Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Clinical medicine/Archive 10

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Chronic fatigue syndrome

I've made a little speech on Talk:Chronic fatigue syndrome. To have an NPOV article on this politically sensitive condition would be a triumph for Wikipedia's collaborative editing (perhaps somewhat of a holy grail). Anyone interested in some heavy-duty collaboration? JFW | T@lk 12:07, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Food and Drug Administration Criticism page

There has been a lengthy discussion about the proper fate of material related to criticism of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration. We are trying to reach consensus on the page Criticism of the FDA as to whether this content merits a separate page. All are welcome to join the discussion. Thanks. -Rustavo^{Talk/Contribs} 00:44, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Project member up for RfA

Just to let project members know, MastCell is nominated for adminship (process concludes 00:00 12th May). To participate, go to Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/MastCell. David Ruben ^Talk 16:16, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Userbox

Hello: I created a Userbox for the nephrology project. If there is strong feeling about changing the appearance, we can discuss that on the project talk page. The template is at: Template:User WikiProject Nephrology. To post it on your user page, paste {{User WikiProject Nephrology}} . —Gaff ^ταλκ 23:17, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

This user is a participant in the Nephrology task force

Category:Medicine

We should be more possessive of our own category. Presently, it populated with articles that often have little or no relevance to medicine, or are better categorised in subcategories. I've just spent a good few hours depopulating it. Anyone willing to help? JFW | T@lk 20:40, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

AFD

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Unsolved problems in medicine 2 - please vote JFW | T@lk 22:03, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

FungalGuide links - useful, helpful, or poor external link spam ?

A new user User:Romanbond has added links to several fungal medication articles to http://www.fungalguide.ca - see Contributions/Romanbond. The website has an impressive list of dermatologists on its board, has advertising/promotion editorial policies (stating adhere to international medical journal guidelines), and the pages on use of various agents seem comprehensive. Seeing these links, I had a number of thoughts - what do others think?

• Wikipedia articles should be comprehensive on their own, acting as an indexing to jumping out to external sites is not wikipedia's role (likewise we do not permit external links on each article to Encyclopaedia Brittanica). Are these links appropriate under our WP:External links guidelines ?
• Does the information differ from just product licensing information (for which there are standard parameters in the Drugbox template to link to the FDA's own pages), i.e. is the information any different from the product information on any number of pharmacy websites that generally get removed as being spam ?
• Is it spamming to systematically link multiple anti-fungal articles to this external site ? Would a single link, in say, antifungals be more appropriate ?
• If appropriate links, should at least the formating be a little more formalised under cite web template ? David Ruben ^Talk 22:27, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

---

Hi David, thank for your comment. I’m new to Wikipedia and might have overdone it with placing several links to the same resource. Just wanted to be more specific with my references by linking to a page that deals with the current subject rather than to a website home page. I’ve removed almost all links, but left a few, which, I think, are in compliance with the WP:External links guidelines.

I appreciate your advice.

R.B. 23:35, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

No opinion on the remaining links themselves, just wanted to say, commendable action, removing your own links. Femto 14:19, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeast expression platforms

There was some concern that Yeast expression platforms is biased towards a production approach used by a specific company, which has been fixed somewhat. In any case, an expert review seems in order. Antonrojo 12:44, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Akathisia as cause low compliance for exceptionally toxic neuroleptics

User:Dr CareBear added akathisia as the first mentioned side effect to majority of phenothiazine articles, stating that it is "agonizing", the cause of low compliance of teh drugs, and that these drugs are "exceptionally toxic" - see [Contributions/Dr_CareBear]. I and User:Casliber have reverted these, but details now been restored. As I try to follow 1 Revert Rule, it seems appropriate to ask other editors for their views to help ensure that good faith is maintained by not allowing this to become a personal edit war. David Ruben ^Talk 02:25, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

(Initial issues raised by Dr CareBear and my reply on my talk page User_talk:Davidruben#You_are_Clearly_Attempting_to_Protect_Corporate_Interests) David Ruben ^Talk 02:37, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I've reverted similar edits to fluphenazine and chlorpromazine. My rationale in these summaries. Fvasconcellos (t·c) 03:04, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I've reverted chlorpromazine twice now, though have tried leaving a note in the edit summary. Hopefully User:Dr CareBear will reply here.cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 03:40, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Similar commentary has been added to haloperidol. Furthermore an unusual claim of haloperidol as being potentially excreted as yellow phelgm has also been made in the article [1]. Finally, this user has been creating forks to Haloperidol - Adverse Effects. I'd like to assume good faith, but the content of these edits is quite unusual. Andrew73 14:56, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I'm all for giving him the benefit of the doubt, as he's clearly a genuine newbie, but things are getting a little out of hand. MastCell ^Talk 16:00, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. I've left him a message with regard to referencing and unnecessary addition of POV/editorialization, and recommending that the above article be recreated in userspace. Fvasconcellos (t·c) 16:01, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Things are rapidly degenerating, as DopaminericSystem (talk · contribs) (sic), a fairly obvious sockpuppet, has suddenly appeared to take up the edit-war at akathisia for Dr CareBear. MastCell ^Talk 03:06, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

checkuser time methinks (?)cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 09:40, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I've reported this here - never done this before so keep an eye on things.cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 11:32, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Article such as phenothiazine, flupentixol, and akathisia are worth a closer look. I've been removing some material that seems blog-like or not directly relevant to clinical use. Andrew73 13:34, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I think we're at the point where we could use the intervention of an outside administrator (as Davidruben and I are both involved in the content issue). MastCell ^Talk 17:02, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Checkuser confirmed that those accounts are sockpuppets of Dr CareBear, and I've blocked the sockpuppet accounts. I'm not going to take any action against Dr CareBear, as I'm involved in the editing dispute, but I think at the next sign of disruption we should request an outside admin to look things over via WP:AN/I. MastCell ^Talk 21:13, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Now I think we probably ought to go through and make sure the damage is fixed. MastCell ^Talk 22:46, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

His removal of suspected sockpuppetry note and again of the other warning notices to him is unacceptable. I've added Template:Sockpuppeteerproven to his talk page. The use of sockpuppets to advance a POV that several editors have indicated as breaching wikipedia style or policy was disruptive (WP:3RR is not a licence to revert 3 times and get away with it - even 1 revert can be sufficient disruptive to warrent action). The multiple edits in each case of Haloperidol and Akathisia were such disruptions and I have blocked the user for 24hrs. Having previously held back from further systematically undoing his POV pushing, now having blocked the user it would be inappropriate for me to edit these articles further on these points. Please other wikiproject members, help MastCell with the task of proof-checking the relevant articles. David Ruben ^Talk 23:00, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, he's still at it - see NetCafe (talk · contribs). I haven't acted since I'm directly involved in the editing dispute. MastCell ^Talk 23:56, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Blocked as sockpuppet - same articles, same material and same breaches of WP:AGF in accusing others of vandalism for content dispute. Further disrupton should result in extended block to sockpuppeteer, and might (sadly) require semiprotecting of articles for a while.David Ruben ^Talk 02:25, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Disease mongering

On Talk:Disease mongering I am having a somewhat circular discussion with Scuro (talk · contribs) as to whether we need a page on this topic and which critics should be quoted in which fashion. I am still not entirely sure what is wrong with the present article, but your opinion would be appreciated. JFW | T@lk 01:03, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I dunno about the conflict, but reading the article, I just realized I'm suffering from motivational deficiency disorder! I wish my doctor had diagnosed it sooner. I think it's become pretty refractory. MastCell ^Talk 02:56, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm looking for more legit Wiki content that describes the issue in greater detail. I do not want to see a skeletal article used as springboard for Scientology and antipsychiatry bashing of Psychiatric disorders. A BiP section had to be removed for this exact reason. --scuro 11:12, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

There is ongoing discussion on the talk page. JFW | T@lk 10:45, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Bartonella rochalimae

Cross-posted from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Microbiology.

