Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Motorsport/History of Motorsport

Remit, anyone?

Blimey, Christening a talk page... Well lets get the ball rolling by deciding just what we want HoM to be, shall we? No right or wrong answers to any questions, of course, I just want to see how people are thinking! Basics first:

How are we distinct from WP:MS?

Sounds simple, but as pretty much everything that happened before this season could, in theory, be termed "history"; what makes HoM special? Are we concerned with depth or significance, or are we thinking mostly of broad coverage of "old stuff"? For example: a 1987 Lancia Delta Integrale is probably considered a "classic" car, while a 1987 Fiat Panda isn't; on the other hand a 1965 Fiat 500 (broadly fills the same socio-economic niche as the Panda) is most certainly a classic. Is that just because of age, some ineffable aspect of carisma (pun intended), or a combination? This leads into...

How do we define "historic" or "history"?

Are we looking at a rolling-duration cut-off (e.g. ten years hence), breaking at the major technological boundaries (e.g. end of GpC in sportscars, banning of electronic driver aids in F1, introduction of WRC rules in rallying etc.) or some other criteria?

As a suggestion, how about considering things prior to the organised championships? e.g. The events that lead up to the F1WC (pre-1950), the pre-NASCAR days (pre-1948), the pre-USAC stuff for AOWR (pre-1956). Of course the first season of the F1WC in 1950 is probably considered just as historic as the 1949 Grand Prix season so perhaps this is far too strict a criteria. Difficult isn't it... AlexJ 13:04, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I would call the 1970s historic, so I guess opinions might well vary wildly here! Readro 21:34, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Same here, you'll notice that all the technology boundaries which I mentioned fell in the 1990s! Pyrope 06:33, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest that all organizational forms of major motorsport that are no longer current would fall under the perusal of the taskforce. AAA and USAC sanctioning of the Indy 500, HoM. Formula One, on the other hand, is "current" back to 1950. Thoughts? --Chr.K. 20:52, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

As an outsider, who was tagging pre-1950 Italian Grand Prix articles with the Italy Project and then assigned them here as well, might I offer my 2p? When I saw this taskforce existed, I assumed it was primarily concerned with pre-WWII motorsport, or perhaps extending into the classic era from the early 50's to late 60's. Technically the 2008 Bahrain Grand Prix is now "history", but that doesn't mean this t/f should concern itself with such races. Also, don't forget that the Motorsport Project is designed as a "catch-all" Project, to fill in the gaps that aren't covered by more specialist Projects, and I'd suggest that people make the most of that freedom rather than following the mainstream. For instance, noone would doubt the history-changing importance of the Audi Quattro, Lotus 25 or Manx Norton - but they've got the Rally, F1 and Motorcycling Projects to look after them (although I can't quite believe that the Manx Norton doesn't have a dedicated article). And in any case cars like the Blower Bentleys have the Automobiles Project to look after them. But the likes of the 1907 Peking to Paris or British racing green articles don't have anyone to specifically look after them - in fact both those articles are in reasonable shape, but there must be many similar articles that aren't. So I'd concentrate on answering historians' questions such as when?, where?, who? - events, circuits, and motorsport people, that aren't covered by the sub-projects. So you're pretty safe with anything pre-WWII, and then there will be a fuzzy area in 1945-70 for different disciplines - there's lots of people who are interested in F1 from 1950, but the WRC wasn't formed until 1973, although the Monte Carlo Rally goes back to 1911. I guess it's just a question of starting at the beginning and working forwards until you run into people from the specialist projects who are working backwards. :-) But the nice thing about being in a Project like this is that it enourages you to "fill in the gaps", work on the articles that noone else has bothered with - and they can be the most interesting by-ways of a subject. For instance, if single-seat racing is your thing, you might set yourself the task of making a Start-class article on every circuit used for a Grand Prix before 1950. Now some like Monza will obviously have had a lot of attention already, but there doesn't seem to be an article on the circuits at Brescia, Livorno, Milan and Turin that have also hosted the Italian GP. Then you might want to move on to the winners of those races, and so on. Similarly if you're into sportscars, you could ensure there's a Start article on "every winner of the Mille Miglia" for example, or technology fans might go for some of the suppliers, like Amherst Villiers who put the "blow" into the Blower Bentleys. Anyway, just some ideas for you, I'll now withdraw back to my "home" Wikiprojects.;-/ But certainly it sounds like our younger Wikipedians should start by just having a read around some of the existing articles to get a bit of perspective - you can't really call yourself a fan of motorracing if you don't know, for instance, why Fangio and John Surtees were so special. FlagSteward (talk) 18:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

How will HoM operate?

Are we a "Wikiproject lite", with maintainence of infoboxes, page architecture, protocols etc., or are we solely a loose collective of likeminded individuals, providing mutual support and advice?

Like I said, I'm just after an insight into where we might be going with this. Nothing binding on any front, so fire away! Pyrope 10:47, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I'd say a mixture - mostly the latter but with the opportunity for the former on occasion when necessary. Readro 21:34, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Taskforce tag

Hi, me again. I have created the code for adding a History of Motorsport taskforce banner to the {{WikiProject Motorsport}} template. By adding |ms-history-taskforce=yes to the template syntax on each appropriate talk page you both add the banner and categorise the page. These functions can of course be imported into other WP:MS daughter project tags, or we can create a HoM standalone if we ever feel the need. I have drawn up a category tree for HoM articles to drop articles in to, so there ought to be no red link problems (of course there might be... please let me know!). Please see Talk:Lofty England for an example of this tag in use. Any and all comments would be great! In particular, I just grabbed the first old photo which sprang to mind, so if you would prefer another then that's fine. Pyrope 11:07, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I am concerned that the photo used might have been stolen from other website by the flickr uploader. How about we use something that is Public Domain the U.S. so there is definitely no problem, such as Image:DarioRestaSunbeam1913.jpg. Otherwise any photo published before 1923 is good in the U.S. I need some time to consider what is "historic". The tag works well the way you set it up. Royalbroil 14:21, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

