Talk:Western Saharan clashes (2020–present)

Background

The SADR is not a "breakaway" state, the Moroccans call it separatist, but it got founded in 1976, by people who orininally rebelled against the Spanish colonial rule. Since the Sahrawis founded their state in Bir Lahlou, a village on their own territory, it is a legitimate state, also acccording to the Agreement of Montevideo in the thirties (dealing with the question "what does it need to be a state?").

The recent declaration by Ibrahim Ghâlî declaring the end of the cease-fire should signify the end of the UN mission MINURSO as well.2001:8A0:74C0:1900:406E:5790:2FAD:5C93 (talk) 18:11, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Good source for background material

https://www.publico.es/internacional/narcotrafico-milicias-resiliencia-guerguerat-frontera-sahara-occidental-invadida-marruecos.html --JECE (talk) 15:19, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

JECE, thanks. I'm bit of a foreigner to the topic, so I tried to work with the sources I've got. Will update the background section accordingly. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 17:41, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Solavirum Thanks! Let me know if you need help with this or other Spanish-language sources. The article needs a lot of context, both about the history of the Western Sahara dispute (the failure to hold the referendum isn't even mentioned) and the events that led up to these clashes (the non-violent protest isn't even mentioned). I don't have time to do the necessary major overhaul myself. --JECE (talk) 23:39, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

JECE, I'd like to stress that Publico looks very biased towards the Sahrawi cause. Remarks such as "liberated territories", and constant citations to the Sahrawi government media is clear enough to decide that Publico is indeed biased. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 00:53, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Solavirum, I'm not sure what you're trying to stress. The article in question does not use the term "Liberated Territories", which in any case is a standard name commonly used to refer to the regions of Western Sahara under SADR administration. Nor does the article in question cite Saharawi government media. In any case, if you would like to find alternative sources to back up claims made in this article, be my guest. Multiple citations from sources with varied editorial lines always help. I shared this article because I know (since I have read about the Western Sahara conflict extensively over many years) that the article provides a useful review of recent developments, while also hitting on key points about the history of the conflict. It's not a perfect article, but I think that it is a good place for editors to find background claims to include in the article. (For the record, I disagree with the claim in the article that [1] doesn't mention the referendum. The preamble starts with "Recalling and reaffirming all its previous resolutions on Western Sahara".) --JECE (talk) 02:18, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

JECE, my bad for not clarifying. This says "liberated territories" (which, in itself, is a POV-term), while this cites the Sahrawi press; both articles were linked in the article you've presented. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 12:27, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Solavirum, thanks for the link to the video. It does appear to refer to "liberated territories" in lowercase, but the video is from Agencia Atlas, not Público. You didn't actually post the other link. Again, I'm not sure what you're trying to stress. The only example of bias that you gave is actually from a news agency, which obviously isn't a biased source. That said, Público does have an editorial line. So what? That doesn't mean that the paper isn't a reliable source. See WP:BIASED. And again, I shared the article because it provides background that editors new to the subject will probably find useful. "I shared this article because I know (since I have read about the Western Sahara conflict extensively over many years) that the article provides a useful review of recent developments, while also hitting on key points about the history of the conflict." I don't care whether we actually use this source to cite its claims. It would be easy to find alternative sources to cite for the same claims. --JECE (talk) 16:22, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

On Algeria

M.Bitton, your recent edits are unconstructive at its best. Most to all reliable sources deliberately quote "Algerian-backed", as done by Bloomberg, FP, Reuters, Arab News, MEM, Barrons, and MEO. In any case, the background section needs to expanded and you're free to WP:BOLD. Removing significant information under WP:POV isn't justified. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 15:52, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

That's your POV. This conflict has been raging since the 1970s and Wikipedia is not a newspaper. Anyway, I have added what needed to added per NPOV. M.Bitton (talk) 15:55, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

M.Bitton those sources are not my point of view. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 16:27, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Date

Why is it still ongoing if nothing has happened since November 18th? Wowzers122 (talk) 01:59, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

IDK, If you want to fix it you can.--Garmin21 (talk) 01:52, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

The war continues. You can read daily updates from the Saharawi side on the website of Sahara Press Service, although not every war bulletin is translated into English. For example, you can read about today's bombardments of the Moroccan Berm in Spanish here: [2]. Feel free to collect the war bulletins and expand the "Course of the conflict" section if you have the time. --JECE (talk) 01:21, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

