Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues/Archive 11

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2.HNL/Croatian Second League - Professional or not fully?

I was wondering, since it isn't named in either of the lists here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Football/Fully_professional_leagues Azrail Kabir (talk) 14:22, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

If there's no reliable source to verify it as fully-professional then we won't be able to include it. Giant Snowman 14:51, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

What kind of places should I search through(Football Association homepage maybe or UEFA.com?) and what kind of sources are acceptable for verifying that a league is professional or not? I'm guessing a regular article in a newspaper won't do for this, wouldn't make sense anyways.

Also, I just noticed that the source to why Bosnia's league is not fully professional was a document of the site of the FA of Bosnia talking about the clubs needing to apply for a "licence to run professionally"?

If that is the case, then I think it might change now because as far as I've been informed, all of the clubs in Bosnia's Premier League have recieved a licence to play in the league, however I don't know if that is the same as a "professional licence".

Azrail Kabir (talk) 22:25, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Improved references required

I'm looking at the references currently included and the following are not actually referencing anything other than the leagues main website

Japan – L. League [1] (in Japanese)
South Korea – WK-League [2] (in Korean)

Can anyone find any better references? => Spudgfsh (Text Me!) 18:20, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Italy

Based on this, it looks like at the end of this season Italy will be re-organising their league system, at the expense of professional clubs/leagues. Watch this space. Giant Snowman 14:11, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Korea

The supporting reference for the Korean leagues does not say that the second tier K League Challenge is fully professional. Is there a reference that says that Sangju Sangmu FC and Korean Police FC are now fully pro clubs? Hack (talk) 16:07, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

The feature on the new league structure on the FIFA website says "A record 22 professional clubs are competing on two tiers this year." That's all of them.

This article in the Korea Joongang Daily (in English) says that professional players, including Korea internationals and the 2012 Asian Player of the Year, are doing their compulsory national service as footballers with the military and police teams. Which rather implies that even if the financial structure of those two clubs differs from the others, you can be sure that a) those players aren't living on squaddies' wages; and b) the media coverage of those clubs and their players, which is actually the point of the FPL thing, is going to be no different from that of any of the other clubs. As such, I see no argument against including both divisions in the FPL list. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 09:13, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

So it is now safe to say that the K League Challenge is now indeed, a fully-pro league based on wikipedia standards? --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 18:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

I would say so, based on Struway2's excellent research. Giant Snowman 18:10, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Do the players remain on the books of their original clubs? Hack (talk) 14:42, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Little question

This make me wonder: if a player plays in a "semi-pro" league, but played in Europa League or Champions League, then he could be created or not? Cheers -- MYS 77 ^{talk with me ☺} 15:35, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Past consensus is not. They aren't fully professional competitions. Number 5 7 15:38, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Ok then. Thanks! -- MYS 77 ^{talk with me ☺} 16:14, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Another question: a manager is only considered "fully-pro" when he manages a fully-pro team or he needs to have played in a fully-pro league in the past? Cheers, MYS 77 ^{talk with me ☺} 16:28, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Either. Giant Snowman 16:34, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

So, just to clarify: Natxo González (Deportivo Alavés' manager) is an example. He never played in a fully-pro league as a player, but is managing a club which currently is fully-pro. He can be created? Thanks, MYS 77 ^{talk with me ☺} 16:41, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, certainly. Giant Snowman 16:43, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Hang on a second. Past consensus is that players who played in the qualifying stages of the Europa League or Champions League, but not for a fully pro side, are not notable. However, I'm pretty damn sure that players who participated in the main stages (certainly of the CL) are in fact notable, regardless of FPL stance. It's very rare that a semi-pro side makes it that far though. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 17:19, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

With one exception in five years, the rule at afd has been that playing in the qualifying rounds does not confer notability, playing in any rounds of the competition proper prior to the group stage (currently called the play-off round) confers notability iff both clubs involved in the match in questions play in FPL's domestically, and playing in the group stage or later confers notability regardless of club. Sir Sputnik (talk) 17:55, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Players who just played in the domestic cup

Another question which confused me for a long time: If a player just played in the domestic cup like FA Cup or League Cup, it's notable or non-notable? Could I creat an artical for him? It does not look to fill the notability criteria, but I notice that similar articles like Héctor Bellerín, Thomas Eisfeld, Isaac Hayden and so on had been created. -Alexchen4836 (talk) 02:21, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

