Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Western Australia/Archive 8

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John De Baun

Hello. Feel free to expand John De Baun's page with references. I will also try to create a page on the Melbourne Hotel, unless someone else has more info than I do. Thank you.Zigzig20s (talk) 10:49, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

have a draft started in my sandox that I started awhile ago.... 14:06, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

OK, I've requested a move for User:Zigzig20s/Melbourne Hotel to Melbourne Hotel. Hopefully an administrator will see it. Now, I've also created User:Zigzig20s/Terrace Hotel, but I can't find any references except for the hotel's website--would anyone be able to find more? I am happy to move it to a 'stub' if you are. Also, we will need pictures, but I could go take some (unless some of you already have some?) Thank you.Zigzig20s (talk) 17:31, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Someone's just moved the Melbourne Hotel to its right page. Great news!Zigzig20s (talk) 19:00, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

OK, this annoys me. Their move makes no sense as the hotel in Florida is no longer named the Melbourne Hotel, but ours is. Time to go to bed anyway.Zigzig20s (talk) 19:33, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Your words read very strangely for someone with such a high edit count. (a) You can move the article yourself. (b) Your requests for help here suggest you have no idea about where most of the references come from for most western australian articles. Look at the project tag on the back of an article, you have options of asking a librarian, or using trove. (c) Commons - check for photos there - (d) when creating new articles about western australian subjects - please remember to put the WA part in the project tag on the talk page. satusuro 00:29, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Please refrain from personal attacks. Thank you.Zigzig20s (talk) 21:00, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

If you can not tell the difference between what you call that, and genuine suggestions, we can only hope you will one day... satusuro 11:33, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps we should have a "Research" section on the main WP:WA page, so we can point people there to help themselves. Anyway, satusuro is right that in this case, sources for the Terrace Hotel are easy to find in "the usual places":

• [1] – Advanced newspaper search from Trove, restricted to articles and to WA newspapers
• [2][3] – state heritage register permanent entry and assessment documentation, found by searching the Heritage Council's inHerit website
• [4] – ABC News stories and other ABC pages with the phrase "Terrace Hotel"
• [5] – news stories with the phrase "Terrace Hotel" from Community newspapers at inmycommunity.com.au
• [6] – pages on state government websites with the phrase "Terrace Hotel"

You should be able to do similar searches to find info on the Melbourne Hotel, and most other WA topics. If you need more help, you can get librarians to answer your question – as satusuro suggested, check the Ask a Librarian links that are on talk page project banner. - Evad37 [talk] 02:01, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Useful article

Researching Hotels and buildings in Perth CBD & Metro this 1898 report may be of interest "A YEAR'S BUILDINGS". The West Australian (Perth, WA : 1879 - 1954). Perth, WA: National Library of Australia. 25 January 1898. p. 7. Retrieved 19 May 2014. Gnangarra 12:27, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Terrace Hotel

An article already exists that deals with hotel - check out St George's House, Perth, can remember doing some work on it when I was doing an article on Bishop's House, Perth. I'd suggest creating a page Terrace Hotel, Perth with a redirect to St George's House might be the way to go with this one. Dan arndt (talk) 14:23, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Oh, I suggested more or less the same thing on your talkpage (didn't see this). How about I move User:Zigzig20s/Terrace Hotel to Terrace Hotel, Perth and then we can merge both pages with a redirect? But St George's House, Perth really needs more inserted references throughout all the text, and at least one picture (none I could find on Wikimedia Commons); and a redirect as I said. Perhaps also a disambiguation page, as there is Georgian Terrace Hotel and may be more. When I created my userpage, I was unable to find a page about the Terrace Hotel, so I had no idea there was already a page about it.Zigzig20s (talk) 16:27, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

AfC submission - 19/05

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Margaret Pitt Morison. FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 02:14, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

I've accepted it. It meets AFC requirements but needs a bit of work. Hack (talk) 02:49, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Kalgoorlie Hotel

Hello again. I created User:Zigzig20s/Kalgoorlie Hotel earlier, but after looking at this, I am not sure it will meet the criteria for notability, as the heritage value isn't as strong as the other hotels. What do you think?Zigzig20s (talk) 19:10, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

While the information on the inherit website can be a good indication of notability, the Wikipedia:Notability guideline actually specifies "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list." See WP:GNG for more details, but if you can find such coverage, then you should go ahead and create the article. Plus by finding that coverage, you'll be able to write more than a basic description such as the Kalgoorlie Hotel is a hotel in Kalgoorlie. - Evad37 [talk] 12:36, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Milligan St and the Perth Entertainment Centre

Does anyone know of any reliable sources that say when Milligan Street, Perth was closed between Wellington and Roe Streets? I suspect it was in 1973/1974 when the Perth Entertainment Centre was built, but I have yet to find a definitive reference. Input at Talk:Milligan Street, Perth#When did it close between Wellington and Roe would be appreciated. Mitch Ames (talk) 10:04, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Closed in the 30s according to this page. Hack (talk) 12:54, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Film and Television Institute rename

Film and Television Institute was recently cut-and-paste moved to FTI (WA), but I wonder if this should be treated more like RACWA, i.e. the short commercial name redirecting to the unambiguous full name – especially since they obviously still refer to themselves as "Film and Television Institute" and not exclusively "FTI" (the name in full is part of their logo, see https://www.fti.asn.au/) - Evad37 [talk] 14:35, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Their ABN Lookup entry has them listed - including under "Trading name(s)" - as "Film and Television Institute (WA) Inc". I'd be inclined to have the article at the full name, with a redirect from FTI (WA). Is there strong evidence that they are usually referred to only by the acronym? Is that enough reason to use the acronym as the article name? (How often does anyone in WA refer to the "Royal Automobile Club"?) Mitch Ames (talk) 12:11, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

• Just a note this has qr code in place the move should be restored and discussed, the building is the more notable aspect rather than the tenant Also noting its been editted into and advert the moment Gnangarra 07:24, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

• all done restored to original subject matter and at the correct name, FTI (WA) is left as a redirect and has a coverage in the article until sufficient sourcing can be found then create an article there about that. Gnangarra 10:14, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Buildings and structures by road in WA

User:Evad37 and I have been having a discussion about categorization of roads and buildings and structures thereon. The conversation thus far is at User talk:Evad37#Categorization of roads. The general result of that discussion is that:

• Category:Something Street (eg Category:Stirling Terrace, Toodyay) is intended to include both the building/structures on the street and the street itself.
• Category:Buildings and structures on roads in Western Australia is "intended to be more of a metacategory, breaking down buildings and structures by the road they are on, rather than by type (airport, hospital, etc) or location (city/suburb/town/locality/region)", eg per WP:DIFFUSE.

Consequently I propose making these changes:

1. Change the text of {{cathead on road}} - which appears on each Category:Something Street - from This category is for buildings, structures, and other features on {{{1}}}. to This category is for {{{1}}}, and buildings, structures, and other features on it., to more accurately reflect its contents.
2. Rename Category:Buildings and structures on roads in Western Australia to Category:Buildings and structures in Western Australia by road, to more accurately reflect its intent.
3. Change the renamed category of item 2, from {{Container category}} to {{catdiffuse}}, to allow for articles about buildings/structures that are on a road but not (yet) in a category named for that road (eg, Seventh Avenue Bridge, which is clearly on a road, but for which there is no Category:Seventh Avenue, Maylands).

The question was also raised as to whether these Something Street categories should actually exist in the first place, ie is the street a WP:DEFINING characteristic of the building/structure? I suggest that for buildings it generally is because the street name is part of the address/location, and one could reasonably "define" a building by its street address of "123 Something St". It's less obvious for structures that don't have a "street address" in the usual sense.

