Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues/Archive 15

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Campeonato Gaúcho Série A1

Good afternoon. I want to understand why the Campeonato Gaúcho Série A1 not be considered a fully professional league. Its rules are here. The Campeonato Paulista Série A1 is equal to Gaúcho, and is considered FPL here in Wikipedia. Why? Both are registered in Confederação Brasileira de Futebol as a professional football leagues in Brazil, being the top leagues in their states. Lucas Gaúcho (talk) 15:45, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

It's possible that both competitions are fully-pro, but the Paulista certainly gets more attention worldwide (e.g., the Paulista is even broadcast on US TV). I also found these charts on Globo Esporte which indicate Paulista matches get more media attention than Gaúcho matches: Paulista v Gaúcho. Jogurney (talk) 18:15, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it is true that the Campeonato Paulista has a higher average attendance as it has four teams in Campeonato Brasileiro Série A, while in the Campeonato Gaúcho are two teams. But I believe that more media attention is subjective, and should not be considered as a determining factor for not adding to the list of Fully Professional Leagues. If media attention must be taken into account, with all due respect, the Belaurus second division league also should not be on the list. However, is a fully professional league and is present as well as the Campeonato Gaúcho should too. I believe that all FPL should be included. Lucas Gaúcho (talk) 18:46, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

I agree that there are some leagues in the FPL list which are not covered very well (and are probably not "fully-pro" in that players need other employment to support their families), including the Belarussian second level (it's difficult to find coverage of players in the Belarussian first level!). I don't know enough about coverage of players in the Campeonato Gaúcho (obviously Gre-Nal players will have plenty of coverage) to know if it's easy to write articles that pass the GNG. I did a quick check on Lucas Winck (plays with Passo Fundo) and think an article about him would easily pass the GNG, but his family connections might have a lot to do with that. I'm less convinced that we could write articles about many Lajeadense players and be able to satisfy the GNG. Jogurney (talk) 20:14, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

By the way, I noticed someone proposed the deletion of several articles on Grêmio players you created. I took a quick look at newspapers like Zero Hora and Diário Gaúcho and was able to find coverage of Spessato, so my guess is that all of those articles can be kept if somebody expands them with information from newspaper articles about the players. Jogurney (talk) 20:46, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I spoke to who indicated to exclude articles that told me to be a mere formality because the players have never participated in a Wikipedia FPL league game. So I am making this demand, it can not a championship with almost 100 years of existence, traditional and PROFESSIONAL not be something relevant in the career of a player, at least for Wikipedia. Regarding Lajeadense, a quick search on Google showed me the first page of results the club's official website, with all the details about players, the page in Globoesporte with club news like any other and the profile of the club in O Gol, with profiles of the first team squad. This only on the first page of results without any effort. I would rethink that. Lucas Gaúcho (talk) 16:04, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Resume the discussion after not receiving any further response. I brought here links demonstrating that it is possible to find news/infos on all the clubs of Campeonato Gaúcho, including the regulation of the league, which is very similar to the fully professional league Campeonato Paulista, specifies that even the cost of anti-doping tests and insurance of the fans (page 24). I would like a definitive answer. Thanks. Lucas Gaúcho (talk) 01:19, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Reinforcing my argument: Bring an example of the information of the match between Pelotas and Juventude on 25 January 2014. Can be found at this link the official scoresheet and this link the payments of the game, including energy expenses, payments for referees and all other expenses related to the game. Lucas Gaúcho (talk) 01:32, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Hi Lucas, as the person who prodded a number of these articles based on it not being an FPL, I think there are a couple of points here that should be made clear. You ask how playing in a championship that is contains professional teams, is over one hundred years not be relevant in the career of a player. The answer is that it probably is relevant, the question that is being posed by any prods is whether it is notable. In terms of notability, there are two relevant standards. The first is WP:NFOOTY, which basically requires a player to have played in a fully professional league or senior international football. A player only has to play a minute to qualify and general consensus in deletion discussions is that if a player fulfills this criteria he is considered generally notable. to be honest, I don't see anything in what you have provided above to indicate that the campeonato Gaucho is fully pro (although I am not saying it isn't), so in that sense, I believe the articles I prodded are not notable.