In that war bulletin, "cuadragésimo tercer" must have been a typo and should be understood as '83rd', not '43rd'. See the latest war bulletins that refer to 100 and 101 consecutive days of bombardments: [3] and [4]. --JECE (talk) 17:15, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

yes but they fail to show evidence of "bombardments" , apparently we are 3 month in war with no evidence of daily bombardments or casualties , and fact they went as far to use death of police officer in north of country due to covid as evidence of this war casualties and take footages of other conflict doesnt help at all, and UN spokeman Call it "sporadic firefight" not to mention Morocco never bother to expand the military budget this year ( it was lower in favor of education budget ) nor bother to call reserve , or mobilize prove opposite — Preceding unsigned comment added by ABIDALAA (talk • contribs) 11:32, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

On the 2021 editing

the SADR Claming they are bombing Moroccan position is not itself evidence , not to mention using footages from other conflicts doesn't help either , Arte had done short video about this [5] as well as polygraph show from alaraby tv that doesn't go without debunking their claims in every episode , last one being here [6] , and MINRSO Hasn't mention anything apart from sporadic fighting since December — Preceding unsigned comment added by ABIDALAA (talk • contribs) 21:39, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

You need to spend the time to find good sources for your claims to make edits, especially if you're looking to delete sourced claims. For example, I know perfectly well that the Moroccan claim that it blew up a Saharawi tank at the start of the conflict near Al Mahbes is bogus, but I have not removed the claim because I have not set aside time to find the French-language AFP Fact Check article where this was discussed. --JECE (talk) 21:18, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Debate on casualties

While Minurso didn't announce any casualties , as crisisgroup claim they are casualties , they use Minurso official as source , whom didn't announce any Moroccan casualties since november , which make their claim nulled , the entire conversation about this topic can be found here .

Hello, you should not censor the source of International Crisis Group, what you triying to do is a POV-Pushing as the source is serious, reliable and independant. These numbers may be replaced when MINURSO decides to reveal the number of their casualties.

The fact that MINURSO decided not to reveal the number of deaths during this conflict is not a justification for the deletion of an independent, specialized and focused source on the subject.

Regards, --Askelaadden (talk) 12:24, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

when you say "decides to reveal the number of their casualties" , you implying they are casualties , while this claim is disputed , that's POV-pushing , MINURSO didn't bypass unconfirmed reports of sporadic firing across berm , nothing more or less , why are we ignoring this ? why are we accepting POV of front that MINURSO is conspiring with one side of conflict ? no need for mental gymnastics on this issue , either MINURSO would had announce death of Moroccan soldiers or they won't , that's their job , to monitor ceasefire and rapport any breach of it , or this going to make the case of first time UN peacekeeping force ignoring hundreds of deaths without mentioning them , please do not engage in editing war because of this :Regards, --Abidalaa (talk) 12:58, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

As you say so well, to avoid WP:OR, please stick to what independent sources say, namely that there are at least 2 deaths during the first week of fighting. ([7]).

Regards, --Askelaadden (talk) 13:02, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

so are we going to ignore the fact minurso hasn't rapport any death ? or confirm your source claim ? :Regards, --Abidalaa (talk) 01:05, 11 April 2021 (UTC) Let me quote what does source say "UN sources indicate that at least two soldiers lost their lives during the first week of fighting" , both transcript of UN on conflict Do Not confirm this , ignoring this is pushing-pov , claiming minurso hide truth casualties is pushing-pov , accusing others that stick to both transcript by WP:OR is pushing-pov , editing something before discussing first is pushing-pov , escalation to editing war won't end well :Regards, --Abidalaa (talk) 13:13, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

We can add a note to clarify that MINURSO has not disclosed any information about casualties.

Regards, --Askelaadden (talk) 13:29, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

by saying that you implying they are casualties and MINURSO is hidding them , something that can be only describe as pushing-pov to say the least , now if your own source cite UN as source , and UN hasn't confirmed it since november , claim stay disputed . and if i was using POV of the Moroccan forces instead of using unknown , i would had use none -Abidalaa (talk) 13:49, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm only sticking to what sources are saying.