Other editors opinions are sought, before we make any changes. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:16, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

IS this done anywhere else on wikipedia - if so where? if not, why here in the wa project? technically the ramificartions are wikipedia wide, this seems to be the wrong place to be discussing this satusuro 14:25, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

These eponymous road categories – where the category has the same name as a road – do not generally seem to exist outside of WA. Some exceptions are Category:Saliba Street‎ and Category:Muizz Street (in Cairo); Category:Downing Street (Westminster); and Category:Liverpool Street, Hobart. The Western Australian ones seem to be only lot created in abundance. The answer to why here in the wa project could either be:

• that WA editors have been more prolific than editors elsewhere (in part due to Freopedia and Toodyaypedia), or
• that these types of categories generally haven't been created elsewhere, because they shouldn't exist

Hence my question before on whether these cats should exist, but so far there doesn't seem to be a convincing reason for deletion - Evad37 [talk] 15:44, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

There might be a reason why they havent been created like this elsewhere - there is a tendency for single area projects to be ignorant of long discussions in other projects about similar ideas - well worth investigating wider to see if something has arisen in any of the USA project area - surely someone has thought of this over there - specially NY or LA ?? satusuro

I've started the process:

1. {{cathead on road}} change is done.
2. Category:Buildings and structures on roads in Western Australia has been nominated for renaming - WP:Categories for discussion/Log/2014 June 7#Category:Buildings and structures on roads in Western Australia.
3. The category has been changed from {{Container category}} to {{catdiffuse}}.

I am assuming that the Something Street categories should actually exist, in the absence of any consensus to delete them. Mitch Ames (talk) 10:03, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Leaflet For Wikiproject Western Australia At Wikimania 2014

Hi all,

My name is Adi Khajuria and I am helping out with Wikimania 2014 in London.

One of our initiatives is to create leaflets to increase the discoverability of various wikimedia projects, and showcase the breadth of activity within wikimedia. Any kind of project can have a physical paper leaflet designed - for free - as a tool to help recruit new contributors. These leaflets will be printed at Wikimania 2014, and the designs can be re-used in the future at other events and locations.

This is particularly aimed at highlighting less discoverable but successful projects, e.g:

• Active Wikiprojects: Wikiproject Medicine, WikiProject Video Games, Wikiproject Film

• Tech projects/Tools, which may be looking for either users or developers.

• Less known major projects: Wikinews, Wikidata, Wikivoyage, etc.

• Wiki Loves Parliaments, Wiki Loves Monuments, Wiki Loves ____

• Wikimedia thematic organisations, Wikiwomen’s Collaborative, The Signpost

For more information or to sign up for one for your project, go to:
Project leaflets
Adikhajuria (talk) 11:01, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Wiki Loves Pride 2014

You are invited to participate in Wiki Loves Pride 2014, a campaign to create and improve LGBT-related content at Wikipedia and its sister projects. The campaign will take place throughout the month of June, culminating with a multinational edit-a-thon on June 21. Meetups are being held in some cities, or you can participate remotely. All constructive edits are welcome in order to contribute to Wikipedia's mission of providing quality, accurate information. Articles within Category:LGBT in Oceania may be of particular interest. You can also upload LGBT-related images by participating in Wikimedia Commons' LGBT-related photo challenge. You are encouraged to share the results of your work here. Happy editing! --Another Believer _(Talk) 20:26, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

I think OutInPerth should have a page, even if it is just a stub. Not sure what else could be covered. I don't think The Court deserves an article, unless it's very old (but it looks fairly recent?).Zigzig20s (talk) 11:22, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

The Court is one of the oldest surviving pubs in Perth, and should have an article on historical grounds even ignoring its LGBT association. I think Connections would probably warrant an article as well, as a very old gay bar. I'd also add Gay and Lesbian Equality as the peak LGBT lobby group, and Freedom Centre, WA AIDS Council and Pride WA as major, long-established community organisations on which reliable sources could easily be found. I'd say all of those six would be at least as notable as OutInPerth. Living Proud (the former GLCS) and the WA Gender Project may also be notable enough but I can't say with certainty sufficient sources would exist. The Drover's Wife (talk) 12:04, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

There is a lot more about the historic LGBT scene in Perth that has been well documented (probably not online though) - and long before the acronym was even known or used, however the issues and the subjects are not as straight forward as current drinking places. satusuro 12:09, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

When was The Court opened? Gerald Glaskin needs a bit of work. Where has the historic LGBT scene been documented? Are you able to name books/scholars? When was homosexuality decriminalised in Perth (in the 1980s?)?Zigzig20s (talk) 13:07, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

The Court opened in 1888. The building received an interim listing on the State Register of Historic Places in 2003, and though the listing lapsed due to inaction in 2004, the State Heritage Database has a lengthy report on the hotel's historical significance. There are probably histories of the LGBT community in WA, but it would be easy enough to write articles on the six topics I suggested from mainstream media sources. An article on law reform would be a good idea, too, now that you bring up the issue of decriminalisation. The Drover's Wife (talk) 14:21, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

OK yes, I think The Court and OutInPerth should have a page. Not sure the activist organizations are notable.Zigzig20s (talk) 14:48, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Well, they're not activist organisations for one. The Drover's Wife (talk) 16:38, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

I did create the Tennessee Equality Project years ago, so we could consider it. It depends on how much political power they have in the WA legislature. I don't think they have much. I've never read about them in the West Australian (as opposed to the TEP, which is always in The Tennessean). Perth as a whole is extremely homophobic. I believe there was a gay bashing in Northbridge last month (or two months ago), and aside from OutInPerth, no one talked about it as far as I know.Zigzig20s (talk) 23:56, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

I get a bit snarky when people start talking about the notability of organisations when they don't know what they are: when we're talking about three long-running health or welfare non-profits, you're still making comparisons to political lobby groups. As for the one actual lobby group, GALE: they're very long running with a lot of coverage in reliable sources dating back to at least the 90s, with at least two members off the top of my head who wound up in parliament. We don't decide notability on "how much political power they have in the WA legislature" (though they have had plenty, and had a big hand in the massive 2002 law reform as one obvious example); we decide it on their coverage in reliable sources and there's plenty. The Drover's Wife (talk) 01:58, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Well, we don't want it to look like an advertisement!Zigzig20s (talk) 02:03, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

How would does that sentence follow from anything I said? The Drover's Wife (talk) 02:57, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Once again on this, the documentation on this exists (there are probably histories is close to the truth) - but not in grab bag and on-line form, the whole issue of being something other than the straight community in perth created various long standing sub cultures and groups of people who were never flamboyant or outgoing for a whole range of reasons. The out - rageous aspects of being something other than straight in the wa community is something that has never had much of a articulate or well documented public persona. The West Australian is the last place to even consider as reflecting either the information about anything that doesnt fit into the narrow scope it exists. The wrong tree is what most of the above conversation reflects. The information is there and the discussed possible articles are hardly reflective of the long term issues of the people who have chosen that path in Perth. The issues of the legality, the posture of the establishment, and the changes more recently - are what really be the concern of a well balanced encycliopediac article/articles on the subject - picking up easy 'grab-bag' visible current phenomenon is hardly a well balanced approach to the subject. satusuro 02:37, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

How would this fit into Wikipedia, though? Having articles on our major, long-running LGBT organisations, and an article on LGBT law reform in the state is an obvious fit; more ephemeral histories of LGBT culture and attitudes towards LGBT people don't seem like something that would fit well in an encyclopedia to me. The Drover's Wife (talk) 02:57, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

For a start LGBT as an acronym has come later than the way the government and the community and the interested stake holders (sic) have used - the issue of personal practices other than 'straight' has been an issue for some time - long before the LGBT acronym was dreamt up. There is nothing ephemeral about the related issues, the Encyclopedia of Western Australia has close on 3 pages devoted to a reasonable overview of the subject of homosexuality. satusuro 04:59, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

If that can be read online, can you please give us the links here? And yes, in academia, we use the term "queer" to refer to practices (praxis) beyond (or outside) heteronormativity.Zigzig20s (talk) 05:10, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

A statewide history article would be another useful thing, and though it would take a bit of work I think the reliable sources would be there to do it. The Drover's Wife (talk) 05:27, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

I agree.Zigzig20s (talk) 05:59, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

the Encyclopedia of Western Australia is a text. In it there is a history of homosexuality in western australia. In about 3 pages, that in itself should be sufficient to provide material towards a history article, which would not require much effort at all. As to the range of terminology possible - the point is the law and the royal commission of 1974 use the term which is what the eventual law change in the 2000s addressed. I strongly suggest before any further speculation or interest in the subject is expressed here, the least you could do is to use Trove - to give you an idea what is what. And if you type in homosexuality and western australia, that should lead you through the various issues that have been picked up over time. satusuro 07:31, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Given GALE WA had a huge hand in the final decriminalisation legislation in 2002, was central to the debate throughout the 1990s and its main actor ended up a Senator (Brian Greig) at least in part because of his association with it, arguing about notability here compared to a relatively recent, entirely online publication is kind of straining at a point. Just to chuck another one in there - what of the WestSide Observer? Orderinchaos 19:44, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Is Fremantle part of Perth?