A good point. Just to be on the safe side I have changed the image as you suggested. I actually like it better! Pyrope 14:42, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Well done! Readro 21:34, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I've thought about what is historic racing. Two criteria come to mind. 1) First, racing earlier than 1950 come to mind as a good time frame from the U.S. perspective. NASCAR was formed in 1948/1949, and other sanctioning bodies got their act together around that time. Pre-1950 is also right for the drivers. Top drivers after 1950 were very professional, were able to race as their full-time job, and became well-known to the public (some even to today). The same is not usually said of drivers before 1950. 2) Second, other major series that ended before 1980 like CanAm. Drivers and series that still exist (even in a somewhat different form) from before 1950 would not be included in the list. For example, American Automobile Association is part of WP:AOWR, the first years of NASCAR is part of WP:NASCAR, etc. Royalbroil 16:47, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

To me, history is anything that does not form part of the "modern era". I would say that anything before one generation, commonly considered 25 years, should be considered history. Readro 22:00, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

But information on such things could be theoretically included in the pages and projects pertaining the specific subjects. Things that don't exist anymore (AAA auto racing sanctioning, for instance) would make more sense to be under Motorsports History. Literally, "what used to be." Then again...USAC used to control the American national championship, and USAC sanctioning of the Race only ended in 1997, not very long ago. --Chr.K. (talk) 22:36, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Modern historic racing and events

As part of what should define HoM, perhaps articles on modern historic series would be a good area? Historic Sportscar Racing in the US, GT90's Revival and Classic Endurance Racing in the US, Le Mans Legend and Le Mans Classic are a few examples, using machinery ranging from the 1950s to 1990s. Monterey Historics? Pebble Beach Concours? The359 23:08, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I have been thinking about this for a while, esepcially since my Silverstone/Donington orgy of poor-quality photography last month, and I think you have a point. The historic racing scene is growing like Topsy, and is even starting to get some national press coverage on occasion. The Le Mans Classic, as you mention, and the Monaco Historic are covered particularly well. We already have a slightly-better-than-stub article on the Goodwood Festival of Speed and other major meetings might be worth their own. Major organisations might also be worth a page (Masters Racing Series, Group C GTP Racing, VSCC, and others), but I'm less sure of that. To me, it sounds like we need a parent page for Historic motor racing or Historic motorsport, out of which we can spin sub-pages if there appears to be enough material to justify it. One final point I'd like to make is that we need to try very, very hard to ensure that we comply with notablity and referencing. All three of the articles which have been linked above have major problems on this front. Pyrope 07:07, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. It actually appears that someone did create a page, although it is rather short and may even carry a title that is not the best: Historical racing. Other pages in need of improvement are FIA Thoroughbred Grand Prix Championship and Oldtimer Grand Prix. What about a series like BOSS, which isn't that old but is still a historical series? The359 07:26, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Ah, now that will be why I couldn't find it. A title can always be changed. Well, that gets us started. For historic F1 there are so many sanctioning bodies (TGP, HGPCA, GPM, BOSS, HGP, that's only those which operate in the UK and US) that I'm not sure how to tackle it. TGP is obviously a bit different, being the only truely international body, but they are limited to 3.0L cars. I was wondering whether we shouldn't have a Historic Grand Prix racing page, and then break it down into eras on the page. Each era would then mention the appropriate sanctioning bodies around the world, with "see also" links to those organisations which merit it. What do you think? Pyrope 07:56, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

TGP is now known as Historic Formula One so that page could use a move, and the FIA bit should be dropped from the name. I think we ought to move Historical racing to Historic motorsport. Readro 09:36, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

The series home page still lists it as an FIA event. And I'd also prefer "motorsport" for the rename, keeps the page remit nice and broad. Pyrope 09:51, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Yup, it's an FIA series, but I don't think that FIA should be included in the page name. We don't have an "FIA Formula One" page. Readro 10:06, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I see your point. Pyrope 10:25, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

A possible task for History of Motorsport

I figure this might be a good task for History of Motorsport, especially since it goes well beyond my era of knowledge. The List of 24 Hours of Le Mans winners shows the drivers, of which we have pages for all of them from the post-WWII era. However, pre-war seems to be missing a few, most notably the winners of the very first Le Mans. I'm not sure where to find information on these but I'm sure that some of you might know more about it. The following drivers are currently missing:

• André Lagache, French, 1923
• René Léonard, French, 1923
• Frank Clement (racing driver), British, 1924, one of the Bentley Boys
• Gérard de Courcelles, French, 1925
• André Rossignol, French, 1925 & 1926
• Robert Bloch (racing driver), French, 1926
• Bernard Rubin, British, 1928, one of the Bentley Boys
• Luis Fontés, British, 1935

Any help on completing the list of Le Mans winners would be greatly appreciated. The359 08:59, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Czechoslovakian/Masaryk Grand Prix

I notice we have an article for the 1937 Czechoslovakian Grand Prix. However the equivalent entry on the 1937 Grand Prix Season red-links the race report to 1937 Masaryk Grand Prix. The official race title was "VII VELKÁ CENA MASARYKOVA" so to me Masaryk Grand Prix appears the correct title. Therefore I was going to move 1937 Czechoslovakian Grand Prix to 1937 Masaryk Grand Prix. However I notice that Masaryk Grand Prix in the season article wikilinks to Czechoslovakian Grand Prix. Is one title more correct than the other, and if so which one is it. AlexJ 20:28, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

As far as I know, it was known as the Masaryk Grand Prix. Readro 21:11, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

That appears to be the correct title. Anyone any other examples of how we deal with races named after people? Pyrope 08:28, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I thought the race was named after the circuit, which was named after the person. Anyway, I've had a look to see what each race held there was called:

• 1930 Masaryk Circuit
• 1931 Masaryk Circuit
• 1932 Masaryk Circuit
• 1933 Masaryk Circuit
• 1934 Masaryk Circuit
• 1935 Masaryk Grand Prix
• 1937 Masaryk Grand Prix
• 1949 Czechoslovakian Grand Prix

The most recent race was called the Czech GP so I'm not sure what to do about the main race article. The majority of races were held under the 'Masaryk Circuit' title which obviously is not practical to use as the article on the circuit itself is located there. However the 1937 race was definitely the Masaryk GP so I'm going to move the race report. AlexJ 11:26, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Works either way. He was President for many of the races in the period so it's probably a bit of both. And I was being thick... I just made some major changes to Coppa Acerbo myself! Doh. Pyrope 11:46, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the research. I'd say call the main article "Masaryk Grand Prix" with redirects from Czechoslovakian Grand Prix and Masaryk Circuit (except if that's an article for the circuit). Royalbroil 12:05, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

The Masaryk Circuit article really ought to be moved to Brno Circuit. Readro 13:02, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Non Championship Race Table

I'm currently working on the Mercedes-Benz W125 article and wanted feedback on how best to show the non-championship race results.

• Style 1 (as used by many other articles for NC races)

Year	Event	Venue	Driver	Result	Report
1937	Tripoli Grand Prix	Mellaha	Hermann Lang	1st	Report
			Rudolf Caracciola	6th
			Richard Seaman	7th
			Manfred von Brauchitsch	DNF
1937	Avusrennen	AVUS	Richard Seaman	5th	Report
			Rudolf Caracciola	DNF
1937	Eifelrennen	Nürburgring	Rudolf Caracciola	2nd	Report
			Manfred von Brauchitsch	3rd
			Hermann Lang	9th
			Manfred von Brauchitsch	DNF
			Richard Seaman	DNF
1937	Vanderbilt Cup	Roosevelt Field	Richard Seaman	2nd	Report
			Rudolf Caracciola	DNF
1937	Coppa Acerbo	Pescara	Manfred von Brauchitsch	2nd	Report
			Rudolf Caracciola / Richard Seaman	5th
			Richard Seaman	DNS
1937	Masaryk Grand Prix	Brno	Rudolf Caracciola	1st	Report
			Manfred von Brauchitsch	2nd
			Richard Seaman	4th
			Hermann Lang	DNF
1937	Donington Grand Prix	Donington Park	Manfred von Brauchitsch	2nd	Report
			Rudolf Caracciola	3rd
			Richard Seaman	DNF
			Hermann Lang	DNF

• Style 2 (based on the Championship race table)

Year	Team	Engine	Drivers	1	2	3	4	5	6	7
1937	Daimler-Benz AG	Mercedes-Benz M125		Tripoli	Avusrennen	Eifelrennen	Vanderbilt Cup	Coppa Acerbo	Masaryk	Donington
			Hermann Lang	1		9			DNF	DNF
			Rudolf Caracciola	6	DNF	2	DNF	5†	1	3
			Richard Seaman	7	5	DNF	2	DNS/5†	4	DNF
			Manfred von Brauchitsch	DNF		3		2	2	2

†Seaman's car was destroyed in practice and did not start. During the race, Seaman took over Carraciola's car and finished fifth.

I personally feel the second style conveys most of the data in a much smaller space. Your thoughts? AlexJ 13:08, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I saw Seaman's car being exercised by Tony Dron at Donington a couple of weeks back, flippin' amazing thing, makes a noise like no other. I agree that the second table is more succinct, but I think that it would be formatted better with abbreviations, if any can be found that make sense. Pyrope 13:26, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

TRI, AVUS, EIF, VAN, ACE, MAS, DON? AlexJ 14:12, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Works for me. Pyrope 14:25, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Targa Florio

This needs to be referenced to meet WP:V. Any takers with the necessary knowledge and sources? Adrian M. H. 00:53, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Brooklands Poster

Anyone able to put a year to this poster? AlexJ 14:40, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I can't be completely sure but I think I've worked it out. The Road Racing (or Campbell) circuit opened in 1937, and racing stopped for the war, never to resume. The poster indicates that July 10 was a Saturday. Now, of all the years remaining (1937-39), only 1937 had July 10 fall on a Saturday, so the poster must be from 1937. Readro 18:44, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

EDIT - I've been rummaging around and have just found that I have a print of the very same poster! It is described as being from 1937. Readro 18:45, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Nice detective work! I was interested primarily to see if it it's copyright might have expired and we could use a higher resolution version - if the circuit didn't open until 1937 there's no chance it falls into this and will have to remain fair use. AlexJ 20:06, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

My print says it is copyrighted to the Brooklands Museum. Readro 20:45, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

UK copyright for artistic works (such as that poster) is the lifetime of the creator plus 70 years. So assuming that the artist survived racing/WWII then there is a fair chance that the image may well still be in copyright when I am pushing up the daisies. US is different though... Pyrope 08:38, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

That's right, in the USA copyright never expires so long as Disney keeps buying Congressman to change the law to protect the owners, at the expense of the Constitutional objective of promoting the advance of knowledge. Barno (talk) 14:10, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Grand Prix Race Reports

In Grand Prix race reports results tables, how should we be linking the entries in the car column. Currently, where it's "Manufacturer Model", Manufacturer is wikilinked to the manufacturer's article and Model isn't wikilinked. Should both words link to the model article (where one is available) or should the two words link separately to the manufacturer and model articles? AlexJ 20:04, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, in the F1 driver results tables, we link the manufacturer to the manufacturer's article and the model to the model's article, the rationale being that if there is an article for the model, it's linked, but if there isn't, there's a link to the manufacturer, which at least gives the reader some information. And there's always a chance that the presence of the redlink for the model might inspire the reader to write the article. DH85868993 08:44, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Early Vanderbilt Cups