--Askelaadden (talk) 13:55, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

source cite UN as source, UN hasn't confirmed it since november , sources claims are disputed then , that's simple , ignoring this and pushing front views that they are hiding casualties is POV-pushing -Abidalaa :(talk) 13:58, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

It is not ignored and it is specified in the note. Wanting to censor the source comes down to POV-push ([8]). --Askelaadden (talk) 14:13, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

note specify they had use UN as source , the press briefing of UN in march and november never mention them or confirm them , you ignore this , you also ignore UNSC that never bother about it either in December -Abidalaa :(talk) 14:38, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

This is exactly what I said before, you use you personal interpretation of what UN said to discredit International Crisis Group: It's totally WP:OR.

So please stick to what the source says. If MINURSO decides to reveal the numbers of casualties, feel free to add.

--Askelaadden (talk) 14:41, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

i fail to see personal interpretation here ? following their exact word is not personal interpretation , as UNSC consultations said that No casualties were reported as well , we know they are can report casualties . Suggesting that MINURSO is hiding casualties is WP:OR , perhaps this is first time peacekeeping force hide casualties alone side UNSC in conflict ? -Abidalaa :(talk) 14:46, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

1) When you try to discredit the international crisis group report by realizing trying to extrapolate the UN statements is a WP:OR.

2) I never said the UN was hiding the number of casualties, I stand by what their spokesperson said :

« Question: Hi. This is Mario. Can you hear me? Can I want to ask a question on Western Sahara following up on what you said yesterday. Does the UN have any information of casualties or wounded people during the recent clashes that you told us about?

Spokesman: No, I do not have anything to share with you at this point. ». ([9])

3) So at the risk of repeating myself, please follow what the sources say to avoid a WP: OR / POV-Pushing. --Askelaadden (talk) 15:08, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

References

Casualties from the article

Hello M.Bitton :

Despite the fact that the article mainly talks about the assassination of the three Algerians which took place in Western Sahara. There is a part that speaks well of the war in Western Sahara that has started since the ceasefire was broken:

"According to an informed Moroccan source, six soldiers of the Moroccan Royal Forces (FAR) were killed following" harassment "by the Polisario separatists since the breaking of the ceasefire." (From the article)

Regards, --Askelaadden (talk) 18:28, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

@Askelaadden: You're right, the title was somehow misleading. I have self-reverted the edit. Best, M.Bitton (talk) 18:32, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Name of the article

Good day يوسف قناوة. As we enter a new year, the 2020-2021 date becomes outdated. As such i have moved the article to 2020-present, since the conflict is still ongoing, and has not ended. Please do not revert the 2020-2021 page and do not move the article. The Polisario front has already attacked Moroccon positions on January 1, 2022 at Bir Lehlou, further confirming that the clashes are very much ongoing. Whatever748 (talk) 02:02, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

@Whatever748: Hello. It happened that I was editing prior to redirecting the page, so when I saved, it become this mess. I apologize for any inconvenience caused. Best regards. --يوسف قناوة (talk) 22:11, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

www.spsrasd.info is not a reliable source

www.spsrasd.info is the only source cited in this article regarding the claimed attacks on Morocco. Spsrasd is a biased source. Moreover, many news agencies said that there is no conflict (as described by spsrasd) in the WS (Source) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Omar.idma (talk • contribs) 09:20, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

To your first point, that's not true. There are other sources used by the article. However, the SPS is unfortunately the most reliable source on the daily course of the conflict. Others covering the conflict, such as the Western Sahara War Archive, have come to the same conclusion: "This War Map is based on the official information about the on-going military operations in Western Sahara. For the moment it exclusively uses data of the SADR War Communiqués. So far the Moroccan government has not issued military information about the conflict. The Maps will include it as soon as it is publically available." [10]) To your second point, news agencies consistently refer to the fact that the ceasefire broke down in November 2020 when reporting on the Western Sahara dispute. --JECE (talk) 21:01, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

The SPS is the sole source tracking the events of this armed conflict, and agencies such as the APS reports and cites therefrom. The Moroccan government in the other hand has repudiated the matter, and has not disproved nor officially partook in the coverage. --يوسف قناوة (talk) 01:28, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

Creating a separate timeline page

Due to its lengthiness, it may be appropriate that an article concerning the timeline of the armed conflict should be created. --يوسف قناوة (talk) 01:28, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

@يوسف قناوة: What do you propose? Do you have a title in mind? M.Bitton (talk) 23:06, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