However, the more important notability guideline is WP:GNG. This simply requires there to be significant coverage in reliable sources. this would include in depth interview, or articles of length specifically about the player. This would exclude, transfer speculation, and routine match reports and transfer news. Like I said, this is more important and Jo above certainly seems to have found some articles asserting general notability for some players and I do not contest the de-prodding. To be honest, I would advise you to concentrate on this guideline when creating articles. If you can find substantial reliable coverage on any player that would satisfy GNG, then the level of football they play is irrelevant, they are notable. this will also lead to the creation of more substantial articles as well, which can only improve WP. If you can find such sources for any of the players I prodded, then please add them and remove the prod template, which you are entitled to do. Fenix down (talk) 09:42, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

GIRABOLA

In the page we say :Girabola (planned to be professional for 2013)[1]-[2] But we are in July 2014.

O girabola.com é formado por uma equipa de profissionais em várias áreas de actuação que fazem deste o seu hobby. Temos informáticos, designers, jornalistas e muitos mais a ajudarem diáriamente neste projecto feito de forma gratuita por todos para lhe dar igualmente acesso gratuito a todo o site. A essa base profissional juntam-se adeptos provenientes do maior número de clubes possível, de forma a podermos proporcionar a melhor qualidade de informação. Você também pode juntar-se a nós, basta contactar-nos!

Fully pro, yes or no?--Lglukgl (talk) 00:33, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

This article from May suggests that FAF President Pedro Neto is working to make the league fully-pro, but it doesn't appear that it is yet. Jogurney (talk) 02:31, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Brazilian state competitions

Although we have previously concluded that the top division of the Campeonato Paulista was fully-pro, confusion remains about the fully-pro status of the top divisions (and in some cases second divisions) of other state competitions (see discussion above). I found this discussion of the Brazilian law which requires clubs to share a portion of the broadcasting revenues with their professional footballers, which certainly suggests a level of professionalism in the state competitions since the law passed (the article is specifically focused on the Campeonato Carioca, Campeonato Mineiro and Campeonato Gaúcho but appears to be applicable to any state competition that is professional, mentioning the competitions for Norte, Nordeste, Paraná and Santa Caterina states). It is clear that the Paulista gets the most media attention, but the Carioca, Mineiro and Gaúcho also get good levels of coverage. Does this suggest at least the top divisions for these states are fully-pro? Jogurney (talk) 14:40, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

My opinion has been given here. I agree with the inclusion of state championships in the list. Like to see the opinion of other members. Lucas Gaúcho (talk) 00:05, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Move this discussion here →→https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Football many users will read it--Lglukgl (talk) 00:39, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Firstly, discussions about FPL should take place here. Secondly, I am only seeing indications of a degree of professionalism, not anything indicating a fully professional state. Looking at the competing teams in Paulista compared to Gaucho, there seem to be significantly more teams playing at a higher level nationally than Gaucho for example, so my initial impression is it is unlikely. In fact, there are only two teams in Gaucho who compete in national leagues considered fully pro, and beyond that currently only two Serie C and one Serie D team. Frankly, I find it inconcievable that Gaucho could be a fully professional league as a result given the low level of teams competing. Fenix down (talk) 06:42, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Colombia

I think it's time to restore Categoría Primera A to the list of fully-pro leagues. This article indicates that the league has moved towards an even greater degree of professionalism since 2011, with clubs required to keep liquid capital reserves so they can meet their payroll and tax obligations on a current basis. I understand that the league was fully-pro even in the "El Dorado" era beginning in 1948, but it seems pretty clear that it is now fully-pro. Jogurney (talk) 04:27, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