This has been making minor waves in the popular press, and our recently-created article seems to be in need of serious TLC. Relevant NEJM article if anyone has access. Fvasconcellos (t·c) 16:00, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

OK, apparently it was a copyvio! It has since been recreated and significantly improved by Nishkid64 (talk · contribs), but since it is now featured right on the top of In the News, a few extra pairs of eyes may want to watch it :) Fvasconcellos (t·c) 21:46, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Qumsieh's syndrome

A new article Qumsieh's syndrome self states that "the case study" has yet to be published. This implies (1) there is no WP:RS that one can yet cite and (2) that "the case study" being singular, fails to meet criteria for WP:Notablity. Should this article get deleted? I don't know enough neurology to know if there is more to these conditions and topics, so I invite comment before speedily deleting. David Ruben ^Talk 18:01, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Has not even been accepted for peer review yet? I'd be very wary of having that here. I'm not assuming bad faith on the part of the creator, and it may well become a recognized, notable entity in time. However, as of now... Fvasconcellos (t·c) 18:16, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't see this meeting speedy-deletion criteria - however, it clearly needs to go. This is a topic with 0 hits in PubMed, no reliable evidence that it exists, and a fairly clear self-promotional component. I'd prod it, but it seems clear the author will contest, so when I have a moment I'd be inclined to send it to AfD now. MastCell ^Talk 20:41, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

It's on AFD: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Qumsieh's syndrome JFW | T@lk 22:08, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Referencing expert needed

Corneal ulcer was re-written. Needs help with referencing... Thanks.... EyeMD ^T|C 14:31, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Happy to format references, but not to supply them. They should really be the material used to write the article! Finavon 10:14, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

For formatting of references, this page is your friend. I keep the ones I use most on my user page, so I just have to copy/paste them into the article and adjust accordingly. Ksheka 14:53, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Ringworm and restructure of Clinical Mycology

Current Ringworm article covers clinical mycology in general (mycology culturing and treatment) and covers not just fungal ringworm on the skin (a specific appearance/presentation), but also lists as subtypes being fungal nail infection & athletes foot (neither of which form rings), and Tinea versicolor which has entirely different microorganism (a yeast rather than a fungus) etc. Mycology article covers the general biological topic (rather than as relates to infections and human diseases) and dermophyte whilst covering the parasitic fungal, is about the organisms rather than the clinical diseases or the branch of clinical microbiology.

I propose a reorganisation, with Ringworm being about just the specific skin disorder. Tinea then perhaps should be overall descriptor or disambiguation of the various conditions prefixed with "tinea" rather than redirecting to ringworm. Is this sufficient, or should there be a Clinical mycology article for the overall field (we do after all have Cardiology as a specific field of medicine and then disease articles of Coronary heart disease, Ischaemic heart disease, myocardial infarction etc)

See discussion thread started at Talk:Ringworm#Total rewrite required and restructure of Clinical Mycology, I'm happy to do the edits in the next couple of days, but would appreciate any points or issues being raised for me to bear in mind first (eg is "Clinical mycology" the best of terms etc). David Ruben ^Talk 22:41, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Rather than create a new Clinical mycology article, it may make more sense to expand Mycosis. --Arcadian 08:28, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

PubMed vs. secondary sources

WP:MEDRS seems to be at odds with WP:MEDMOS; MEDMOS encourages the use of PubMed references, MEDRS implicitly discourages them.

WP:MEDRS states:

In general, Wikipedia's medical articles should use published reliable secondary sources whenever possible. Reliable primary sources may be used only with great care, because it's easy to misuse them. For that reason, edits that rely on primary sources should only make descriptive claims that can be checked by anyone without specialist knowledge. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a secondary source.

In my opinion:

• The above (in WP:MEDRS) should be further qualified. Primary sources, IMHO, are accessible to an interested layperson, with the vast amount of credible medical information (e.g. Merck Manual, eMedicine, Medlineplus.org, |Canadian Health Network) out there and the strong base of Wikipedia articles that cover topics in medicine and experimental physiology.
• Primary sources should be the key references-- secondary sources should be considered supplemental. Primary sources should be explained -- like any good secondary source for the lay public.
• Good secondary sources base their info from primary sources. I think Wikipedia has enough people with expertise to deliver nuanced interpretations of primary sources that can compete handily with respected secondary sources.
• Use of secondary sources from PubMed (i.e. review articles) should be encouraged.

I look forward to the discussion. My thoughts on this arose from this discussion-- and are related to changes to the McClintock effect article. Nephron  T|C 06:12, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I wonder whether that's an old policy which is now outdated as the 'pedia continues to grow in depth. I don't worry about it myself and often use primary sources as do many others. Have a look at alot of FA nominees.cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 06:17, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I didn't think scientific journals were necessarily considered primary sources. Mostly, it means that care should be exerted when using recent, sweepingly new results, but I've never seen people objecting to theuse of scientific journals on the base of them being "primary sources." I guess this is because no article can exist that is not based on some amount of existing work. I certainly agree that review articles/material should be encouraged, if only because that material is generally more directly accesible, and can provide of otherwise difficult to locate further material. The couple review sources I used for Verbascum thapsus provided most of the important structure for the article. Circeus 07:18, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

• It seems like a non-sensical sentiment to dismiss pubmed indexed articles as preferred sources. I agree, however, that people who are unfamiliar with some areas will use refs. out of context to prove this or that. The expertise of editors in some of these specialty areas helps to filter the wheat from chafe. Secondary sources like standard medical textbooks, positions of health ministries (eg. FDA, health Canada) etc. can be used to bring contextDroliver 15:37, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

The danger with favoring, or relying on, primary sources is that you're depending on the expertise and insight of the editor to use and interpret them appropriately. For instance, a primary source stating that a compund shrinks human tumors engrafted in NOD/SCID mice may be presented as "XXX is highly effective against many human cancers." (Yes, I have been scarred by the DCA thing). In cases where 1 study has showed an effect, but dozens of others have confirmed that the effect does not exist, selective citation is a danger. I don't think we should deprecate primary sources (since they're so vital to explaining any medical topic), but I do think we should insist on something along the lines of, "The use of primary sources (e.g. journal articles) is encouraged on medical topics, but interpretations of these sources should hew carefully to that presented by the authors or by reliable secondary sources such as review articles and medical textbooks." This might discourage the inevitable idiosyncratic usage of primary sources while still encouraging their general inclusion. Thoughts? MastCell ^Talk 15:54, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

