Talk:2023–2024 Georgian protests/Archive 1

Archive 1

Requested move 28 April 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Procedural close. WP allows only one move request on a talk page at a time. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 06:44, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

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2023 Georgian protests → ? – The article can be called Georgian Transparency Bill protests, Georgian Foreign-Funded NGO Law protests, or some other possible variation (Georgian NGO foreign funding law protests and so on). Titles like Georgian Foreign Agent law protests can be also considered, but it would not be very appropriate since the 2024 version of the law (newest one) does not contains the term "Foreign Agent" at all. Nivzaq (talk) 16:49, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

@Nivzaq: there is already an ongoing RM, so I am commenting out the official tag for this one (to avoid confusing the bot). Please contribute to that discussion. Elli (talk | contribs) 20:46, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 15 April 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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2023 Georgian protests → 2023–2024 Georgian protests – The protests have been restarted after the practically the same law was reinstroduced into the Parliament. All sides are same and the matter of protests is still the same, so it is basically a same thing and there is no point to write a new article. The protests are expected to continue so this article should be moved to 2023–2024 Georgian protests page 38.51.157.23 (talk) 19:31, 15 April 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 06:02, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

agreed, additional information should be added to update the situation rather then create a new article 149.3.64.119 (talk) 10:09, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose, I feel like there was enough of a time-gap between these protests that they warrant two separate events. People aren't viewing this as a continuation of events in 2023, but rather a successor to those events, that Georgian Dream is trying to pass the law again, and now there must be another protest. Scu ba (talk) 18:07, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

agreed, putting the date from 2023-2024 would be disingenuous, as the protests were concentrated in two very separate time periods, with little happening in between. The protests could be considered as sub-articles of a larger transparency bill protests page if the protests continue to escalate. SKELOTONOVERLORD (talk) 15:07, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

I like that idea, reworking this as Georgian Foreign Agents Bill protests (or something along those lines) would fix most of the problems I have about the two protests being in the same article. Scu ba (talk) 16:14, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Support. The protests are about same issue. Terms like Georgian foreign agent law protests can also be used, although since 2024 version of law does not specifically contains term "foreign agent", it would be less appropriate. However, transparency bill protests can be also used since this was occasionally used by the media. Nivzaq (talk) 22:31, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

I also agree with this, I feel like it shouldn't be separate, it's basically same issue just like what Nivzaq said Tamazinoe89 (talk) 21:16, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Support—the article scope is clearly BOTH the 2003 protest AND, now, obviously, the Georgian protests that have continued into 2024. Both are notable, and affect many people. N2e (talk) 23:45, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: There is a consensus to move. However, relisting to look for a consensus on if there is a better alternate article title. – robertsky (talk) 06:02, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Sociology, WikiProject Politics, WikiProject Sociology/Social movements task force, WikiProject Law Enforcement, and WikiProject Georgia (country) have been notified of this discussion. RodRabelo7 (talk) 05:31, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

support; the scope is already defined by the article itself, and the title should match it. i would also support Scu ba's "Georgian Foreign Agents Bill protests" suggestion ... sawyer * he/they * talk 13:28, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose and split It's the same issue but big gap in time and a lot has changed since, it's a different vote altogether and a 2nd attempt, not the continuation of the 1st. Abcmaxx (talk) 14:12, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
• Support It's inarguable that it's essentially the same issue with similar public involvement. The fact that there was a period of lower public activity between the two manifestations is not reason enough to have two separate articles. -- Jmc (talk) 00:42, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
• Support per nom. Great Mercian (talk) 17:27, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
• Support. The protests have continued and are happening right now. GWA88 (talk) 23:16, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Numbers

The numbers of demonstrators were removed from the article, which I believe was correct. Firstly, the anti-government protests are largely self-organized or organized by multiple entities. The number of demonstrators varies from day to day, and there were protests on the daily basis. There was only one large pro-government protest, organized by the government, and they were largely composed of people of public service workers. In other words, the government uses the administrative power to mobilize people, so these aren't as organic as anti-government protests. As for the numbers, at the first peak in 2024, 28th of April, at the anti-government protest on Rustaveli Avenue, there were around 106 000 people, according to estimates using MapChecking.com and drone footage. The next day, 29th of April, there was that government-organized demonstration I mentioned above, and aroud 97 000 people were estimated, using the same methods. On May 11th, there was the second large anti-government protest, this time on the Europe Square, and around 143 000 people were estimated at 22:00. This was the second peak, and by far the biggest one.

