected) and South Western Canada. Other affected areas include the South Eastern coast of China and Taiwan.

Potential problem areas in the future

Places like much of South Asia (Indonesia, Malaysia and Thailand), Western South Africa (the country), Southern India and Sri Lanka and even West Africa (countries like Ghana, Togo] and Nigeria) could all be prone to acidic rainfall in the future."

This section is poorly worded. Also, where is "South Western Canada"? I think this is probably "Southern Ontario" (where lots of manufacturing and much of the population is), but Ontario is hardly "Western Canada" (it's considered Central Canada).

My proposed re-wording is as follows (and deleting the potential problem area, which pretty much covers the remaining parts of the globe). The "unfortunate geography" refers to being downwind/downstream of heavy industry and population... don't know how to more accurately describe this. I intend this merely as a re-wording, not supporting claims or research.

Affected Areas

Acid rain affects some areas to a greater degree, such as: much of Europe and the United States, southern Ontario in Canada, the south-eastern coast of China, and Taiwan. Heavily populated areas like New York state or areas with unfortunate geography like Scandinavia are severely affected.

SilverEyesSE (talk) 19:37, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Incomprehensible Paragraph on Margaret Thatcher

This page has a meaningless section on the effects of Margaret Thatcher's political policies on Acid Rain. Could a trusted user review/remove this section.

Richard.walkington (talk) 21:00, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Done. Gabriel Kielland (talk) 07:24, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I don’t know why this section was removed, or why people are accusing it of being incomprehensible. As the rest of the article points the finger of blame for Acid Rain at the use of Coal and as we all know Margret Thatchers destruction of the coal mining and using industries (e.g. the massive amount of funding she ploughed into nuclear power) and other industry surly she is a large factor in the dropping levels of Acid Rain produced by the UK. Just because its a political not scientific method of reduction surly it still is worth some merit. Instead it was more or less unilaterally removed. Two users agreeing over a period of two days dose not make a consensus!--Prophesy (talk) 01:00, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Simply WP:OR. Vsmith (talk) 01:30, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Its not origanal rechearch though. As you can see it was refrenced.--Prophesy (talk) 13:19, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

User:Prophesy insists that Margareth Thatcher is a prevention method, which is wrong. Acid rain was not accidentily discovered in the 1980s, nor was Mrs. Thatcher. The speech referenced only mention the international commitment she at the time had inherited as prime minister. The European history of acid rain abatement could very well fit into this article, but not as this joke. Gabriel Kielland (talk) 09:45, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

New Material

Added substantial new material on acid rain emissions trading program in U.S. Mervyn Emrys (talk) 20:25, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Nagging Spelling Error

It may have gone unnoticed because no one thought it worth mentioning, but the introductory paragraph contains the word "infastructure" instead of "infrastructure." As this paragraph is the one most commonly referenced by students looking for general definitions, it should be as orthographically sound as possible. CopperPlatypus (talk) 20:01, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Fixed. Thanks. :-) Atmoz (talk) 20:49, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

spelling mistake?

In the introduction I noticed a possible spelling mistake of sulfur. My computer says it should be 'sulphur'. Because being a student I personally don't want less marks for a spelling mistake.

No mistake in the article. See [12] for an explanation.

Sorry if this is an american wiki, but if it's British, don't spell it in the Americanised (again, if this is american wiki, tha's americanized, and my comment is worthless) way, or we will slowly lose our nationality

81.157.127.193 (talk) 18:02, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia's policy is to retain British spelling if the article already uses British spelling, or American spelling, if the article already uses American spelling. Changing one to the other (or worse, introducing a different spelling convention from the one currently used in that article) is discouraged. It's just a matter of maintaining internal consistency in the articles, it has nothing to do with nationality.—Tetracube (talk) 00:39, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Gas phase chemistry

Where is the hydroxyl radical coming from? Should be explained V8rik (talk) 20:07, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Failed verification