The League Cup is usually sufficient for notability; every team in it plays in a WP:FPL. As to the FA Cup, it really depends at what stage they've played at; the fully professional teams start playing from the first round onwards, so if two FPL teams meet, then any player in them is regarded as notable. You're right though, the list needs to include national level cups and continental competitions as well! Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 07:41, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

China

I just knew that China League One and China League Two were not counted as "fully professional league" in the Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues. There were few files in English version of China's second and third tier leagues. But according to Regulations of China League One (The official program of 2013 China League One, Page 8):

- Chapter 1 Section 1: 中国足球协会甲级联赛是由国内职业足球俱乐部参加的除中超联赛外，全国高水平的职业足球联赛……(China League One is the second highest professional football league division (after Chinese Super League) for professional football club in the country…)
- Chapter 1 Section 2: …中国足球协会职业联赛理事会在中国足球协会的领导和授权下管理中甲联赛… (…China League One is administered by Chinese Football Association Professional League Council under the leadership and authority of Chinese Football Association).

And according to China League One official website, "中国足球甲级联赛是由中国足球协会组织的，由国内职业足球俱乐部参加的全国次高水平的足球职业联赛…" (China League One, which organized by Chinese Football Association, is the second highest professional league attended by professional football clubs in the country…) China League One is a football league played by professional football club and administered by professional League Council. All players are fully paid in the China League One.

China League Two is a special league in China. In recent years, there were some arguments in China about the league is professional league or semi-professional league. After 2011, Chinese Football Association announced that not only football clubs, but also football teams under the leadership of local Football Association (which was just appeared in China) could attended in China League Two. Football teams must follow football club's organization and players are fully paid by local public finance expenditure in sports. When these football teams promoted to China League One, they would be reorganized as football clubs. Amateur football teams could not attend in the China League Two unless they reorganized themselves as professional football clubs. Is China League Two counted as "fully pro league"? --Alexchen4836 (talk) 02:16, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

We need reliable sources to verify that information - not original research or your interpretation of a self-published document. Giant Snowman 08:15, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

I had put two reliable sources for China League One. One is from Chinese Football Association's Regulations of China League One, and another is from China League One official website. As for China League Two, this is not my original research, it's the objective fact of China League Two nowadays. I wrote these words is to show that it remained debates. And I wanna whether it accorded with the criteria of "fully professional league". -Alexchen4836 (talk) 09:50, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

No, not self-published sources. Giant Snowman 09:52, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

New info on Scottish second tier

Inspired by User:Daftcelt's Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Scotland Semi-professional Football Team I researched this team's past results. It seems that in the recent past (late 1980s) it comprised Scottish Football League players who were all part-time and playing for second tier teams like Dunfermline, Clyde, Morton and Kilmarnock. This team apparently lapsed in 1987 and was relaunched in 2002 as a non-League selection.

Therefore, I think these players being in the national Semi-Pro XI might militate against their clubs being seen as "fully professional". What do others think? Clavdia chauchat (talk) 16:06, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

If this is the case, then it should be classed as semi-professional during that period. The two caveats I would make are (a) there could have been one or two semi-pro players at a full-time club (much like Dave Rainford) who had not changed status for personal reasons, and more likely (b) if only one or two of the 14 clubs were semi-pro and the rest were fully-pro, then I think it would be a bit over-the-top to consider reclassifying it. It appears that the league's status changes every year based on which clubs are promoted from the division below, which is unsurprising given that it is fed by a largely semi-pro lower division. If a semi-pro team comes up, stays in the division for two seasons, then drops back down again, leaving the division with only fully-pro teams again, I think it would be rather silly to reclassify the league for those two seasons. However, if a more significant proportion were semi-pro, then I think it's reasonable to reconsider it's status. Number 5 7 18:09, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

That year's SFL review has Clydebank of the Premier Division being "proud to be the most successful part time team in the country". They said: "being one of three part time clubs in the 12 Club Premier Division, we set about the task of consolidating our position with enthusiasm and some confidence." So Number 5 7 I think your caveats are valid, but valid for the Premier Division rather than the First! I can't find anything to suggest any of the teams in the second tier were full-time that year. The players in this semi-pro XI were apparently drawn from 9-10 different clubs, not one or two. Clavdia chauchat (talk) 20:05, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