These facts can be mentioned in a section, but reducing them down to simple numbers is quite deceptive. 91.151.137.40 (talk) 12:09, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Legal Europe

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 29 January 2024 and 15 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Stdntacc (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Stdntacc (talk) 17:55, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

25.000 NGO?

The only source for the claim, Georgia has 25.000 NGO is the Jacobin article, which in itself has no source quoted for this point. It is untruthful and should be deleted. 2A02:8388:8CB5:C700:ACA8:6FE4:4E1A:EA7C (talk) 14:16, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Splitting proposal

2023–2024 Georgian protests → 2023 Georgian protests + 2024 Georgian protests

Proposing split for the following reasons:

• There is a huge time difference between the 2023 and 2024 protest with the distinct and non-overlapping periods
• The 2024 legislation proposal is not identical to the one in 2023, it has been slightly amended since
• The 2023 were ultimately successful; the bill was withdrawn
• A lot has happened geo-politically in a year
• This time the outcome may be different as the ruling Georgian Dream party isn't backing down this time round
• The protests have been in 2024 much more brutally repressed

Abcmaxx (talk) 20:00, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

I'd support this. I think it's a clear sign of a needed split when an article is covering events in a bizarre way like this one, splitting reactions into "2023 reactions" and "2024 reactions" etc bc the topics are so different. Maybe we could also have an article at Georgian foreign agent law/Law on Transparency of Foreign Influence that would cover the shared context of the protests? HappyWith (talk) 14:11, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Actually, returning to this discussion, I'm not sure. The structural problems actually don't seem too baked in. Lots of unnecessary "reactions" bloat of European and Georgian politicians repeating the same statements over and over. We could easily fix those problems then just rename the article to Georgian foreign agent law protests or something. HappyWith (talk) 22:46, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Okay, I'm convinced by Jmc's comment in the previous discussion: It's inarguable that it's essentially the same issue with similar public involvement. The fact that there was a period of lower public activity between the two manifestations is not reason enough to have two separate articles. I'd oppose the split. HappyWith (talk) 13:38, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. Both 2023 and 2024 protests were about same topic and having a separate article for 2023 protests would be very inconclusive since 2024 protests are continuation of the 2023 thing. The reactions, sides, topic, context are all the same, there is nothing peculiar about 2023 protests which would suggest that are different in a major way from 2024 protests. Just because there was a gap does not mean it is a different thing. Also, the difference about law is only that term "foreign agent" was replaced with "organization carrying out foreign interests". The outcome of 2024 might be different that's why having separate article for 2023 would look inconclusive. Nivzaq (talk) 17:26, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Support Came from ITN, this needs to be split even if the articles are about the same bill. If no split then there needs to be a move to rename the article referencing what the protests are about. WIth the split there can be a third article about the legislation and then two articles about the protests in each respective year. Just having "2023-2024 georgian protests" isn't specific enough. Normalman101 (talk) 15:11, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Support It wasn't a continuous thing. Firestar464 (talk) 22:53, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Support Also agree with you. It wasn't continuous as other protests. JJUPLOADS22 (talk) 18:42, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Strongly Oppose we literally had a discussion about renaming the article only last month, it's too recent. Great Mercian (talk) 09:51, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Could you direct me to that previous discussion about renaming the article? I don't see any such discussion on this talk page. HappyWith (talk) 13:23, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

See Talk:2023–2024 Georgian protests/Archive 1. Firestar464 (talk) 13:30, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. For some reason there was no archive navigator box so I didn't see that there were archives. HappyWith (talk) 13:31, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

The renaming only proposed adding the year 2024 to the 2023 only title at the time, this isn't the same thing. Abcmaxx (talk) 19:49, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Comment didn't we already have this conversation already or am I going crazy? I thought the consensus was to keep it merged but to rename the article something along the line of Georgian Foreign Agents Bill Protests Scu ba (talk) 16:28, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

The proposal and consensus was that 2023 Georgian protests be renamed and moved to 2023–2024 Georgian protests only. Abcmaxx (talk) 19:47, 28 May 2024 (UTC)