I wanted to post this here to give it the widest audience. I'm starting to work on articles on very early Grand Prix racing, but I came across an interesting conflict. The page for the 1906 Grand Prix season included the Vanderbilt Cup, but the main article on the Vanderbilt Cup says it wasn't a Grand Prix until 1911. Should it be included in season reports or not? The Guinness Book I've used as a reference does not include it as a Grand Prix, and New York times articles seem to indicate that Vanderbilt Cup rules differed after 1907. Does this mean that the 1906 and 1907 events were run under Grand Prix rules? Anyone know of a definitive reference for this information? Paddyslacker 21:05, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Here's an improved list for you. Readro 22:11, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for this Readro. I have been using this source too and it is a reference on the season and race pages that I have been creating. The question I have about this list is that according to its accompanying guidelines page, the races in bold are "major events". Is it the concensus that the major events in this list are all worthy of Grand Prix status? If so, great, I will continue to work on these pages, but it was unclear to me that major event = Grand Prix. I have been using printed references and other online sources to verify these events also, but the Vanderbilt cup seemed to be an anomaly, as it looked like the Vanderbilt Cup cars were built to different specifications during the years 1908-1911, so I wanted to make sure before I added incorrect info. Paddyslacker 22:42, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

It's a list of all Grand Prix races. They are all run to the Grand Prix formula and as such are all Grands Prix. Readro 23:36, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Wiki tables for all Grand Prix races in wiki style tables

I found this wiki like page that has results for all the Grand Prix races before 1950 in tables that are very much the same as we use here (Date/Location/Winner/Team/Report) [1] --Sporti (talk) 12:02, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Good spot that. And as they seem to have liberally lifted material from this site I feel no qualms about returning the favour. For a chronological list of all races pre-1950, Leif Snellman's page is pretty good as well. Pyrope 14:37, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Ha! Just spotted Readro's link above too... beaten to it again! Pyrope 14:39, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

That site is licenced under the GFDL (like Wikipedia is), so when importing stuff you should add the URL of the page in the edit summary. AlexJ (talk) 18:59, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Category questions

1. I've recently discovered Category:Grand Prix before Formula One. I'm wondering whether it should be renamed to [Category:Grands Prix before Formula One] or possibly [Category:Pre-Formula One Grands Prix] (noting that the sister category is named Category:Formula One Grands Prix)

2. Would people support the creation of Category:Grand Prix cars (as a subcategory of Category:Racing cars) to include such articles as Mercedes-Benz W125, Maserati 4CL and 4CLT, etc? (I would propose moving relevant articles out of Category:Racing cars into the subcat).

3. I recently created category Category:1949 Formula One race reports (and parent category Category:1949 in Formula One) as a home for 1949 BRDC International Trophy. But I also note the existence of Category:1949 in Grand Prix racing. I think 1949 BRDC International Trophy should stay in Category:1949 Formula One race reports (since it's a race report for a Formula One race which occurred in 1949). But do we need both Category:1949 in Grand Prix racing and Category:1949 in Formula One? Or (at the risk or reinforcing the common misconception that Formula One started in 1950), is it simpler to just have "19xx in Grand Prix racing" up until 1949 and then "19xx in Formula One" from 1950 onwards?

Thanks. DH85868993 (talk) 02:18, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

It was still regarded as a Grands Prix season, and as there were quite a few Libre races mixed in with the new F1 regulated ones it might be tricky to fillet out just those which ran to the new rules. As for the Masers, technically the 4CL was a voiturette, and the 4CLT an F1 car, so niether was a Grand Prix car in a strict sense. Pyrope 13:53, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Grand Prixes

Hi, can you take a look my suggestions on following talk pages> Talk:Circuit des Nations and Talk:Circuit des Remparts, those needs also some wikifying, thx --— Typ932^{T | C}  10:02, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

By which you mean Grands Prix? En Francais, mon ami. And hey, you are talking about redirecting red links not creating new pages, so be bold and go ahead. Also, by way of a pointer, try using headings for your talk page comments, even when there is no existing topic. Pyrope 13:25, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Both those have had somekind of grand prix races, what you mean headings? all stories on my talk page has headers.--— Typ932^{T | C}  13:43, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I see you meant the circuit pages.. okay--— Typ932^{T | C}  13:57, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Grand Prix driver infobox

Hello all,

I wanted to make an infobox for pre-F1 Grand Prix drivers. I got as far as this. I'd appreciate any opinions and suggestions you might have.

I also realised that a lot of the pre-war drivers already have Le Mans infoboxes, F1 infoboxes etc. Some of the motorsport infoboxes seem to have very different styles. It looks fairly messy having infoboxes stacked up, so would it be worth pushing for a unified motorsport infobox with different sections for different disciplines? Readro (talk) 15:15, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I would oppose creating a generic infobox for drivers because there is a major difference between the various driver infoboxes since what is important for one series isn't important for other series. NASCAR drivers' infobox is WAY different than other series for example. This topic has been discussed at WP:MOTOR on archive 1. Royalbroil 01:04, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

F2 results tables

Working on a key for Formula Two results tables. The one used for F1 kinda works, except possibly for "Green - Points finish" and "Blue - Non-points finish". Graded drivers were not eligible for points, so their 4th,5th & 6th places would be blue which might look a little weird. Any suggestions? AlexJ (talk) 22:56, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it looks fine so I've the F1 template. AlexJ (talk) 18:19, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

The Times (of London) online archive

Just noticed that The Times have opened their archives up for free for a limited period. It contains scans of every edition 1785-1985 and is fully searchable. There may well be useful articles in there on this topic - [2] AlexJ (talk) 21:38, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Changes to the WP:1.0 assessment scheme

As you may have heard, we at the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial Team recently made some changes to the assessment scale, including the addition of a new level. The new description is available at WP:ASSESS.