"The us of some types (e.g. scientific journal articles) of primary is encouraged" without reference to scientific topics in particular (why not physics, maths or astronomy??) is a better wording to me. Why don't you bring your suggestion to the talk page? It should be noted that by Wikipedia's own definitions, Medical journals articles are neither "original research" ("unpublished facts, arguments, concepts, statements, or theories" or "any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that appears to advance a position"), nor are they "unreliable" (reliable sources: "credible published materials with a reliable publication process"), so for the most part, these concerns are unfounded. I don't think they fit Wikipedia's definition of Primary sources either, which refers mostly to historical documents. Examples cited are: "archeological artifacts; photographs; newspaper accounts which contain first-hand material, rather than analysis or commentary of other material; historical documents such as diaries, census results, video or transcripts of surveillance, public hearings, trials, or interviews; tabulated results of surveys or questionnaires; written or recorded notes of laboratory and field experiments or observations;". Furthermore, an example of a secondary source is "[a]n historian's interpretation of the decline of the Roman Empire, or analysis of the historical Jesus," which can certainly be a "primary source" journal articles. Further removed sources, because of their accessibility, continue to have advantages, but it is a Good Thing to be able to credit the originators of novel ideas. Circeus 17:53, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

• I'm a bit puzzled by the idea that the comments in MEDRS "implicitly discourage" PubMed references since PubMed isn't mentioned at all. PubMed indexes medical articles, which may be primary or secondary sources. They may be research, letters, biographies, book reviews, case notes, etc, etc. MEDRS is based on RS (a while back) and I believe the views on Primary and Secondary sources apply to medicine just as much as history or science, for example. Perhaps there is a middle ground were we encourage editors to cite primary (often seminal) papers inline but back this up with review articles/textbooks listed as References where they have been used by the editor to confirm his interpretation (if any) of the primary material.

I feel we should also say something to discourage citing a primary source to confirm a fact that the editor only knows through reading a secondary source. The citation may include the primary source but should also say "as cited by ..." to give details of the actual source used by the editor.

If you read MEDRS, you should see it (attempts to) define what are primary/secondary sources wrt medicine. There most certainly are primary sources in medicine.

I'm pleased that MEDRS is starting to be discussed. It is not ready to become a guideline without much further work and discussion from project members. Should this discussion be moved to MEDRS's talk page? Colin°^Talk 18:21, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Good idea... I thought of that after I'd already commented here. I'll move over there. MastCell ^Talk 19:40, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I have been looking at WP:MEDRS, and I would be relieved to have some guidelines such as those that are listed. This would become very relevant to topics in dentistry, such as "new-and-improved" products but especially on fluoride and amalgam. It seems to me that, by far, the most important item in MEDRS is that an article must "present the prevailing medical or scientific consensus." Anything else placed in an article should be labeled as a minority view or one that is not accepted by the established consensus. As long as this principle is followed, then I do not foresee major reliability nor original research problems arising. Secondary sources can be encouraged in the guideline to make certain that medical/scientific consensus is presented, but I think the most important point to emphasize is that (regardless of the source) the content presented in the article, whether held by consensus or a minority viewpoint, must be presented as such. Saying all this, I hope this proposal can eventually be elevated to a guideline with a little work. - Dozenist talk 14:26, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Discussion moved to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine/Reliable sources -- Colin°^Talk 18:07, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Starchild Abraham Cherrix subject of AFD

An AFD is taking place over Starchild Abraham Cherrix here [2]. Given that this individual has featured prominently in the debate about the rights to seek alternative medical treatments, I figure this article is notable enough to keep. Andrew73 17:02, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I commented at the WP:DRV; the issue itself seems notable enough, and it seems the objection is focusing on the person rather than the notable event in which he was involved, per the newish interpretation of WP:BLP. If that's the issue, then I don't think anyone would object to retitling the article and focusing it on the case and its impact on legal and ethical issues. I have to admit, I find the speedy deletion of articles which violate an individual admin's conception of "basic human dignity" to be dangerous ground, but that's an issue for another place. MastCell ^Talk 18:56, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Wrongdiagnosis.com

I was aghast at the yield of an "external link hunt" to the nefarious site Wrongdiagnosis.com. This is a database-driven website that randomly regurgitates lists of symptoms and diagnoses. The algorithm and its methodology are not obvious; the content is certainly not the result of medical knowledge being weighed carefully by an experienced practicioner.

This will get you the search results. Could you all help reducing references to this site by replacing them with bona fide sources? JFW | T@lk 10:44, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I didn't know you could do searches like that...a handy resource. Andrew73 11:55, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm also concerned with the number of ads on their pages. It may be appropriate to delete their links. --Arcadian 13:01, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Support deleting all links from namespaces--Countincr ^{( T@lk )} 13:31, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

The site is nothing but a vehicle for enticements by malpractice attorneys. Nothing here should be linked to it. alteripse 13:04, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I support deleting all the links as well. I also agree with Andrew, that special page showing the external links is very good. Makes for a easy way of removing spam from wiki articles, from known spam sites i would think?petze 13:47, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

The external links tool is very handy, though it's utterly disheartening to realize just how many times mercola.com or reviewingaids.org are linked (the last one has been cut down considerably, at least). If wrongdiagnosis.com is an issue, we could also consider proposing it to be added to the spam blacklist. MastCell ^Talk 01:33, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't think WrongDiagnosis is being spammed. I'm slowly trawling through the search and ticking off article references to WD in favour of academic sources. Mercola has been spammed in the past, and if you think Reviewinaids is being spammed it should definitely go on the blacklist. JFW | T@lk 13:56, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Autism

Autism was a featured article, but was demoted in December 2006. It's been rewritten, largely by Eubulides, and a peer review requested. Your input would be appreciated. Thanks, Colin°^Talk 10:33, 11 July 2007 (UTC) (Just to make it clear: I'm just posting the request here, I wasn't involved in the rewrite. Colin°^Talk 19:31, 11 July 2007 (UTC))

Thank Heaven, the era of Ombudsman is finally over. The new article is absolutely brilliant and I have no major criticisms. It sounds authoritative, is meticulously sourced, and utterly NPOV. JFW | T@lk 19:03, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't know that the era's over quite yet - there's still a huge walled garden of POV forks out there - but getting the parent autism article back into shape is a huge step forward. Strong work and kudos for taking on the topic. I will look at the peer review in the near future. MastCell ^Talk 19:26, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps Eubulides could be prevailed upon to clean up and merge the entire walled garden. MastCell - this has been my assessment of Ombudsman's work since the beginning. You must be aware of the exchanges we had a few months ago. JFW | T@lk 12:53, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Anyone who is willing to cleanse those particular Augean Stables has my admiration. I'm willing to help out - I've hacked away at 2000 Simpsonwood CDC Conference, Mark Geier, and autistic enterocolitis, among others - but it's a big job. The major problem is that the POV is duplicated and forked in so many places. MastCell ^Talk 16:52, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Blood culture