{{editsemiprotected}} In the "Other adverse effects" section there is a sentence that says "Acid rain also causes an increased rate of oxidation for iron", citing this as a reference; however, no such thing is mentioned in that reference. Please add {{Failed verification}}. --204.124.182.189 (talk) 21:36, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Material degradation from acid rain is extensively studied. Two European references added here.Gabriel Kielland (talk) 23:25, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

removed the template, the added references back up the statement and the old reference is left because it backs up the visibility and haze statement.

air pollution

air pollution occurs if substances present in the atmosphere are harmful to humans, other organisms or materials.they could be gases ,solids ,or liquids released due to human activities or natural causes —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.197.240.96 (talk) 12:36, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

There is no reference to NAPAP

NAPAP was a $600 million study into acid rain in the 1980's that included the following poopcicles in the south for a lemonade stand by pooptrivia.coma) the problem had probably been overstated b) there was little evidence of acidification of lakes - many which were changing were in fact reverting to their historical acidic condition having been damaged by slash-and-burn agriculture c) there was little evidence for tree damage; the total problem showed itself at the tree line where the additional nutrients (NOx and SOx)caused early blooming which was then damaged by late frosts. The NAPAP director was replaced and the final report held back until the 1990 CAAA had been passed. Perpetual sceptic (talk) 07:32, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

The 2005 NAPAP report to Congress is the first external link. Its content contradicts your allegations. Gabriel Kielland (talk) 17:21, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree, the article now reads as though the NAPAP report was well received by the environmentalists which is far from the case, in fact J. Laurence Kulp resigned as head of the scientific study due to the reports political incorrectness. See[13]. --Another berean (talk) 19:09, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

"Acidity of vinegar"

Vinegar (like other acids) doesn't have a pH, it has a pKa (which is a very different number than pH). The best colloquial definition of pKa is "acid strength", whereas pH is best defined as "acidity of a solution". Solutions of various pH may be made with any given acid (i.e., it is possible, by varying the concentration of vinegar) to make a solution of pH 6, 5, 4, etc, just as it would be possible to use another acid, such as HCl, to make solutions of these same pH values). A particular solution of vinegar might have a pH of 2.4, but not all solutions of vinegar do. --Chemistry marmot (talk) 15:50, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Occult deposition

Occult deposition - from direct contact between vegetation etc. and mist or fog - should also be mentioned, as it can be especially significant in some areas. See reference from the UK Air Pollution Information System: http://www.apis.ac.uk/glossary.htm.Bobbragg (talk) 00:10, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Acid rain

Main article: Acid rain

Acid rain is any form of precipitation, where the water molecules presented have a unusual decrease in pH levels. Acid rain can often occur during the weather phenomenon of a thunderstorm. The voltage of electricity release by lightning is powerful enough to split nitrogen molecules in the atmosphere into separate atoms. These nitrogen atoms are reactive enough to form compounds with the water molecules presented in rain, forming nitric acid, a form of acid rain. The properties of acid rain are able to dissolve structure created out of minerals containing calcite (otherwise known as calcium carbonate). The acid rain reacts with the carbon molecules compost within the calcite, while also releasing calcium atoms. This process then wears and dissolves away structures made of limestone and other minerals containing calcite. Other that the damage it does to infrastructures and buildings of limestone, acid rain can also produce risk and harm towards marine wildlife through increases in acidity. Tissues of vegetations are also presented with the risk of being damaged. Acid rain can also increase acidity in soil particles, which decrease the nutrients presented in harmed soil as well as encourage the presence of certain disease-agent microorganisms. Besides occurring within the presence of thunderstorms, acid rain can also occur in dense populated areas. Dense populated areas often have high usage of energy source, which releases greenhouse gas. This can mixed with water molecules presented in the atmosphere, creating acid rain. The gas particles released by volcanic eruptions can also allow acid rain to form.