I notice that Category:Buildings and structures in Fremantle is a subcategory of Category:Buildings and structures in Perth, Western Australia, but Category:Fremantle is not a subcategory of Category:Perth, Western Australia. Is Fremantle part of Perth or not? The category hierarchy should be consistent. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:57, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Also Fremantle Arts Centre is in Category:Music venues in Perth - as is King's Theatre, Fremantle and Fly by Night Club. Should Category:Fremantle be a subcat of Perth? Mitch Ames (talk) 13:01, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Problem - hopefully the woodwork editors might emerge, Fremantle and Perth are separate entities - but Freo is in the Perth metro area. My personal preference would be to separate Freo items from the Perth, and keep them in a tree of its own. I await, not holding my breath, for others to emerge and comment satusuro 02:46, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

I think there needs to be a Fremantle tree that ultimately falls under the Perth tree, precisely because its in the metro area. The Drover's Wife (talk) 02:58, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

On a somewhat related note, what area is our Fremantle article supposed to cover? – The ABS stats are mostly from City of Fremantle LGA data, but the area in the infobox is given as only 5.6 km². A sentence or two explaining the (modern) area covered by the article would be useful. - Evad37 [talk] 03:38, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

I disagree with drovers wife that freo tree fall under the perth tree I think it could be just as possible to be under the WA tree as easily. Also the actual limits of what constitutes freos limits - the city is one thing, but for many it stretches outside of those limits - needs to be clarified carefully somewhere. satusuro 04:52, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure how that would make sense - how would it work if we defined Fremantle as "not Perth" and then Cockburn as "Perth"? The Drover's Wife (talk) 05:28, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

think Vatican and Rome for how it would be possible, its really not difficult to do, or even Kings Park and City of Perth. Gnangarra 08:36, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

• Fremantle is kind of unique as the two places grew with separate identities, had Guildford's identity survived we could have had three places. While external to Freo its part of Perth many in/of Freo still regard it as having its own identity, an identity that recent LGA issues have sort to maintain but clearly since the 1950's Fremantle has been included as part of Metropolitan planning schemes it should be within any structure that is of the Perth metro area. Gnangarra 08:36, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

I think Freo is certainly branch under the Perth hierarchy, a peer of Cockburn — in ontological terms, not cultural ;) Sam Wilson 08:57, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Fremantle is definitely a part of Perth, sure you could use the argument that the City of Fremantle is nor a part of City of Perth but it certainly falls within part of the Perth Metropolitan Region, hence Freo is part of Perth.Dan arndt (talk) 12:38, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Gordon Stephenson's original 1955 plan was published as Plan for the metropolitan region, Perth and Fremantle[7] so it really could be argued that the real top of the tree should be Perth and Fremantle rather than just Perth :) Gnangarra 12:48, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Since that time there has been numerous regional plans prepared, such as the Perth Corridor Plan (1970), Metroplan (1990), Network City (2004) and Directions 2031 & Beyond (2010) all of which reiterate that Fremantle sits within Perth.Dan arndt (talk) 12:59, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

• In addition all the street directories for Perth all show Fremantle as being included not excluded.Dan arndt (talk) 01:48, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

I'd agree... It's a bit crazy when we talk about Joondalup and Rockingham as being part of Perth yet not Fremantle despite being further away. And historically, Fremantle included Cottesloe and Claremont which are now indisputably part of Perth. When one can't define what is one and what is not the other in encyclopaedic terms (beyond a rough impression) then there clearly isn't a real distinction. It's a part of the Perth metro area, albeit one (like Guildford, the Perth Hills, etc) with its own distinct and interesting history and culture. Orderinchaos 19:40, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

It is good that everyone piped in - at least it is a lot clearer now everyopne has added their perspectives.. satusuro 06:57, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Category:Coastline of Western Australia - container category?

Category:Coastline of Western Australia declares itself a {{container}} category, but it contains (directly) rather a lot of article pages. Does anyone have any suggests as to how we should sub-categorise those pages? Perhaps it ought not be a container category at all? Mitch Ames (talk) 09:12, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Please not now - rather thoughtless inview of what you have received as an email. satusuro 11:32, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Well, that was unnecessary. The Drover's Wife (talk) 11:35, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

I had asked an offline question regarding a larger proposal regarding coastline material, however it was not exactly something that I had wanted to be a major conversation at this noticeboard, and apologise that it has evolved into this. satusuro 11:51, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

fixed no longer defined as a container category, which is a rather pointless tag as when adding categories one doesnt see this so unless it has a bot maintaining it it will always have article in it. If someone wants move categories into sub categories go for it. The structure could do with a cleanup we have what 10.15.30,000 km of coastline in WA, plus towns, events, ports, politics and other associated articles eventually there will be a lot of articles over time, during that some wont have sub category even then they'll need to reach the category deletionists minimums of 20 plus articles. IMHO container cats should be at national level or above just based on the CfD's past results and minimum requirements. Gnangarra 12:07, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks - that has basically fixed the issue. satusuro 12:25, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Australia and Western Australia in lead sentence

In most WA-related articles, only "Western Australia" is mentioned, rather than superfluously also mentioning "Australia". Great Eastern Highway had "Australia" added with this edit [8], I reverted [9], and then my revert was reverted [10]. What do other editors think? - Evad37 [talk] 15:46, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

• Evad37's version is better. "In Australia" is clearly superfluous here. Anyone who really doesn't know that Western Australia is in Australia need only click the link to find out. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:10, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

See also this previous related discussion, which resulted in Template:Infobox Australian place being modified so that "Australia" was suppressed for South Australia and Western Australia. - Evad37 [talk] 08:49, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Agree with Evad - there is an annoying presence of 'Australia' in lead sentences in Tasmanian articles as well, if someone is geographically challenged they dont need to take it out on Australia or Austria. satusuro 11:27, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Suggestion - as a matter of policy for the WA project - if we find Australia and Western Australia in a lead sentence - the Australia is edited out as a redundant term and link (if it is linked), the fact that the word Australia is already in the name of the state should be obviously self evident. satusuro 06:00, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Victoria should be the only state where the addition information of Australia is necessary. Gnangarra 09:35, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

There are other Northern Territories and Queenslands. In any case while "Western Australia, Australia" is redundant, "New South Wales, Australia" (for example) is not. Even someone not familiar with Australia at all would probably realise that Western Australia, South Australia and Australian Capital Territory are part of Australia, so the extra qualifier "Australia" is unnecessary. However for other states it is not redundant, and may help readers from other countries who do not know the names of the Australia states. (While readers can follow the wiki-link from the state name, they should not have to.) Consider an article about something in a US state - eg Art Building (Willamette University). Would it be improved if we remove the country from the lead sentence: "The Art Building is an academic hall at Willamette University in Salem, Oregon, United States"? We non-US people might grumble that not everyone knows that Oregon is a US state - and without that knowledge the paragraph doesn't tell me what country the building is. (And it probably should.) What if an article's lead sentence said "JRD Tata Sports Complex is a multi-use stadium in Jamshedpur." and neglected to mention that Jamshedpur was in India? We should probably not assume that our readers know all the Australian states (but would recognise Western Australia etc as being part of Australia with no prior knowledge), just as we would probably not assume that readers would recognise all US or Indian state names if the reader was not from the country. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:57, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

I would tend to agree with Mitch – this is a worldwide encyclopaedia, after all – but talking about other states is really getting beyond the scope of the WA project. Sat's initial suggestion seems reasonable – perhaps we should craft an essay on this topic, to link to in discussions and edit summaries? - Evad37 [talk] 03:26, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

This has gone well out of scope - it doesnt belong here - it was referring to WA and Australia, not the whole caboodle. Could we please have a sense where to start or not on WA specific topics? It would give some coherence to this page. Thanks. satusuro 10:48, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

While the discussion started with a specific WA article, the general concept - of redundantly listing "Australia" - clearly applies to SA and ACT as well. Perhaps we should ask at WP:AWNB or WT:WikiProject South Australia to see whether the "problem" has arisen and/or been discussed elsewhere? Mitch Ames (talk) 13:02, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Ronald Berndt

I stumbled into this inadequate article on the UWA anthropologist and have started to upgrade it. Any help will be appreciated. Cheers, Bjenks (talk) 05:24, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

WA Template with very dubious additions

Template:Transperth_railway_stations

Greetings WA project watchers, on a template that is for contemporary Transperth railway (ok Trains...) stations, there are included stopping places that have not existed for over 40 years. As few people go to template talk pages for this sort of discussion, I am requesting a consensus from who ever bothers to respond - that former, closed and non - used stations be removed from the template as unnecessary, intrusively unhelpful, and not relevant to the template.