• The new C-Class represents articles that are beyond the basic Start-Class, but which need additional references or cleanup to meet the standards for B-Class.
• The criteria for B-Class have been tightened up with the addition of a rubric, and are now more in line with the stricter standards already used at some projects.
• A-Class article reviews will now need more than one person, as described here.

Each WikiProject should already have a new C-Class category at Category:C-Class_articles. If your project elects not to use the new level, you can simply delete your WikiProject's C-Class category and clarify any amendments on your project's assessment/discussion pages. The bot is already finding and listing C-Class articles.

Please leave a message with us if you have any queries regarding the introduction of the revised scheme. This scheme should allow the team to start producing offline selections for your project and the wider community within the next year. Thanks for using the Wikipedia 1.0 scheme! For the 1.0 Editorial Team, §hepBot (Disable) 21:06, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Some pictures

My flickr friend uploaded 8 pictures from a vintage racecar event at Pittsburgh, U.S. They are from the 1960s and earlier, and they are licensed Creative Commons. There are Coopers, a Panhards and an Elva. I didn't ask if any more are available. You can find them starting here. Royalbroil 12:35, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia 0.7 articles have been selected for Motorsport history

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We would like to ask you to review the articles selected from this project. These were chosen from the articles with this project's talk page tag, based on the rated importance and quality. If there are any specific articles that should be removed, please let us know at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.7. You can also nominate additional articles for release, following the procedure at Wikipedia:Release Version Nominations.

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Recent finds

Hi HoMers, I recently discovered the following articles languishing in Category:Uncategorized pages:

• 1906 Ardennes Circuit
• 1906 Vanderbilt Cup
• 1906 Vanderbilt Elimination Race
• 1921 Italian Grand Prix
• 1922 French Grand Prix
• 1939 South African Grand Prix

I've added categories and basic lead paragraphs to them all, but they probably all require further attention. DH85868993 (talk) 09:14, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

OK, thanks for the heads up. I'll take a look when I get home. Readro (talk) 09:35, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Here's a few more:

• 1907 Kaiser Preis
• 1939 Finnish Grand Prix
• 1921 French Grand Prix
• 1941 Buenos Aires Grand Prix
• 1946 Roussillon Grand Prix

DH85868993 (talk) 00:18, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Old photos and videos

Does this and/or this fall under pd-old licence? --Sporti (talk) 07:32, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Unless you know when the author died, it's difficult to say. Copyright is the life of the author plus 70 years. We need the author to have died before 1939 to justify a public domain claim. Readro (talk) 10:08, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

There is no policy for when the author is unknown, because that is probably common with very old pictures and videos? --Sporti (talk) 11:00, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

The difficulty with Youtube videos is that the author could be known, but that the uploader has neglected to include the information. Readro (talk) 11:14, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Regardless of the copyright status of the event coverage, it's worth bearing in mind the title screen of that video would have a different (almost certainly much more recent) copyright. 86.16.202.8 (talk) 12:04, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

I uploaded 3 pics from the 1894 Paris-Rouen race to Commons as test. --Sporti (talk) 11:28, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

I noticed you've tagged them as PD-anon. That means that "the work was made available to the public and the author never disclosed his identity." - are you certain that is the case? Or is it just that you don't know who took them. The licence is not suitable for the latter. AlexJ (talk) 15:03, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Well here's another set of pics, but this time the author is known, from 7 races in USA in 1908 and 1910, but says Unidentified Race Event for 2 of them. So all of these are pd-old?

And there are also more pics available from Library of Congress (uploaded some), but dates or drivers and cars are unknown (need to be identified, usually says only between 1910 and 1915): ([3], [4], [5] and more - search for "indianapolis race" here (results are on 2 pages).--Sporti (talk) 12:34, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Voiturette races

Something's been bugging me for a while so I'm asking your advice. Should races run to the Voiturette formula be included in the main 19xx Grand Prix season article or should there be a separate article for the Voiturettes? I guess it's all Grand Prix racing really, but is lumping it all together going to make the article too involved? Readro (talk) 09:59, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

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Rudolf Caracciola

I've been working on expanding Rudolf Caracciola's article for a few weeks now in my sandbox, and transferred the !completed article across to the mainspace today. My aim is to get him on the main page on September 28, the 50th anniversary of his death, and I want to get it to FAC in the next two weeks. I've yet to do a full copyedit on the article, but I'd love it if people can see if there is anything major missing or if I've got anything wrong. The Legacy section needs some fleshing out, and I don't really have the sources for that. Does anyone have a reliable source which makes the comparison with Schumacher? Thanks to anyone for any help they might offer. Apterygial 04:49, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Here's something, after the 1939 Eifelrennen race: "After the race there was trouble in the Mercedes team as the long time relationship between Neubauer and Caracciola, a team manager-driver relationship comparable to Colin Chapman - Jim Clark, broke down completely. On a meeting the following day with Mercedes manager Dr. Kissel and engineer Uhlenhaut, Caracciola accused the team for favouring Lang, for sabotaging the pit stops. for filling the tank with 300 litres instead of just the necessary 100 litres during the stop thus making Caracciola's car heavy, for giving the best engine to Lang, for bad tyres, grid positions and engines during the last seasons and so on."[6] --Sporti (talk) 05:56, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

I tried to avoid websites as much as possible, even those of the undoubted quality of Leif Snellman's, which explains why I didn't use that. One of the books I used, the excellent Hitler's Motor Racing Battles: The Silver Arrows under the Swastika, quotes a letter RC sent to Kissel (the CEO of Daimler-Benz) in which he complains of favouritism towards Lang (a touch rich, considering his history). I'll add a bit on that to the article, as his claim seems to apply to the whole season, not just the Eifelrennen. Thanks. Apterygial 06:22, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Well Snellman also reports that Caracciola was anti-Nazi[7], while motorsportshalloffame, which is already used in the artice as a ref, says: " In 1939, Caracciola again won the German GP but he fled to Switzerland and retired when Hitler tried to "honor" him with a Nazi title." --Sporti (talk) 06:53, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

