This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the 1948 Palestine war article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
You must be logged-in and extended-confirmed to edit or discuss this topic on any page (except for making edit requests, provided they are not disruptive)
You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on any edits related to this topic
The exceptions to the extended confirmed restriction are:
Non-extended-confirmed editors may use the "Talk:" namespace only to make edit requests related to articles within the topic area, provided they are not disruptive.
Non-extended-confirmed editors may not create new articles, but administrators may exercise discretion when deciding how to enforce this remedy on article creations. Deletion of new articles created by non-extended-confirmed editors is permitted but not required.
With respect to the WP:1RR restriction:
Clear vandalism of whatever origin may be reverted without restriction. Also, reverts made solely to enforce the extended confirmed restriction are not considered edit warring.
Editors who violate this restriction may be blocked by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offence.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Palestine, a team effort dedicated to building and maintaining comprehensive, informative and balanced articles related to the geographic Palestine region, the Palestinian people and the State of Palestine on Wikipedia. Join us by visiting the project page, where you can add your name to the list of members where you can contribute to the discussions.PalestineWikipedia:WikiProject PalestineTemplate:WikiProject PalestinePalestine-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Israel, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Israel on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IsraelWikipedia:WikiProject IsraelTemplate:WikiProject IsraelIsrael-related articles
This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Arab world, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Arab world on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Arab worldWikipedia:WikiProject Arab worldTemplate:WikiProject Arab worldArab world articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Jewish history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Jewish history on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Jewish historyWikipedia:WikiProject Jewish historyTemplate:WikiProject Jewish historyJewish history-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Judaism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Judaism-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.JudaismWikipedia:WikiProject JudaismTemplate:WikiProject JudaismJudaism articles
This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Western Asia, which collaborates on articles related to Western Asia. To participate, you can edit this article or visit the project page for more details.Western AsiaWikipedia:WikiProject Western AsiaTemplate:WikiProject Western AsiaWestern Asia articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Africa, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Africa on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.AfricaWikipedia:WikiProject AfricaTemplate:WikiProject AfricaAfrica articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Jordan, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Jordan on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.JordanWikipedia:WikiProject JordanTemplate:WikiProject JordanJordan articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Iraq, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Iraq on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IraqWikipedia:WikiProject IraqTemplate:WikiProject IraqIraq articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Syria, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Syria on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SyriaWikipedia:WikiProject SyriaTemplate:WikiProject SyriaSyria articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Lebanon, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Lebanon-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LebanonWikipedia:WikiProject LebanonTemplate:WikiProject LebanonLebanon articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Yemen, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Yemen on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.YemenWikipedia:WikiProject YemenTemplate:WikiProject YemenYemen articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Morocco, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Morocco on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.MoroccoWikipedia:WikiProject MoroccoTemplate:WikiProject MoroccoMorocco articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Saudi Arabia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to Saudi Arabia on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Saudi ArabiaWikipedia:WikiProject Saudi ArabiaTemplate:WikiProject Saudi ArabiaSaudi Arabia articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Pakistan, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Pakistan on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PakistanWikipedia:WikiProject PakistanTemplate:WikiProject PakistanPakistan articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Egypt, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Egypt on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EgyptWikipedia:WikiProject EgyptTemplate:WikiProject EgyptEgypt articles
All estimates I'm aware of say that thousands of Palestinians killed. For example: Pappé 2022 "a few thousand died in massacres", Honaida Ghanim "thousands of Palestinians were killed and injured (Abu-Sitta, 1999)."[1]
The difference is likely due to Morris' estimate being not number of dead, but number of those "murdered". I don't believe we should be distinguishing deaths generally from so-called "murders".
You provided two references, of which one (Pappé) is primarily based on oral sources. The second of which (Al-Aref) died in 1970s and isn't even quoted directly. Morris provides a (rough) breakdown of the number of victims that died in each battle, and is (arguably, of course) the most authoritative source on this war. I strongly believe that his estimate should be left as is, at least among other figures. If anything, I'd suggest removing the other sources. Amayorov (talk) 06:18, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@IOHANNVSVERVS Could you provide better references for "a few thousand died in massacres"? You're currently quoting Aref al-Aref, who died in 1973 and isn't even quoted directly (WP:TERTIARYUSE). Inclusion of such an author gives an impression of WP:UNDUE, especially when it is given the same prominence as Morris' estimate. Amayorov (talk) 13:53, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Was al-Aref an eyewitness or a participant of the war (a primary source)? Or did he produce any peer-reviewed or even published works that cite this figure? Because Munayyer, S. (1998) doesn't refer any of them. If he has, then it is this work that should be sourced from as a secondary source instead.