I added some in December in 2013, but now see the additions as being wrong and unhelpful. It would be good to have a general discussion as to whether any former stations should be used in a template such as this, as it would assume stations are current active and are in strictest sense contemporary. I think the historic connection of now non existent railway stations to the template as wrong. Anyone else before I remove the historic items after discussion? satusuro 15:37, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Removing the no-longer-in-use stations from the template seems reasonable.

Is there any difference between "former", "closed" and "not in use"? It might be worth stating explicitly what we mean by those terms, just in case it makes a difference. I can see that there could be two possibilities:

• Closed = no longer being used as a train station, but at least some of the structures remain, eg platform. Someone could see that this had once been a station.)
• No longer extent, nothing left. The average person (not an archaeologist) probably wouldn't notice that there had been a station there once.

We should probably keep a link in the template to the List of closed Perth railway stations, but note that article's lead sentence says "...stations that have been ... demolished". Are there any stations, and/or a list thereof, that have been closed but not demolished? It might be helpful to link to that list from the template as well - or broaden the scope of the existing List of closed Perth railway stations to include those not yet demolished. Mitch Ames (talk) 04:09, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Hair splitting could consume vast amount of time on this lot - some platforms exist - or in part, some station buildings survive sometime - what the main concern is first to cleanup the template - it looks messy with red-links and stations that have been out of use for over 40 years in some cases, others less than that.

Usually WP:BOLD would be best by removing all not currently used stations/locations - but it seemed best to at least leave a rationale for changing the template here, rather than no comment all. As to the list of closed - I dont see how anything on that list should be on the template. satusuro 06:11, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind having these in a "closed sections" part of the template, as it's historically relevant and there aren't tons of them in Perth, but I'm not going to die in a ditch over it. I definitely agree with taking them out of the regular lines, because some of them are really obscure - I've got a large interest in railway history and had worked very close to some of these places and never heard of them. I don't think hair splitting over anything beyond "closed" is very helpful - either we mention closed stations in the template or we don't in my book. The Drover's Wife (talk) 06:18, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Basically we need to clean up the template so it reflects current in use stations only - if necessary a separate template could be created listing the array of former stations in the greater metropolitan area - that could include the almost archaeological nature of most stopping places on the old mundaring loop, kalamunda line, armadale to coogee line of old, as well as a range of former stations on the current active lines. satusuro 11:55, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Now that you suggest it, I think that's actually a much better way of going about it. The Drover's Wife (talk) 13:08, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

I think the bigger problem here is what to do about some of the proposed stations on the template, which are numerous and based on pretty sketchy claims. There are thirteen proposed stations on that timetable. Of these, Butler is nearly finished, Stadium and Aubin Grove are in reasonable levels of planning stages, and the Airport Link stations might be okay, although that line is in the very early stages and those stations may well change. Brighton, Alkimos, Eglinton, Yanchep, Mandogalup, Karnup, and Lakelands are merely potential future station sites that are dots on a zoning map and a gleam in a future developer's eye: there is no published timeframe whatsoever for even planning work starting on these. The Drover's Wife (talk) 13:08, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

In that case instead of having one template trying to do all 3 phases - one current, one former, and one 'proposed' - 3 separate templates with see also to the other two... satusuro 13:56, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

I think that's a good solution, with the caveat that I think we should be a bit more restrictive about the "proposed ones", and stick to those that are under active planning, rather than a "this is a site we could use for this thing at some future stage". The Drover's Wife (talk) 15:19, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Unfortunately there is another category - railways approved/planned/proposed and never built, on the WAGR annual reports in the 1930s to 1940s there were railways that had been approved - but they were never built - I think there is a queensland category of such.... that could be another WA template again - western australian railways that were surveyed but never built... it goes on, and seeing the large number of responses here (sic) - clearly the interest level might be zilch by other editors, but at least it is something worth considering. satusuro 04:26, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

Melbourne solves this by having a general "proposed railways" article which has existed for so long that some of the proposals have gotten reactivated and actually become serious prospects. I think this could work here: it could also cover situations like the long-proposed for but apparently permanently ditched South Perth station. The Drover's Wife (talk) 05:52, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

• definately needs to be cleaned up, agree this template should be for current stations only. Would also suggest that Thornlie line be separated as it doesnt stop at all stations on the armadale line and is another that has future extensions in planning stages, all stations should be contiguous with each other to avoid confusion. Agree that the airport stations are still fanciful ideas and shouldnt be on the midland line because we have no indication that the proposed service to the airport will share all stations. really like the idea of templates for past, current, future stations(even fanciful ones). Gnangarra 05:44, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

• the more I think about this the more in need of fixing this templates is, like where is the Guildford line, where is the ascott station, its a mess think its time to be bold Gnangarra 09:06, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Yenyening Lakes

Hello. Would anyone like to create a page on the Yenyenning Lakes please? I could create a stub, but not much more. See this, this, this...Sometimes spelt with two n's btw. Let me know if you are interested. Also, does anyone have pictures for Wikimedia Commons please?Zigzig20s (talk) 12:31, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Clackline Bridge TFA

Clackline Bridge will be Today's Featured Article on the main page on August 30th. Any additional eyes to revert vandalism or undesirable edits (eg unnecessarily disambiguating "<Foo>, Western Australia" to "<Foo>, Western Australia, Australia") would be appreciated. Cheers and thanks in advance, Evad37 [talk] 09:38, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

WATCH needed

There seems to be enthusiasm at [11] - if you are an admin, it might be worth protecting. satusuro 07:28, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

The Atlantis Incident

I recenctly found a book (Atlantis is Missing by Barbara Winter) dealing with a search for two missing German aviators who in 1932 attempted to fly from what is now Kupang, Indonesia to Darwin and through a navigational error landed on the Kimberley coast west of Wyndham. They were the subject of two major searches, the second of which bought the two men back to Wyndham.

Complicating the search was the fact that the two Germans believed (Aparently for several days.) that they had landed on Melville Island and had travelled away from Wyndham in a direction they believed would get them to safety.

The aircraft was a Junkers W 33 named Atlantis. A photograph of the aircraft showing its appearance after it was abandoned by the crew exists online (See: Junkers W-33 seaplane D-1925 Atlantis crewed by Hans Bertram and Adolph Klausman on beach after running out of fuel, Western Australia, 1932). The missing landing-float was turned into an improvised canoe by the crew. An National Library of Australia summary of the incident can be found here].

The incident itself recived much press coverage in both Germany and Australia. The book I found came out in 1979, in 1985 the story was dramatized for Australian Television under the title "Flight into Hell". I don't think it has been re-released on DVD, but will check this.

The book probably contains enough for a stub article. But it looks like the major sources may be primary (eg period newspapers).

I would like to know what the consensus is before proceeding further.