I have now reverted the same spammer on blood culture numerous times. I have {{sprotected}} the article. Does anyone see merit in the link that is being added so persistently and without discussion? JFW | T@lk 12:53, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Link seems inappropriate to me, too - entirely too application-specific for an article on a general topic like blood culture. -- MarcoTolo 16:39, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps if the company/product merited its own article, but on such a broad article, it's entirely inappropriate IMHO. Fvasconcellos (t·c) 16:47, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Why don't you affirm the new jfdwolff motto - all links are guilty until proven innocent - however I appreciate that you have discussed whether this link should appear with others - if the prevailing opinion is that it is inappropriate (and not discussed) than I accept that - convsersely removing links without discussion is not always constructive. Besides anything else I am as entitled to my opinion as you are to yours, however I resent being called a spammer for disagreeing with a single administrator. One more point, blood cultures are inherently application specific. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.31.19.204 (talk)

Agree inappropriate link, as elaborated at Talk:Blood culture. 129.31 signing talk pages is policy as is WP:Assume good faith - it is not some "jfdwolff motto", have a look at WP:Cite, WP:Verify, WP:Reliable sources, WP:Spam, and WP:NOT as well as WP:EL. re "a single administrator", need to be able to discuss and work constructively with any number of editors - now opinions of Jfdwolff and 3 others. David Ruben ^Talk 00:43, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, I agree too, also about the "guilty until proven innocent", ECHR be damned. External links do need to justify their existence; they're generally the least encyclopedic or worthwhile part of an article, yet generate the most heat. On a related note, we should work on improving the blood culture article. I'll start trying to dig up some useful sources. MastCell ^Talk 02:55, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Featured List Candidates

Apparently, few project members have {{MCOTWannounce}} in their watchlists. There are two medicine-related featured list candidates at present:

• Timeline of tuberous sclerosis
• List of polio survivors

The opinion of project members would be most welcome. Cheers, Colin°^Talk 22:44, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Benzodiazepine

Am I the only one who thinks that benzodiazepine is becoming way too "doom & gloom" with regard to a group of drugs most of us prescribe on a daily basis? JFW | T@lk 22:46, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

No, I think you're right (but then, I think that about 99% of the pharmaceutical articles on Wikipedia, and I'm no drug-company defender). The "Abuse" section should be folded into the "Dependence" section, and the "Crime" section is utterly ludicrous. Benzos "have been used by serial killers"?!!?!?!? How notable. Does the article on knife or rope strongly associate them with serial killers? Anyhoo, those are my thoughts. MastCell ^Talk 23:22, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Argh—the state of that article has long bothered me (and I mean long bothered me). I was afraid someone would bring it up eventually... Fvasconcellos (t·c) 01:38, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah it certainly does have a gloomy tone! Andrew73 11:33, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

The use of the drugs bits (indications and perhaps overdose) are swamped in coverage by the cultural/controversy sections. The article is therefore totally unbalanced just on length of sections, let alone tone. However the cultural/controversy sections seem well sourced, albeit too gloomy, but does any source state that another source's "gloom & doom" is wrong - is it possible to cite to regain a NPOV in these sections? Separately should these sections perhaps be pulled out from the clinical/pharmacology sections - ? a subtopic page, eg Cultural and controversy issues of benzodiazepines with Benzodiazepine just being a pharmacology page? Finally should this discussion amongst us clinically-interested editors now be moved over to Talk:Benzodiazepine ? David Ruben ^Talk 13:11, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I propose we move medical test to diagnostic test

I am tired of using the term diagnostic test and finding it a red link because someone wrote medical test. I realize I could make a redirect page but I find the latter term less informative and less precise, and no more useful for the general lay reader. I plan to rename it Diagnostic test and will set up a redirect from Medical test, unless anyone here has a strong and persuasive objection. I got no responses when i posted this on the Talk:Medical test page last week and perhaps no one cares. In North America both terms are used and few people don't recognize "diagnostic test". Is it any different elsewhere in the Anglosphere? alteripse 19:44, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Being in the health profession, I also associate 'diagnostic tests' with medicine. However, I've also heard it used in the context of diagnosing computer problems. Also, what will you do with Category:Medical tests? --Uthbrian (talk) 22:29, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

No doubt you have noticed that the icon used for computer diagnostic tests is typically a stethoscope? I would assume that if someone wants to write about computer diagnostic tests the appropriate title would be "Diagnostic tests (computer)". Anyway, I do not intend to change or mess with categories. Some other people seem to want to reorganize everything every year or so, so I don't waste much time worrying about categorization as long as we have appropriate redirects so people looking for an article can find it. alteripse 05:02, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I did a bit more digging, and it looks like diagnostic program has got my main concern covered. Anyways, after having cleaned out the overpopulated Category:Drugs a number of times, I was concerned that creating the Category:Diagnostic tests would probably result in a mess. So, I have no objections to your proposal. --Uthbrian (talk) 08:08, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Gastroenterology nominated for deletion

WikiProject Gastroenterology has been nominated for deletion because of inactivity. Feel free to comment here. --WS 22:20, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Is Heart shift a legitimate article?

I've never heard this term used before. --Uthbrian (talk) 21:00, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

It occurs in pneumothorax and pleural effusions, but in the present form and on its own this article is meaningless. JFW | T@lk 21:03, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I've speedy-deleted it under CSD A3 (short article that does not provide context). If there's some independent literature on heart shift that could be used to expand the article, we could re-create it, but this is at best a self-explanatory finding that could be described briefly in the bigger articles cited by Jfdwolff. MastCell ^Talk 22:12, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Donor lymphocyte infusion

Shameless plug: I've created a stub on donor lymphocyte infusion and would like to invite anyone interested to help expand it. I've got a ton of references sitting around, but I tend to get sidetracked easily. MastCell ^Talk 22:13, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Autism at FAC

Autism is getting very little feedback at FAC. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:50, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Let's make linking to PubMed easier

As authors get better at linking content back to source articles at PubMed, the underlying wiki markup becomes much more tedious to edit. I think the markup is going to get so unmanageable at to drive away prospective authors. In addition, I am starting to see the problem where one article at PubMed is cited twice from one page, but with a different ref tag so the article shows up twice in the bibliography.

There is not reason linking to PubMed as to be so difficult. Consider if WP has a system that is sort-of a web mashup:

1. WikiPedia has a reference server that maintains a database of citations from PMIDs, ISBNs, LCCs, etc that authors have cited.
2. The author inserts into a Wiki page the wiki markup <ref name="pmid9718051"/> or {{pmid=9718051}}
3. The reference server looks to see if this citation is already in its database, if not, it goes to PubMed's eutilities to retrieve the citation information that will be displayed in teh WP page.
4. The result is a much trimmer markup that is not clutted by citation details. This also reduces duplicate citations.