I would support the inclusion based on that new source. GiantSnowman 11:09, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Agree. There is really no disputing it now. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 12:47, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Me too. Fenix down (talk)

Thanks everyone. I will go ahead and add it to the list. Jogurney (talk) 14:01, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

So does anyone have a list of players who were deleted based on this criteria, who can now be restored? Nfitz (talk) 02:14, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Ukraine

The top 3 levels in Ukraine are currently included based on a Cyrillic-script source which appears to be a list of rules which may not confirm 'full professionalism'. This source indicates some quite low attendances for the 2nd and 3rd levels and therefore I would suggest that in the absence of better/exact sources the 2nd and 3rd levels are removed and a tag added for the first level. Any thoughts? Eldumpo (talk) 06:15, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

The fact that it's written in Ukrainian shouldn't count against it, but it does appear to be a bit vague (it basically seems to say that players either have the status of amateur or professional, and that the latter is defined as someone with a contract with a professional club). Perhaps Boguslavmandzyuk or Ahonc may be able to help? Re the attendances, I would certainly say that the Druha Liha looks like it can't really be professional based on its crowds, but the Persha Liha is a close call - there are a couple that look unsustainable, but one of the ones with a very low attendance is Dynamo Kiev reserves, who are probably funded by the club. Number 57 10:29, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Further to the above I am going to remove Second Lge/Druha and add a comment about the source.

Liga Nacional de Fútbol Profesional de Honduras

Is Liga_Nacional_de_Fútbol_Profesional_de_Honduras fully professional? It is not currently listed as full professional or not. The Spanish Wikipedia article says that it is, but provides no reference. Becky Sayles (talk) 05:34, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

No evidence it is. GiantSnowman 10:55, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Liga Indonesia Premier Division

Hi, so the Liga Indonesia Premier Division is the second tier of the Indonesian football pyramid. Since last year actually it has been considered as professional. Here is one latest article mentioning it as a professional competition. Cheers!! MbahGondrong (talk) 03:27, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Bangladesh

Based on this AfD, there appear to be several reliable sources indicating the fully professional nature of the top league in Bangladesh. Although the phrase "Fully Professional" is not directly used (and really, when is it ever?!?) there is clear indication that salary levels within the league are such that players can reasonably be considered to be fully professional. My view is that there is scope for this league be added to the FPl listing. Comment is welcomed from anyone, but particularly @Sir Sputnik:, @GiantSnowman:, @Wikicology:, @Takeaway:, @Kmzayeem:, @Nfitz:, @Pharaoh of the Wizards:, @NickGibson3900:, @Inter&anthro: and @IJA: who were involved in the AfD. Would be good to get a consensus decision to head off any future issues if more Bangladeshi footballer articles are created. Fenix down (talk) 11:07, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

I wouldn't be opposed to including Bangladesh in the FPL list as long as there is a reference re wages ect. IJA (talk) 11:11, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

I also did a search with the league name including terms such as "semi-pro", "semi-professional", and "amateur", trying to find a sentence somewhere like "...although a semi-pro, the player scored a perfect goal". Nothing of that sort showed up at all. I can only conclude that they must by now be a fully professional league. - Takeaway (talk) 11:22, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

BBC in February 2013 - "Officials say foreigners get as much as $2,000 (£1,320) a month" - no mention of what domestic players get paid, probably significntly lower. Ergo, no evidence the league is fully-professional as required. GiantSnowman 11:37, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

In a country where the per capita income is just $1190 a year (see Economy of Bangladesh), receiving even much less than $2000 a month (lets say around $500 a month) is still way above the average income. - Takeaway (talk) 12:50, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