My personal opinion would be Timeline of the Western Saharan clashes (2020–present)/Timeline of the Guerguerat Crisis, leaning towards the first one in the spirit of other conflict timelines, just my opinion though... NorthAfricanArmsDealer (talk) 23:16, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Definitely in favour of a timeline article, and would be okay with it being titled this way. XTheBedrockX (talk) 04:48, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

• Support to split a timeline article - enough material.GreyShark (dibra) 19:00, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Splitting per WP:SNOWBALL, as there seem to be no objection.GreyShark (dibra) 13:36, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Omar Mansour

M.Bitton I am confused by your recent edit. The defense post article clearly states that Omar Mansour "boasted last year that the group was taking delivery of Iranian drones and would deploy them to target Moroccan security forces." This is not a baseless claim as the defense post is a reliable source and is backed up by other sources who mention the same thing.

https://www.thedefensepost.com/2023/06/27/iran-drones-morocco/ https://www.atalayar.com/en/articulo/politics/european-parliament-concerned-about-threat-iranian-drones-sahara/20221028130917158847.html https://northafricapost.com/65845-iranian-drones-in-north-africa-a-cause-for-concern-for-morocco-and-the-whole-region.html

Wowzers122 (talk) 16:41, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

@Wowzers122: The defense post is clearly wrong. Here's a source that gives the real version version. Even "Atalayar" (which is partly financed by Morocco and clearly pro-Morocco) contradicts the defense post. Morocco has been desperately trying for years to link the Polisario to various enemies of the West and its press doesn't miss an opportunity to repeat the same propaganda that "the defense post" has obviously fallen for. M.Bitton (talk) 22:22, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

@M.Bitton: I see where I made a mistake Wowzers122 (talk) 22:50, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 6 February 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Submitter withdrawn. Lolekek (talk) 00:17, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

---

Western Saharan clashes (2020–present) → 2020 Western Saharan clashes – There are two narratives regarding the clashes, the Moroccan narrative states that Morocco took control back of the Guerguerat road shortly after some clashes, and everything ended after few weeks, this claim appears to be supported by other media too given that I can't find any sources past 2020/2021, whereas the Polisario narrative states that the clashes remain to this day, and the only source for this is spsrasd.info, which appears to be a state propaganda website and can in no way be considered reliable.

The Timeline of the Western Saharan clashes (2020–present) article stopped citing reliable sources after Nov 14 2021, and started to rely on one source directly related to Polisario after that. Lolekek (talk) 04:56, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Africa has been notified of this discussion. Lolekek (talk) 05:03, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Morocco & WikiProject Western Sahara have been notified of this discussion. Lolekek (talk) 05:06, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

• Rename or Keep 2020s Western Sahara clashes. As you seem to point out, it looks like there are sources stating that fighting happened well into 2021. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 08:08, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
• Keep As said, there is evidence of fighting in late 2021, and there are more are sources from the last year or so claiming regular attacks, including attacks in 2022 (see 1, 2, 3). Especially as Polisario has rejected the 1991 ceasefire, it seems like it would be wrong to decide the conflict/clashes has stopped altogether. Quinby (talk) 15:08, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
• Keep The difficulty in finding reliable sources is not evidence of anything. You would need to find reliable sources to back up your claim that hostilities stared and ceased in 2020. In any case, as per above, there are reliable sources that speak of an ongoing conflict. Probably the most reliable source is the annual United Nations Report of the Secretary-General on the situation of Western Sahara [11], which describes some of the ongoing hostilities and how they affect MINURSO. CrisisWatch of the International Crisis Group is another reliable source tracking the conflict: [12]. As for the Sahara Press Service war communiqués, the Western Sahara War Archive of the University of Porto explains the situation well: "For the moment [this War Map] exclusively uses data of the SADR War Communiqués. So far the Moroccan government has not issued military information about the conflict. The Maps will include it as soon as it is publically available." [13]. So that's three reliable sources right there that extend the conflict into 2023 and 2024. JECE (talk) 21:36, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
• Comment: Thank you everyone for your feedback, my point was regarding the Guerguerat crisis which seems to be the primary focus of the article, the clashes that other editors mentioned appear to be spillovers due to end of ceasefire.
  I will withdraw my request shortly given the points other editors mentioned, but it's better if the article gets either expanded to mention the current state of conflict, or be repurposed into Guerguerat crisis only since it barely makes any mention of the ongoing clashes after 2021. These clashes might just be part of the greater Western Sahara conflict. Lolekek (talk) 00:05, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.