Graham1973 (talk) 02:55, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Definitely, as there was coverage before the flight, the landing, the recovery and the return. See here. And newspapers of the day aren't primary sources, but secondary. Primary sources would be the pilot's logs or journal. An interesting story, that I hadn't heard of before. The-Pope (talk) 03:07, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for finding that collection of news stories. They make for an interesting read and an interesting view on how things worked in the pre-internet period. I've downloaded a selection and will see what I can come up with. Do you think "Atlantis Incident" would be a good title? Graham1973 (talk) 05:22, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

See 1932 Kimberley rescue. This was an old draft I had lying around waiting for a rainy day. Expand and improve as you wish - my prose is fairly ordinary. But it an incredible story. Moondyne (talk) 14:20, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

The draft was mostly done from online resources-raafwa had a really good page on it but that is now a broken link. I have both editions of Winters' books and will attempt to re-cite those items. Happy for a rename. Is there a WP policy on such things? Moondyne (talk) 23:46, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Alternative names can be redirects anyways... satusuro 01:59, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

I think it's fair to say Bertram wasn't the greatest airman. With four incidents in two years, it's probably a good thing he didn't try to complete the circumnavigation. The RAAFA pages can be found archived here, here and here. Hack (talk) 09:20, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

This article may be worth taking to DYK - just needs a bit more work. Hack (talk) 04:49, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Comment on the WikiProject X proposal

Hello there! As you may already know, most WikiProjects here on Wikipedia struggle to stay active after they've been founded. I believe there is a lot of potential for WikiProjects to facilitate collaboration across subject areas, so I have submitted a grant proposal with the Wikimedia Foundation for the "WikiProject X" project. WikiProject X will study what makes WikiProjects succeed in retaining editors and then design a prototype WikiProject system that will recruit contributors to WikiProjects and help them run effectively. Please review the proposal here and leave feedback. If you have any questions, you can ask on the proposal page or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you for your time! (Also, sorry about the posting mistake earlier. If someone already moved my message to the talk page, feel free to remove this posting.) Harej (talk) 22:47, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Commons:Categories for discussion/2014/10/Category:Astor Theatre

Disambiguation issue — Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])

Has been adequately addressed, but... never let an obvious answer get in the way of further discussion. satusuro 23:32, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Open House Perth (Nov 1–2)

Open House Perth is on the weekend of November 1–2, with access to "around 70 destinations and activities across the city". Would be a good opportunity to get photos of places that are usually behind closed doors. (They are also doing an instagram photo competition [12], if you're into that sort of thing). - Evad37 [talk] 04:40, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

This would be great to get a bit of an organised effort to get around the 15-20 that are probably notable for Wikipedia standards, since it only runs for two days. The Drover's Wife (talk) 04:58, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

As a start, here's a list of destinations with (or mentioned in) existing Wikipedia articles:

Moved to Wikipedia:Wikipedia Takes Open House Perth 2014

 – Evad37 [talk] 03:59, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

So it's actually closer to 30 that are notable. - Evad37 [talk] 08:01, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

I still find it funny that the East Perth station gets it own article but not the interstate terminal next door. Seriously though, I think the below destinations probably merit an article (if they don't already).

Destination
02 - Parmelia Hilton
03 - The Gardens at Bishops See
05 - First Church of Christ Scientist Perth
07 - London House
19 - Moana Chambers
23 - WA Rowing Club
25 - Duxton Hotel Perth
36 - Gramercy Studios / Hipflask
46 - Lake House
63 - Heritage House Cultural Centre
67 - New City Library - Augmented Reality

Hack (talk) 01:54, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

I've created Wikipedia:Wikipedia Takes Open House Perth 2014. We could also have a bit of a meetup if anyone is interested. - Evad37 [talk] 03:59, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Having finally uploaded most of my photos to commons:Category:Wikipedia Takes Open House Perth 2014, that category now has 188 photos. These include, from all participants, photos taken of/at/from: ABC Perth, Bishops House/gardens, Council House, Duxton, Cultural Centre, Main Roads Traffic Operations Centre, Old Mill Theatre, Old Perth Technical School, St Denis Church, State Theatre Centre, 108 St Georges Terrace, and One40William. Thanks to those who participated, and hopefully when can be a bit more organised next year. - Evad37 [talk] 03:27, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Meetup 18 -- Tour

Good News... Wikimedia is supporting this meetup so that the attendees can tour the Fremantle Prison at little to no cost. Please see Wikipedia:Meetup/Perth/18#Tour for details and to sign up if you are coming along. Any questions or concerns etc just drop me a note. Gnangarra 07:25, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia Day

[13] - this does not have to be a formal meetup if no one is interested, but even if it was simply a minor echo of the usual WA meetups - it would be good if a few others were interested... - it need not be anything formal - but to say we had one, would be good to have something the same as the rest of the world... satusuro 13:34, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

I'd be interested. Mitch Ames (talk) 11:23, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, appreciate your interest - will keep you posted satusuro 13:17, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Help - cleanup request

I met John Hartley today he is part of a group of people I'm working with from Curtin & UWA on Nooongar language and related content. Its in desperate need of @Mitch Ames: / @Graham87: style cleanup, update and general improvement and anyone else before we get too many new inexperienced editors with potential WP:COI issues wanting to do it. All I can offer is a coffee at the Feb meetup along with being able to go directly to him for clarification/verification. Once its happening I'll organise photos. Gnangarra 09:02, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

What sort of cleanup are we talking about here? I'll help if I can. The Drover's Wife (talk) 09:51, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

I've taken a couple of jabs at it, but it probably needs more work by people braver/more expert in the subject than I. In particular, the article didn't directly mention the people who spoke it until I got there. At some point we'll need to harmonise the spelling of the article title about the people (currently at "Noongar") and the language (currently at "Nyungar"). Graham87 10:05, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Are we talking about Nyungar language, or everything in Category:Noongar language or everything under {{Pama–Nyungan languages}}, or something else? (Or perhaps John Hartley (academic), which also needs some work?) Mitch Ames (talk) 12:29, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

thanks for whats been done... specifically the John Hartley (academic) is the priority, basically its a BLP and the subject raised concerns about the overall article. as for the use of Noongar the language ISO code uses Nyungar but in 1996 there was a series of council meetings where various issues were addressed while both spelling are correct it was agreed that Noongar would be the default spelling in english. I think the best way forward is to use Noongar when referring to people, places etc and Nyungar when referring to language for new content. Not to be too worried about mass changes to current content as ultimately(next 3 - 6 months) its something the editors associated with Noongar project will better placed to take the lead and guide us on. Gnangarra 13:26, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

I've added {{catmain}} to Category:Noongar language. The redirect does its job, but I think the category and the article ought to use the same spelling. Mitch Ames (talk) 03:20, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

"... the John Hartley (academic) is the priority, basically its a BLP and the subject raised concerns about the overall article"
Are there any specific WP:BLP issues that we should look at, eg erroneous or disputed facts, undue weight, important missing information? Style, grammar etc will get addressed at some point, there is no obvious contentious material (given that I don't know anything about the subject, so I won't immediately see factual errors), but if he/you can point to specific BLP problems we can address them as a priority. Mitch Ames (talk) 03:33, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

no major content concerns just the overall poor appearance and minor dated material Gnangarra 13:56, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

See Talk:John Hartley (academic). Mitch Ames (talk) 11:48, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

"a group of people I'm working with from Curtin & UWA on Nooongar language and related content"

Is there a direct connection between this Nooongar language and related content, Hartley's "Noongar knowledge networks" project (or "Why is There no Nyungar Wikipedia"), and the proposed (limited access) Noongar Wiki and/or (public) Noongar language Wikipedia discussed at the meetup in August? The entry here (under Past events) suggest so. Mitch Ames (talk) 08:00, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

WikiProject X is live!

Hello everyone!

You may have received a message from me earlier asking you to comment on my WikiProject X proposal. The good news is that WikiProject X is now live! In our first phase, we are focusing on research. At this time, we are looking for people to share their experiences with WikiProjects: good, bad, or neutral. We are also looking for WikiProjects that may be interested in trying out new tools and layouts that will make participating easier and projects easier to maintain. If you or your WikiProject are interested, check us out! Note that this is an opt-in program; no WikiProject will be required to change anything against its wishes. Please let me know if you have any questions. Thank you!