This is a donation from the Severe weather page. I am currently conducting a GOCE on the page and this information does not fit the stated definition on the page for Severe weather. I do not want the information lost, so please integrate it into your page. Sincerely Bullock ✉ 04:23, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Critical Review of references

I have checked a number of references on this page and found them pretty out of date especially concerning Europe. The page should be updated to reflect the current emissions rates as well as the current state of the environment. I will consider any reference dated before 2005 as suspect. The reason is that acid rain, especially in Europe, has decreased considerably since the fall of communism. I will start at critical review of the references (free time permitting) and just giving a heads up. Appreciate any help I can get!

One thing I think this page should have is a table/graph of decreased emission over the years. After all this is a success story of environmental protection!91.153.115.15 (talk) 17:47, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Part about acid rain in USA should be removed. Or put on its own wikipage. It has nothing to do with the general wikipedia site about acid rain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.224.164.13 (talk) 09:18, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Historical acid rain levels

It would be good to put up a chart showing acid rain levels since 1970 to show how well the environmental legislation effected the positive change. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.66.100.92 (talk) 21:14, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 71.204.216.79, 30 April 2011

footnote 27 has the stray word "own"

71.204.216.79 (talk) 18:15, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

 Fixed Thanks, CTJF83 19:22, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Livestock and ammonia

In the end of the Emissions of chemicals leading to acidification section it says:

'Also, livestock production plays a major role. It is responsible for almost two-thirds of all sources of ammonia produced through human activities, which contributes significantly to acid rain.[24]'

It seems very strange that ammonia would contribute to acid rain since it is a base. The reference[14] backs up the statement, but google hits for <acid rain ammonia> indicate that ammonia on the other hand neutralize the acid rain[15][16]. For this reason I will remove the two sentences quoted above. Ulflund (talk) 17:48, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up. We should really look into this more, or ask someone knowledgable from the chemistry project. Thegreatdr (talk) 21:45, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

I have read through quite a few (internet based) sources about acid rain an none of them mention ammonia as a contributer. This indicates that it cannot 'contribute significantly to acid rain' as was stated before. I have also looked at more search results and papers about acid rain and ammonia and most mention most mention ammonia as reducing the acidity of the rain while only a few talks about it as contributing to acid rain. Ulflund (talk) 17:31, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

CAIR EPA references out of date

The discussion of EPA CAIR is five years out of date - CAIR was ruled illegal, and the EPA required to issue new rules, but those have been fought in court and their implementation stayed, so any correction will be temporary. Mulp (talk) 18:30, 19 February 2012 (UTC) lies — Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.150.137.103 (talk) 16:37, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

EU provisional agreement on sulphur emissions from ships

Hi, someone of people who is allowed to edit the article may add some new political agreements from EU on the topic: http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=MEMO/12/374&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en Sillu12 (talk) 11:23, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Headline text

This is an excellent scientific treatment. Thanks,

Now, can anyone describe what industry and goverment are doing to ameliorate the problem? I'd like to see at least a reference to emissions trading or fines or scrubbing or reductions of output or whatever. very nice this information —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.184.59.28 (talk) 16:37, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Ed Poor, Tuesday, June 11, 2002

I'd suggest removing the reference to carbon emissions from the headline text; they contribute to the acidity of normal rain, but the solubility of CO2 in water is so low that increased carbon dioxide doesn't have a significant effect on the pH of rain--Chemistry marmot (talk) 15:37, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

True True —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.16.115.218 (talk) 17:18, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

That's why I came to this talk page, and I am going to remove it. Carbonic acid is very weak, and CO2 emissions have nothing to do with acid rain. Huw Powell (talk) 01:26, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Hydrofluoric Acid

Hydrofluoric Acid is an important component of Acid rain, in reality. It should be mentioned in this article! Because it is so corrosive, damaging and hazardous it is particularly important that it be included, together with a discussion of its environmental and health effects. Also Hydrofluoric acid forms from the combustion of petrol that has substituted fluorine which occurs when cracked using HF acid as a catalyst, which is now the vast majority of all petrol because the method that uses sulphuric acid is less efficient and a couple of percent efficiency when it comes to oil refining is big $$$. Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.101.92.239 (talk).