This comes down to how much you trust your sources. Caracciola certainly said during the war and after that he was anti-Nazi, but like so many he remained silent so long as he could benefit from them. As for the Nazi title, that is the only place I have found that claim, the rest (10 or so reliable sources) indicate that he went to Switzerland because that was where he lived, because of his injury he was unfit to serve, and he retired because there simply was no racing happening. I don't really trust motorsportshalloffame, and only included it as a ref for his induction. Apterygial 09:35, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

OK one more.. you wanted a compare comparison with Schumacher, but it's with Senna. Don't know how much it helps, but it concentrates on the psychology [8]. --Sporti (talk) 12:39, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Skill in the rain too... Can you make a case for research-racing's reliability? I had a look a few months ago and struggled. Apterygial 12:48, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

This article IS eligible for DYK, I ran the official checker that most DYK people use. You would file it under today's day if interested. If you don't want to then I probably will nominate it myself. The article was expanded 5x (5 fold) so it has significant new content. Royalbroil 18:51, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

But it wasn't it stub before... Anyway, you can nominate it if you want, I'd have no idea what to use as a hook. Apterygial 23:28, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

I went ahead and nominated it, here. People should feel free to suggest alternate hooks, he did so much in his life there are bound to be heaps more which are just as interesting. Apterygial 05:53, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

I would break up some of the sections into subheadings, everything's on the same level heading at the moment. ^IIIV_IX (Talk) 08:58, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

I disagree (sorry!). After a quick scan it seems to me that the sub-headings would be pretty artificial. We're only talking 6 paras in one section at most - surely that's not excessive! 4u1e (talk) 11:05, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Well my thought was just to create a "Career" or similar heading and put his history under that, and leave everything else as top level headings. ^IIIV_IX (Talk) 22:10, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Trouble is the sections which deal with his career don't do so exclusively, there is stuff there on his more personal life. I don't think a split is necessary, or even practical. Apterygial 07:25, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Fantastic idea for a project. Here's some niggling stuff from the lead:

• "pre-1939 equivalent". Why not pre-1950 equivalent?
  • Could be either. There wasn't really an equivalent Championship from 1939-1950, but I think 1950 makes more sense, so I changed it. Apterygial 12:26, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
• "twice in sports cars and once in racing cars". I know what you mean, but someone may read it and complain that (modern) sports cars are racing cars. Is there another contemporary term that can be used instead of racing car? I'm looking for the correct contemporary equivalent of the modern 'single seater'.
  • Grand Prix car? Though that may confuse people more... Apterygial 12:26, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
    • I think that would work. Alternatively, "twice in road cars and once in racing cars", which I suppose is what we mean? 4u1e (talk) 06:29, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
      • I'll go with Grand Prix cars. Do you think a piped link to Open wheel car would be appropriate? Apterygial 11:08, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
        • Would a link to Grand Prix motor racing be more appropriate? 4u1e (talk) 07:42, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
          • Probably not, as they weren't racing in Grands Prix. :) Apterygial 09:53, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
• "during their dominating Silver Arrows period" Which one - the 1950s F1 cars, the 1980s/1990s sports cars and the 2000s F1 cars have also been called by this name. Perhaps "during their original dominating Silver Arrows period"?
  • Done. Apterygial 12:26, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
• Perhaps clarify the speed record in the lead a little? It's not quite clear what it was.
  • I'll have a think about how to do this concisely (a more detailed explanation is available down at the 1938 section). Apterygial 12:26, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
• In the third para you probably do need to specify (and link?) Second World War for the historically illiterate.
  • Done. Apterygial 12:26, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Hopefully I'll have time to comment further, but I like what I see so far! 4u1e (talk) 11:05, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

• • Thanks for the comments. If you are planning on commenting further (and I really hope you do) it might be a better idea to do so on the article talk page, for space issues. I was vaguely thinking of working on the article earlier this year, and when I noticed that the anniversary was coming up it seemed like a great opportunity. (Oh no! The 100th anniversary of Rosemeyer's birth is two weeks later. Missed that one...) Apterygial 12:26, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

I've nominated the article at FAC, here. All are free to add comments. Apterygial 00:18, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Scope

I think this taskforce has the potential to be very useful, but the scope issue does need to be sorted out. I was looking over the discussions held two years ago on the subject, and the consensus appears to be at the least that AlexJ's suggestion, that is, articles concerning subjects prior to the organised championships, should be included in the remit of this project. That would be everything relating to the European Championship, Gordon Bennett Cup in auto racing, most Vanderbilt Cups, and other such articles. Whether we want to include anything past that can be covered in another discussion, but my feeling is that they may be better served by their current wikiprojects (e.g., the 1950 F1WC by WP:F1 and so on). Thoughts? Apterygial 00:52, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

These topics all easily fall within the scope of this taskforce in my opinion. We should be broader in scope. I think we should add any article that falls outside the scope of the other motorsport WikiProjects and falls before a certain year. I think that the year should be somewhere around 1960 or 1950. Royalbroil 05:24, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

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1976 Rhodesian Grand Prix

Can you guys help? Following a long conversation about the copyright of an article on the above race, we have digressed onto the issues of consistency and relevance - i.e. how the data should be increased, decreased or altered to fit Wikipedia's standards for race results and whether the results of this particular race are worthy of inclusion. The same question also applies to the 1976 Lady Wigram Trophy but I've been trying to stick to the one race for the purpose of the discussion.