It may well be the case that the second tier was not really fully pro until the SFL was reorganised into four divisions in the early 1990s. Certainly today there are only 20-24 clubs in the country who are capable of professional status (the rule of thumb is an average attendance of over 1,000), so if it was the same back then, then it's unlikely the second tier was fully professional. Number 5 7 20:13, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

I suppose that yes, it may well be the case, but is there any evidence? At all? The situation at the moment, where we have this league on the list backed by sources which don't support its inclusion, is totally unsatisfactory. Not only does it fly in the face of several major wikipedia policies/guidelines, it's also quite a serious academic "crime" - if you like. I mean knowingly and tendentiously introducing false information. Clavdia chauchat (talk) 20:43, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Well, nowadays we can be fairly confident as to clubs' individual status, which means we can say with a reasonable degree of confidence that SFL1 is by and large a fully professional league. The current inclusion of Cowdenbeath, Alloa and Dumbarton (the three obviously semi pro clubs) is rather exceptional and has basically been caused by the demotion of Rangers and the financial implosion of Dunfermline – had those two clubs not dropped into the lower divisions, then we would probably only have one of the three aforementioned semi-pro clubs in SFL1. I don't think this is anything about "false information", but more to do with the unusual couple of seasons we're currently seeing – I'd say it's within the spirit of the rules (much in the same way that players from clubs in fully professional leagues are generally deemed to meet WP:NFOOTY if they play in a cup game between two clubs from such leagues), as it would seem rather churlish to remove it from the status list for the two-season hiatus caused by the Rangers/Dunfermline situation. But as for how we treat the division in the 1980s, I have no idea. Number 5 7 21:15, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Since we seem to be getting into "ifs" and bringing our crystal balls out I think its just as likely that Hearts will have to liquidate and newco into the bottom tier. Kilmarnock are looking dodgy too. The 'Rangers' newco admit they don't have enough money to last the season and, with the best will in the world, are heading for some sort of insolvency event all of their own. All of this probably means the second tier's professional golden age (that never was) ain't coming back! Clavdia chauchat (talk) 21:56, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

If 3 of the 10 teams are not 'fully pro' then that would appear to be a strong reason to remove the league from the list, or at least caveat the period when there is evidence that the league was 'fully pro'. My understanding is that the league has had at least 1 or 2 semi-pro teams for a good few seasons now so we shouldn't be too quick to regard its status as an anomaly this season. Eldumpo (talk) 21:28, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Looking at tables for the past 10 years, I'd say the division was probably entirely fully professional in 2004–05, 2006–07, 2008–09, 2009–10 and 2011–12 and in a further two seasons there was only one semi-pro club (I think Brechin, Stranraer, Stirling are semi-pro clubs in addition to the three mentioned above). Number 5 7 21:49, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

(ec) Per WP:BURDEN this league should not be on the list at all in the continuing absence of at least one satisfactory source. The sources there at the moment actually say the league is not full-time. I'm sorry, but speculative gut feelings from editors is not enough. You need to actually do some research, like I've done above. Find out when it was supposedly composed of 10 or 12 full-time teams and get a source. Good luck. Clavdia chauchat (talk) 21:56, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

N57 - that sounds very sensible, given that is what happens with the Finnish top division. Classed as "fully-pro" even though there are always 1-2 semi-pro teams in it. Giant Snowman 18:32, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Can that argument also apply to the Football Conference national or are there too many semi-pro teams? also when does that argument stop holding? => Spudgfsh (Text Me!) 20:16, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

If someone wanted to make that claim for the Football Conference then I, for one, would certainly be open to listening. Giant Snowman 20:49, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

I'd stake the claim that it may well be the case; however, I haven't done any particular research into this! Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 21:12, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Off the top of my head, the following are semi-pro: Braintree, Salisbury, Nuneaton, Welling, Alfreton, Chester, Tamworth, Southport, Dartford and Woking. Plus possibly Halifax and Hyde. Certainly not close to being fully pro at the moment! Number 5 7 21:28, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Scottish football to be broadcast live in China for first time. Giant Snowman 13:44, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Wonder if they'll be screening Dumbarton – Cowdenbeath? Clavdia chauchat (talk) 16:56, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Tff.1.lig-tff.2.Lig-tff.3Lig

TFF First League, TFF Second League and TFF Third League are fully professional league.