I think this would be an appropriate project for Wikimedia's participation in Google's Summer of Code.Badgettrg 20:59, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Dave Iberri's tool has made this slightly less tedious, but I still warmly support any move that will make it easier to cite indexed papers. The possibilities, once this is implemented, are endless! JFW | T@lk 21:23, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Can we add a feature that will prevent editors from selectively citing 15-year-old papers from Medical Hypotheses out of context to advance a fringe POV? MastCell ^Talk 05:18, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Already implemented, just set <noquack = yes>.... -- MarcoTolo 01:03, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I use Dave Iberri's tool as well, it makes references much easier. It would be much nicer to create the reference using the PMID, and have the formatting done later. The format could potentially a setting specific to how each user likes to view references.Dlodge 23:14, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Talk:Ataxia

I'm up against some single-purpose accounts who want to keep all ataxia-related content in a single article. I can see the arguments on both sides, but the process could really benefit from some experienced editors offering their feedback. --Arcadian 17:44, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I would also wish for other editors to take part in the discussion at Talk:Ataxia, but please notice - no single-purpose account involved. I requested the consensus debate at Talk:Ataxia, and the IP edits in ataxia-related pages today are mine (I forgot to sign in earlier today, and since I have dynamic IP, a different IP number appears every time I connect. Sorry about that.) --Nehwyn 18:27, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I tried, but haven't gotten straight answers sufficient to sort it out. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:28, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

re a RfA

Heads up re Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Lyrl. Whilst not a signed up participant to this Wikiproject, I'm sure people here will have encountered Lyrl helpful and consistent editing on the controversial medical articles of contraception and abortion. David Ruben ^Talk 19:18, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Propofol infusion syndrome

Are any of our resident WikiDocs familiar with this clinical entity? I'm not, and a fire-and-brimstoneish paragraph was recently added to the propofol article concerning it, describing it as "one of the most feared side effects" and "associated with a high mortality". I found several seemingly reputable articles after a quick PubMed search and chose a comprehensive one (PMID 12904852) to cite, but there is still some rewriting to be done, and I would welcome more competent input on this. I'm probably a bit too jaded and tend to be skeptical of any claims of extraordinarily severe adverse effects when uncited and freshly-added, so please enlighten me as this appears to be that ever so rare legitimate addition :) Thanks, Fvasconcellos (t·c) 15:16, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Should be mentioned, but with the proper amount of weight - there have been ~ 30 case reports, which would make this a fairly rare complication given how widely used propofol is. Nonetheless it would appear to warrant mention. Good find with the source. MastCell ^Talk 18:38, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! Fvasconcellos (t·c) 01:47, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Lung cancer

Lung cancer needs input at peer review. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:45, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Einstein syndrome

What can be done with this? It reads as if it's an actual diagnosis. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:38, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

How about this: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Einstein syndrome? MastCell ^Talk 23:03, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Works for me :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:11, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Postherpetic neuralgia

I've sadly just had to remove most of Postherpetic neuralgia article's pathophysiology and epidemiology material for being a direct copyvio undertaken in 2005 from eMedicine. My neuroanatomy ain't quite good enough to understand the eMedicine's pathophysiolopgy, so can anyone help rephrase/rewrite the relevant sections that I had to cut ? (article's discussion thread on this is Talk:Postherpetic neuralgia#Copyvio from eMedicine)David Ruben ^Talk 23:22, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Honestly, if the eMedicine text is written in a way where even a generalist physician finds it difficult to read, it's probably for the best it's been excised from Wikipedia. "Other patients with PHN may have severe, spontaneous pain without allodynia, possibly secondary to increased spontaneous activity in deafferented central neurons or reorganization of central connections. An imbalance involving loss of large inhibitory fibers and an intact or increased number of small excitatory fibers has been suggested. This input on an abnormal dorsal horn containing deafferented hypersensitive neurons supports the clinical observation that both central and peripheral areas are involved in the production of pain..." Not exactly music for the masses. MastCell ^Talk 03:35, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

proposed Surgeons' bio deletions

I've been trying to do some housecleaning on a number of entries among plastic surgeons (my field) that have been starting to pop up. There are a handful of "bios" of people not particularly notable in a historic sense creeping into wikipedia. The "quality" of some of these physicians' CV varies, but I don't want this to really grow like weeds. I tagged a few for propsed deletions if anyone wants to look

George Bitar, Jon Perlman, Douglas Ousterhout, Wallace Chang, Randal Haworth, & Ziya Saylan

Let me know if I'm being too "elitist", I just don't want to dilute inclusion criteria too much. I've tried twice to get (not particularly notable) transgender surgeon toby meltzer bounced, but there's a pretty militant trannie fan club. Droliver 03:16, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Eh. Nearly all of those articles are resumes, without reliable secondary sources to establish notability, so I'd be fine if they all went away. But that's just me. MastCell ^Talk 03:23, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Heart disease on AID

The current Article Collaboration and Improvement Drive article is Ioannis Protos (random unreferenced BLP of the day for 10 Nov 2024 - provided by User:AnomieBOT/RandomPage via WP:RANDUNREF).
Last week's collaboration was: World War I.
CAST YOUR VOTE for next week's article

Is it appropriate for for an MD's private practice websites to be linked to?

I'm interested in some feedback from peers. On biography pages, is it appropriate to contain links to a doctor's personal webpage? In particular, with fee for service areas of medicine like Plastic Surgery, a practice website is mostly an advertising vehicle. In the guideline for external links WP:EL, commercial portals are discouraged. I think it's reasonable to equate such a link to a commercial enterprise, and I've seen it treated as such on other MD's bios on wikipedia.

I've deleted the practice website of plastic surgeon, Toby Meltzer, [3] only to run into resistance from some of the transgender folks who are very protective (like most of us) of any articles on doctors related to their pet issues. Dr. Meltzer is kind of a super-teriary specialist in trans-gender operations from patients who travel to him in Arizona. This practice website is how a number of patients are directed to him presumably for his practice.

If anyone has strong feelings on this, please share and chime in that discussion. Rob Droliver 14:34, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Generally, links to a physician's private practice would seem to violate WP:EL by being commercial, adding little of encyclopedic value, etc. However, on a biography page, links to websites maintained by the subject of the article are generally accepted, even though they often have a commerical bent to them (again, per WP:EL). So long as Toby Meltzer is notable enough for an article, it's probably OK (IMHO) for that article to link to his practice website. However, the link shouldn't appear on other pages, such as gender reassignment surgery or plastic surgery. MastCell ^Talk 16:23, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Emedtv, a tertiary source

A small group of editors has simultaneously started adding content with the use of EMedTV.com as a reference. Reviewing the website I am immediately struck by the familiar waffle of ad-supported health sites - no references, no name of the author let alone his/her qualifications, and no indication that it is supported by professional organisations.

Articles in question are arthritis, hypertension, atorvastatin. No doubt other articles are also being targeted. Please keep an eye out; I'm discussing one edit on Talk:Arthritis. JFW | T@lk 16:51, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Here's a list of articles from which emedtv.com is linked: [4]. MastCell ^Talk 17:09, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Indeed uncredited by author, without references and just a tertiary source that fails to add to wikipedia's generally better (better written, better referenced and cross-linked to other articles) articles. These links need to be taken down. David Ruben ^Talk 18:46, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I have been the one that has been using eMedTV as a reference. Why, because as a practicing physician, I have always found their information to be accurate, up to date and transparent when it comes to their editorial process, including the healthcare providers that oversee their content and their editoral process.