This is an interesting idea, but are there any references to back it up? I was not aware that HF had a significant impact on rainwater or other precipitation. I may have missed this however, as my own area of interest is more in the area of ozone and aerosol pollution. Do you have any references you can cite?--NHSavage (talk) 10:22, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Grey box

Below the Human activity section, there is some empty space (it appears as a grey rectangle. It also says "printed by Jecterian Toyin". Looks like a silly mistake to me, I'll remove it. Helemaalnicks (talk) 13:00, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Suggested citation for Taiwan as area affected by acid rain

From the Taiwanese Central Weather Bureau's own statistics on acid rain: http://cwb.gov.tw/V7e/observe/phRain/index.htm

Yearly mean pH of rainfall shows acid rain consistently from 1999 onwards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.193.250.253 (talk) 11:37, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 February 2015

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Semi-protected edit request on 24 March 2015

(acid rain] .mg6654'[;lli[] file g 6 pic 44gs drive in 7649 lo[]';ljh/. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dannywebbz (talk • contribs) 23:24, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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Semi-protected edit request on 22 March 2016

The spelling of sulfur is inconsistent in the article. At times it is spelled sulfur and others sulphur. Both seemed to be acceptable to different audiences, but the preferred spelling within the sciences seems to be sulfur. I'd recommend switching instances of sulphur to sulfur. Humanpowered101 (talk) 01:14, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

 Not done the only use of sulphur I can see is in relation to the 1985 Helsinki Protocol on the Reduction of Sulphur Emissions and as that was its correct title, it needs to remain - Arjayay (talk) 08:38, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

Definition

The article mentions that "unpolluted" rain has a slightly acidic pH. However had, the article does not clearly define at which point we commonly speak of "acidic rain". Can someone extend the definition and say at which pH-range we can speak of acidic or acid-polluted rain? 2A02:8388:1641:8D00:BE5F:F4FF:FECD:7CB2 (talk) 08:34, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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Semi-protected edit request on 29 November 2016

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unclear language in para regarding history in US

currently reads

White House Office of Science and Technology Policy reviewed the draft report and sent Fred Singer’s suggestions of the report, which cast doubt on the cause of acid rain.[26] The panelists revealed rejections against Singer’s positions and submitted the report to Nierenberg in April.

Language not clear. First, need a "The"

The White House Office of Science and Technology Policy reviewed the draft report and sent Fred Singer’s suggestions of the report, which cast doubt on the cause of acid rain.[26] The panelists revealed rejections against Singer’s positions and submitted the report to Nierenberg in April.

But still not clear. Is the intent something like the following:

White House Office of Science and Technology Policy reviewed the draft report but rather than, or in lieu of, [yes?] sending that draft TO WHOM? sent suggestions of the report by Fred Singer NOT CLEAR "suggestions of the report", which cast doubt on the cause of acid rain.[26] The panelists revealed rejections NOT CLEAR "revealed rejections" against Singer’s positions and submitted the report to Nierenberg in April.

I cannot figure out the intent of the language here. But it is clearly in need of repair. I infer that there someone is monitoring this page for changes and it seems that that individual should fix all this.

Soccer59 (talk) 23:33, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

Other specific country sections

Just a question / suggestion: Is there a reason that there is such a big focus on the United States and Acid Rain? If the United States is included, shouldn't other countries or continents not have a seperate section as well?? - Marijnekramer (talk) 17:50, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

Sulfur dioxide and nitrogen oxides are gasses - cannot be particulate

In the section "Human health effects" I think we should not discuss particulates- isn't that another kind of pollution, although may be caused by the same processes like burning coal? Eaberry (talk) 03:26, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

sulfur dioxide dissolves in water

In the section Chemical Processes, under Hydrolysis, it has the following equation:

SO2 (g) + H2O ⇌ SO2·H2O

The dot between SO2 and H2O implies that SO2·H2O is a hydrate. As such, there is no covalent bond between the oxygen in H2O and the sulfur in SO2. However, most references point out that when sulfur dioxide dissolves in water, it forms sulfurous acid whose formula is H2SO3. H2SO3 is (HO)2SO, with all three oxygen bonded to sulfur.