I don't want to remove his estimate. I suggest that you either quote a work published by him that cites these figures (a mention of which I cannot find anywhere), or reference other historians directly (such as Henry Laurens or Ilan Pappe). Amayorov (talk) 18:22, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I cannot find his work that has been quoted by either of these authors in any language. Foreign language sources can be used too – in fact, La question de Palestine by Lawrens also hasn't been translated into English AFAIK.
There's no need for a better reference, what makes you say there is? I'm not aware of any reason that we can't cite Aref's estimate as reported by Henry Laurens. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 18:40, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is, because if you aren't quoting a published work by al-Aref, sourcing him isn't WP:SECONDARY. The fact that he is classified as a historian doesn't matter. For example, he could have orally transmitted a first-hand account he witnessed.
Imagine if Laurens referred to many different authors that provide a range of estimates. One of these happens to be al-Aref. If you cherry-pick a single (al-Aref's) figure Laurens cites, and use Laurens' work as a reference, that is source misrepresentation.
If you are confident that Laurens only cites al-Aref or that he shares his findings, then you should directly reference Laurens. I personally cannot check this, because Laurens' book hasn't been translated. Amayorov (talk) 19:21, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Identifiés nominalement comme étant morts à l'occasion d'un combat: 1,953
Noms non connus mais nombre, lieux et dates connus: 4,004
Noms et dates non connus mais lieux connus: 7,043
L'ordre de grandeur est de 13,000, soit un peu plus du double des pertes juives, ce qui fait une proportion grossièrement équivalente en fonction de la population totale. Mais il est clair que la plus grande partie des pertes palestiniennes concerne des non-combattants et correspond aux succès israéliens.
-
English translation (using DeepL):
According to the census carried out by 'Arif al-'Arif in 1958, the number of "martyrs" of the regular Arab armies was as follows:
Egypt: 961 plus 200 irregulars
Jordan: 362 plus 200 irregulars
Iraq: 199 plus 200 irregulars
Saudi Arabia: 68 plus 105 irregulars
Lebanon: 11 plus 150 irregulars
Syria: 307 plus 204 irregulars
Relief Army: 512
Other Arabs (Yemenis, Sudanese, North Africans): 200
Nominally identified as having died in combat: 1,953
Names unknown but number, places and dates known: 4,004
Names and dates unknown but places known: 7,043
The order of magnitude is 13,000, or slightly more than double the Jewish losses, which makes for a roughly equivalent proportion of the total population. But it is clear that the bulk of Palestinian casualties are non-combatants, and correspond to Israeli successes.
Yes, there is a footnote saying "Volume 6 of the Nakba is devoted to drawing up lists of victims and as far as possible identifying them by name." (DeepL translation)
Also I still believe that this "800 murdered" estimate from Morris is not due for inclusion. Morris says "Palestinian losses, in civilians and armed irregulars, are unclear: they may have been slightly higher, or much higher, than the Israeli losses" after stating that "“In the 1948 war, the Yishuv suffered 5,700-5,8oo dead — one quarter of them civilians.” So this 800 number is not a death toll estimate but an estimate of how many were "murdered" (which would be based on only Benny Morris' opinion on what constitutes murder and what doesn't) — "In the yearlong war, Yishuv troops probably murdered some eight hundred civilians and prisoners of war all told-most of them in several clusters of massacres in captured villages during April-May, July, and October-November 1948."
I disagree that this is what Morris implies. The first figure includes armed irregulars (such as ALA). The second figure includes only civilians and PoW. So there is no contradiction between them.