But I would like to respond to some of the comments make in the posts above. First of all, come down a little off the better written, etc. I decided to start interacting with Wikipedia after I read in the Hypertension article that pregnancy in males is a complication of HTN. I don't remember this in medical school but maybe I am wrong. I then read the article about arthritis which had no references. I then read an article about ibuprofen which says that priapism is a common side effect (which it is not). Furthermore, the article did not include one of the most common side effects, which is an unexplained rash. So I decided to not only make the information more accurate but added references to support my changes.

And regarding the quote from above "I am immediately struck by the familiar waffle of ad-supported health sites - no references, no name of the author let alone his/her qualifications, and no indication that it is supported by professional organisations," -- Mayo Clinic's website has ads. Does this make it a less credible site? I would recommend before making a judgment, read their about page to see how they create content. Before using them as a reference, I did and have recommended them to a number of my patients because their information is well written and accurate. What I gather is that this is an organization that has health care providers overseeing the quality and accuracy of their content and have an editorial process in place.

So this then bodes the question about the definition that Wikipedia uses for credible sources and it is as follows: "Reliable sources are authors or publications regarded as trustworthy or authoritative in relation to the subject at hand. Reliable publications are those with an established structure for fact-checking and editorial oversight." So when I made the updates, I took this information from eMedTV and felt that I should reference where I got it from.

I would welcome your thoughts because this is not just about my choice of reference locations, it is about using Mayo Clinic and a number of other sites that are credible sources of information. Furthermore, what I found interesting with your edits is that you did not take down the information that I added. Why? If my sources are inaccurate, then doesn't this make the information I added inaccurate. If so, I will be more than happy to return the information back to the way it was before I caused all this controversy.Sailormd 22:02, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I do not dispute the information on eMedTV. Most of it is probably accurate, much like Wikipedia. But there is no way of knowing when nobody puts his name to it. Given that the content is based on other sources, why can't we preferentially cite those sources and appear slightly more credible? See WP:MEDRS for some background. I doubt the Mayo Clinic is much better.

What is a physician doing using a website as a reference? JFW | T@lk 22:18, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

No. Emedtv doesn't give any indication of authorship, fact checking or peer review: not a reliable source. (Why are the links still in those articles?) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:34, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

re Why still... not any more. David Ruben ^Talk 23:56, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Good. Next, Mayo clinic. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:12, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I have explained my rationale and although not answered what it appears like to me is that this group would rather no source than a secondary source.

To make your life easier, I have also provided the links for all those that have WebMD, Mayo Clinic, RevolutionHealth as a reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Linksearch&limit=500&offset=0&target=%2A.webmd.com&namespace=

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALinksearch&target=*.mayoclinic.com

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALinksearch&target=*.revolutionhealth.com

I am sure that there are other sites that have infiltrated Wikipedia. These are just the ones that came to the top of my head.

I have also reverted the articles back to the state they were before I edited them. This is about being transparent. If my sources are unreliable, then the information should be removed. Sailormd 03:56, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

That's an encouraging link list; I found only one instance of a featured article being invaded by any of these links, and it was recent. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:21, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Maybe I am missing something here but I see over 500 links to WebMD and 351 for MayoClinic. A number of these I briefly scanned seem to fall into the tertiary source area. I also did a quick search for wrongdiagnosis.com. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=*wrongdiagnosis.com&go=Go Occasionally, my patients have brought in info from them and it is most often inaccurate.

Maybe going forward I will spend some time cleaning up the use of tertiary sources and external links. Any assistance from other medical professionals would be appreciated.

A lot of them aren't article links; I prioritized FAs, and will eventually work on the GA list. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:53, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I must urge all contributors not to delete the referenced content unless it sounds blatantly wrong. Chances are that these resources, while poor from the perspective of WP:MEDRS, have got it right in most regards. Hey, why not dive into PubMed and see if you can find a suitable academic source instead?! JFW | T@lk 12:57, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

In the case of Tuberculosis, since it was recently rewritten at WP:FAR with help from Tim Vickers, I decided any text added recently and sourced to Mayo probably wasn't worth having; since I'm not a physician, maybe one of you can have a look at the Mayo content I removed? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:31, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Didn't we just spend a day discussing the appropriateness of tertiary sources on Wikipedia? This issue was never whether the information was right or wrong; just the use of citations. And your position was that if poor from the perspective of WP:MEDRS, then the reference should be removed. I agree with Sandy. If we are going to be consistent, we should evaluate all references and remove as appropriate based on WP:MEDRS The position is that they have no place here.Sailormd 13:40, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

No, that's not the position. My position on Tuberculosis was different because it was just reviewed and rewritten. In general, please review WP:ATT. Information that can be sourced, even though it's not, need not be deleted unless you believe it's inaccurate. If it's likely accurate, you leave the text and find a new source. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:51, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

SandyGeorgia, do you have diffs for the edits to the TB article where you refactored Mayo Clinic? I'll quite happily have a look at it. JFW | T@lk 13:56, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, JFW: here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:04, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I came here because I saw the deletion of sourced by Sailormd. If you are going to remove sources as problematic, it would be best if you replaced them with a reliable source, while it is more work, it clearly improves the encyclopedia. If you cannot add a source to replace the source you are removing, AT THE VERY LEAST, please add a citation needed tag. Look at this diff. In this case, and many others, I believe having the WebMD link is at least better than having nothing, which is now the case. -Andrew c ^[talk] 15:33, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Re. the benazepril edit: That WebMD link is a lay reader-friendly news report on the study findings. The original, arguably more reliable source (i.e. the study itself) is also cited in the article; why remove the WebMD ref? (Which, by the way, is a secondary source) Fvasconcellos (t·c) 15:44, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, WebMD articles are attributed to an author (see very bottom where often states which group of doctors reviewed article and who is last reviewer) and therefore seem more like a secondary source (which is acceptable), very much like eMedicine, although written for a different target audience (and WedMD of course now owns eMedicine) David Ruben ^Talk 17:32, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Andrew C, there is consensus here that we should work on better sources for facts presently referenced to sites like WebMD, Wrongdiagnosis etc etc. Whether these are secondary or tertiary doesn't bother me. The fact is that Wikipedia is mature enough not to let itself be guided by the whims of those sites' content purchasers. We have enough manpower and brainpower to get the content directly from that elusive thing called the "medical literature".

If there is one thing this WikiProject should strive for, it is demonstrating in an encyclopedic fashion how medicine is practiced. Good doctors base their practice on evidence-based publications, not on hearsay or outdated factoids once crammed in medical school. Good CME is literature-based rather than expert-based. We should aim to follow these trends. One of the ills of modern medicine is the fact that people follow diagnostic and therapeutic protocols without having appraised the evidence base behind them. Again, citing directly from the literature will shorten the distance between encyclopedia content and the aggregated body of medical knowledge.