The next equation, SO2·H2O ⇌ H+ + HSO3−, actually contains two steps, a formation of sulfurous acid from the aforementioned hydrate step and an ionization step. I wonder if it'd be better to replace hydrate with H2SO3 in both cases.

By the way, there should be no space between SO2 and (g).無聲 (talk) 01:25, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

White Mountains

change ((White Mountains)) to ((White Mountains (New Hampshire)|White Mountains))

 Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. - FlightTime (open channel) 20:41, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

SO2 emissions

The Berresheim, Wine, and Davies may be outdated. It is from 1995, and there have been all sorts of pollution controls added since then. This report from 2019 gives 49686 thousand tons SO2, I think about 25000 thousand tons S, not the ~70000 in the current reference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.127.217.82 (talk) 09:24, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Question-Gas Phase Chemistry

In the Gas Phase Chemistry section, there are a couple of reactions with the radical, HOSO2. Why is it not named? Miffyz92 (talk) 05:04, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 May 2021

hi i noticed there was a spelling mistake in how "sulfur" was spelled

Acid rain is caused by emissions of sulphur dioxide and nitrogen oxide,

corrected version is: Acid rain is caused by emissions of sulfur dioxide and nitrogen oxide, Mattiaoki (talk) 14:02, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: Sulfur can be spelled with 'ph' or 'f'. ― Qwerfjkl | 𝕋𝔸𝕃𝕂  (please use {{reply to|Qwerfjkl}} on reply) 14:27, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

What?

The result of this research indicated that the chemical reaction between acid rain and aluminum - umm there is no naturally occurring aluminum. Victuallers (talk) 13:09, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Lead

I am working to add a more full Lead that covers the main points in the article as well as basic things about Acid Rain. Emalone66 (talk) 22:22, 19 October 2021 (UTC)Emalone66

"May not represent a worldwide view of the subject"

I've attempted to rectify this problem by cleaning up the history section, moving irrelevant (non-historic) material into other parts of the article, and beefing up the European material. I've added a new heading "In Europe" - and little bits about the work of Svante Odén, and Brynjulf Ottar. I think we could do with more material about Odén, in particular, since the publication of his 1968 paper was arguably the seminal moment in modern acid rain research. I've recently written Brynjulf Ottar (about Ottar's work) and probably not much more is needed here. Hopefully this corrects some of the problem. There's still much more info about the United States than about Europe, which does seem a bit distorted to me (as a European!). 45154james (talk) 14:24, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Make corrections

Spelling of sulphur is wrong 2409:4053:E93:D8F7:0:0:1749:2C00 (talk) 06:51, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

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{{request edit}}

• Specific text to be added or removed: Section 3.1 - "Soils of coniferous forests are naturally very acidic due to the shedding of needles, and the results of this phenomenon should not be confused with acid rain."
• Reason for the change: This text should be removed. Coniferous trees do not create acidic soil.
• References supporting change: https://extension.unh.edu/blog/2019/10/do-pine-trees-pine-needles-make-soil-more-acidic

2600:1000:BF0C:2E80:988B:E768:8ABE:F14 (talk) 03:06, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

 Done Kpgjhpjm 06:19, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Acid rain

Is Acid rain Read real or not can it damage people 2600:4040:9BB6:9D00:6114:8AC5:A0E:3A00 (talk) 00:29, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

tall

precipitation 103.31.155.233 (talk) 07:03, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

Causes of acid rain

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