On the contrary GS, the notion that foreigners get paid lots, locals don't is unsupported by any evidence. The focus of the article was on foreign players, so the quote that "Officials say foreigners get as much as $2,000 (£1,320) a month" is not in any way indicative of a salary level for local players sufficient for them to require no other employment. This article phrases things slightly differently and indicates the $2k / month is the average salary for the league, not for foreign players. fuerther weight to the idea of the league being fully professional can be found here at the BFF, which documents the regulatory requirements for a number of full time staff at the club. It does not mention players, but it seems unlikely that a club would have fully professional admin staff and foreign players but not local players. It's not conclusive, but everything that can be sourced indicates salaries are sufficient for FPL, I can't find a single source discussing any form of significant discrepancy between foreign and domestic player salaries so do not think it logical to assume that means there must be. Fenix down (talk) 12:51, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Just following up on Takeaway's point that the average salary and average cost of living changes from country to country, and therefore so too changes the definition of what constitutes a "Professional" wage from country to country. If the sources are correct and Bangladeshi players are making more than the average wage I cannot see how that is not considered a professional career. On GiantSnowman's argument that foreigners are paid more, I don't think that necessarily makes a League professional or not. According to this source only three of the top ten highest paid players in La Liga were themselves of Spanish nationality. Similarly in the Premier League only 1 out of the 10 highest paid players is English, (reference). Foreigners are usually attracted to play in other countries because of money, so I don't see how that argument makes the League unprofessional or not.Inter&anthro (talk) 18:44, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Let me put it more bluntly then - is there a reliable souce which confirms the league as "fully-professional"? No. At the minute we are relying on what is basically original research and assumptions about wages that is not supported by RS. GiantSnowman 19:05, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

But also we have to accept that not every country will necessarily use the phrase "fully professional" as they will not understand the distinction between that and simply "professional". Demanding a source specifically stating "fully professional" is unrealistic (I believe many of our current sources supporting the status don't necessarily use this phrase, but refer to league requirements for salaries or contracts) and will lead to WP:SYSTEMATICBIAS. In many cases we do have to read between the lines and rely on things like salary levels to deduce whether a league is fully pro, and to simply refuse to accept anything else is not particularly constructive. Number 57 19:43, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Hmmmmm in the BBC News Article which GiantSnowman posted, if you watch the video (UK only sorry), the News Correspondent says at 1:04 "after this league became professional". I'd assume that means Fully Professional not Semi-Professional because what was the league before it became "professional"? A quarter-professional? IJA (talk) 13:12, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Fair points, both @Number 57: and @IJA: - while to be honest I am still not 100% convinced, I think this wording/quality of source is as good as it is probably going to get (for now). As there is clear consensus here to include the league, I will go with the flow. PS there's also this from April 2011 that talks about sponsorship of the league... GiantSnowman 13:54, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

I'll agree that there is no consensus and no clear evidence to be certain that the league is Fully Professional but I feel like that from the evidence I have seen, it would appear that the league probably is fully professional. However I'm not certain about this, I'm just basing this on the evidence I've seen. Perhaps we could get some Bangladeshi users to search for Bengali language sources/ media to give us a better answer? IJA (talk) 14:31, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

My understanding of the term "Fully Professional" is a non-armature athlete who is paid to play their sport and their sport is there full time occupation. IJA (talk) 14:35, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

I found this source In Bengali that actually questions the professionalism of Bangladeshi football. Make of it what you will.Inter&anthro (talk) 15:31, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

My bad with the English translation, there seams to be a problem with copying and pasting the URL in Wikipedia, here is the full URL: (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=bn&u=http://bspn24.com/%25E0%25A6%25AC%25E0%25A6%25BE%25E0%25A6%2582%25E0%25A6%25B2%25E0%25A6%25BE%25E0%25A6%25A6%25E0%25A7%2587%25E0%25A6%25B6%25E0%25A7%2587%25E0%25A6%25B0-%25E0%25A6%25AB%25E0%25A7%2581%25E0%25A6%259F%25E0%25A6%25AC%25E0%25A6%25B2%25E0%25A7%2587-%25E0%25A6%25AF%25E0%25A7%2587%25E0%25A6%25AD%25E0%25A6%25BE%25E0%25A6%25AC%25E0%25A7%2587/&prev=search) sorry about that.Inter&anthro (talk) 15:36, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Cheers for that, but it seems as if the article is questioning the quality and organisation of the league rather than its status as being fully professional/ semi-professional. IJA (talk) 16:28, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Yeah that's was my impression of the article as well. I'm not opposed to the league being professional, just that I am bit skeptical. Sorry about the problem with the URLs.Inter&anthro (talk) 20:00, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