I applaud SailorMD for rigorously applying these principles. I would again like to stress that often, a little bit of PubMed sleuthing will provide a dedicated contributor with the right reference in the literature where facts were previously referenced to some website. JFW | T@lk 18:59, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I understand what you are saying, and I agree with most of it. However, I do not applaud some of Sailormd's edits. Take for example this edit. A list of symptoms was referenced with a WebMD article. However, the reference was removed, leaving the article with an unsourced list of symptoms that came from WebMD. If the content wasn't accurate, then the whole symptoms list should have been removed along with the reference. If the content was good, the best thing to do would have been to replace the reference to a more reliable source. It is unacceptable to orphan content from their sources. At the very least, if you are going to remove WebMD references, replace them with citation needed tags (or, if the content is disputed, better yet remove the inaccurate content and the poor source).-Andrew c ^[talk] 20:22, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

The fact that content is loosely cited from WebMD does not invalidate the content. On the contrary, the content is likely to be correct. I urge you to adhere to the consensus formed on this page and not pursue your own agenda as you have done on heart failure. JFW | T@lk 00:38, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Well if nothing else I think this has been a productive discussion. JFW you bring up some great points. I absolutely agree that evidenced-based medicine is the only way to go and that these principals will lead to higher quality information. And as always I will be transparent with why I do things. Yes I did remove several references from WebMD. The reason -- WebMD uses licensed material created by Healthwise, a company that licenses content to several hundred other web sites. In other words, it is syndicated content similar to AP or Reuters. In these cases, we could just as easily use one of the university sites that also use Healthwise as a reference (I am not advocating that). What I am advocating is that we limit the use of licensed or syndicated content as references.

Despite me bringing up Mayo Clinic (it was to illustrate a point about advertising), I do not think that their site warrants removing their references. This is because I would argue that it would be more appropriate to use a nonsyndicated site reference, such as a Mayo Clinic, if one is needed (assuming a better medical reference is not available). My rationale is that they write their own content, it is written by medical professionals, their provide references, and based on my experience it is generally accurate. I believe that sites that license their content, such as a WebMD, Wrong Diagnosis, or a host of others do not have a place here.

Now in order of priority, citing the literature is always going to be the first choice. However, I would not go to the literature (in most cases) if I were looking up things like symptoms, causes, or diagnosis. As you know, we would go to Harrison's or one of the many other reference books that we have available to us. And if we were publishing a paper we would reference this source. Pretty simple. But, Wikipedia is different, partly because of the various audiences but also because of the need for transparency (to maintain quality). Seeing the sources allows us to check for accuracy based on the resources we have available to us and our clinical knowledge. Without a citation, we have no way of verifying accuracy. This is why I would prefer sources to be cited as long as they meet the other criteria (they write their own content, it is written by medical professionals, and their reference their sources). Do you agree with my rationale because it seems like a pretty simple criteria to measure the quality of a secondary (or tertiary) source?Sailormd 04:34, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Mayo Clinic has gotten dramatically better recently, but they still have a bit of subtly incorrect info about Tourette syndrome. I wouldn't use them. At least they're better than the Merck Manual. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:22, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Point taken. The first criteria of course it that the information cited is accurate.Sailormd 13:40, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I fail to see why "WebMD uses licensed material created by Healthwise" is a valid reason for removing references. What has the licensing or syndication of content got to do with whether it is a reliable source or not? By the standards of WP, WebMD is a reliable source. Look at this article on the ketogenic diet: it has an named author, an editor, reviewers, a date and cites its source. That's better than many WP references (compare with the emedtv version). Just to be clear: I'm not encouraging the use of WebMD, just saying it is not an unreliable source.

Can I just clarify that I've understood JFW, Fvasconcellos and David Ruben's comments correctly: WebMD is an adequately reliable source for WP articles (whereas eMedTV isnt). It is a whole lot better than a newspaper, for example. By "adequate" I mean that it meets WP's threshold, but isn't ideal. This project strongly encourages editors to find and use better sources. We would certainly expect our best (featured) articles to be based on stronger material. I hope WP:MEDRS indicates that there is a spectrum of quality, not a black-and-white rule. Simply removing adequately sourced text or removing the adequate references from text should be discouraged. Colin°^Talk 16:49, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

No, WebMD is not suitable as a reference. It is reasonably referenced and probably reliable for a layperson, but why not go for the gold and sidestep this "content for sale" stuff. Also, just look at the "shingles" article[5] - you can see the URL is a fine example of SEO.

I remain convinced that the only way of finding better references is by removing the dodgy ones. I would hope SailorMD could be so kind as to replace his removed references with better ones. JFW | T@lk 19:10, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I think this "content for sale" and SEO stuff is a distraction. As one of the authors of WP:MEDRS, I know WebMD isn't a good source, and wouldn't choose to use it myself nor recommend it. However, it doesn't fail WP's policy or guideline as as source. Removing material or sources that meet WP policy and guidlines could be considered vandalism. Editors should be careful to improve an article, not just delete the bits that aren't up to their personal standards. WP:MEDRS is neither an official guideline nor policy. Colin°^Talk 20:20, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but I'm with Colin on this one. Sure we should go for the gold, but I'd rather have... I don't know, "bronze" in an article than "lead". Wholesale removal or sources which fail neither policy nor guideline, while higher-quality sources are still unavailable (i.e. haven't been searched for, let alone added to the article), is borderline WP:POINTy in my book. Fvasconcellos (t·c) 20:33, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Just to put the record straight, I agree that the wholesale removal of references is not right so I think we are all in agreement with this. This weekend, I will be updating the references for the ones that I recently removed. I do however believe that in some cases references are absolutely unnecessary. For example, look at bunions, which had previously referenced the definition of a bunion. Why does this require a citation?

The second discussion is what is an appropriate source for medical information on WP. Source text by definition is original text. It is not text housed on another site for which a fee is paid. Therefore, I cannot see how it is ever appropriate to cite a Website for which content is not their own original work. If WebMD or a host of other sites did not write the information, they are not a source, regardless of whether the information is considered reliable.

Then it comes down to what is an acceptable source. Several people have said this to be this minimum standard should be a reliable source. As you all know, I used eMedTV as a reference because I viewed them as a reliable source per the WP definition (health care providers overseeing the content creation, an editorial process in place, and accurate information for the sources I used based on my clinical judgment) - see [6].

But, with that being said, in the future I would not use this source because this site does not meet the minimum criteria I mentioned last night for online sources. This criteria includes the article being the original work of the website referenced (not licensed or repurposed content), it is written and/or reviewed by medical professionals (who are named), they reference their sources, and of course the information is accurate. What I find when I read the WP:MEDRS is that it does an excellent job outlining quality sources, except for online sources where it just names a couple of acceptable sources. I am looking to promote discussion to see if we might be able to provide more clarity for online sources, eliminate some of the subjectiveness, and ultimately improve the quality of the WP product. Does this criteria seem reasonable?Sailormd 04:57, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Good summary. Just to clarify, it was not in itself that EmedTV data might be inaccurate, just whether it was an appropriate source (vs say an attributable text book or other website). WP:MEDRS had quite a long and difficult time being formulated at all (in particular whether if 2 equally good sources, should an online one take precidence over a hard-copy-via-library one). So it was left somewhat imprecise whilst it "bedded-down" and people might see how it would help or hinder finding appropriate sources in a given situation (eg of course a newspaper article would be valid if making a point about public awareness or attitude to an item). So I think the above discussion should form a useful introduction to relooking at how firmly WP:MEDRS might be tightened-up or rephrased :-) David Ruben ^Talk 12:24, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Mother of all eyesores

To speak with Saddam Hussein, I have come to regard allergy as the mother of all eyesores. It is presently a hodgepodge of unreferenced POV, bits of random knowledge and some valid points too. I nominated this for MCOTW a while ago, but I suspect not many are looking at that page very often. I would appreciate everyone's votes, and perhaps we can tackle that article in the near future. Hmmm, eyesore, isn't that allergic conjunctivitis?

