Help talk:IPA/Swedish/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

German examples

The German words müssen and üben are not close enough to the Swedish sounds presented, and since there are Swedish soundbites as examples already in the article it is just confusing to introduce German examples which doesn't fully match. --Marbe166 (talk) 21:50, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

@Marbe166: Müssen is only a bit different (retracted front in German, central in Swedish, whereas the first vowel in üben is practically exactly the same as Stockholm realization of /ʉː/ (a protruded close retracted front (not central) rounded vowel), so it does fully match). It makes no sense to remove especially the latter. Mr KEBAB (talk) 22:00, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

I'm not a phonetics expert, but I am a native Swedish speaker (living in Germany). If üben is practically exactly the same as Stockholm realization of /ʉː/ then the Swedish soundbite example (ful) is wrong. Can you find a better Swedish word to represent the /ʉː/ sound? In my opinion, üben is the [ʏ] sound. --Marbe166 (talk) 22:13, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

The German /yː/ vowel and Swedish /ʉː/ in the soundfiles to the right sound very similar to me. Perhaps the Swedish vowel starts very close and opens slightly, while the German vowel is more uniform. But the change in openness could just be an illusion due to the extreme change in pitch from the Swedish pitch accent. — Eru·tuon 22:42, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

@Marbe166: German /yː/ is neither near-close nor protruded (so you can't link to [ʏ̫]), it's a close retracted front compressed vowel. I can look for sources if you wish. Mr KEBAB (talk) 22:58, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

@Erutuon: Swedish long close vowels are pseudo-diphthongs, they begin with a close vowel and end in an approximant/fricative, sometimes a schwa follows. Monophthongal realizations are also possible, but I'm not sure how widespread they are. I'm also not sure what change in pitch you're referring to, the pitch accent doesn't appear in monosyllables in standard Swedish - phonetically, this word is said with a neutral pitch, perhaps slightly falling (but only slightly). The monosyllables are sometimes classified as being pronounced with the first toneme, but it's non-contrastive anyway - the second toneme requires the word to be polysyllabic. Mr KEBAB (talk) 22:58, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Please note that this is a help page, not an article on phonetics. The point here is to give a reasonably good idea of how to pronounce Swedish names and terminology for English-speakers. If you want to work on minutiae, Swedish phonology is what you're looking for.

Peter ^Isotalo 15:41, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

@Mr KEBAB: Well, maybe I'm perceiving intensity or something else as pitch in the recording of ful. It sounds like there's a huge drop in pitch, but I can't figure out what musical interval it is, which casts doubt on my perception being correct. — Eru·tuon 16:56, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

@Erutuon: On second thought, I would transcribe that word [fʉ̟̂ɥl] or possibly [fʉ̟́ɥ̀l]. Phonetically, there's indeed a fall from a more or less high tone, about time the diphthong offset ([ɥ]) begins, at least that's my imperfect analysis. Mr KEBAB (talk) 17:31, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

English examples

We read of a distinction between sounds that are "somewhat like RP nurse" and "somewhat like RP burn". I'd thought that most vowels were somewhat like most other vowels; wouldn't it be better to say "similar to [whatever]"; and even better, "similar to [whatever], but [whatever]"? Also, I'd thought that in RP, both "nurse" and "burn" had the same vowel. How am I wrong? -- Hoary (talk) 13:05, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

Phonemically, they are the same. But there is a slight length difference, with nurse being shorter. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 15:45, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

Double consonant sounds?

Swedish words with double consonants are often transcribed as having double consonant sounds, like Italian has. But are there any sources that verify that Swedish has double consonants sound? Aikclaes (talk) Aikclaes (talk) 06:58, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

See the sources cited at Swedish phonology#Phonotactics. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 15:37, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

Finland Swedish

Could we add a new IPA column with Finland Swedish pronunciations? It differs greatly from Sweden Swedish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Qwerty12302 (talk • contribs) 18:45, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Ok, I did it now.--Qwerty12302 (talk) 19:10, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Finland Swedish transcriptions don't seem to be fully convertible into Central Standard Swedish, which is true the other way around. We shouldn't include it, one of the most important reasons to transcribe Swedish into IPA is to transcribe the tonemes and to help our readers ascertain whether the sequences of /r/ and a dental consonant are pronounced as retroflex or not. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 06:52, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Help talk:IPA which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 16:18, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Zlatan rare ?