Note: To receive additional notifications about WikiProject X on this talk page, please add this page to Wikipedia:WikiProject X/Newsletter. Otherwise, this will be the last notification sent about WikiProject X.

Harej (talk) 16:56, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Fremantle Prison GA

WA editors are invited to review the Fremantle Prison article for GA status. It would be nice to get it back to GA before we visit it. Mitch Ames (talk) 06:31, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Well, it's been reviewed and passed GA! Anyone have an idea for a good Did you know? hook? - Evad37 [talk] 17:01, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

...that Moondyne Joe was granted his freedom after escaping from an "escape-proof" cell at Fremantle Prison? Hack (talk) 14:47, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Clean-up request

The Julian Grill page could do with a little work if someone has time. It's lacking references and punctuation throughout, and starts to read like an advertisement by the end of the entry.  Helenabella (Talk)  09:00, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Looks like someone has done a hack job on it. The last good version seems to be this one. Hack (talk) 09:05, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Hack is right, but it'd be good to see someone go through and do this properly - our coverage of the Burke government is pretty shocking and has some recentism issues, and not all of the content currently in the Burke article is bad were it sourced. The Drover's Wife (talk) 11:14, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Virtually no contemporary WA media coverage is available online so this would require actual research, in a library. Hack (talk) 03:16, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Agree with hack, shocking is over-doing it - tis where the confluence between where trove and others runout and others dont fit it.. there are some quite interesting books about that era. satusuro 12:37, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

And if you closely enough on trove, almost all comments above a contradictable - there are trove newspaper articles that are contemporaneous - if you bother to look against names of the usual suspects from that era... satusuro 14:36, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

It's only got the Canberra Times, which is hardly ideal for covering WA politics. It just needs someone to do some solid book research on the key people one day. The Drover's Wife (talk) 16:29, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Fairfax coverage is available on the Google News Archive and the Fairfax News Store but it would be better to have ready access to one of the local news outlets. Hack (talk) 17:03, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

It would be a very good exercise if someone did a bibliography of the burke era - the range of materials is great, enough villains have been adequately covered in text, just not easy to hand on the net.satusuro 23:15, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

In a WP 'containing' search on Julian Grill, I noted there are 40 references. One of them goes to Troy Buswell!! Bjenks (talk) 03:35, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Meetup reminder

Just reminding everyone that Wikipedia:Meetup/Perth/18 is on Saturday... Gnangarra 01:09, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Bus routes

I suggest that listing all the bus routes that pass each bus/railway stations (eg Bayswater railway station, Perth, Roe Street bus station) is not appropriate, per WP:NOTDIR, WP:INDISCRIMINATE. I suggest that those lists of routes etc should be deleted. If there is a Transperth (or other) page with the information, then an external link to it would be appropriate. If there is no such page, then the list of routes constitutes original research and should be removed on those grounds. Mitch Ames (talk) 02:53, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

maybe - I would guess a very careful check of other Australian cities, and also a random sample of something like canada or uk - to see to what level of detail such info is provided there, in which case, from reading the rules or notdir/indiscriminate would be speaking to the wind... and simply undoing a large amount of one editors editing of the last 6 years for wa - where such detail exists in other countries might be seen as being a bit of a narrow poke, and this noticeboard might be the innapropriate location to start this discussion - needs research first to even to get to quare one. satusuro 02:59, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

WP:OTHER may or may not be a good argument in this case.

WP:NOTDIR, WP:INDISCRIMINATE are policies that we should follow - but I acknowledge that interpretation in regards specific articles may be a matter of opinion - hence my request for other editors' opinions. Do you think the list of routes violates those policies or not?

Regardless of the abovementioned policies, the route lists still look like a clear violation of WP:OR to me.

The amount of work that has gone into the list of routes has no bearing on whether the information belongs in Wikipedia - see WP:MERCY

"this noticeboard might be the innapropriate location to start this discussion" - Any suggestions for a better location?

Mitch Ames (talk) 03:22, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Each individual bus route can be referenced with transperth timetables (go to http://www.transperth.wa.gov.au/Timetables → search by route number → download timetable – link at bottom of page) so OR shouldn't be too much of a concern, assuming someone is willing to do the work and WP:NODEADLINE. The services that leave from a station isn't really indiscriminate – it's a short complete list of individually non-notable subjects, which is one of the purposes of lists (WP:CSC), and is perhaps as relevant to the articles as a junctions list is for road articles. How much information is provided for each route is perhaps a matter of contention – exact timetables is obviously too detailed, while just the route numbers alone probably wouldn't be enough detail. Formatting is another issue, could be improved to comply with various MOS provisions such as bold, colour, and accessibility. - Evad37 [talk] 03:51, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

what about being made obsolete there are a number route changes including numbering occurring today, which will make it the 4-5th time in the last 14 years out this way. I would think key routes like 99/98 service, cat services, would be appropriate but the majority of routes are of no inherent notability. Gnangarra 08:17, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

there is still no sign of anyone offering diffs with other cities in australia, or elsewhere - the precedent to keep or remove should be in comparison with other cities of similar size in australia or wherever - do they have unhindered varieties or not... satusuro 09:17, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

My main concern with OR is WP:SYN - "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources". While we can verify each individual route, how do we verify the statement "Here are the bus routes that currently stop at the Roe Street Bus Station"? The statement implies that this is a complete list - but how do we verify that? Checking every route in Perth to see if goes to that station/stand would probably constitute OR. Possible solutions:

• Precede the list/table with words like "routes that stop a this station include" (ie don't state or imply that it's a complete list)
• List the appropriate Transperth network map as a reference for the routes that go to/from a station.
• Do the individual stands have a list of the routes that stop at that stand? (Examples: [14][15]) If so, we can simply cite the info displayed on each stand itself as the reference.

This resolves the OR/SYN problem. I still think NOTDIR, but of course will go with the consensus.

Formatting is a problem, which I fix ad hoc when I see it, but not a reason to remove the information. If we decide to keep it, someone sufficiently motivated could go through all of Category:Bus stations in Perth, Western Australia and remove the excess bold, for example. Mitch Ames (talk) 09:29, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

series of CFD discusssions of relevance to this project

FYI - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2015_January_17#Category:Buildings_and_structures_in_Western_Australia_by_road_.26_all_subcategories

interesting discussion for anyone interested in the components of creating materials on Fremantle and Perth, and how some understand categorization, and vice versa... satusuro 13:46, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Freo Hospital

Fremantle Hospital is need of updating given all the changes that have taken places, will be uploading some photos from this morning shortly. Gnangarra 04:40, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Next meetup

I've started a page for the next one, Meetup 19, with tentative details based on discussion at Meetup 18 today – date/time/venue to be discussed/confirmed. - Evad37 [talk] 10:54, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Forrest Highway FAC discussion

You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Forrest Highway/archive1. Thanks. Evad37 [talk] 10:58, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

A watch

we seem to have lakes that have come for some interest of recent, quite in the pink so to speak...

• Lake_Hillier
• Pink Lake (Western Australia)

worth having on watch as both might suffer from the attention satusuro 23:38, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

unresolved cfd

Also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Buildings_and_structures_in_Western_Australia_by_road remains unresolved satusuro 23:44, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Bill Johnston (politician)

Looks like a handout from a PR agency. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.109.125.137 (talk) 05:45, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Fremantle Prison#Main Cell Block RFC

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Fremantle Prison#Main Cell Block RFC. Is "Main Cell Block" a proper noun – i.e. should it be capitalised? Thanks. Evad37 [talk] 06:13, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Notice in the box above

The Cfd on Sports persons above appears unresolved - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2015_January_30#Category:Sportsmen_from_Brisbane - the perth/western australian component appears to be still open satusuro 15:09, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

WikiConfererence Australia 2015 - Save the date 3-5 October 2015

Our first Australian conference for Wikipedians/Wikimedians will be held 3-5 October 2015. Organised by Wikimedia Australia, there will be a 2-day conference (Saturday 3 October and Sunday 4 October) with an optional 3rd day (Monday 5 October) for specialist topics (unconference discussions, training sessions, etc). The venue is the State Library of Queensland in Brisbane. So put those dates in your diary! Note: Monday is a public holiday is some states but not others. Read about it here: WikiConference Australia 2015