I have found this source which says the league became professional for the first time in 2007. About the salaries of domestic players, recently Mohammedan Sporting Club (Dhaka) signed two local players Jahid Hassan Emily and Zahid Hossain for a salary of ৳3.7 million (about $48,000) each. --Zayeem ^(talk) 02:25, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

So... is there anything to suggest that players in this league could even pass WP:GNG? I thought that was taken into massive consideration before adding any leagues to the list as WP:GNG triumphs over all. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 04:25, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Also, keep in mind guys that the Bangladeshi Premier League were only allowed to have their champions enter the AFC Presidents Cup, a tournament for developmental teams and that they are still considered as part of the "emerging" leagues in Asia. I would say that is a massive point here. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 04:33, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

The AFC President's Cup is no longer running so all those clubs will be playing in the AFC Cup with other leagues that have already been classified as fully-professional so I wouldn't say that because of the fact that these clubs use to play in the President's cup that they are professional or not, although it IS a pretty big point that this league might not be fully professional. On the notability issue association football players meet Wikipedia's notability guidelines if they play in a fully-professional league or have appeared for their national team.Inter&anthro (talk) 20:01, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

And if they also meet WP:GNG. We are light on younger players because we hope that eventually the article will grow but we do not want to have the Bangaldeshi league become "player notable" and then have a bunch of stubs from that 33-year old midfielder who played in the league back in 2011 who is now playing in some local league and will never be heard again other than his small appearances in the BPL. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 20:23, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

That is a valid concern, but it is a risk that has to be taken for every sportsperson in every league. Players such as Demitrius Omphroy and Freddy Adu were tipped to be the next big thing and former is retired and the latter is barely heard of. Even in the I-League and Indian Super League there are many players who probably won't do anything much afterwards. Not that I am disputing your logic but it is a risk that is taken with most leagues.Inter&anthro (talk) 23:06, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Eh, I think that is a bit of a hyperbole. I mean, both those pages are filled to where they pass WP:GNG. What I meant were pages for players who play, say, for the team in the lower half of the table, are probably over 26 now, and only play a season or two in the league and are not internationals. You know how short that article will be and always will be? There is no potential for growth in the article to pass WP:GNG, it will just be infobox and a small one sentence intro. That is what I am saying I worry about... and there will be tons of pages like that in regards to the Bangladesh Premier League. In terms of the I-League and ISL, a few years ago that was true but now the leagues and players are gaining so much attention from the media that WP:GNG is bound to be assured easily... whereas here I just do not see it unless you play internationally. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 07:15, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

ArsenalFan700, I think it's quite harsh to measure the professionalism of the league by judging the notability of each of the players based on WP:GNG. There are many players, belonging to the football leagues considered fully professional in wikipedia, who don't pass WP:GNG or WP:BIO by any means and have very short stubs in wikipedia. For instance, I can list a number of players from I-League who fail WP:GNG and have very short stubs, Rojen Singh, Samir Subash Naik, Wailadmi Passah, Niwan O Gatpoh, Seikhohau Tuboi, Laxmikant Kattimani, there are many more out there. Also, since Bangladesh is a developing country, sources for Bangladeshi players are hard to come by. If you're talking about media attention, I can assure you that football receives the highest attention in Bangladesh in comparison to other South Asian countries. --Zayeem ^(talk) 10:38, 13 December 2014 (UTC)