There's nothing rare in aː and Zlatan. To Swedish speaking users mainly - example "mattan" ("the carpet") - it's just to put "SL" in front instead of the "M". The round "W" in Wales is truly rare, in Swedish though. But neither "a" in "Zlatan" is rare ! Boeing720 (talk) 14:15, 22 November 2018 (UTC) Other examples: "ratta" (synonym to "steer"), "(mar)katta" (an animal), "hatta" (expression, "fumble around"), "fatta" ("get it", "understand"). Boeing720 (talk) 14:21, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

@Boeing720: If what you're saying is true then Zlatan is pronounced [ˈslatːan], not [ˈslaːtan]. The examples you've provided have a short [a] and a long consonant. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 14:46, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

There is no difference in the consonant t-sound. Above all - there's no rare sound in "Zlatan". The name has been known in Swedish since the 1960's at least. Like "W" in "Wales", which most Swedish speaking people pronounce as the British, despite there is no "round W"-sound (in any other word). Boeing720 (talk) 10:08, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

@Boeing720: It seems to me that the sound we're talking about is a phonological long /aː/ that is phonetically short [a]. Swedish pronunciations of Zlatan, Zlatan Ibrahimović and Bratislava (see [1] and [2]) all seem to have a short [a] and a short [t] (apart from one pronunciation of Zlatan as [ˈslɑːtan], but at least one native speaker of Swedish considers it to be wrong).

The thing is that stressed syllables of Swedish words require either a long vowel or a long consonant, and neither Zlatan nor Bratislava have a long [tt]. So [aː] is just a broad transcription of what is actually [a], which is the same as the main allophone of /a/. Hence your confusion. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 21:46, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

I'm native Swedish speaking, however not a phonetic expert. But neither "a" in "Zlatan" (Slattan) is rare. Rare would be "W" in Wales. I'm aware some people use a long a for the first "a" in "Zlatan" , but not himself, nor locally at Malmö. It just like "mattan" (English "the carpet", just to explain the word). But even with a first "long a", that sound would still not be rare. The second "a" in "Bratislava" is not generally pronounced as "Zlatan" - but is in any event not worth mention as rare.

Further i question "Schweiz" as rare too. It is pronounced in far too many ways. "Svaits" is most common in the south, I would say. (as any other word beginning on "sv" followed by an ai-dipthtong and "ts" - the German pronunciation is limited to the German language) Also oi-diphtongs cannot be regarded as rare. "Koj" the fish "Koi" "hoi där !", "boj", "nojja" ("noi(j)a") are not seldom pronounced with a "oi" "void-diphtong" (which may be followed by a "j" or not). It's a question of what's rare and nothing else. But again "W" in "Wales" is indeed a rare sound in Swedish. I don't know of any other Swedish (nor Scandinavian) word that contains a generally pronounced English "round W".

No hard feelings, I simply do not agree these examples are rare. (they might in some dialects, but not in general) Boeing720 (talk) 10:09, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

@Boeing720: But there is something rare about the /a/ (or /aː/) and /t/ in Zlatan, which isn't pronounced as Slattan. It would be if the middle /t/ were long, but it's short. The first vowel is also short, and this is very unusual in Swedish - stressed syllables have to contain either a long vowel or a long consonant. Therefore, the vowel is analyzed as long /aː/ (even though it's phonetically short), as a combination of a short vowel and a short consonant simply doesn't occur in native Swedish words. So the difference isn't in pronunciation but in phonemic analysis.

There's also an additional problem with the fact that long consonants after short vowels tend to be transcribed as short in Swedish IPA as the difference is often not thought of as phonemic. Therefore, it's very useful to use an additional symbol ⟨aː⟩ in our transcriptions, although we could think about deprecating it if we make sure that all of phonetic long consonants in stressed syllables in our transcriptions of Swedish are transcribed as long.