The conversation is actually in the wrong place: it's here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:1976_Lady_Wigram_Trophy

The opinion of specialists such as yourselves would be helpful. The original discussion about copyright is almost unbearable but you may find it's more interesting to start with the words "If I may enter into this discussion". Allen Brown (talk) 14:55, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

1906 French Grand Prix

Hotchkiss driver Elliott Shepard running off the wooden planking outside Saint-Calais on the eighth lap

I've been away from big article writing for about 18 months, but I've returned with an article about the "first" Grand Prix. While the article is by no means near a condition I'm satisfied with (the prose will need some work) I'm interested in any comments people might have about it, anything I might have missed out, etc. Cheers, Apterygial 03:59, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

+ maybe an explanation why it is officialy named IX Grand Prix de l'Automobile Club de France - because they counted the city-to-city races too. Also there are a couple of photos of the race in the Commons and some more available from the same source. --Sporti (talk) 07:50, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

I'll add in those images. As for the official name, I've been thinking of removing it all together. It was added retrospectively by the ACF on absurd logic. Probably better explained on the French Grand Prix page. Apterygial 07:56, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Uploaded some more pics, it's mostly only Szisz thought. BTW there used to be a note that 6A Mercedes' (10th) second driver was Hermann Braun with the racing pseudonym Alexander Burton[9]. --Sporti (talk) 11:12, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Oh there's an explanation on the talk page about Burton. --Sporti (talk) 11:22, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

The article passed FAC today. A video (shown right) that AlexJ uploaded for the article was nominated at Featured picture candidates, but didn't pass. Apterygial 02:49, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Congratulations on another nice article. Cheers. 4u1e (talk) 10:27, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Pre-1906 season article

All races pre-1906 are bundled into one article, which makes sense as yet very little has been written about them to justify separate articles. However, the name of the article is Pre-1906 Grand Prix seasons, which is a bit of a nonsense as the first Grand Prix wasn't held until 1906 and perhaps also to a lesser extent the races were sporadic and didn't really follow a season in the way later races did, with annual runnings etc. Should the article name be changed, and if so, to what? AlexJ (talk) 20:34, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

The article only lists up to 1899 too; no mention of the Gordon Bennett races or the big city-to-city races of the early 1900s (Paris-Berlin, Paris-Vienna, Paris-Madrid). Assuming like most Grand Prix season articles we're primarily taking into account races held in Europe, perhaps something like Pre-1906 European motorsport. Apterygial ^talk 22:47, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

More appropriately: Motorsport in Europe before 1906. Apterygial ^talk 09:53, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

I like Apterygial's 2nd suggestion. This is definitely Euro-centric. Off the top of my head I can name several U.S. races that happened in this time period. I do agree that this is a reasonable topic. Royalbroil 02:30, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

The article is in no-way comprehensive at the moment from even a European point of view, so in theory it's scope could be expanded to include US races. Or we could go with Apterygial's idea, and have a separate article for the American races. AlexJ (talk) 08:57, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

I like have separate articles by continent and linking them together. There is enough content, especially if someone takes the time to flesh out some text. Royalbroil 12:22, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

We certainly could have a big (provided text is added) article covering pre-1906 motorsport, globally. Sounds like a good idea for an FA... Apterygial ^talk 01:24, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

On the other hand, you could have fairly comprehensive articles on individual years (1900 in (European) Motorsport etc.) with quite a lot of work. Actually, nothing stopping us having that at some point in the future, along with a general overview article covering the whole period like you suggest. AlexJ (talk) 15:25, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

With no further comments, I've gone ahead and moved the page to Motorsport in Europe before 1906. AlexJ (talk) 19:00, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

1906 French Grand Prix TFA

1906 French Grand Prix will be on the main page on Friday (see the blurb). Previous experience with motorsport articles on the main page suggests they don't attract much vandalism (especially not one described during the FAC as "covering a niche topic") but it might be worth watchlisting all the same. Apterygial ^talk 12:22, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

A very finely crafted niche, nonetheless. I can't access WP during the day, but will do my best to keep an eye on it. 4u1e (talk) 18:25, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Strike that, fairly heavy vandalism. Apterygial ^talk 12:22, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Bravo on making the main page! Thanks for doing such a good job with keeping up on the vandalism. Royalbroil 14:04, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Seconded. A great achievement! Pyrope 14:07, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Rudolf Caracciola TFA

Another article on the main page, this time Rudolf Caracciola (see blurb), scheduled for Monday. I can't imagine vandalism is going to be too bad (which is what I said last time), although there is a Nazi connection, so who knows. Might be worth watchlisting all the same. Apterygial (talk) 11:41, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Bibliothèque nationale de France

Bibliothèque nationale de France contains a lot of old racing photos from French GP races [10] ("grand prix automobile" search finds ~600 photos), mostly says "[photographie de presse] / [Agence Rol]". These should be PD?--Sporti (talk) 06:14, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

If they are marked "Agence Rol" as the author, then the author is collective, rather than an individual. This means that they are PD in France from 70 years after they were published (rather than 70 years after the death of the author; see here for Wkimedia's official line). For us, that means anything on that site with a collective author which was published before 1941 is PD. If it has an individual author, you either need to prove that they died before 1941, or if it was published before 1923 (regardless of when the author died) it can be uploaded straight to Wikipedia (instead of Commons). Note that for all of this it relies on when the image was published, not from when it was taken. Apterygial (talk) 08:04, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

All of those are from 1936 or older, but 600 is a lot to do by hand, so maybe Commons:Commons:Batch uploading? --Sporti (talk) 08:26, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't know too much about that process, but my feeling is that it is for transferring a lot of images with the same license, or all images from the database. Here, we have several images (but by no means all) from one database, and they might have to be licensed differently. Better to just upload each separately, and then you can crop, label and add them to articles as well. Apterygial (talk) 07:06, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

So for pre-1923 pics licence should be Commons:Template:PD-1923 and for 1924-1941 Commons:Template:PD-EU-no author disclosure (for only collective author given), in addition of Commons:Template:PD-GallicaScan? --Sporti (talk) 07:20, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