As part of that page, there are now sections for you to:

• indicate your interest in possibly attending the conference (this is not a binding commitment, of course)
• add suggestions for topics to include in the conference: what you would like to hear/discuss (again, there is no commit to you presenting/organising that topic, although it’s great if you are willing to do so), or indicate your enthusiasm for any existing topic on the list by adding a note of support underneath it

It would really help our planning if you could let us know about possible attendance and the kind of topics that would make you want to come. If you don’t want to express your views on-wiki, please email me at kerry.raymond@wikimedia.org.au or committee@wikimedia.org.au

We are hoping to have travel subsidies available to assist active Australasian Wikipedians to attend the conference, although we are not currently in a position to provide details, but be assured we are doing everything we can to make it possible for active Australian Wikipedians to come to the conference. Kerry (talk) 00:19, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Proposed railway stations

Not sure whether the project should support as yet unbuilt railway stations or lines, anything could happen between now and when they are completed - change of locations, names and even cancelling the whole project is possible...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Transperth_railway_stations

anyone else with an opinion of planned/not built items? satusuro 15:18, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

the standard response if it has received significant coverage in independent reliable source, then sure. Practically, I'd say that any large scale railway line or station is normally subject to so much political and environmental debate that there would be much more coverage than on an old existing station. Things like the proposed airport rail line, the Mirrabooka light rail and the Ellenbrook rail lines would have heaps of refs. The-Pope (talk) 16:14, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

I agree with having articles on the Ellenbrook and Airport heavy rail and Mirrabooka light rail lines because the sources on each of those are abundant. I don't agree with having articles on their stations. I think the bar for stations (especially considering the Barnett government's penchant for cancelling and screwing around with public transport proposals) should be that physical construction has actually started (which would include Aubin Grove station and nothing else). All of the other proposed stations are vague mentions in a planning scheme: there is no serious proposal to build any of them, and it's questionable whether some of them will ever be built. The Drover's Wife (talk) 18:42, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

If there are sufficient cites, articles for lines should be created, even if they are not built. Articles for stations should be created only once there is evidence that their construction is likely to proceed. But not when still in the blue sky thinking stage on a 30 year strategic white paper or the wish list of a community group. Total25 (talk) 20:25, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Agree about even if they are not built about the lines - I have created and article about one of the well cited but never constructed lines in Tasmania.

The point of this discussion is that the template was modified, on the assumption that the line will be built ? I think that is dubious grounds, I am concerned that the template is including stations that are mere dreams to date. It is the template that is the concern, and for my reasoning, they should not be in the template until they are completed. satusuro 12:35, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I completely agree on all except Aubin Grove, which is actually in the process of construction. The rest of the redlinked "stations" are nothing but potential sites put aside in a planning scheme, if that. The Drover's Wife (talk) 14:02, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

(I can remember seeing the signs for years about Aubin Grove.. but didnt realise it really is happening) problem is despite this conversation, articles have appeared about the forestfield line stations - 5 years before expected completion... I am not sure that the message here that I left at the top of this thread is understood. satusuro 14:10, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

• modified the template so the proposed line isnt the same as the currently active lines, all the station articles should be merged, & redirected(probably protected) into the line article which should have sections for each station being considered rather than stand alone articles, noting that these stations articles have previously been deleted as not notable and should be deleted as they fail to provide any new information. Gnangarra 14:37, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Do you remember where the deletion discussion was? I know they've been deleted before, but they seem to keep coming back like zombies. The Drover's Wife (talk) 14:48, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
• point of fact - Aubin Grove or Success Railway Station depending on who you speak to, is still in the design phase. No formal approvals have been granted and certainly no works have commenced. The government have committed funding and appointed design consultants but that's all so far.Dan arndt (talk) 15:43, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

  The threshold for inclusion should be the likelihood of a station being built. If as with Aubin Grove and the Forrestfield Link stations, things have progressed beyond the white paper stage to the point where the government is actively spending money and/or passing legislation, then yes, as it more likely than not they will be built. Although obviously we can never say never.

But as for Brighton, Alkimos, Eglinton, Yanchep and Karbup which the government has stated are not on its agenda, and Mandogalup, Karnup and Lakelands that have only appeared on high level planning reports or manifestos of opposition political parties, then no. Total25 (talk) 19:17, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

The likelihood of stations being built sounds like a is a good guideline for proposed stations, but, it would need to be established that the likelihood constitutes actual signs of construction rather than talking... Rail Heritage WA is in fact having someone from the PTA system talking to them in the near future about the Forrestfield line, but even then, politics happens, but in this case I would rather see specific actions on the ground than a PTA spin doctor powerpoint satusuro 00:11, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

• Given my knowledge in this area, I'd agree that the only future stations that are confirmed will be constructed are Aubin Grove and the Stadium. The Forrestfield link and it's associated stations are still only in the pipeline (depending on next state election the line may not proceed beyond that). Lakelands and Mandogalup are 'highly' unlikely, Karbup is a 'possibility' (but not in the next 5-10yrs). Brighton, Alkimos, Eglinton, Yanchep and Karbup are also a long, long way off. Dan arndt (talk) 06:54, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

For those who engaged or are watching this conversation http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-04-21/fifo-numbers-plunge-prompts-perth-airport-rail-rethink/6410452?WT.ac=localnews_perth might offer the somewhat tenuous nature of the projected/proposed railway line satusuro 02:56, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Meetup reminder

Wikipedia:Meetup/Perth/19 in the Swan Valley is this Saturday, see the meetup link for details - Evad37 [talk] 07:33, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

List of Aboriginal communities in Western Australia

West Australian editors are invited to comment on my proposal at Talk:List of Aboriginal communities in Western Australia#Lead section and community types. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:06, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Following on from the above, input is requested at Talk:Aboriginal communities in Western Australia#Lead section. Mitch Ames (talk) 07:28, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Surely someone else has an opinion the above (and is prepared to voice it publicly)... Mitch Ames (talk) 13:25, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Kalgoorlie Hotel

Moved an old draft to mainspace. Feel free to expand it. Thank you.Zigzig20s (talk) 07:07, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

1841 account

interesting an account of event in WA in 1841 Gnangarra 12:02, 31 May 2015 (UTC) "CHRONOLOGICAL REGISTER". Inquirer (Perth, WA : 1840 - 1855). Perth, WA: National Library of Australia. 12 January 1842. p. 2. Retrieved 31 May 2015.

Western Australian of the Year Awards - given on WA Day long weekend?

I'd like to note on both Western Australian of the Year Awards and Western Australia Day that the former are awarded on the long weekend of the latter - that being my memory of the matter - but I can't find a reference that says this (other than the first one in 1973). Does anybody know of a reference that explicitly links the two? Mitch Ames (talk) 03:30, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Try http://www.celebratewa.com.au/awards/gala-dinner-presentation/ User:JarrahTree 06:27, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

That covers this year, but I'm looking for something that says the award is presented on every WA Day long weekend (treating Friday night as part of the weekend).

Buckleys - all government web sites deny anything like archives - all the web masters seem to think we all live today and are not interested in yesterday - User:JarrahTree 07:13, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

A search through archives - checking every year since 1973 - would probably constitute WP:OR. What I was hoping to find was something like the WA equivalent of this quote from the Australian of the Year Awards: "... the announcement of the national award recipients in Canberra on Australia Day Eve." Mitch Ames (talk) 07:26, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

RFCs - Aboriginal communities in Western Australia

Editors are requested to comment at:

• Talk:Aboriginal communities in Western Australia#Rfc: Should the article include a statement about the number of communities and the number of residents?
• Talk:Aboriginal communities in Western Australia#Rfc: Should the article include a statement to the effect that 99% of the population of the communities are in remote areas?