We write these sounds with ⟨eɪ⟩ and ⟨œɪ⟩ because that's (presumably) how they're pronounced in Stockholm. We base this guide on Central Standard Swedish, which as far as I know is considered to be the most neutral variety of Swedish. Speakers of other dialects can read these symbols accordingly. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 11:17, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

Stockholm ? Sweden is pretty much larger than just Stockholm, and the dialect of the capital isn't "national" either. According to how "Zlatan" is pronounced in television and radio, there is no rare vowel in that name. Boeing720 (talk) 17:23, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

@Boeing720: I called it neutral. Wikipedia isn't a pronunciation dictionary, we should stick to the most neutral variant as described by reputable sources. Other pronunciations can be placed on Wiktionary. I'm also not sure whether CSS is the same as the Stockholm dialect. In the case of Norwegian, Urban East Norwegian is not the same as the Oslo dialect (or dialects, as there may be more than one Oslo dialect - I don't remember that).

Is there anything unclear in what I've explained about writing the first vowel in Zlatan with ⟨aː⟩? Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 18:19, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

Yes. It's unclear. Boeing720 (talk) 19:28, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

@Boeing720: What is not clear? Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 21:28, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

Since normally in Swedish, long ”a sounds” make the /ɑ:/ sound, but in Zlatan, since it is foreign it makes a /a:/ sound. In Swedish only the short /a/ is native, except from an extremely low number of words such as wikt:fan and wikt:fasiken, as well as the long /ɑ/. Zlatan, as well as most Swedes pronounce it /sla:tan/, the only other pronounciaion I’ve heard is /ɕɽɑ:tan/ but the only people I’ve heard say his name that way are some elderly, some people who lives in the countryside and most people from Norrland, far from Stockholm.Jonteemil (talk) 01:51, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

Notes

Marcus Chamat

Hi, A DYK nomination has suggested adding the {{IPA}} template to Marcus Chamat; but I'm not exactly sure on how this works (I'm not Swedish, and certainly not great at languages.) I think it starts Swedish pronunciation: [ɧ], but I've gotten a bit lost after that. Could someone give me a hand? Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 09:08, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

@Lee Vilenski: Here and here, I hear [ɧaˈmatː]. The full IPA is [ˈmarːkɵs ɧaˈmatː]. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 09:59, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for your swift response! Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 10:15, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Syllable break mark

Regarding @Kbb2’s recent removal of the dot marking syllable break, claiming it to be unnecessary, and my disagreement about it I’d like to open a discussion, hoping other users (I’m going to ping @Nardog, the only other substantial contributor to this help page in recent times) join to settle this.

In cases such as the one I had provided before it was undone, I believe the symbol can be useful for the reasons I cited at Kbb2’s talk. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話（ｔａｌｋ）） 09:22, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

@IvanScrooge98: I have nothing more to add except what I've already wrote on User talk:Kbb2#Blekinge. I'm puzzled by the fact that you're still insisting on this, given all the explanations I've provided. I see nothing that'd need to be settled here, it's already the practice on WP to use the syllable break as sparingly as possible. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 09:29, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

And I say “as sparingly as possible” is not synonymous to “never”. Let’s see what things turn into. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話（ｔａｌｋ）） 09:33, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Extended content

@IvanScrooge98: I see an issue with WP:COMPETENCE here, as shown on my talk page. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 09:34, 10 September 2019 (UTC) @Kbb2: As a neutral third party, I'll just point out the large notice box you apparently missed from the top of that link: Be cautious when referencing this page, particularly when involved in a dispute with another editor, as it could be considered a personal attack. Nothing I can see here or on your Talk page indicates to me that IvanScrooge98's contributions represent a situation where it can become necessary for the community to intervene when an editor has shown, through a pattern of behavior, the likelihood that they are not capable of contributing in a constructive manner. You may not have felt the previous discussion on your Talk page was productive or a good use of your time, but it appears that feeling is mutual, and IvanScrooge98's instinct to move things forward by seeking broader WP:CONSENSUS is, if anything, indicative of a conscientious Wikipedian who is acting in the best interests of the project. Perhaps you wish to reconsider your momentary lapse of decorum? -- FeRDNYC (talk) 23:58, 10 September 2019 (UTC) Although Ivan and Kbb appear to have interacted a lot for some time now and to have a rather amicable relationship, so I don't find Kbb's reference to COMPETENCE that much of a transgression, I tend to agree. It's always better to take pains to be patient and explain using your own words (not that I've always managed to, but). Nardog (talk) 19:03, 11 September 2019 (UTC) It’s alright, I tend to be very rash too sometimes. (Don’t we all, when our patience is at the limit?) Anyway, any other opinions concerning the question I titled this talk after? Should we keep the syllable marker or not? 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 21:16, 11 September 2019 (UTC) I apologize for that uncivil remark. The reason I made it was the similarity of this situation to this (which ended in a topic ban). I now feel no choice but to report Ivan to administrators. This has gone for too long. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 05:27, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Ardalazzagal said at User talk:Kbb2#Blekinge:

Given that the disyllabic pronunciation of ie in Daniel contrasts with the monosyllabic pronunciation in Mietois, marking the syllable break is probably not such a bad idea, even if we mark the non-syllabic e in Mietois. Also, both Norstedts svenska uttalslexikon (1997), which is the main Swedish pronunciation dictionary, and Svenska ortnamn : uttal och stavning (1991), which is the main pronunciation dictionary for the place names of Sweden, consider Standard Sweden Swedish to have diphthongs, so I see no reason why ‘no diphthongs should be expected in IPA transcriptions of Swedish’. Standard Finland Swedish has even more diphthongs, which is yet another argument for transcribing both standard forms of Swedish, cf. my comment at Talk:Kimito#Swedish pronunciation. Ardalazzagal (talk) 15:17, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

Nardog (talk) 08:25, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

I'm not entirely convinced that a syllable break must never be used for Swedish, but at the same time I can't think of a situation where it would be called for. Danielsson doesn't strike me as one, and Ardalazzagal's argument doesn't convince me. IMHO it is not whether the language has diphthongs but whether a sequence of two vowel symbols can be ambiguous as to whether it represents a diphthong or two syllables in the given system of transcription that should be taken into account when considering whether we should use ⟨.⟩. And even then we can use ⟨◌̯⟩, which is more concise and less ambiguous as it clarifies which is the nucleus. Nardog (talk) 08:25, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

I’ll try to sum up the reasons why I chose Danielsson (or Daniel) as an example:

1. it is also heard in English, with an anglicized pronunciation, meaning the /ɛ/ we use in transcriptions might be mistaken for an English /ə/ by untrained readers—we should remember this is a help first aimed at non-experts (also, Swedish unstressed /ɛ/ can be a little retracted so even the audio files might lead to that);
2. the anglicized pronunciation with /iə/ may be realized by quite a number of speakers as [jə], which as far as we know is not common in Swedish (even though Kbb claimed at some point that [jɛ] is indeed possible, which if proved to be true may actually be a valid argument to give up on ⟨.⟩)

I think we’d keep in line with a number of other helps if we used ⟨.⟩ for hiatuses and nothing for diphthongs rather than the opposite choice. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 08:58, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

I don't think English or anglicized pronunciation should really have a bearing on how we transcribe other languages. Non-experts can range vastly in their knowledge and familiarity with IPA, and that kind of attempt of going out of our way to help them is bound to be arbitrary. We should favor consistency and conciseness. And I don't really know how placing the syllable break could mitigate those obstacles. We should rather reduce the uses of ⟨.⟩ placed simply because of hiatuses in other transcriptions, if you ask me. Nardog (talk) 09:07, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

The necessity of Finland Swedish in the guide

Just like we transcribe both European Portuguese and Brazilian Portuguese, we should transcribe both standard forms of Swedish. Swedish is a language with multiple equal standards and this guide needs to reflect that. There is no ‘neutral’ pronunciation that covers the entire Swedish-speaking area. Specifically, there are two main reasons why it causes problems not to transcribe Finland Swedish:

1. Invented pronunciations. If we only transcribe Sweden Swedish, we will have to assign tone to all names. But since Standard Finland Swedish doesn't have tone, Finland-Swedish names don't originally have tones that we can transcribe. And extremely few Finland-Swedish names have an established Sweden-Swedish pronunciation (with tone) that we can look up (in fact, the only Finnish cities I have been able to find Sweden-Swedish pronunciations for are Åbo and Vasa). If faced with a Finland-Swedish place name, it won't matter if we can source its pronunciation to both Svenska ortnamn i Finland and Svensk uttalsordlista (the latter being the only Swedish pronunciation dictionary published i Finland), because neither of those dictionaries provides tone. And if we don't have a source with tone, we will either have to randomly assign a tone to the name in question or forego transcribing it altogether. Both options are of course equally unacceptable.