For this pic of Chiron (and others) it says: "Copyright : domaine public" in the Detailed information pop-up.--Sporti (talk) 07:39, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

It's a great image of Chiron, but you still need to say why it's PD. For all images published collectively (before 1941), Commons:Template:PD-France (which has been under non-existent discussion for over a year) is the best template to use. Any published before 1923 by a named author will not be PD in France but are in the US, and should be uploaded onto Wikipedia (rather than Commons) using Template:PD-US. Apterygial (talk) 07:51, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

"Copyright : domaine public" in the photo info isn't enough? --Sporti (talk) 07:57, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

As far as I know, no. But it is PD; Commons:Template:PD-France is the appropriate license here. It could be that BNF only holds the images, but do not hold the copyrights. They may have come to the same conclusion on that image that we have here, hence have labelled it PD. Apterygial (talk) 12:07, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Started uploading, going by year - so far did 1933-1936 (it starts at 1936), but couldn't figure out which race these three are from: [11][12][13] (descriptions only say "Grand Prix Automobile"). --Sporti (talk) 13:28, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

The first photo seems to match the grid of the 1933 Tunis Grand Prix - see the bottom of this webpage. DH85868993 (talk) 14:35, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Doing some detective work here - [14] matches the starting grid of the 1933 Tunisian Grand Prix. [15] looks like the same race from the buildings and order of the cars. Readro (talk) 14:44, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Good spot. Yes you can see the same Nestle sign in the first two photos, so it should be the same race (but don't know where did #4 Moll go - bad start?). Probably the 3rd one too, as they apear to be from the same set (also similar wooden fence and clouds as in the 2nd photo). --Sporti (talk) 14:47, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Is this really Hellé Nice? --Sporti (talk) 12:31, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Certainly could be. No makeup, in proper driving clothes, and without the extensive retouching that her more famous 1929 Montlhery magazine photoshoot image benefitted from. Pyrope 13:01, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Found another one. Its from 1929 (first one is from 1930). Car looks exactly the same, but she doesn't...--Sporti (talk) 16:34, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

That is the Montlhery promo shoot I mentioned. Notice how she is wearing makup, is sparkly clean, and her skin has a nice even smoothness. A number of other versions of this photo exist and indeed one of them is currently being used under fair use on her page. Her nose and eyes are the same in the 1930 photo as most other shots of her that I have seen, and that's the key. Besides, it really isn't up to you to question the attribution of BNF. If the French national library says that they have a photo of a French national celebrity then you'd be best advised to accept their identification. Pyrope 13:35, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, uploaded both. Just asked to be sure... --Sporti (talk) 14:11, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

There also seems to be an error with racing numbers in either 1926 San Sebastián Grand Prix article or these photos.--Sporti (talk) 09:26, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Hmm. The numbers in the article match teamdan.com and racing-database.com, but that could be a case of the same incorrect information being duplicated in two places. An alternate (unlikely?) explanation is that the drivers were sitting in each other's cars to pose for the photos. DH85868993 (talk) 00:37, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

André Morel for example is even sitting in a #22 car, which should be a DNA SIMA-Violet. --Sporti (talk) 07:06, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, that's a pretty good indication that either the numbers at teamdan.com and racing-database.com are wrong, or that the photos are not from the 1926 San Sebastián Grand Prix - is there anything in the photos to confirm which race they're from? I also found this photo which the title suggests is Benoist/Senechal at the 1926 European (= San Sebastián) GP, showing number 15, which matches the number at teamdan.com/racing-database.com. But note that the racing number in that photo is a lot closer to the windscreen that in the Commons photos, which suggest to me that it isn't from the same race as the Commons photos. So now I'm just confused. DH85868993 (talk) 08:37, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Found something here at this Henry Segrave photo's description: "Henry Segrave in a Sunbeam, San Sebastian, 1926. Segrave at the wheel of his 4 litre V12 Record Type Sunbeam. San Sebastian was the venue for both the European and Spanish Grands Prix in July 1926. Segrave had won at San Sebastian in 1924, but failed to finish either of the 1926 races." But the numbers don't match the 1926 Spanish Grand Prix either. --Sporti (talk) 09:21, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Hi there intresting photos there, I have been identifying people and cars on those photos (also other old racing pictures), one photo especially would need some more opinions, are these three gentlemans noted right in the picture http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ettore_Bugatti_at_the_1925_French_Grand_Prix.jpg, see also talk page. Would be good also if someone would double check my notes on those other pictures to get all right. I used mostly http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/ to get car data right. -->Typ932 ^T·C 12:33, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

This photo needs also opinions image:Bundesarchiv Bild 102-13501, Berlin, Avus, Hans von Stuck im Mercedes.jpg ,its probably Maserati? but whos the driver? -->Typ932 ^T·C 12:45, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Not certain. You could always ask at the Nostalgia Forum on the AtlasF1 (now autosport.com) forums. If anyone would know, someone on there would. Readro (talk) 13:18, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Pau Grand Prix

Hello everybody,

I worked previously on the "Grand Prix de Pau" French Wikipedia article and I need some help to translate this text from French to English.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Prix_de_Pau

Thanks for Reply  ;-)

--5W (talk) 16:43, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

(from France)

2008 Italian Grand Prix

I don't know if this is the right place to discuss this. In the 2008 Italian GP report it is reported that Toro Rosso's victory is the first for an Italian based team (Ferrari excluded) since 1957 (Maserati). Benetton Formula won the 97 German GP under the Italian flag, so shouldn't they count as well? Sacesss (talk) 20:05, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

I think the key is Italian based - even though Benetton raced under the Italian flag in 1997, their factory (base) was in England. DH85868993 (talk) 22:10, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

Oh thank you, you're probably right Sacesss (talk) 16:52, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Request for information on WP1.0 web tool

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