Mitch Ames (talk) 13:08, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

A star amongst us

The only remaining question is which of the Hemsworth brothers will play the part of the intrepid photographer in the Hollywood blockbuster, The Hunt for the Rare Banksia, and its sequel, Dude, Where's My Boot!. Nice work Mr G. The-Pope (talk) 10:21, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

thank you Vicarius Petri for your kind words. Gnangarra 10:51, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Green Rain vs Blue Rain

Hello fellow contributors and sandgropers! I recently made an edit to both the Perth and Freo articles changing the rainfall colour in the weatherboxes to green from blue. I had tried this before in September 2014 but, unable to find a consensus I read concerning the use of green rain in Aussie articles, it was changed back to blue. I really wish I could find it! Anyway, the rainfall colour should be green because it will keep in line with other Aussie articles that contain climate info, because almost all of them have green rain. What do you think? Should it become standard for WA articles? The green colour also reminds of vegetation, when the majority of Perth in summer is yellow, lol. Cheers, Luxure Σ 05:14, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Note there is discussion at Wikipedia:Australian Wikipedians' notice board § Green Rain vs Blue Rain (including humidity colour) - Evad37 [talk] 01:37, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Fremantle Prison FAC discussion

You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Fremantle Prison/archive3. Thanks. Evad37 [talk] 15:08, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Dont bite -- 16 Jun

Hi Folks, just a heads up I will be teaching some professors & researchers from UWA, Curtin and Sydney University today in preparation for workshops that will be happening in July... Our focus will be on Noongar and Swan river topics if you see any issues caused by new editors please dont bite preferably drop me a note rather than reverting outright starting 10am local running until 12-1. I'll clean up after the event on articles editted we'll also endeavour to tag articles so watch out for {{underconstruction}} at the top of pages affected. cross posted to AWNB Gnangarra 23:47, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Interview for The Signpost

The WikiProject Report would like to focus on WikiProject Western Australia for a Signpost article. This is an excellent opportunity to draw attention to your efforts and attract new members to the project. Would you be willing to participate in an interview? If so, here are the questions for the interview. Just add your response below each question and feel free to skip any questions that you don't feel comfortable answering. Multiple editors will have an opportunity to respond to the interview questions, so be sure to sign your answers. If you know anyone else who would like to participate in the interview, please share this with them. Thanks, Rcsprinter¹²³ (yak) @ 20:05, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

@Rcsprinter123: Should we just replace Sydney with Western Australia? What about question 4? - Evad37 [talk] 00:01, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

changed - but yes, question 4 needs to be possible re-written JarrahTree 00:11, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Swan River Pedestrian Bridge

has been in the news recently, perhaps enough for a separate article to Perth Stadium? Anyway, here are some links for future expansion, either way:

• Government websites:
  • http://www.perthstadium.com.au/transport/swan-river-pedestrian-bridge
  • https://www.mainroads.wa.gov.au/BuildingRoads/Projects/UrbanProjects/Pages/NewPerthStadium_SwanRiverPed.aspx
  • http://www.mediastatements.wa.gov.au/pages/StatementDetails.aspx?listName=StatementsBarnett&StatId=9587
  • https://consultation.epa.wa.gov.au/seven-day-comment-on-referrals/the-swan-river-pedestrian-bridge/consult_view
• News:
  • http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-07/design-for-pedestrian-footbridge-revealed/6528134
  • http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western-australia/east-perth-residents-push-for-perth-stadium-footbridge-to-be-shifted/story-fnhocxo3-1227262647486?sv=f9c8557a3561def3e96b655f4c4d9af8
  • http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western-australia/perth-stadiums-54-million-footbridge-revealed/story-fnhocxo3-1227385905502
  • http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/perth-stadium-54m-pedestrian-bridge-a-win-for-sports-fans-20150607-ghihk5.html
  • http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/oppositions-foot-traffic-fears-over-perth-stadiums-54-million-bridge/story-e6frg6n6-1227387226537
  • https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/wa/a/28369245/sculptural-bridge-joins-stadium-and-city/
  • http://www.smh.com.au/comment/larry-graham-the-curious-case-of-a-broke-government-and-the-new-perth-stadium-20150608-ghjdpr.html
  • http://www.news.com.au/national/western-australia-builds-footbridge-twice-the-length-of-adelaides-for-just-14m-more/story-e6frfkp9-1227387509041

- Evad37 [talk] 10:07, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Started at Swan River Pedestrian Bridge - Evad37 [talk] 02:57, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Eoin Cameron

Western Australian editors are invited to comment at WT:BLP#Eoin Cameron. Mitch Ames (talk) 02:05, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Wiki Loves Pride

You are invited to participate in Wiki Loves Pride!

• What? Wiki Loves Pride, a campaign to document and photograph LGBT culture and history, including pride events
• When? June 2015
• How can you help?

  1.) Create or improve LGBT-related articles and showcase the results of your work here

  2.) Upload photographs or other media related to LGBT culture and history, including pride events, and add images to relevant Wikipedia articles; feel free to create a subpage with a gallery of your images (see examples from last year)

  3.) Contribute to an LGBT-related task force at another Wikimedia project (Wikidata, Wikimedia Commons, Wikivoyage, etc.)

Or, view or update the current list of Tasks. This campaign is supported by the Wikimedia LGBT+ User Group, an officially recognized affiliate of the Wikimedia Foundation. Visit the group's page at Meta-Wiki for more information, or follow Wikimedia LGBT+ on Facebook. Remember, Wiki Loves Pride is about creating and improving LGBT-related content at Wikimedia projects, and content should have a neutral point of view. One does not need to identify as LGBT or any other gender or sexual minority to participate. This campaign is about adding accurate, reliable information to Wikipedia, plain and simple, and all are welcome!

If you have any questions, please leave a message on the campaign's main talk page.

Thanks, and happy editing!

User:Another Believer and User:OR drohowa

River drainage basins

Recent edits in the Tasmanian project has seen a new template relating to rivers and where they drain Template:Rivers_of_Tasmania

In 2012 there was a discussion about drainage divisions or systems here in WA - Template_talk:Rivers_of_Western_Australia it went nowhere

and we are left with Template:Rivers of Western Australia

As there is the possibility of arbitrary or external editing on our rather region/division free created template, do any eds who read here have any opinions as to whether we have a specific WA project decision as to which system we align to before some bold editor from outside proceeds to create a drainage system that does not relate to how the average western australian editor can understand our rather complex and large range of rivers? JarrahTree 15:02, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

I can't say I have strong opinions on the categorisation of rivers and have been happy to let the river nerds do their thing, but if other WA people would rather keep it as it is I'd support that too. The Drover's Wife (talk) 15:40, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Nothing to do with river nerds - the issue ties in with a complex array of categories relating to how the regions of western australia are identified and how they are represented in the project over-all. Vast lists we have in relation to pastoral leases, islands and so on, and a range of editors who are not necessarily nerds of any sort, have tried in time to specifically organise information to make it relatively accessible for the reader of the encyclopedia that this is - if you look to see the improvements on the Tasmanian project in the last month, you will understand what I mean by accessibility, the improved templates and organisation of the project, has come an astonishing long way from what it was a year ago.

Likewise, here in Western Australia, some range of topics, templates or categories do need a 'division' between either regions - created by government, or natural geographic divisions, as the sheer volume is difficult to wade through. In other words, I do not believe it is the perogative of the group of editors who might (or not) respond. it is much more a case of where any editor of any interest might be able to offer a positive or negative response to tie in means of dividing a large number of features, rivers or whatever. Hope that explains.JarrahTree 07:36, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Copyright Violation Detection - EranBot Project

A new copy-paste detection bot is now in general use on English Wikipedia. Come check it out at the EranBot reporting page. This bot utilizes the Turnitin software (ithenticate), unlike User:CorenSearchBot that relies on a web search API from Yahoo. It checks individual edits rather than just new articles. Please take 15 seconds to visit the EranBot reporting page and check a few of the flagged concerns. Comments welcome regarding potential improvements. These likely copyright violations can be searched by WikiProject categories. Use "control-f" to jump to your area of interest (if such a copyvio is present).--Lucas559 (talk) 16:22, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Wikiconference Australia 2015 cancelled

Folks, just letting you know we will not be proceeding with Wikiconference Australia 2015 originally proposed for 3-5 October 2015. Thanks to those of you who expressed your support. You are free to attend the football finals instead :-) Kerry (talk) 08:14, 3 July 2015 (UTC)