2. Impossibility of getting from the Sweden-Swedish to the Finland-Swedish pronunciation. If we provide Sweden-Swedish pronunciations of Finland-Swedish place names, that doesn't change the fact that the Finland-Swedish pronunciation is the most important one to rely. It will usually be the only pronunciation that actually occurs to any appreciable degree, since the vast majority of Finland-Swedish place names are unknown in Sweden and don't have an established Sweden-Swedish pronunciation. However, the phonology of Standard Finland Swedish allows not only for a short vowel followed by a long consonant, or a long vowel followed by a short consonant, but also – unlike Sweden Swedish – for a short vowel followed by a short consonant. Take a name like Kimito. If transcribing it in Sweden Swedish, we would not only have to invent a tone for it but also decide between transcribing it with /i:m/ or /im:/ — even though both those pronunciations are phonotactically possible in Standard Finland Swedish and neither of them occurs in Kimito, which has /im/. In other words, it wouldn't be possible for the reader of our transcription to ascertain the Finland-Swedish pronunciation – the only one that actually occurs in the wild – even on a phonemic level, much less a phonetic one.

There are two equal standard varieties of Swedish, and each of them has its own pronunciation dictionary. There is every reason to transcribe both. If we refuse to transcribe Finland Swedish, we also refuse to transcribe most Finland-Swedish place names, as they simply do not have an established Sweden-Swedish pronunciation that we can look up and transcribe. Ardalazzagal (talk) 13:28, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

Your argument makes sense, especially considering the many Finland Swedish audio files that we have to give up on because they do not match the Central Swedish transcription, but that are very useful to complete the information provided by the IPA. Count me in favor, or at most neutral. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 14:08, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

@Ardalazzagal: forgot to ping you. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 19:31, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

I too find this proposition reasonable, but can we find any sources on the sound system of Finland Swedish other than those pronunciation dictionaries (preferably an open-access paper in a linguistic journal), so we can verify the choice and arrangement of symbols? I think Finland Swedish#Phonology needs to be augmented with such sources before we implement this. Nardog (talk) 05:33, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

I agree quite strongly with Ardalazzagal and a bit surprised this doesn't exist yet. For example, the last textbook for Swedish I looked at (for speakers of French) had a detailed description using IPA for both standards of Swedish. The main reference to Swedish grammar in French also features an entire chapter on the pronunciation of the Finland-Swedish standard. Clearly this is an area where Wikipedia is lagging behind. Jeppiz (talk) 10:31, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

@Jeppiz: it was added a couple years ago, but without previous discussion (and it needed some sourcing just as it does now: it’s great if you have, as you say), so it was undone some time later. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 10:37, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I saw the different edits. Surprised that Ardalazzagal's exit was reversed as it represented the established consensus and the edit summary given by the user who deleted it was entirely improper. The best source is probably the various publications by Mikael Reuter. To the best of my knowledge, virtually all academic publishing on this topic is in Swedish (for obvious reasons). Jeppiz (talk) 10:41, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

I think there was neither consensus on having both nor on having only Sweden Swedish, but now there is at least 3 of us in favor on keeping both standards and only 1 against. Unless someone else joins the discussion in some time, I have prepared a version of the page with Finland Swedish that is not a mere restore from two years ago, and can replace it when the consensus looks clear and established. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 11:11, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Let's include Finland Swedish pronunciations and alongside them add the Sweden Swedish ones (the Central Standard Swedish ones, that is) wherever there's an established Sweden Swedish pronunciation of a place in Finland. One of the main purposes of showing Swedish IPA on Wikipedia is to transcribe tonemes, which FS lacks. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 11:19, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

With all due respect, both your suggestion above and your edit summary about Finland-Swedish being a "non-neutral variety" indicate a lack of knowledge of the subject matter. Central Standard Swedish is not the only standard and has no superiority, as you seem to believe. We don't include RP pronunciation alongside American one for US place names, nor do we do so for Portuguese, Spanish etc. Jeppiz (talk) 11:28, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

While it may be an acceptable compromise on one side, we seldom know for sure what is the Sweden Swedish tone pattern for placenames in Finland (if there is an established one), per point 1 of Ardalazzagal’s opening argument; so we wouldn’t get to do that often anyway. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 11:31, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

As someone who could potentially learn Swedish in the future I want to know the tonemes of words with an established CSS pronunciation. Imposing FS on our readers is a violation of WP:NPOV, the distribution of retroflexes in CSS isn't fully predictable and the tonemes are even less predictable (unless loanwords consistently get one of the two tonemes, as in Urban East Norwegian - that I don't remember).