I'm planning some work on pancreatic cancer with the help of an extremely detailed review from Gut last month.

We have a very positive note on the coeliac disease article in a Gut book review, by the way. See Talk:Coeliac disease for details. JFW | T@lk 12:52, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Excellent. By the way, drop me a note when you're going to start on the pancreatic cancer article. I've been a little swamped in real life, but would like to work on it, and it's always easier if others are on board at the same time so we can bounce ideas and sources around. Allergy is giving me a headache so I'm not sure how much time I'll spend there. Actually, now that I look again, the layout is not half bad. It just needs a lot of cleanup. MastCell ^Talk 17:06, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Journal copyright question

Can anyone who has access look at the journal study cited in the Table I built in my sandbox, and tell me if I altered it enough/left out enough to get away without this being a copyright issue? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:39, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Copyright-wise, I see no difficulties - your table is simply a summary of the Mattila et al version. One question (and pardon my ignorance on the classification of ASDs): the final line of your table is "Exclusion of other disorder", while the Mattila table is "Exclusion of autistic disorder" - would it be more correct to say "Exclusion of other autistic disorders" here? -- MarcoTolo 17:29, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the help! Not sure; if you look at the list of exclusions in the footnotes of the table, they aren't all autistic disorders, so in the interest of not completely duplicating their text and violating copyright, I dropped that word. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:10, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

• Looks good to meDroliver 13:43, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Asperger syndrome has now been (rightfully) submitted to WP:FAR; a massive rewrite is underway (but the end of summer timing stinks). We haven't yet touched the top of the article (working from the bottom up), so cover your eyes there. Can others please look at the massive list of differentials I've added to Asperger_syndrome#Diagnosis and attempt to resolve the red links, consolidate them into some semblance of categories (I drew the lists from two different sources), and eliminate conditions that aren't worthy of mention? I'm not a physician or a medical professional, so some of them are Greek to me. Thanks, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:37, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Asperger syndrome has now been fully rewritten, top to bottom, to reflect reliable sources. Review and feedback on the current status at Talk:Asperger syndrome#SG multiple responses would be welcomed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:36, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

MCOTW - resuscitating an old friend

A few months ago, WP:MCOTW (Medical Collaboration of the Week) was a force to be reckoned with. With breakneck speed and phenomenal collaboration, some high-profile articles like asthma, multiple sclerosis and prostate cancer were improved to featured level.

Sadly, Knowledge Seeker (talk · contribs) (Mr MCOTW par excellence) is too busy in meatspace, and several other high-powered contributors have had to spread themselves a bit thinner. This is a reality on Wikipedia. However, over the last few months the MCOTW has fizzled out a bit. Fewer articles are nominated, there are fewer votes, the articles turn around less frequently, receive fewer edits, and rarely make FA.

I propose the following:

• MCOTW now turns around twice a month: on the 1st and the 15th.
• GA status rather than FA should be the primary objective (we cannot aspire to producing an FA every 2 weeks)
• If insufficient votes are cast, NCurse (talk · contribs) and myself will find important articles that need improving

Before embarking on this journey, I'd like to get some soundings from this WikiProject. Are the above proposals realistic? Are there any people who presently encounter barriers in contributing? Do we need to start a journal service (contributors with digital journal access locating source material on behalf of others)? All comments very much welcome! JFW | T@lk 19:42, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd be interested in being more active if we can revive it. The only barrier I have to contributing is that I keep getting sidetracked (well, that and grant deadlines are approaching). It would be good to sound out how many people are active enough to participate. I would actually look forward to doing some non-controversial editing at this point. I have online access to most reasonably high-impact journals, and can help provide text to those who lack such access, within the bounds of copyright issues. MastCell ^Talk 22:07, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Sounds great. So tomorrow we will start on meningitis? Some suggestions:

• Stick to "pure" medical topics, e.g. the current collaboration transcription factor is not an article that I expect to be improved a lot by doctors or med students.
• Announce the new collaboration on talk pages such as those from the users that voted, active contributors on previous articles, here, and on related wikiprojects.

--WS 17:49, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

"Journal service" is a good idea. We should have a separate page where editors with access can enlist their names and others can post requests.--Countincr ^{( t@lk )} 18:56, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

So a little summary:

• Medicine collaboration of the fortnight (1st and 15th of each month)
• focusing on medical articles (we should forget about molecular biology, etc.)
• making a lot of noise on talk pages of users, projects and portals. We should promote this improved MCOTW on the Community Portal.
• we should also create an up-to-date list of the really active contributors
• Journal Service (fantastic idea!)

My questions/suggestions:

• Should we rename the MCOTW to MCOTF?
• We should make it much easier to nominate an article. The "needs 2 votes to remain in consideration" parameter is totally unneccessary as we get just a few nominations. In a lot of cases, I had to find a new collaboration myself. Just an aticle name + a date + the nominator's name, that's all we need.

What do you think? NCurse _work 07:12, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I think MCOTF is now a better descriptor of that page. "Needs 2 votes" is unnecessary and disrupts the cycle.

Meningitis time! JFW | T@lk 10:47, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok! What I've done:

• Meningitis is the new collab.
• I removed the "needs X votes to remain in consideration" line from the template and the past nominations.

The only thing left is the new name. Should I rename all of the related pages/templates to fortnight?

Please help making some noise about the improvements. NCurse _work 15:28, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Short bowel syndrome

On Talk:Short bowel syndrome I'm having a discussion as to whether the type of total parenteral nutrition should be mentioned, given some recent case reports that different feeds cause less hepatic fibrosis. Comments invited. JFW | T@lk 22:07, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Surgery article

The Surgery article seems to be woefully inadequate in describing even the fundamentals of modern surgery. Is anybody working on expanding this article? H Padleckas 09:58, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree it could stand to be improved... go for it. MastCell ^Talk 15:48, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

After practically two months, nobody had made any improvements of substance to the Surgery article to address my above-mentioned concern. So as MastCell suggested, I became bold and "went for it." I substantially expanded the Surgery article to describe fundamental aspects of modern surgery. I would like to request a peer review to ensure the Surgery article is technically sound. If anybody wants to review Surgery and make any [beneficial] edits, please go ahead. H Padleckas 03:10, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Vaccine conroversy

There are substantial issues being introduced at Vaccine controversy and MMR vaccine. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:21, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Therapies for multiple sclerosis

I have improved a lot this article in the last month and I´m thinking of nominating it for good article. I have asked for a scientific peer review; but I would appreciate any comments on how to improve it both in contents and style. The discussion page for the peer review is: Wikipedia:Scientific peer review/Therapies for multiple sclerosis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Garrondo (talk • contribs)

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