The first and third sources do not actually confirm fully pro status, the second is a Wikipedia page and therefore unreliable. Sir Sputnik (talk) 16:38, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Dominican Republic league notability

How is the Primera División de Republica Dominicana? Is a pro, semi pro or not pro at all? Fifa link. Thanks, Osplace 18:28, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Based on sources and quick research... it is semi-pro at best. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 19:57, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

J. League Division 3

I think a discussion needs to be started now on the J. League Division 3, the new 3rd tier of Japanese football. According to these sources: [4] and [5] the league will feature teams who pass a certain criteria and who are willing to professionalize their clubs. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 11:39, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Willing to become professional is not the same as actually being professional. I'm sure many/all clubs in the Conference National want to be in a fully-professional league, but it's not the case. Giant Snowman 19:37, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

By willing I meant they will. These clubs have to follow the criteria to even get into the league. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 20:42, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Although I suspect the league will indeed be fully professional based on what I have read elsewhere, the source above states that teams must have at least 3 professional players. That's not really fully professional. Number 5 7 21:08, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Ya, that is what would ruin it for me because surely a fully-pro league would consist of teams with more than 3 pros... 11 at least. The league will also contain a U22 team but that should not take away its chances as you have leagues like 3. Liga in Germany and USL Pro in America with reserve teams. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 21:44, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Removal of Football League Two from this list

Per User:Nfitz's suggestion in discussion above, I intend to remove Football League Two from this list. As Nfitz points out, the provided source contradicts the claim that this league is fully professional. Does anyone really believe that a single appearance for Newport County justifies an automatic WP bio? No, of course not. I've looked in these talk page archives and did not find any previous discussion on this topic, so it is fair to assume that its addition here was a bit a sloppiness that, but for Nfitz's watchfulness, might have persisted indefinitely. Am happy to hear arguments and evidence to the contrary--if there are any. --Hobbes Goodyear (talk) 20:56, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

I found this official Football League source, which says under the heading The Football League today "72 clubs – the largest single body of fully professional clubs in world football." [6]. JMHamo (talk) 21:19, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Not a reliable, secondary source. --Hobbes Goodyear (talk) 21:30, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

@Hobbes Goodyear: Here is another source then... "The lowest two tiers of the four-divisional make-up of the English league are known as League one and League two. While being fully professional outfits, many of these teams are of a smaller scale in comparison to the clubs in higher divisions. [7] JMHamo (talk) 21:37, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

The Football League Two is clearly a fully pro league, and what you, Hobbes Goodyear failed to spot was that Nfitz was clearly being sarcastic, as alluded to by "Hang on, while I go prod all the Newport County players." Even on the internet, it should be abundantly obvious that this comment was sarcastic or some other form of humour. If 14 teams in the Conference are fully pro, then League Two is clearly going to be fully pro. [8] - A blog on the Guardian, sure, but again, it shows the league is fully pro (otherwise they wouldn't be talking about any change to part-time). For you to go and remove this from the list would be a very bad idea. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 21:55, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
And in addition to that, there are plenty of non-independent sources being used to verify fully pro status in this list (see Bulgaria for example). Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 21:57, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Facepalm - epic fail. Nfitz (talk) 03:11, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
Facepalm indeed. @Hobbes Goodyear: I think you need to be a bit more careful before being so boldly in future. Giant Snowman 11:17, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Um, "boldly" doing what, exactly? Posting in a talk page? Taking Nfitz at his/her word, instead of assuming that he/she was being facetious and tendentious? And what is the result? We have replaced an undiscussed, uselessly sourced entry with one that has been discussed and has reliable, secondary sourcing. In future, please try to focus your attention on the debate, not the debaters. --Hobbes Goodyear (talk) 18:59, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

I'd assumed that it was a pun on "boldy go where no one has gone before" ... from the same source that "facepalm" is commonly associated with. That it was another obvious joke. Nfitz (talk) 21:23, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Proposal withdrawn. User Lukeno94 has found a blog post from The Guardian that I find persuasive, and I have added it to the project page and, as no other supporters have announced themselves, I have stricken the proposal. --Hobbes Goodyear (talk) 18:59, 23 February 2014 (UTC)