Nobody or hardly anybody in Sweden uses an alveolar [r] and lacks retroflexes. In Sweden, that's a mark of a foreign accent - or a Finnish one.

Also, you're probably not familiar with the way we transcribe English on WP. Please see Help:IPA/English. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 12:28, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

To state the obvious, it is of course not a WP:NPOV violation to use the correct standard. As I already said, you seem to be under the false impression that Central Standard Swedish is the only accepted standard, or that it takes precendece. That is quite simply not the case. Jeppiz (talk) 12:58, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

@Jeppiz: You're misrepresenting my words. I said that whenever there's an established Sweden Swedish pronunciation we should list it alongside the FS one. I said that listing only the latter in such specific cases is a violation of WP:NPOV - and that it is. It's an imposition of a less presitigious standard (in comparison with CSS, which is the most prestigious in Sweden) on non-native learners of Swedish who are very unlikely to imitate that variety. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 13:05, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Would you provide the source for claiming one standard is more prestigious? As a native Swedish speaker who has lived in both Sweden and Finland and know the linguistic field in Swedish very well, I have never seen that claim anywhere. Jeppiz (talk) 13:15, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

For little that I know, I was also pretty sure that Finland Swedish is not looked at as less prestigious than any Sweden dialect, not even by Swedes. But I’m not an expert so my knowledge ends here. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 13:49, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Alright, I reinstated the Finnish column, as we seem to agree we can have it. Though I’m not sure about how I should put the rare sounds /aː/. Maybe a grey box? 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 15:53, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
Also, @Jeppiz and Ardalazzagal: how does short /ø/ behave before /r/ in FS? Does it lower too? Because in that case a little modification of the chart is needed. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 08:59, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

@IvanScrooge98:, yes - short /ø/ lowers before /r/ in standard FS (I'm pretty sure there are FS dialects that only have /ø/ in all contexts, but we are of course not going into dialects here. Jeppiz (talk) 15:13, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

Now that Standard Finland Swedish has been reinstated, it is time to address the major issue that this leads to: Currently, the symbol ‹ˈ› stands for both (a) stress in toneless SFS and (b) tone 1 in CSS. This is needlessly confusing and can easily be rectified by adopting the common practice of denoting tone 1 with ‹¹›, in parallel to how we denote tone 2 with ‹²›. This is how it's done in Svenska ortnamn : uttal och stavning, a pronunciation and spelling dictionary of Sweden place names. Ardalazzagal (talk) 23:33, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

@Ardalazzagal: it’s not a bad idea. In that case we might have two columns comparing the CSS tonemes with the FS plain stress. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 08:25, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

@Jeppiz, Nardog, and Kbb2: what do you guys think about this? 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 14:28, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

I too like this idea. I've never been a fan of our use of ⟨²⟩, a non-IPA symbol, but given its varible realization it's understandable, and if we use it at all we should use ⟨¹⟩ too. That's less confusing. Nardog (talk) 18:18, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

Replaced it in the help. I’ll start to substitute it in the transcriptions. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 15:58, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Now that we've established the pluricentricity of Swedish, can any of you be kind enough to help augment Swedish phonology's coverage of Finland Swedish? As far as I can see not all of the features of Finland Swedish we now show in this guide are covered with reliable sources in that article, which IMHO poses a problem. Pretty much the only source I've found so far that I can access and comprehend on this is Reuter (1992), and I may help it when I have time, but the article could also use more descriptive/comprehensive sources (in whatever language). Nardog (talk) 01:56, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

I should be able to help, and also add some sources. Will take a look during the weekend. It's a bit ironic that a recent French textbook for beginner provide the most comprehensive overview of Central Swedish Standard, Scanian Standard and Finland Swedish Standard, complete with IPA for all sounds and all differences. While it seems entirely correct at least to this native speaker with knowledge of all three standards and IPA, I'm not sure a textbook satisfies RS. Jeppiz (talk) 15:05, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. FWIW, Kuronen (2000), which I added in the further reading section, seems like a good source on vowels. An English summary appears as Kuronen (2001), but it's too much of a summary. Nardog (talk) 18:18, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