Regarding the choice of the verb 'murder', Morris uses it throughout the book when referring to the killing of non-combatants. Such use is customary. Amayorov (talk) 18:33, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's not possible that Morris' '800 murdered' estimate refers to all "killing[s] of non-combatants". Or if it does then Morris contradicts himself, since if you add up all his estimates of non-combatant Palestinians killed in individual attacks, you get >900 at the very minimum. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 18:46, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Again, '800 murdered' refers to civilians and PoWs only. He uses the verb 'to murder' here (as throughout the book) because these two groups are non-combatants. Or if it does then Morris contradicts himself, since if you add up all his estimates of non-combatant Palestinians killed in individual attacks, you get >900 at the very minimum — where do you source this from? Amayorov (talk) 18:50, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"'800 murdered' refers to civilians and PoWs only" - Sure.
I added up all the estimates of civilian and PoW deaths which Morris provides. The result is that the sum of his estimates for individual killings contradicts his overall estimate of 800. This is something I'm currently working on and I'll present this in more detail eventually.
Also note that "Routine calculations do not count as original research, provided there is consensus among editors that the results of the calculations are correct, and a meaningful reflection of the sources." per WP:CALC. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 19:04, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is absolutely a violation of WP:No Original Research. These are not "routine" calculations, many of his estimates can be double-counted if not done carefully, and some figures he provides are estimates. I know it first hand. Again, you are not sticking to secondary material but are trying to personally challenge a historian's assertion. Amayorov (talk) 19:12, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am sticking to secondary sources. Interesting that you have no concern that Morris contradicts himself. Like I said, I plan on reporting here about this issue in more detail eventually. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 19:21, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You're sticking to secondary sources, while trying to personally disprove them using very questionable methodology. I don't think that Morris contradicts himself for the reasons I outlined above. It might be that you're trying to cherry-pick an author's work, dismissing bits that you dislike. At the same time, you're happy to quote Pappé, who provides no primary source for his estimate at all. Amayorov (talk) 19:33, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How is adding up Morris' estimates "very questionable methodology"?
How could it be possible that adding up numbers is "cherry-picking an author's work"?
Re: "You're happy to quote Pappé, who provides no primary source for his estimate at all." Morris doesn't provide any sources for his estimate either so I'm not sure what you're trying to say or imply here. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 19:39, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Because most of the evidence regarding the massacres come from Morris himself, including on Wikipedia and this very page, yet you're reluctant to quote him when he seemingly contradicts a certain view of the war.
I can't say how you arrived at that the >900 figure. However, it's very easy to double count, because Morris sometimes follows up by providing bulk counts at the end of a chapter. I myself have made such errors in the past. The difference of 100 could've popped up here. In any case, this is a topic for peer-reviewed research. Out of interest, I'd appreciate if you could share your methodology, but this is clearly violating both WP:NOR and WP:CALC.
Re Pappé: Morris provides in-line citations usually at-least once per paragraph, often per sentence – especially when it comes to numerical estimates. Pappé doesn't provide a single source for that figure. Amayorov (talk) 19:57, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Morris gives no citation for his 800 estimate.
"I'd appreciate if you could share your methodology, but this is clearly violating both WP:NOR and WP:CALC." There's no methodology... I'm just counting which is consistent with WP:CALC. Of course I'll show my work to show there were no double counts etc and so that we can achieve "consensus among editors that the results of the calculations are correct." IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 20:03, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Morris gives no citation for his 800 estimate. – because virtually every other number that he uses to come to this conclusion is referenced to primary sources. The issue is counting – which AFAIK wasn't raised by any reviewers of the book.
Unlike him, Pappé rarely cites primary documents in general, mostly relying on other secondary sources (among which Morris figures prominently) or oral testimonies. But this isn't a thread about Pappé. Amayorov (talk) 20:12, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think we have to either include Morris' 800 number or not. Even if he contradicts himself, the aggregation work needed to demonstrate that seems beyond the scope of WP:CALC, which is more for plain number crunching with little aggregation or interpretation.
In terms of which estimates to include, if there isn't a clear scholarly consensus (I'm not aware of one), normally that's a reason to ensure both sides are represented. If it ends up being too much clutter for the infobox, we could move it elsewhere. I can't personally verify al-Aref either so not sure what to do there. — xDanielxT/C\R05:17, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
.svg){kind=small}
.svg){kind=small}