Kbb2 has undone the edit I made after Nardog’s modifications of the suprasegmental section. Since FS neutralizes the tonal contrast, and we have only ever marked secondary stress as triggered by the second toneme, logic would make us think we would never mark secondary stress for FS, or am I mistaken? What do the sources say about this, if they say anything? Pinging Jeppiz again. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 07:54, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

@IvanScrooge98: FS doesn't possess the toneme system, you're speaking as though it only possessed tone 1 to the exclusion of tone 2. That's not how it works. Why on earth would FS not have secondary stress at all (especially given the fact that Finnish definitely has it, at least phonetically?) Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 09:53, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

@IvanScrooge98, Kbb2 is right to say that FS certainly has secondary stress. AFAIK, all Germanic languages have secondary stress, so stress is not dependent on the tonal system. Jeppiz (talk) 12:43, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

@Jeppiz: thank you for clarifying. :) 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 13:15, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

@IvanScrooge98: (Some) Southern Swedish dialects have tone 1 in some compounds and tone 2 in others (as in Urban East Norwegian). CSS, I believe, has tone 2 in the vast majority of them, like Northern Norwegian dialects. I doubt there are significant differences between Swedish dialects (meaning: varieties of Standard Swedish) as far as secondary stress is concerned. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 16:39, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

@IvanScrooge98:, please stop adding your ridiculous imaginary Sweden-Swedish pronunciations to names of persons and places in Finland. In the English Wikipedia, it is totally irrelevant how a name used in Finland is pronounced in other countries. --Surfo (talk) 07:42, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

@Surfo: I only kept the original Sweden-Swedish transcriptions from when that was the only variety supported in the help, and only the ones which were verifiable as such (not “imaginary”, Finland is obviously pronounced with tone 1 in Sweden), adding alongside them Finland-Swedish ones whenever I could (sometimes removing the previous ones if it resulted in too much clutter). Still, you can discuss here in order to never have SS IPAs in articles about Finns and Finland. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 08:17, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

The /ʉː/ vowel

As of right now, these are transcribed the same, but this phoneme is a very salient difference between Sweden Swedish and Finland Swedish. In Finland Swedish, the vowel is close or identical to the English /uː/ phoneme in GOOSE, whereas in Sweden Swedish, it is very close to /yː/ but, crucially, with lip compression rather than lip protrusion (some would argue the lip rounding is the only distinguishing feature). I suggest this distinction is shown somehow, quite often the Sweden vowel is transcribed with a diacritic /ʉ̟ː/. Perhaps this is enough? More info can probably be found in Phonology of Swedish and some Finland Swedish sources. --Lundgren8 (t · c) 19:41, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

@Lundgren8: since other long vowels are linked that more or less differ in their FS realization (such as /oː/), I suggest a note be added to clarify how the same symbols we choose to use here actually represent (slightly) different vowels. I think we should avoid diacritics if we can. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 19:48, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

Fair enough, I just wanted to chime in that as a native speaker, the difference is very salient in this particular vowel, moreso than in other long vowels, which I perceive as more or less the same (save for the /eː/~/ɛː/ merger). Finland Swedes also often comment that they perceive SwS. /ʉː/ as /yː/, so I would assume the salience is mutual. --Lundgren8 (t · c) 19:54, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

@Lundgren8: expanded the note about roundedness accordingly. :) 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 15:50, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

That note on roundedness doesn't seem particularly necessary for the purposes of this guide. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 16:36, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

@Aeusoes1: I could have agreed when it did not include FS vowels yet, but since these are not fully linked to in the table (because as we were saying we are using the same symbols for slightly different realizations of a few phonemes across the two main variants), I think it should stay now. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 16:49, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

"H:IPASW" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect H:IPASW. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 January 17#H:IPASW until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. 𝟙𝟤𝟯𝟺𝐪𝑤𝒆𝓇𝟷𝟮𝟥𝟜𝓺𝔴𝕖𝖗𝟰 (𝗍𝗮𝘭𝙠) 10:49, 17 January 2021 (UTC)